WoW: Warlords of Draenor

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Kuja
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Kuja »

Civil War Man wrote:Yeah, that does fall in line with what I've heard. Apparently during Vanilla and even BC one of the biggest barriers to progression was less the difficulty of the bosses and more the existence of other guilds. Namely, guilds regularly got stuck at certain tiers because guilds that were further along in progression would poach their most promising members to fill out gaps in their roster, because it was easier to recruit geared players from the previous tier than it was to start re-running all the previous tiers to gear up a new player or an alt. So a Naxx guild might recruit a Warrior from a guild doing AQ so they have enough tanks for 4 Horsemen, causing the AQ guild to do the same with a BWL guild, which then does it to a MC guild, and now the MC guild has to gear up a new player from scratch to replace the tank that left.
There were basically two parts to every raid - logistics and tactics.

Early WoW raids were heavy on the logistics: getting 40 people together on time, farming the avalanche of mats for consumables, crafting the gear necessary to live through fights. It was a time-consuming, soul-crushing process. However the actual mechanics of the boss fights were fairly simple: healers, cleanse the raid. Offtank, pull this add away. Rogues, interrupt. Etc. In fact, a lot of the difficultly in raids came from the fact that you had such a large group to manage, hence the use of mods like decursive for clearing Lucifron's raid-wide debuff.

And yes, because of the size of raids and the tiered system, poaching was horrendous. Feeder guilds were destined to run Molten Core and Onyxia forever, because once a progression guild got into BWL and AQ, nobody wanted to go back to MC and Ony to gear up newcomers and alts. It was worst for warriors, because for most of vanilla warriors were the only class that could tank reliably.

In BC (and especially Wrath), raiding shifted strongly from logistics to tactics. Resistance gear became less important and eventually dried up. Consumables became more generalized and easier to farm. Raids became smaller. But individual bosses became harder. Teron Gorefiend and Kael'thas demanded a raid pay attention to their mechanics. If you were asleep at the wheel and you got ghosted, your raid wiped. Something like Mimiron's Firefighter mode couldn't possibly have existed in vanilla wow - the punishing mechanics would have played havoc with 40-man groups.

Poaching was still horrendous in BC though, especially in the early days when attunements were still in place. Raid attunements in BC were a goddamn nightmare, demanding each and every player character complete the proper quest chains, in order, working their way upwards through BCs raid tiers. As a result, if you were a couple men short on Kael, you had to find someone with the attunements already done (and willing to lock themselves to your raid) or you called it for the night. Raid guilds poached hard because nobody wanted to go run old raids just to get new guys attuned.

Wrath did away with a lot of poaching thanks to 10-man raids and the badge system, and frankly Wrath had some of the hardest bosses in wow history. 3-drake Sarth (before zerging became possible) the aforementioned Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, and Heroic Santa Lichy were goddamned bone-crushing. Not to mention drake achievement runs. But because entry-level stuff was made easier (like the Naxx revamp, or Lord Marrowgar as the intro to ICC) people began to piss and moan about the days when "raids were hard." Except most of them really weren't all that hard, apart from the job of cat-herding an entire guild to do what you wanted.

Then Cataclysm hit and you maniacs you blew it up but that's another rant.
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Darth Yan
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

So Thrall Spoiler
kills garrosh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1XzskcP0sU

It's more full circle. They Spoiler
fight at the same spot Garrosh and Thrall met in the future.
I found it oddly fitting in a way.

Also, the Draenei are getting plenty of focus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhLfqTy0HjA

Yrel the Draenei is shaping up to be an interesting character.

Orgrim Spoiler
dies, after protesting the murder of innocents Blackhand kills him.
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Darth Yan
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

The insights of some of the forum members were surprisingly insightful. Thrall failed to give Garrosh proper context about his dad (namely that he was an asshole as well as a hero, that he did redeem himself but did bad things, he put too much pressure on Garrosh to live up to his dad's legacy, and he even gave Garrosh war chief position when Garrosh himself asked him not too (Garrosh actually tried to refuse it first). However, Garrosh still made the choices, he still failed to heed the advisors thrall left him, he still ultimately bears responsibility for his destiny
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Kuja wrote:Then Cataclysm hit and you maniacs you blew it up but that's another rant.
Yea, early cata was weird. If you could get past Magmaw, you basically had the chops to clear up to Nef (and then your raid broke up because there's just too many mechanics/phases). But Magmaw was easy to cheese, I knew of guilds clearing him in quest greens, but even overgeared pugs couldn't understand the one simple mechanic they had to deal with (worms) and failing that mechanic usually cost the entire raid.

A lot of guys bitch about welfare gear, but they don't understand that a shift to mechanics fully gates content under skill, rather than a time investment. I walked into ICC with only one piece of gear under 251 (my weapon) and more than a few pieces of 264 (what ICC 10m dropped). I was essentially overgeared for the instance before I even stepped in to it, so was most of my raid team of Justice Point heroes. Did we get a free LK kill? Could we even get past Putricide? No.

I get that this was end of expansion stuff, but had that been a Vanilla raid, or even some BC ones: we could have just walked in a face-rolled it.
Darth Yan wrote:So Thrall Spoiler
kills garrosh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1XzskcP0sU
Spoiler
So, we kick down the doors to Org, beat Gary's ass, Thrall goes to kill steal, King Chin stops him, then Thrall gets to go all Mano-a-Mano and shit like some bad western. You know, the technology does exist to put a character into cutscenes.
I think it's funny WoW won't let players be actual heroes outside of dialog, but a game like FFXIV has no problem with it. We finally cleared Levi EX last night and it's my party standing around doing the fist-pumps and shit, not our faction leads. FFXIV goes over the top because you're always the big damn hero, but WoW goes the complete opposite direction.
Yrel the Draenei is shaping up to be an interesting character.
I just kind of laughed at that scene. It's like teenager fanfiction with moderately better written dialog. "Imma throw my hammer at him." And Blizz gives her a Bres, but she doesn't Bubble his attack? Terrible Paladin.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

I'm glad the draenei are being fleshed out. her and Durotan double teaming blackhand was pretty cool
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Darth Yan wrote:I'm glad the draenei are being fleshed out. her and Durotan double teaming blackhand was pretty cool
I'm just kind of being a dick. That said, it was nice of him to basically swing over her head, requiring only an inch of movement to avoid getting hit, if even. It just plays out like the Dooku fight combined with Darth Maul's incredibly laughable reaction times right before Obi-Wan cuts him in half. The scene is just so cliche, I felt like I've seen it a hundred times. Which makes sense because it was written by Blizzard. Another issue is I feel like Blizzard's animating has become increasingly.... floaty. The actors and their movements don't feel like that have any weight to them. This is a pretty stark contrast, at least IMO, compared to their earlier work.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

The thing with Garrosh is that, while he is ultimately responsible for the choices he made, Thrall deserves a lot of blame for setting him on the path he took, and it's something that Thrall blatantly and repeatedly does not acknowledge. The only mistake he seems to admit making with regard to Garrosh is trusting him. It could make for an interesting character arc, with him descending into deeper and deeper denial to avoid having to question his starry-eyed reverence of many of the Orcs from Warcraft I and II, and how that may have bled into Orcish culture and contributed to Garrosh and younger Orcs making many of the same mistakes. Unfortunately, the narrative keeps treating him like his shit doesn't stink, and character interpretations like that are basically inferred by fans trying to make some sense of the story.

It's interesting to look at how unpopular many of the most popular characters from Warcraft III have become. Tyrande and Malfurion are now despised by many Night Elf fans, particularly since Blizzard has been trying to paint Malfurion as an equal ruler of Night Elf society to the extreme detriment of Tyrande's previous characterization, while simultaneously having him act as a neutral character, which makes Malfurion one of the only supposed faction leaders who seems to hold the faction he's a part of in utter contempt. Fans of Jaina have been alienated in Mists due to her character being changed from someone who avoids conflict and tries to find peaceful solutions into a strawman warmonger, to the point where there are now probably betting pools as to whether she or Sylvanas will end up as a raid boss first. Sylvanas, meanwhile, has been garnering much hate from Alliance players by acting openly as a villain while the writers give half-hearted excuses in order to explain why none of the other major characters seem to care. Thrall, of course, has lost a lot of goodwill with his massive amount of overexposure in Cataclysm, blatantly hijacking the Fandral Staghelm story arc that had been brewing since Vanilla and upstaging the players in the Dragon Soul raid.

Seems like the only main characters from that game that haven't seen a significant drop in popularity are Illidan and Arthas.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Terralthra »

TheFeniX wrote:
Yrel the Draenei is shaping up to be an interesting character.
I just kind of laughed at that scene. It's like teenager fanfiction with moderately better written dialog. "Imma throw my hammer at him." And Blizz gives her a Bres, but she doesn't Bubble his attack? Terrible Paladin.
It was still on CD. She's got her bubble up and fading as we first cut to her.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

A lot of people on the forums acknowledge that too, and it could be built upon. Garrosh actually came across as pitiable in the scene. The way he yells "YOU FAILED ME!!!!!!" kind of implies that he does blame Thrall and resents Thrall leaving him in charge.

Another poster compared it to Revan and Malak. Malak ultimately choose to continue the dark path, but Revan was the one who set him on the path.

Thrall also has admitted some degree of fault as well (he acknowledged that he appointed Garrosh when he wasn't ready).

I posted elsewhere that Burning Crusade should have been the Orcs facing their past. Finding out more about what happened on Draenor, as well as the fact that the Legion played only a partial role in the corruption of the orcs, and the full extent of the Draenei genocide would have had potential; the orcs would finally have to face the darker side of their history, own up to their role in their destruction, and maybe even finally give a legitimate formal apology to the draenei and the people of the world + take steps to reform their culture more
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

You know it's a sad day when Dreamworks can push the You failed me, father angle better than you can. But Thrall obviously learned from the Jecht school of fatherly love.
Terralthra wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:
Yrel the Draenei is shaping up to be an interesting character.
I just kind of laughed at that scene. It's like teenager fanfiction with moderately better written dialog. "Imma throw my hammer at him." And Blizz gives her a Bres, but she doesn't Bubble his attack? Terrible Paladin.
It was still on CD. She's got her bubble up and fading as we first cut to her.
I thought dieing Draenei dude used some ability that doesn't exist to bubble her. Could have been BoP, but she had no hat. BoP means fancy hats! Wait, what was that ability they changed back in LK where a pally could sacrifice themselves to make a player immune? Salvation, until they changed it? Pretty sure it wasn't HoSacrifice, because that would have made sense. I could be wrong though. Still, 2 ret pallies against an Arms War: no wonder they got stomped.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by White Haven »

Divine Intervention is the ability you're looking for. ...Man, now I just remember one particularly memorable Gruul wipe back in BC where the offtank accidentally DI'd the main tank. So the off-tank was dead, and the main tank was standing in a bubble and out of combat.

...oops.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

Terralthra wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:
Yrel the Draenei is shaping up to be an interesting character.
I just kind of laughed at that scene. It's like teenager fanfiction with moderately better written dialog. "Imma throw my hammer at him." And Blizz gives her a Bres, but she doesn't Bubble his attack? Terrible Paladin.
It was still on CD. She's got her bubble up and fading as we first cut to her.
Yeah, that was more Maraad DI'ing her.

I would say that she didn't bubble so she could still cast Avenging Wrath, but I'm pretty sure they got rid of Forbearance a long time ago (and even if they didn't, I don't think wings causes it anymore).
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

White Haven wrote:Divine Intervention is the ability you're looking for. ...Man, now I just remember one particularly memorable Gruul wipe back in BC where the offtank accidentally DI'd the main tank. So the off-tank was dead, and the main tank was standing in a bubble and out of combat.
I loved it when I'd pop it on a healer for wipe recovery and they would start ressing the raid, while standing within aggro radius of the boss once he respawned.

Recently, I've had a few times I wanted to pop Sacrifice on the OT on a fight like Protectors because the OT was either under-geared or terrible. When you have HoS on CTRL-3 and BoP on CTRL-4, sometimes there's hilarity to be had.
Civil War Man wrote:I would say that she didn't bubble so she could still cast Avenging Wrath, but I'm pretty sure they got rid of Forbearance a long time ago (and even if they didn't, I don't think wings causes it anymore).
Last I played, the only things that debuff Forbearance were LoH (if cast on yourself), BoP, and Bubble. Nothing stops wings, except when it's instantly mass dispelled or stolen.... Pretty sure I read Forbearance is gone in WoD, but I could be mistaken. I think the main thrust of it's application was to balance Arenas, but since LoH was removed in them ages ago, it's really a moot point.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

That's the thing. Garrosh was poorly written since Blizzard didn't really know what to do. They were trying to mellow him out in Cataclysm but when that didn't work they just went "fuck it" and made him a full on villain. Even now they admit they went too far in the other direction.

Even more sadly is the fact that Blizzard could acknowledge that Thrall shares some of the blame. He put way too much pressure on Garrosh's shoulders in the misguided belief that it would sober him. He failed to give him proper context about his dad (he told him what Grom did right rather than telling him the virtues and the warts.)

Back in 2012 with the release of Tides of War Christie Golden said this about Garrosh
Christie Golden wrote: Garrosh's personality in game and out has done a lot of shifting back and forth. We see him get a lot darker in Tides. How did you go about developing his character?

"I think Garrosh has, at his core, a weak personality. He was very hostile about his father and ashamed of his father, and it took Thrall to say, "Hey, look, you know your dad did some pretty amazing things despite everything." He had to get that validation externally. He also had to prove himself in battle externally. And now he is surrounding himself with some very bad and dangerous advisors, externally.

Because I think that at the core, he doesn't really know. He wants to do well. He wants to preserve the orcs and their pride and their history. But I think he is actually a rather malleable person whose opinions can change. He doesn't have a strong core.

I think the main difference -- Jaina has a very strong core. And when adversity and disaster and personal torment rip her down to nothing but that core, that core is still intact. It's hurt, but it's intact. And Garrosh doesn't really have a strong core. So what he believes kind of changes depending on what the situation is and who's talking. And I think that does not a good strong leader make."[23]
It was also around this time he started to hang with the blackrock orcs (who continued to worship demons until Rend Blackhand died.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

That doesn't track for me. Garrosh might have daddy issues, but saying he has a weak personality? Said personalilty that couldn't be corrupted by Y'shaarj? One that lead to him personally taking charge and leading numerous assaults in Pandaland, across the entire expansion? I had to follow that ugly mother-fucker all around Pandaland and I'm an Alliance player. Not buying it: Garrosh may have had dickheads feeding him lies, but saying he has a weak personality, when he's been an asshole as far back an LK, doesn't cut it. I made the link as a joke to Kung Fu Pandaria, but Garrosh does kind of fit into the same mold as Tai Lung and no one would accuse him of having a weak personality. He's just an asshole. An asshole with a lot of power and no morals, aside from "Might makes right and Loktar or something," to stop him from using it.

Thrall should have stopped/put down Garrosh just like Shi-fu should have done with Tai Lung. Rain Man had to actually deal with the consequences of his failure because Dreamworks can shit out a compelling story once in a blue moon. Thrall just sticks with "not my problem," because Blizzard considers him too fucking awesome for criticism.
I think the main difference -- Jaina has a very strong core. And when adversity and disaster and personal torment rip her down to nothing but that core, that core is still intact. It's hurt, but it's intact.
That doesn't even make any sense.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

It's more he needed to prove himself and wanted validation. Since he earned success as a warrior he gravitated towards that.

They did try to humanize Garrosh around Cataclysm (Heart of War, Garrosh's short story and the scene where he kills Krom'gar). Unfortunately they went full opposite because they didn't think people cared. And they admitted again that they went to far in the villain direction.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

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TheFeniX wrote:
I think the main difference -- Jaina has a very strong core. And when adversity and disaster and personal torment rip her down to nothing but that core, that core is still intact. It's hurt, but it's intact.
That doesn't even make any sense.
I think that was written before the bell nonsense.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

Yeah. Tides of War was August 2012.

The sad thing is Blizzard DOES have the potential to learn. Moira has mellowed from being an evil bitch to a much more reasonable figure in the Blood in the Snow campaign, and they explicitly wrote curse of the worgen the way they did because they were aware just how much people were angry that varian got the canon kill for onyxia.

Heart of the Swarm also had Kerrigan as a far more complex character than she was in Brood War
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by bilateralrope »

Blizzard is automating character undeletion. With some conditions:
Characters under level 10 and Death Knights at level 55 are not eligible to be undeleted.
Characters between level 10 and level 29 will no longer be recoverable after 90 days.
Characters between level 30 and 49 will no longer be recoverable after 120 days.
All other characters level 50 and above are eligible to be undeleted at any time.
Please keep in mind you will only be able to use the undelete option once every 30 days.
As I don't play WoW I have to ask: What is so special about Death Knights at level 55 ?
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

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bilateralrope wrote:Blizzard is automating character undeletion. With some conditions:
Characters under level 10 and Death Knights at level 55 are not eligible to be undeleted.
Characters between level 10 and level 29 will no longer be recoverable after 90 days.
Characters between level 30 and 49 will no longer be recoverable after 120 days.
All other characters level 50 and above are eligible to be undeleted at any time.
Please keep in mind you will only be able to use the undelete option once every 30 days.
As I don't play WoW I have to ask: What is so special about Death Knights at level 55 ?
Death Knights are created at level 55 (Hero class) so a 55 DK is the same as a new but never used character.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Darth Yan wrote:It's more he needed to prove himself and wanted validation. Since he earned success as a warrior he gravitated towards that.
Yea, we could be talking about Tai Lung and I couldn't tell the difference. Garrosh may have been one of the worst choices for Warchief, but damned if he wasn't effective at getting the Orcs riled up.
They did try to humanize Garrosh around Cataclysm (Heart of War, Garrosh's short story and the scene where he kills Krom'gar). Unfortunately they went full opposite because they didn't think people cared. And they admitted again that they went to far in the villain direction.
I couldn't watch that because it's a Horde quest: I had to go to Youtube. That's the way it pretty much should be. But being such a driving force for a faction lead, and ending up overshadowing an entire expansion: that's kind of the opposite of "weak personality."
Darth Yan wrote:The sad thing is Blizzard DOES have the potential to learn. Moira has mellowed from being an evil bitch to a much more reasonable figure in the Blood in the Snow campaign, and they explicitly wrote curse of the worgen the way they did because they were aware just how much people were angry that varian got the canon kill for onyxia.
It's not really about "learning." It's about them constantly showing one thing, but telling the playerbase "nah guys, you're reading to much into it." So, they come up with 1 or 2 examples of a character not being a douche or bring up some backstory where a "not-douche" was douchy, and all the sudden I'm supposed to ignore what I've been seeing up to that point. Sometimes assholes do nice things and vice-versa, because people are complicated, but Blizzard doesn't believe that. And this is why their characters are generally flat and uninteresting. The guy who writes Lor'themar doesn't seem to buy into this, which is why Captain Eyepatch comes off as an actual person: not a caricature.

He's a fighter, a leader, a nobleman, extremely arrogant, yet respectful when respect is offered to him and will put aside his personal grudges and back down from a confrontation because it's the right thing for the Horde, the Belfs, and Azeroth as a whole. But what really drives it home is no one at Blizzard is like "HEY GUIZ, we totally made a character do something different, doesn't this completely change who he is? Aren't we the best writers EVAR!?"

What chaps my ass is that WoW is all about the heroes of Warcraft. Varian, Thrall, Garrosh, etc all matter and I (the player character) do not really exist except as some unnamed hero. Yet, even with this, the WoW team constantly focuses on anything but their development. And when they do, you get stupid shit like "OMG so super-special, please let me have your babies" Thrall or "Hey, we don't know what to do with Garrosh, so let's just make him a raid boss." It's always extremes with Blizzard and that shit gets boring.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Lord Revan »

I think "weak" might bit of wrong word to use about Garrosh' personality but he seems to have same personality flaw as his daddy that he sees not doing everything by himself as being weak, thus seeing co-operation of any kind as weak, basically he is unable to see anything but brute personal strength and anything that relies on something else is "weak" to him.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Which we knew all along and Thrall still put him in charge. And this is where it really irks me because it was a perfect time for Blizzard to sit back and let the playerbase determine who was more right or wrong. Garrosh obviously must be stopped because you can't let him roll over the entirety of Azeroth and kill and enslave the non-orc population. But would a unified Azeroth be under more threat from the next "Ancient Evil" Wrathion talked about?

The culmination of Thrall vs Garrosh, even in the cutscene itself leaves a lot of you could debate. Is Garrosh really a tragic figure? Does Thrall have responsibility in this and is his comment just trying to absolve himself of guilt? Yet everything I've heard about any of this from Blizzard is: "Thrall is right, Garrosh is wrong. Please buy WoD." This is because they generally fail miserably at in-depth characterization and ambiguity.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darth Yan »

I brought up curse of the worgen because it was a case of trying not to have the big main characters involved in everything. Blizzard was aware that people felt cheated so they wrote curse in such a way that adventurers could put themselves in it.

Some interpreted it as the Revan Malak from Kotor. Revan started Malak down the path, but Malak chose to continue it. War Crimes by Christie Golden actually addresses Thrall's actions at one point (he's a witness and Tyrande and Baine both grill him about his choices.)

I'd have preferred if they kept the later Cataclysm development. Where he dislikes the Alliance but has enough honor not to resort to mass murder.

Also from what I heard the Alliance Twilight Highlands intro was originally supposed to have an epic battle....but than it got replaced with slapstick.

HOTS Kerrigan was a lot deeper actually. She's unsure of herself, than she's obsessed with revenge before finally maturing into an actual hero who won't just slaughter innocents on the altar of expediency. And she and Jim are both able to accept they won't be together. The final cutscene shows them saying thank you, my pleasure, and than smiling as they part forever. It averts the "gets the girl ending" without being dark.
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Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Darth Yan wrote:I brought up curse of the worgen because it was a case of trying not to have the big main characters involved in everything. Blizzard was aware that people felt cheated so they wrote curse in such a way that adventurers could put themselves in it.
Unless you're talking about something else, I find pointing to the comic books as lame for trying to explain something totally separate from what is established in the game. If Blizzard wants to pull the story out of their RPG, fine: but it's poor form in their part. An MMO is a perfect area to tell an entire story, but we don't get that in WoW when FFXIV pulls it off just fine and even SWTOR can handle it.

I think a whole lot of this stems from Blizzard removing a lot of the "me" content in WoW. Class quests for specific abilities and mounts. Interaction with their trainers, etc. They've done nothing to replace that, instead focusing on the grind for shinies.

Not every story has to have a moral or a point, or push the story along. But nearly every interaction we have with faction leads in WoW has them telling us something, not showing it. I keep turning to the scene between Jaina and Lor'themar as a good way to show us something, but they had to fuck even that up by Awesome McPandaman jumping in and start yelling what anyone with 2 brain-cells to rub together could have already figured out. How much better would that scene have been without him, and both leads just figuring it out on their own because they aren't morons? A lot.

Now, the questing structure in FFXIV is way off from WoW, but there was one particular Main Scenario quest that was on the surface just a time-wasting fetch quest. A bunch of your dudes get blowed up by The Evil Empire.™ Resources are already short, so you have to load the bodies into a wagon (which is also cool because a very small humanoid you befriended is one of the bodies and it takes half the interaction time to pick up that body as it does the human ones, it's the little things). When you're done loading, the wagon hand comments about "just more dead bodies, been seeing a lot of those" (or something to that effect). Except these aren't just any bodies. They're your friends and heroes of Ezorea ambushed and murdered.

And that's it. You turn the quest in and start trying to put shit back together. FFXIV generally avoids telling me how and what to think and it's pretty refreshing. WoW clubs you over the head with shit. Those scenes where it doesn't, the development team is on stand-by to tell you you're stupid for thinking anything but what they consider a scene or plotline to mean.
Some interpreted it as the Revan Malak from Kotor. Revan started Malak down the path, but Malak chose to continue it. War Crimes by Christie Golden actually addresses Thrall's actions at one point (he's a witness and Tyrande and Baine both grill him about his choices.)
Yea, Malak just picked up where Revan left off and stuck with the general Sith bit of "kill the master, then kill everyone else... for EVIL." But he still had his own motivations, otherwise he would have floundered without Revan instead of continuing to cripple the Republic forces. He was an asshole, but an effective one.
I'd have preferred if they kept the later Cataclysm development. Where he dislikes the Alliance but has enough honor not to resort to mass murder.
I would prefer more faction lead interaction that doesn't actually affect anything. That also isn't the culmination of some quest line or raid content. Minfillia's popularity in FFXIV might have a lot to do with her design (sexy butt window and boob jiggle) and fake/real English accent. But I assume a lot of it has to do with the character having a lot of interaction with the PC outside of "More ancient evils, go do that hero thing you do and click on me afterward for shinies."
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