Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[Swindle1984]

According to MAHQ, the Zaku II can run at 88km/h. An Exterminator EXT-4A is listed as having a top speed of 86km/h, which translates to a running speed of 8 hexes per turn. So a Zaku II can move, roughly, 5/8 in terms of Battletech gameplay. No idea how far it can jump.

So the Zaku II is pretty speedy for a heavy mech, but nothing special.

The Fireball, which is pretty speedy for a mech, is just barely faster than a Gelgoog's top running speed of 180km/h, and the Gelgoog weighs 73.3 tons just like the Zaku II. A Fireball ALM-7D light mech has a top running speed of 182.75km/h, and movement translating as 11/17.

The Dom is listed as weighing 81.8 tons (putting it in the weight category of an assault mech) and having a top running speed of 90km/h, and a hovering speed of 240km/h. So the Dom's hovering speed is fucking fast for Battletech. It's faster than a Savannah Master hovercraft, whose top speed of 216km/h and movement of 13/20 is ridiculously fast for Battletech.

So, yeah. Mobile Suits are going to be running circles around battlemechs of similar weight classes. Shit, even lighter, more mobile mechs will be hard-pressed to match Mobile Suits. Add in the M-particle jamming and I think they're going to be a little difficult for IS pilots to hit.




Add in that the major powers of the Inner Sphere are about to be shitting themselves over the Clan invasion, including one of Zeon's nearest neighbors, and I think that the Principality of Zeon is going to have the time they need to start production of FTL ships and more mobile suits. Assuming the Zeon leadership doesn't do anything do anything retarded until they're ready to expand beyond their system, nobody should even notice their presence until "OMGWTFBBQ there's insanely fast assault mechs fucking our shit up, where'd they come from?!"

[Zinegata]

The Zabis are known for terrible in-fighting though, so maintaining Zeon unity while they're winning like crazy is gonna be hard.

[Sinanju]

To be fair, most of the backstabbing seemed to be Gihren. Garma loved his father and his country, Dozle also seemed to have bought into the hype (and adored his younger brother), and Kycilia was...well...Kycilia. The most dastardly thing she did in the series was shoot Gihren after he murdered their father and a fair chunk of their fleet. And I think I would have shot Gihren in that situation. Gandhi probably would have shot him. Or at least considered it.

Now, Gihren was the one who seemed to be more concerned with getting Degwin out of the way than winning the war. And as long as Garma is alive, Gihren still has to answer to the old man.

[Swindle1984]

Would Char still be in position to betray Garma if the battle where he destroys Federation ships and becomes the Red Comet never happens? Actually, since there wouldn't be a battle for Char to sucker Garma into an ambush, he couldn't even do that, not the way he did in the series. If Char kills Garma, it would have to be assassination, at least until they start expanding outside their system and fighting IS troops.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Would Char still be in position to betray Garma if the battle where he destroys Federation ships and becomes the Red Comet never happens? Actually, since there wouldn't be a battle for Char to sucker Garma into an ambush, he couldn't even do that, not the way he did in the series. If Char kills Garma, it would have to be assassination, at least until they start expanding outside their system and fighting IS troops.

Char was still a highly decorated Lieutenant before the One Week War, having graduated Military Academy alongside Garma (I can't remember if Char graduated at the top of his class or behind Garma due to politics) being his best friend. IIRC Char genuinely liked Garma but he obviously believed in sin's of the father and I feel Char would have still maintained his friendship with Garma.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So since we've moved on to other topics including tanks, I thought I'd add this:


A. Captured Feddie design.
B. The Magella Attack was an early attempt at tank design.

Seeing as I can't read the text, it's up to someone else to translate.

[VF5SS]

Seeing as I can't read the text, it's up to someone else to translate.

There's an English version of that book, MS Era. It says "Zeon troops attack near Pozan, Poland. March 0079."

Since the entire book was illustrated by noted military Otaku, Yukata Izubuchi, I can assume that tank is one of his own unique designs intended to give Zeon a more normal looking tank.

[Commander 598]

Since the entire book was illustrated by noted military Otaku, Yukata Izubuchi, I can assume that tank is one of his own unique designs intended to give Zeon a more normal looking tank.

It's entirely possible that Zeon had other armor designs here and there. The Magella's designation of HT- along with it's size and weight seems rather indicative of it being a heavy tank. The Eins and this appear to be a medium design, also you may note the "Zeonic" stamped on it's turret , possibly indicating who built it. Possibly a captured Federation design reproduced by Zeonic. The Dabude was also a captured unbuilt Fed design, IIRC. The tank in the above image would seem to be a light tank as it appears comparable in size and more poorly armed than a Weasel APC variant.

[Balrog]

God damnit you just don't fucking read do you? We already fucking covered this.

Perhaps you should take my advice for Stark of paying attention to what the actual argument is and fucking apply it to yourself. I was referring to this picture, where they were "unable to pick between the heat of 12-hour burning tanks and active tanks." The point is they could still see heat sources! So if it was the same in the battle posted earlier, then the 08th MS team still should've seen the Gouf despite the dust obstruction, and none of the normal disadvantages (i.e. misidentification) would have applied. If it was worst than that, then your evidence?

And we saw in MS IGLOO shots where you could clearly make out Musais, but the light magnification image showed there was. It is not my responsibility to show that Zeon were using a standard strategy that had become the de facto primary method of waging combat.

So then every scene should be assumed to have visual hazing from M-jamming, even when we see no evidence of such, because...? I suppose we should also assume all Trek battles take place at ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers, even when both ships are clearly visible in the same scene, because it's happened a couple of times before? This is a fucking joke. If we see no evidence of visual hazing, then there is none, and excuses like the animators intended it but were too lazy to draw or some such nonsense is just that. We've never given arguments based on author's intent a pass here before, I see no reason to start doing so now.

As an aside, has Zeon ever deployed artillery units in large numbers, or was their ground strategy based completely around Mobile Suits?

[lord Martiya]

Char was still a highly decorated Lieutenant before the One Week War, having graduated Military Academy alongside Garma (I can't remember if Char graduated at the top of his class or behind Garma due to politics) being his best friend. IIRC Char genuinely liked Garma but he obviously believed in sin's of the father and I feel Char would have still maintained his friendship with Garma.

As far I know, Char graduated just behind Garma, and the two were very good friends.
About their friendship, Char himself admitted that Garma was a good friend to him, and explained his reasons to Garma as 'sorry, but I hate your father'. So, I'm with you, at least until you keep Sayla away from him (I think he didn't really consider killing Garma and Dozle until meeting his sister remembered him of his 'mission'). And given that Sayla won't be here...

[Stark]

So Balrog IS equating all interference, despite the persistence of m-particles and IR being disrupted by the mere presence of 3 suits at the start of the war. Later in the timeline, near any reactors or where a large amount of particles had pooled for whatever reason will be worse.

Regardless, it's irrelevant; one guy not using IR once obviously doesn't disprove the existence of IR sensors, and interference neatly provides an explanation.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Perhaps you should take my advice for Stark of paying attention to what the actual argument is and fucking apply it to yourself. I was referring to this picture, where they were "unable to pick between the heat of 12-hour burning tanks and active tanks." The point is they could still see heat sources! So if it was the same in the battle posted earlier, then the 08th MS team still should've seen the Gouf despite the dust obstruction, and none of the normal disadvantages (i.e. misidentification) would have applied. If it was worst than that, then your evidence?

An experienced pilot didn''t use her IR sensor, it's a major assault on a Zeon base. IE eavy Minovsky interference is to be expected.

So then every scene should be assumed to have visual hazing from M-jamming, even when we see no evidence of such, because...? I suppose we should also assume all Trek battles take place at ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers, even when both ships are clearly visible in the same scene, because it's happened a couple of times before? This is a fucking joke. If we see no evidence of visual hazing, then there is none, and excuses like the animators intended it but were too lazy to draw or some such nonsense is just that. We've never given arguments based on author's intent a pass here before, I see no reason to start doing so now.

BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO FUCKING LAZY AND THIS PARTICULAR VISUAL MEDIUM HAS LIMITS TO WHAT CAN BE SHOWN ON SCREEN IN THE NAME OF ENTERTAINMENT. Gundam is not Star Trek, this is readily apparent as I showed earlier by the fact that MS that look vaguely related are considered the exact same and in some cases MS that almost entirely different except for coloration and a vaguely similar head. You are also stating that we can not assume Minovsky interference despite that being the accepted tactic of all sides and there being every reason to be there.

To repeat Gundam is not Star Trek or Star Wars and the method of analyzing the two is completely different due to Sunrise's policy that what you see isn't necessarily what you get.

As an aside, has Zeon ever deployed artillery units in large numbers, or was their ground strategy based completely around Mobile Suits?

The majority of Zeon and Federation artillery are mounted on land battleships, MS with over the shoulder cannon like the MS-06K and the RGC-80, or MS with hand portable cannons like various MS-06 with Magella Attack cannons.

[Bottlestein]

[
There's an English version of that book, MS Era. It says "Zeon troops attack near Pozan, Poland. March 0079."

Why would the Zeon be attacking Pozan? Is Degwin trying to bring Gdansk under Prussia again?

[SAMAS]

It's a rule of warfare: Always attack Poland.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Battletech visuals have always been pretty much useless, at least were mechs are concerned. Have fun trying to make the size of the missile launchers (or autocannon while we're at it) in the pictures jive with the calibres given in the novels leave alone reality.
Let's take that picture of the Grasshopper Swindle posted. You're going to store a 100 LRMs of that size nevermind getting them to the launcher how, exactly?

Art is the lowest rung on the Battletech canon ladder. It's all pretty much useless for scaling purposes as you point out. Things depicted in artwork may not have happened at all and if they did they probably didn't happen the way they where depicted.

Again, how do explain a mechs space weapons range of 18km or the huge disconnect with RPG weapon ranges. How can a manpack LRM simultaneously have more range than a mech scale LRM and less range than a mech scale LRM against the same target?

Ok, its clear I was referring ENTIRELY to the "ranges are compressed for gameplay" statement, which has led many players to simply say that Mech combat take place at much longer ranges in the BTECH universe than that seen in the game...... even though precious little sources deal with this.

Ok, let me rephrase that. When playing the Battletech board game you can fire at and hit another mech standing many kilometers away with a bog standard Large Laser should you for some reason be playing Battletech in a hanger. The targeting penalty for doing so is quite high and there is some damage reduction. So, in order to have any chance at hitting the firing mech has to do things to improve their chances of hitting such as standing still (better chance to hit and be hit than even "moving" zero hexes) and bracing an arm. It also helps to just be that good of a shot, have some flavor of Direct Neural Interface, use the Actuator Enhancement System, or have a Targeting Computer.

As for the challenges you made, pssstt.... I have done so. Guess what? It even incorporates your mech dodging bit.

Besides the things that I agree with your model about. Didn't I point that out already? The fact that a mech's armor is incredibly thin (usually less than an inch) and is incredibly hard works a lot better at explaining why high mass low velocity impacts do much more damage than comparatively low mass and very high velocity impacts. I'm not disputing anything about having to group shot placement. I'd have to go over your model again in detail to say what I do and do not agree with you about.

I'm not, I'm asking for a source so I can dig it up and post it. Unfortunately, Merc Supp II is not a source I have. Do you have direct quotes?

I don't have it either, but I do have google.

MechWarriors taking part in the Games are expected to compete in a variety of sports "upgraded" to BattleMech scale, including baseball, football, hockey, and chess.

Ah. We're using different high end then. I'm referring to the 1s-10s fudge they used to get the hit small fighters ,which give us hundred kt range.

Even if it takes one second to hit your not getting a hundred kilotons from large NACs. I think some of the smaller NACs might be different, because of their longer range, but I still really don't see 100 kilotons being likely and certainly not the megatons you claimed originally.

A quick once over gives many times that number. I'll see if I can get you a complete TO&E. IIRC, 3 Regiments is about the size of a Star League RCT.

Errr, My bad. For some fucking reason, I was referring to a SLDF brigade.

Since, I said I'd clean up that Star League Division OOB, I forgot a regiment of conventional fighters.

I would point out however, that the Star League sourcebook does detail the TO&E, and refers to the Mech regiment as having 2 mech with one supporting infantry.

There are two mech brigades and one infantry brigade in a Star League Division, but the Order of Battle is a lot more involved than that.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Ok, its clear I was referring ENTIRELY to the "ranges are compressed for gameplay" statement, which has led many players to simply say that Mech combat take place at much longer ranges in the BTECH universe than that seen in the game...... even though precious little sources deal with this.

Ok, let me rephrase that. When playing the Battletech board game you can fire at and hit another mech standing many kilometers away with a bog standard Large Laser should you for some reason be playing Battletech in a hanger. The targeting penalty for doing so is quite high and there is some damage reduction. So, in order to have any chance at hitting the firing mech has to do things to improve their chances of hitting such as standing still (better chance to hit and be hit than even "moving" zero hexes) and bracing an arm. It also helps to just be that good of a shot, have some flavor of Direct Neural Interface, use the Actuator Enhancement System, or have a Targeting Computer.

Again, how do explain a mechs space weapons range of 18km or the huge disconnect with RPG weapon ranges. How can a manpack LRM simultaneously have more range than a mech scale LRM and less range than a mech scale LRM against the same target?

The answer is mech scale "ranges are compressed for gameplay."

[Bottlestein]

The Pozan picture that General Schatten posted brings up an interesting question:
How do the mobile suits aim? Do the targeting cameras on the gun send a wireless signal to the suit? Is there a datalink on the suits fingers and a corresponding one on the buttstock of the gun? Please don't tell me they use iron sights on the gun and look through it with the camera

I bring this up because the suit closest to us is carrying the gun at his "hip". This actually may be a good firing position for a MS.

Edit: Also, are the Zeon infantry carrying M-16's??

[Stark]

While Zakus have an 'eye' and their machineguns have a 'scope', pilots are seen aiming using typical automated weapon displays with video-feeds and electronic gunlaying. The Zaku MG has a side-grip that is used to brace the weapon for sustained fire, but it's horribly inaccurate during automatic fire regardless.

[Bottlestein]

While Zakus have an 'eye' and their machineguns have a 'scope', pilots are seen aiming using typical automated weapon displays with video-feeds and electronic gunlaying. The Zaku MG has a side-grip that is used to brace the weapon for sustained fire, but it's horribly inaccurate during automatic fire regardless.

I guess the gun "scope" might actually have a gun-laying radar in it.

[lord Martiya]

As an aside, has Zeon ever deployed artillery units in large numbers, or was their ground strategy based completely around Mobile Suits?

The answer is yes. In the series we don't see a lot of it because we are usually around the White Base, but we still saw some of their HEAVY artillery mounted on the landship models Dabude (saw during Operation Odessa as Zeon's last defensive line) and Gallop (whose most memorable use in the series was against the White Base as Ramba Ral vehicle), plus some Zaku using heavy artillery (mainly the Zaku bazooka, but I remember at least one Zaku using missile artillery against the White Base during Ramba Ral's soldiers last charge).
Other series set during the OYW showed us other Zeon's artillery like the Zaku Cannon from The 8th Mobile Suit Team, or even more traditional self-propelled artillery.

[Commander 598]

As an aside, has Zeon ever deployed artillery units in large numbers, or was their ground strategy based completely around Mobile Suits?

The answer is yes. In the series we don't see a lot of it because we are usually around the White Base, but we still saw some of their HEAVY artillery mounted on the landship models Dabude (saw during Operation Odessa as Zeon's last defensive line) and Gallop (whose most memorable use in the series was against the White Base as Ramba Ral vehicle), plus some Zaku using heavy artillery (mainly the Zaku bazooka, but I remember at least one Zaku using missile artillery against the White Base during Ramba Ral's soldiers last charge).
Other series set during the OYW showed us other Zeon's artillery like the Zaku Cannon from The 8th Mobile Suit Team, or even more traditional self-propelled artillery.

You can also find Weasel's outfitted with rocket batteries in the Zeonic Front intro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUWylPsF ... re=related

[Companion Cube]

If we're posting various Zeon armoured vehicles, here's a wheeled APC (which seems to be open-topped) from one of the manga:

[Ritterin Sophia]

Edit: Also, are the Zeon infantry carrying M-16's??

Possibly... or a rifle with the same design aesthetics.


This seems to show a Zeon Soldier with something based off of a Kalashnikov, whilst the Feddie clearly appears to have something similar to an M4 or a Colt Commando.

Whilst these look vaguely similar to a CETME or a G3.

[Commander 598]

Zeon, being Space Nazi's, are carrying Space Nazi Sturmgewehrs (Basically making them an AK clone) much in the same way that they carry Space Nazi MG-X clones. The Federation on the other hand is usually seen with what has been referred to in some unknown documentation as the Colt M72A1 4.85mm and is commonly depicted as a bullpup.

Best pic of both I have, even if it is from some game:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/ ... een012.jpg

(as well as evidence that the mono-eye exists behind some kind of glass)

[Ritterin Sophia]

That's from MS Gundam Operation Troy, a Battlefield-esque MS game that was supposed to be released in the US on the 360 but never was, those Bandai bastards... It was released in Japan. If ever there was a time to use Gundam to appeal to the American gamer it's an FPS. Now myself, Strak, and Fraud Prefect will never know the joys of killing each other in Zakus.