Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-07-13 05:51pm

I think we also need to appreciate how Quentin Beck and team were doing a lot to gaslight Peter and conning him into doing what they wanted. He's essentially a con man, and is using con man like psychological tricks to get Peter to trust him. Let's go through a few of them. A lot of this makes sense if you assume Beck studied Peter to get a sense of what kind of kid he is, and what would work on him.

One, he makes himself seem like a trustworthy person. Being the big hero and all that. Nick Fury verifies for him right off the bat to Peter.

Two, he sticks up for Peter when Peter is being down on himself and ingratiating himself at each opportunity. "Never apologize for being the smartest person in the room".

Three, he imitates a revered figure physically from Peter's past, so as to create an innate feeling of trustworthiness. Note how Quentin has the same hairstyle as Tony Stark until after he gets Edith, then he changes hairstyles to be slicked back. That's on purpose. He's trying to subconsciously remind Peter of Tony, and make Peter think of him as like Tony, without the judgement.

Four, he plays Devil's advocate for Peter, voicing his concerns about giving him Edith. This is so that Peter will, via reverse psychology, think that this is a great idea, as Quentin is obviously someone worthy if he's trying to have Peter keep the glasses.

Five, he makes subtle jabs at Peter that the glasses aren't right for him, and that he shouldn't wear them. This is so that Peter will not want to wear them, while not being openly insulted.

Six, let 'Nick Fury' do all the railroading to make Peter feel forced, so that he can come off as the nice guy who is actually looking out for him in contrast to Nick Fury forcing him to do all this.

Essentially, Quentin Beck's plan does a lot of gaslighting on Peter Parker to psychologically manipulate him. Everything else is a lot of preplanning with a special effects team and rehearsals. They were definitely working to bamboozle Peter Parker and Nick Fury from the beginning, and put a lot of work beforehand to make it work.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by Solauren » 2019-07-13 09:48pm

Actually, one has to wonder if Peter wasn't just a 'whole shit, jackpot' moment, that Beck was able to run with with a few days preparation.

Quite frankly, knowing about Peter and Edith, having them fall into his lap, and then gaslighting him so completely is even more impressive.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by LadyTevar » 2019-07-15 09:03pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-07-13 09:48pm
Actually, one has to wonder if Peter wasn't just a 'whole shit, jackpot' moment, that Beck was able to run with with a few days preparation.

Quite frankly, knowing about Peter and Edith, having them fall into his lap, and then gaslighting him so completely is even more impressive.
I'm wondering about that too. Fury was trying to get Peter in to give him the glasses. Beck was luckily in the Right Place, Right time.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by Elfdart » 2019-07-17 10:46pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-07-08 06:36pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-08 08:35am
Hmm. I was leaning toward not seeing this one, but I might reconsider now.
It's worth considering at least, though for full disclosure I tend to prefer the Marvel movies that, rather than use the vanilla superhero plot, tend to take other movie genres and adapt them into superhero movies. For instance, Winter Soldier is the conspiracy spy thriller with superheroes, and Ant-Man is the heist comedy with superheroes. Far From Home is, essentially, a high school romantic comedy with superheroes.
Winter Soldier is that much better if you think of it as a sequel to Three Days Of The Condor (though my mom got pissed off at the movie because she thinks it's against the law for Robert Redford to be a bad guy).
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by Vympel » 2019-07-18 03:50am

I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.

I thought it was ok. It wasn't shit, and there were a lot of good gags and I generally had a good time, but Homecoming was more enjoyable.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-21 10:06pm

Vympel wrote:
2019-07-18 03:50am
I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.
Well, I would consider Tony a marginally more trustworthy person to give that power to than Hydra. Marginally.

But that Tony would build it in the first place tells me that he learned absofuckinglutely nothing from Age of Ultron. Which is depressingly in-character for him.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-07-21 10:41pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-21 10:06pm
Vympel wrote:
2019-07-18 03:50am
I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.
Well, I would consider Tony a marginally more trustworthy person to give that power to than Hydra. Marginally.

But that Tony would build it in the first place tells me that he learned absofuckinglutely nothing from Age of Ultron. Which is depressingly in-character for him.
Well, even the Iron Man drones that became Ultron was an outgrowth of the remote control suits he used in Iron Man 3.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by ray245 » 2019-07-22 05:32am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-21 10:06pm
Vympel wrote:
2019-07-18 03:50am
I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.
Well, I would consider Tony a marginally more trustworthy person to give that power to than Hydra. Marginally.

But that Tony would build it in the first place tells me that he learned absofuckinglutely nothing from Age of Ultron. Which is depressingly in-character for him.
He had 5 years after Infinity war to build them. When he got back to Earth, remember how pissed he was with Cap? Thanos winning makes him think he was actually right to begin with. Amd during the 5 year gap, governments would be far too handicapped to say anything to Tony Stark.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-07-22 07:48am

Vympel wrote:
2019-07-18 03:50am
I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.
Apparently the only true moral and civic hero in the MCU was Cap, and now that he's retired there are no voices of dissent in a position to stop shit like that from happening. Which is rather terrifying.

I'm hoping trying to reign in authoritarianism is one of the driving themes of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by SolarpunkFan » 2019-07-22 03:52pm

The pissed off workers were in the wrong with killing/putting lives in danger, that much is for sure. But does anyone else feel just a tiny bit of sympathy for them? If I was working under an abusive boss who would belittle me, fire me for no good reason and then took sole credit for something I designed, I'd probably hate him viscerally too.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-22 09:49pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-07-22 07:48am
Vympel wrote:
2019-07-18 03:50am
I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.
Apparently the only true moral and civic hero in the MCU was Cap, and now that he's retired there are no voices of dissent in a position to stop shit like that from happening. Which is rather terrifying.

I'm hoping trying to reign in authoritarianism is one of the driving themes of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
Don't forget Natasha. She fought with him in Winter Soldier.

Red in her ledger my fucking ass. She earned her redemption time and again before they decided to throw her off a cliff. My personal head canon is that if she'd picked up Mjolnir, it would have been about as heavy as a feather in her hand (and no one would have been more surprised than her).
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-07-23 12:07am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-22 09:49pm
NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-07-22 07:48am
Vympel wrote:
2019-07-18 03:50am
I love it how Winter Solider had a totalitarian system of total surveillance and assassination and it was bad but Far From Home had one that was even more effective and scary but it was good because Tony Stark. Marvel movies have never had much of an ideology but Jesus Christ.
Apparently the only true moral and civic hero in the MCU was Cap, and now that he's retired there are no voices of dissent in a position to stop shit like that from happening. Which is rather terrifying.

I'm hoping trying to reign in authoritarianism is one of the driving themes of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
Don't forget Natasha. She fought with him in Winter Soldier.

Red in her ledger my fucking ass. She earned her redemption time and again before they decided to throw her off a cliff. My personal head canon is that if she'd picked up Mjolnir, it would have been about as heavy as a feather in her hand (and no one would have been more surprised than her).
You don't know her life. Maybe she did some dark shit against people trying to cross the Berlin Wall, like murdered the children of those trying to defect to West Germany and framed it on the US, dark shit.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-23 12:39am

Its pretty canon that she did some horrible things in her past (how culpable she is in that given that she was essentially a child soldier, from what we see of her training in the Red Room in AoU, is debatable). But I mean that the person she is now would be worthy of lifting the Hammer.

All the more so since a key component of being worthy seems to be willingness to sacrifice one's life for others (Thor regains the hammer and his powers in his first movie after sacrificing himself fighting Loki's goon to protect the humans). So is humility (Thor's arrogance leading to him being temporarily stripped of his powers in his first film).

IIRC, in AoU she was the only one of the team who didn't try to lift the hammer. This is likely because she is certain that she is unworthy. But it also means that she is the only member of the original team, besides Cap and Thor himself, who has not been proven unworthy.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-07-23 12:47am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-23 12:39am
Its pretty canon that she did some horrible things in her past (how culpable she is in that given that she was essentially a child soldier, from what we see of her training in the Red Room in AoU, is debatable). But I mean that the person she is now would be worthy of lifting the Hammer.

All the more so since a key component of being worthy seems to be willingness to sacrifice one's life for others (Thor regains the hammer and his powers in his first movie after sacrificing himself fighting Loki's goon to protect the humans). So is humility (Thor's arrogance leading to him being temporarily stripped of his powers in his first film).

IIRC, in AoU she was the only one of the team who didn't try to lift the hammer. This is likely because she is certain that she is unworthy. But it also means that she is the only member of the original team, besides Cap and Thor himself, who has not been proven unworthy.
Remember, Tony was willing to sacrifice himself in Avengers, and that sure as hell didn't make him worthy in Avengers 2. I assume that opposite of Tony's pride, Natasha's major failing that would make her unworthy would be her self doubt. Remember that Thor himself was going through a crisis of depression in Endgame, and needed help getting through that to think himself worthy of picking it up. Probably most of the team are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, including Barton. That doesn't mean that they're able to pick up the hammer.

And she was still in the Russian spy service well into adulthood until Barton got her to defect. Considering what all was needed to keep Russia afloat after the Soviet Union collapsed, and that's not including any powered people unique to the MCU, and we don't know the exact year she and Barton met, she's probably got a lot of blood on her hands well into adulthood. Not heroic 'defending Russia from aliens blood', but taking out this 'Russian family who the President deems inconvenient' blood.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-23 12:50am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-07-23 12:47am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-23 12:39am
Its pretty canon that she did some horrible things in her past (how culpable she is in that given that she was essentially a child soldier, from what we see of her training in the Red Room in AoU, is debatable). But I mean that the person she is now would be worthy of lifting the Hammer.

All the more so since a key component of being worthy seems to be willingness to sacrifice one's life for others (Thor regains the hammer and his powers in his first movie after sacrificing himself fighting Loki's goon to protect the humans). So is humility (Thor's arrogance leading to him being temporarily stripped of his powers in his first film).

IIRC, in AoU she was the only one of the team who didn't try to lift the hammer. This is likely because she is certain that she is unworthy. But it also means that she is the only member of the original team, besides Cap and Thor himself, who has not been proven unworthy.
Remember, Tony was willing to sacrifice himself in Avengers, and that sure as hell didn't make him worthy in Avengers 2. I assume that opposite of Tony's pride, Natasha's major failing that would make her unworthy would be her self doubt. Remember that Thor himself was going through a crisis of depression in Endgame, and needed help getting through that to think himself worthy of picking it up. Probably most of the team are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, including Barton. That doesn't mean that they're able to pick up the hammer.
Self-sacrifice alone clearly isn't enough, no. Humility is also evidently important, and Tony obviously fails hard on that score.

Natasha does not, although I had not considered that self-doubt might be a disqualifier. Though IIRC, Endgame actually weighs against that, as Thor was not sure he was worthy until after he successfully called it to him again (Thor's surprise and relief when the hammer comes to him and says "I'm still worthy" was actually one of the most touching moments of characterization in the film, for me).
And she was still in the Russian spy service well into adulthood until Barton got her to defect. Considering what all was needed to keep Russia afloat after the Soviet Union collapsed, and that's not including any powered people unique to the MCU, and we don't know the exact year she and Barton met, she's probably got a lot of blood on her hands well into adulthood. Not heroic 'defending Russia from aliens blood', but taking out this 'Russian family who the President deems inconvenient' blood.
Natasha Romanov, Agent of Putin? :)
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by Lost Soal » 2019-07-23 06:24am

SolarpunkFan wrote:
2019-07-22 03:52pm
The pissed off workers were in the wrong with killing/putting lives in danger, that much is for sure. But does anyone else feel just a tiny bit of sympathy for them? If I was working under an abusive boss who would belittle me, fire me for no good reason and then took sole credit for something I designed, I'd probably hate him viscerally too.
He fired Beck because he considered him unhinged, which considering he thought levelling half of London was necessary to prove his credentials, was a rather accurate diagnosis, and if you check the scene he doesn't take credit for the holographic technology. True he doesn't name the specific person either but Beck's two main gripes were the acronym and that he used it for a therapy session rather than Beck's "changing the world" scenario, whatever that might be.
Then there's William Riva who was belittled by Staine for not being as good as Stark, for which he apparently blames Stark.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-07-23 07:45am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-22 09:49pm

Don't forget Natasha. She fought with him in Winter Soldier.
Yeah, but she also was more than happy to just lurk in the shadows and get out while the getting was good. She had a spy's survival instincts. It was her proximity to Cap and his Aura of Kings that helped give her that final push.

Plus she's dead.

So notable MCU public figures that could influence the world by making a statement falls to Sam Wilson, who is more than worthy of the mantle of Captain America, but that doesn't mean the bigoted public will be worthy of him
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by Elfdart » 2019-07-27 01:28am

SolarpunkFan wrote:
2019-07-22 03:52pm
The pissed off workers were in the wrong with killing/putting lives in danger, that much is for sure. But does anyone else feel just a tiny bit of sympathy for them? If I was working under an abusive boss who would belittle me, fire me for no good reason and then took sole credit for something I designed, I'd probably hate him viscerally too.
I thought the same thing about the Vulture in Homecoming. They screwed him good and hard at the beginning.
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Re: Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers within)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-08-28 03:10pm

Here's HISHE's take:

It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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