Ahsoka Tano vs Rey (Skywalker?)- what makes a "Mary Sue"?

[The Romulan Republic]

So, I expect we're all familiar with the arguments: Rey is a "Mary Sue", overpowered, a bad character, etc. because she is too powerful and learns/succeeds too easily...

Now, I could point out the numerous times she fails (particularly in The Last Jedi), again. Or I could point out the similar rapid learning in the Force by Luke and especially Anakin (Yippee, I blew up a command ship half by accident when I was nine!). Again. Or I could point out that the "Mary Sue" label has become a term used by sexists to attack any female character who threatens their fragile manhood. Again. But all of that would just be rehashing old ground. But something just occurred to me, something which has me genuinely puzzled. While the double-standard between how Rey is treated and how male characters (both in Star Wars and in other franchises are treated) is often apparent to me, there is another double-standard which has been growing more and more obvious, and which throws a wrench into everything- and that double standard can be summed up in two words: Ahsoka Tano.

Now, from what I recall, Ahsoka was not a terribly well-liked character when she was created. There were fears about her being the "annoying kid", complaints about her being overpowered, about an apprentice for Anakin who had never been mentioned before being suddenly inserted between Episodes II and III. Certainly I had some of those concerns myself. But Ahsoka quickly won the love of the fandom, and in the last decade or so, I have seldom if ever heard her called a Mary Sue, or anything similar.

Now, you might say "But Ahsoka isn't as powerful as Rey". Well, actually, yeah she probably is, if not more so, at least by "Rebels", but it took her much longer to get there. But she certainly has her share of implausible victories:

-She's the never before heard of kid sidekick of the Chosen One, who becomes one of his closest friends despite never having been previously mentioned in canon.

-Even as a teenage padawan, she survived duels with the likes of Ventress and Grievous, who killed multiple fully-trained and experienced Jedi.

-In "Twilight of the Apprentice" and "The World Between Worlds", she personally dueled (in, time travel aside, the space of at most hours from her perspective): Multiple Inquisitors, Maul, Vader, and fucking Palpatine (indirectly via the Force). To my knowledge, her and Ezra's joint effort against Palpatine is the only time in current canon, other than Luke and Yoda, that someone fought Palpatine in any way and escaped with their life. During this confrontation, she was able to repel a sustained blast of Dark Side fire conjured by Sith sorcery from Palpatine. And to my knowledge she is the only canon character to have dueled Maul, Vader, and Palpatine, ever.

-And most striking of all, she literally had time travel introduced to the Star Wars franchise for the specific purpose of bringing her back from the dead.


Now, this is not an attack on Ahsoka. I like her and Rey as characters. But I'm curious as to why one enrages much of the fandom, and the other doesn't. Why one is widely considered a "Mary Sue" and the other isn't. One could conclude that it is simply that Ahsoka is not the main protagonist, and thus is less of a threat to male dominance, or that the animated shows are low profile enough not to attract as much attention from Alt. Reich/Kremlin trolls/bots. And that's probably part of it. But I feel like there's more to it. If you're someone who hates Rey or considers her overpowered/a "Mary Sue", but doesn't feel that way about Ahsoka, I'd like to know why.

[Batman]

I think you're underestimating the 'she's just a cartoon character' aspect of it. Not that I have any problem with either of them, if anything Snips is my favourite Clone Wars character and I liked how she was brought into Rebels despite the time travel aspects. But Clone Wars/Rebels were mostly watched by hardcore fans. Rey was exposed to a much larger audience by virtue of being in the mainline Star Wars movies

[The Romulan Republic]

I think you're underestimating the 'she's just a cartoon character' aspect of it. Not that I have any problem with either of them, if anything Snips is my favourite Clone Wars character and I liked how she was brought into Rebels despite the time travel aspects. But Clone Wars/Rebels were mostly watched by hardcore fans. Rey was exposed to a much larger audience by virtue of being in the mainline Star Wars movies

But, see, that just makes me more confused. Because normally you'd expect the "hard core" audience to be more savagely critical of a new character than the general public/"casual" fans, not less.

[Batman]

Thing is the 'casual' fans may well not know Snips 'exists' and bringing in new characters was pretty much inevitable for Clone Wars OR the Sequel Trilogy, and that it in general and Ahsoka in particular were done well probably didn't hurt. And I think a lot of the hatred for Rey isn't because she's new (which is pretty much inevitable what with a 30 year time jump) is coming from the white/male supremacy crowd

[FaxModem1]

Part of it is the logic of their characters. Ahsoka was assumed to be some sort of casualty of the Clone Wars, and was Jedi temple trained. Or some other awful fate that made it to why no one talked about her. She's someone who definitely has spent more than a week learning the force and how to apply it. Rey mastered it in less time than it takes most people to learn how to master using a remote control on a new TV.

That can irk people for obvious reasons .

[Batman]

I guess that much is true. Also Ahsoka was actively involved in a lot of the Clone Wars so she had a lot of battlefield experience while Rey basically went from zero to hero in no time flat

[The Romulan Republic]

I guess that much is true. Also Ahsoka was actively involved in a lot of the Clone Wars so she had a lot of battlefield experience while Rey basically went from zero to hero in no time flat

In fairness to Rey, she spent upwards of a decade fending for herself on planet raider-infested-shit hole. That wouldn't teach her stuff like tactics or leadership of large units (coincidentally, something she's never demonstrated), but it'll teach you everything you need to know about defending oneself one on one or in small groups.

Honestly, one got the impression that fighting off an attempting mugging was a fairly ordinary occurance for her.

Ahsoka was pretty powerful/lucky from the get-go too, but I suppose it could partly be that Ahsoka had more screen-time for the audience to grow to gradually love her, where as most peoples' awareness of Rey is pretty much entirely dependent on two two-hour films.

Makes me wonder if giving Rey a TV show would improve her image.

[KraytKing]

They were both bad characters, as was young Anakin. You keep providing these other examples proving why it's okay for Rey to be how she is, but those other examples are just as bad or worse. Clone Wars was a TV show for small children and it perplexes me that anyone other than that audience, or even certain members of that audience, could think it was worth the energy it took to air.

[NeoGoomba]

Clone Wars may have started out pretty crummy, I admit, but it was dope. And it was most certainly NOT aimed primarily for "small children"

[The Romulan Republic]

They were both bad characters, as was young Anakin. You keep providing these other examples proving why it's okay for Rey to be how she is, but those other examples are just as bad or worse.

Nice straw man.

The point is not simply "to prove that its okay for Rey to be how she is" (as though the existence of a fictional character you don't like is some moral outrage). It is to ask why one is received differently in the fandom than the other.

Did you even read my OP?

Clone Wars was a TV show for small children and it perplexes me that anyone other than that audience, or even certain members of that audience, could think it was worth the energy it took to air.

Um, no, it wasn't?

Please don't tell me you one of the people still stupid enough to believe "Animation means its just for kids". Or did you only watch the (admittedly shitty) movie and not the show?

[Civil War Man]

As someone who hasn't watched any of the animated Star Wars stuff, so I can't speak at all about the specifics of the Ahsoka character, I just want to chime in that I find a lot of problems with dismissing something as being "for kids." First, it implies that all stories can be neatly segregated into "for kids" and "for adults," as well as implying that there is something inherently shameful about an adult legitimately enjoying something in the "for kids" category.

It calls to mind the old CS Lewis quote about "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

[Jub]

The simple explanation is that these shows came out and aired at a time when Twitter wasn't as popular. Combine that with the fact that far fewer people ever watched the animated shows than watched even something like Solo and you get your answer. Some people probably did complain, it just never gained enough traction to be a thing the way critique of Rey has.

[KraytKing]

I watched every episode in the show. I enjoyed it as a ten year old, but less and less as the seasons went on. Since it went off, I've returned to watch favorite episodes, and I have been astonished at how bad it actually was, not to mention outraged at some of the stuff they retcon. I haven't watched the movie since I was myself a small child, and I enjoyed it then. I no longer own it, and I see no reason to acquire it given some of the clips I've watched.

My mistake, TRR, for ascribing motives to you. You usually defend Rey in these sorts of arguments, and I assumed this was another attempt. I shouldn't have done that.

[Solauren]

The reason that Rey is seen as a Mary-Sue is the sheer speed she acquired her powers and skills compared to everyone else we've ever seen in the franchise outside of a video game character. She goes from 'nothing' to being able to use mind tricks, force stealth of sorts, and telekinesis after being affected by 1 mind trick. (Force Unleashed). I make no comments on her duel with Kylo Ren, as he was seriously injured and tired.

Asohka, as a Padawan was only special in her dueling abilities. That can be explained by the fact she was being trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, probably two of the best duelist in the Jedi Order. Her stuff during Rebels, she's had 15+ years to prep for a duel with Vader and Palpatine, and as she was no longer a member of the Jedi Order, probably didn't feel any reason to restrain herself.

Now, that all said, I always felt that there was going to be a big reveal during 'The Last Jedi', like Rey is an ex-Padawan of Luke's that had her memories repressed to hide her from Kylo, possibly Kylo's twin, etc, that would have nicely explained her sudden powers. That would shift her from 'Mary-Sue' to 'Trojan Horse'. Unfortunately, they changed directors....

[Batman]

Um-Force Unleashed is a video game. The movie that happened in was The Force Awakens, Episode VII

[The Romulan Republic]

I watched every episode in the show. I enjoyed it as a ten year old, but less and less as the seasons went on. Since it went off, I've returned to watch favorite episodes, and I have been astonished at how bad it actually was, not to mention outraged at some of the stuff they retcon. I haven't watched the movie since I was myself a small child, and I enjoyed it then. I no longer own it, and I see no reason to acquire it given some of the clips I've watched.

My mistake, TRR, for ascribing motives to you. You usually defend Rey in these sorts of arguments, and I assumed this was another attempt. I shouldn't have done that.

Thank you.

Its true I do defend Rey, because while the character isn't flawless (but then, what is?), I think she gets way more crap than she deserves, and some of it is very blatantly misogynist (note, I said some, not all).

But there's a separate question here which I don't want to get lost, which is that Ahsoka parallels Rey in many ways, but has largely escaped the same backlash. Maybe Rey will in time, maybe not. But for now, I'm curious to understand why that distinction exists.

The reason that Rey is seen as a Mary-Sue is the sheer speed she acquired her powers and skills compared to everyone else we've ever seen in the franchise outside of a video game character. She goes from 'nothing' to being able to use mind tricks, force stealth of sorts, and telekinesis after being affected by 1 mind trick. (Force Unleashed). I make no comments on her duel with Kylo Ren, as he was seriously injured and tired.

Asohka, as a Padawan was only special in her dueling abilities. That can be explained by the fact she was being trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, probably two of the best duelist in the Jedi Order. Her stuff during Rebels, she's had 15+ years to prep for a duel with Vader and Palpatine, and as she was no longer a member of the Jedi Order, probably didn't feel any reason to restrain herself.

Now, that all said, I always felt that there was going to be a big reveal during 'The Last Jedi', like Rey is an ex-Padawan of Luke's that had her memories repressed to hide her from Kylo, possibly Kylo's twin, etc, that would have nicely explained her sudden powers. That would shift her from 'Mary-Sue' to 'Trojan Horse'. Unfortunately, they changed directors....

I felt like they were setting something like that up in TFA, but there's no way to be sure unless the people involved behind the scenes speak up on the subject.

But reg. Ahsoka, keep in mind that she was able to take on multiple Magnaguards (Jedi-killer droids) in her first story, as a 14 year old who had only just become Anakin's padawan.

And, sure, she's only really skilled at dueling* (well, she also seems to do well as a teacher/leader for younger Jedi, on the occassions she's put into that role). But that's largely true of Rey too. Her abilities are much more geared toward combat than the more subtle, arcane uses of the Force, and even then, she is notably lacking in her ability to use, or especially to counter, combat telekinisis, a point I've frequently commented on. I see her as the Jedi version of all street smarts, no book smarts, basically. Practical experience and natural affinity/good instincts for the more gritty aspects of the Force, but lack of formal training, and it shows.


*I actually have a theory that Ahsoka is basically a saber-dueling savant- only middling Force power, but just a natural at hand-to-hand.

[Lord Insanity]

I think you are way overthinking this.

Ahsoka was introduced to the audience as someone that spent their whole life being trained as a Jedi and was just promoted to active combat field training.

Rey (like Luke and then Anakin) was introduced as someone that didn't even know they were force sensitive. Both Luke and Anakin only ever managed to perform passive (dumb luck) skills until years later after training. Rey magically performs active force skills with no training at all. All they would have had to do is show Rey effortlessly using telekinesis in the opening looting scene thus establishing that she was already an active force user and most of the complaints of "Mary-Sue" would be gone. The rest of the movie could have been almost identical but would have been better for it.

[Jub]

I think you are way overthinking this.

Ahsoka was introduced to the audience as someone that spent their whole life being trained as a Jedi and was just promoted to active combat field training.

Rey (like Luke and then Anakin) was introduced as someone that didn't even know they were force sensitive. Both Luke and Anakin only ever managed to perform passive (dumb luck) skills until years later after training. Rey magically performs active force skills with no training at all. All they would have had to do is show Rey effortlessly using telekinesis in the opening looting scene thus establishing that she was already an active force user and most of the complaints of "Mary-Sue" would be gone. The rest of the movie could have been almost identical but would have been better for it.

Pretty much this.

Like so much of the ST a little setup and forethought would have gone a long way. It's the neglected details that cause these new movies to fail and Rey being seen as she is completely the fault of this lack of detailed world building.

Before Rey, the largest feat we saw from an untrained force user was Anakin destroying the control ship, but by this point, we'd already established him as an expert pod racer. He also had the help of R2-D2 to even make it there to make the shot at all. It wasn't pure skill with the force but rather gentle guidance and a little 'luck' that allowed him to do what he did.

[KraytKing]

Before Rey, the largest feat we saw from an untrained force user was Anakin destroying the control ship, but by this point, we'd already established him as an expert pod racer. He also had the help of R2-D2 to even make it there to make the shot at all. It wasn't pure skill with the force but rather gentle guidance and a little 'luck' that allowed him to do what he did.

I agree with everything else you said, but this is why I went off on a tangent about Clone Wars. You're using young Anakin as a supporting example here, but that shot Anakin made should be criticized as roundly as anything Rey does. You can't lean on this. We shouldn't be using Anakin and Ahsoka as baselines, they were bad.

[FaxModem1]

Rey, in the context of pop culture, reminds me a lot of Korra from The Legend of Korra. Aang's journey is one of mastering all these skills, while Korra was shown to have mastered these skills, but still having to work on her spirituality, her maturing as a person, and her actions as a person in a changing world.To avoid retreading the same ground, they show that both Korra is a natural savant at using the force, and went through years of professional training to become the Avatar. Korra learns a lot of intricacies going on with the world she's in, and how she can't be a bull in a china shop.

Ahsoka seems to be going through similar things. We know she's temple trained. The thing that makes her odd is that One of my favorite plotlines in Clone wars is having Padme show Ahsoka how a lot of Separatists are people too, and she needs to realize that they're not all Count Dooku. It shows her maturing, and how while she is a warrior, she is still a child learning to know the world.

Rey jumped those steps, without a fig leaf reason for why she did so. And the lessons she's being taught aren't valid because her teacher is going through his own arc on why he's incorrect about the force. Rey doesn't grow spiritually, sadly. Why does the dark side not affect her? Why is she the exception? What is she learning along the way? I don't think we've seen that to as much of an extent as we should. Aside from knowing that Luke is full of shit when it comes to forgetting the past.

[Jub]

I agree with everything else you said, but this is why I went off on a tangent about Clone Wars. You're using young Anakin as a supporting example here, but that shot Anakin made should be criticized as roundly as anything Rey does. You can't lean on this. We shouldn't be using Anakin and Ahsoka as baselines, they were bad.

That's where you're wrong. Anakin was already established before he made the shot, Rey flying the Falcon after just finding it had zero set up. Anakin's big feat was letting R2-D2 fly him to the central ship and having the force guide him to where he could make a shot. Even that feat was set up by the pod racing scene showing him as a savant level pilot and that was set up with us being shown how strong in the force Anakin is.

There are more steps leading up to what Anakin did. That doesn't change that 'Yippy!' is cringy as hell and the scene was iffy but it does change the context.

[Avrjoe]

I would agree that Ahsoka has better character pacing. I think the last Jedi suffers from picking up where the Force Awakens left off. The film should have had a time skip as the other movies of the main Saga had two or three years of training would feel less world breaking than two or three days.

[RogueIce]

Now, from what I recall, Ahsoka was not a terribly well-liked character when she was created. There were fears about her being the "annoying kid", complaints about her being overpowered, about an apprentice for Anakin who had never been mentioned before being suddenly inserted between Episodes II and III. Certainly I had some of those concerns myself. But Ahsoka quickly won the love of the fandom, and in the last decade or so, I have seldom if ever heard her called a Mary Sue, or anything similar.

What you said about Ahsoka's start is true, very true. She was not well liked to begin with. Eventually, with enough character growth, she's now beloved. So what's the difference?

The bottom line, I think, is that where Ahsoka had five seasons of The Clone Wars to grow as a character; Rey has only had two movies. And...she hasn't grown much? She got some Force training I guess and followed Luke around a bunch but aside from being better skilled with the Force, how is she that different from the scavenger girl we met?

Part of it is just opportunities, in the sense that Ahsoka had much more screen time to grow as a character than Rey has. But part of it is a focus that's lacking: Dave Filoni set out to grow and mature Ahsoka as a person and character as TCW went on. Aside from making Rey "The Hero" they haven't done that so much with her? Probably doesn't help that Rey has had two movies with two different directors and obviously two different visions, whereas Ahsoka had Dave Filoni pretty much guiding her character from the beginning.

I don't think it's as much the evil Trump supporters/misogynists/Russian boogeymen/whatever that you're making it out to be - though I'm sure there's some of that mixed in there - but a lot of circumstances involved. Ahsoka has had more time and opportunity to grow into the beloved character that she is. Rey, unfortunately, has not.

[The Romulan Republic]

Now, from what I recall, Ahsoka was not a terribly well-liked character when she was created. There were fears about her being the "annoying kid", complaints about her being overpowered, about an apprentice for Anakin who had never been mentioned before being suddenly inserted between Episodes II and III. Certainly I had some of those concerns myself. But Ahsoka quickly won the love of the fandom, and in the last decade or so, I have seldom if ever heard her called a Mary Sue, or anything similar.

What you said about Ahsoka's start is true, very true. She was not well liked to begin with. Eventually, with enough character growth, she's now beloved. So what's the difference?

The bottom line, I think, is that where Ahsoka had five seasons of The Clone Wars to grow as a character; Rey has only had two movies. And...she hasn't grown much? She got some Force training I guess and followed Luke around a bunch but aside from being better skilled with the Force, how is she that different from the scavenger girl we met?

Hard to answer. TLJ shows her tempted by the Dark Side, and struggling with her identity and abandonment issues, before seemingly overcoming them in the conclusion. But we'll have to wait to IX to see if that growth sticks, or if Abrams reverts her to TFA Rey, or takes her in another direction entirely.

I do think that Ahsoka simply having more screen time to develop her helped, yes.

Part of it is just opportunities, in the sense that Ahsoka had much more screen time to grow as a character than Rey has. But part of it is a focus that's lacking: Dave Filoni set out to grow and mature Ahsoka as a person and character as TCW went on. Aside from making Rey "The Hero" they haven't done that so much with her? Probably doesn't help that Rey has had two movies with two different directors and obviously two different visions, whereas Ahsoka had Dave Filoni pretty much guiding her character from the beginning.

See above reg. Rey's development.

My take on the multiple directors issue is that they should have either had one for the trilogy, or stuck to a different one for each film. Either could have worked. But the way it is now, going back to Abrams, is likely to leave TLJ sticking out like a sore thumb, and the whole arc (what there is of it) having zig-zagged. At least that's my fear.

I don't think it's as much the evil Trump supporters/misogynists/Russian boogeymen/whatever that you're making it out to be - though I'm sure there's some of that mixed in there - but a lot of circumstances involved. Ahsoka has had more time and opportunity to grow into the beloved character that she is. Rey, unfortunately, has not.

There is absolutely a large, active Alt. Reich hate campaign on-line against women and minorities in media in general (both from overseas and homegrown, and both politically-orchestrated as well as random individuals). That's not really in dispute to anyone who isn't willfully burying their head in the sand. The problem is that (in part because these fuckers are really good at dog whistles that convey their bigoted intent without outright saying it, and then claiming victim-hood if anyone tries to call them on it), its often hard to parse out the bigots from the people who just didn't personally like the film/character for whatever reason. And that's probably another benefit for Ahsoka- there were plenty of bigots and trolls back then, but from what I can recall, overtly political internet hate campaigns against media weren't such a thing back then.

I do think Rey would benefit from more development- but I also think Rey is much more high-profile, and thus a more high-profile target, so any move to give her more screen-time would be met with a stronger backlash, though it might be welcomed by those fans who sincerely feel that she is underdeveloped as a character.

I do think they should make Rey a regular on an animated series. Actually another comparison comes to mind- Anakin. The Clone Wars did a LOT to rehabilitate his depiction in the Prequels with the fandom, as well.

[Gandalf]

I agree with everything else you said, but this is why I went off on a tangent about Clone Wars. You're using young Anakin as a supporting example here, but that shot Anakin made should be criticized as roundly as anything Rey does. You can't lean on this. We shouldn't be using Anakin and Ahsoka as baselines, they were bad.

Why does there need to be a baseline at all? Evidently the Force moves people and things at its own will. Some people get a bit more Force attention than others. It was the will of the Force that Anakin did what he did, and that Rey did what she did.