Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Majin Gojira » 2020-06-01 10:01pm

Zaune wrote:
2020-06-01 09:29pm
Well, so much for him withdrawing to the White House panic room and staying out of the goddamn way.
At first, I thought he was an authoritarian strongman, but now I realize it's much worse. He's a wannabe authoritarian strongman.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-06-01 10:02pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-01 09:23pm


While not specifically about violence against the press, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada did issue a statement at the start of this condemning the killing of Floyd and anti-Black racism in both countries. It wasn't as strong as might have been hoped for, but still seen as a departure from the usual behaviour of a Canadian PM towards unrest in the United States:
Well that beats the UK response from Dominic Raab. Credit where credit is due so I will give some kudos to Trudeau, but acknowledge its not strong at the same time.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-06-01 10:13pm

ABC 57
Active duty troops deploying to Washington DC
By: CNN
Posted: Jun 1, 2020 6:06 PM EDT
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About 9 military style trucks have rolled through the White House complex and onto Pennsylvania Ave on Monday. They\'re all filled with National Guard troops. Credit: CNN
By Barbara Starr and Ryan Browne, CNN
(CNN) -- An active duty military police battalion consisting of some 200 to 250 military personnel is now in the process of deploying to Washington, DC, and could be in the nation's capital as soon as tonight, three US defense officials tell CNN.

The troops are expected to provide security but not perform law enforcement duties such as the arrest and detention of protesters, according to the officials.

Trump is making the move as cities across the country struggle to deal with protests, looting and rioting that began last week after the death of George Floyd, an unarmed black man who was being taken into police custody in Minneapolis. In the days since, as protests have spread throughout the country, officials and lawmakers have claimed extremist groups on the right and left are using the upheaval to foment violence and further unrest.

Two defense officials said the troops will be coming from a unit at Ft. Bragg in North Carolina.

Because of Washington's unique status, the deployment can be authorized by federal officials rather than the city's authorities.

The Pentagon did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Trump signaled the move in a call with governors earlier Monday in which he promised a demonstration of "total domination" in Washington, as he railed at the state leaders for looking "weak" and pushed them to call in the National Guard to "dominate" protesters and wished there was an "occupying force" in cities across America.

"Washington, they had large groups, very large groups. ... But Washington was under great control," Trump said. "But we're going to have it under much more control. We're pouring in -- we're going to pull in thousands of people."

"We're going to clamp down very, very strong," Trump said. "The word is dominate. If you don't dominate your city and your state, they're gonna walk away with you. And we're doing it in Washington, in DC, we're going to do something that people haven't seen before. ... But we're going to have total domination."

The-CNN-Wire
Active Duty US Army troops deploying to our nations capital.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-01 10:20pm

If they're deploying them just in DC, and in a support role rather than directly as law enforcement, then it sounds like its in the same category as when they deployed troops to the border at Trump's behest- likely the military making as limited (if unfortunately still inflamatory) a deployment as possible to placate Trump, without doing what he really wants, which is to turn troops lose on unarmed protesters.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-01 11:04pm

CPB (Customs and Border Patrol) is being deployed in Washington as well. From AOC's Facebook account:

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Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wrote:CBP is the largest law enforcement agency in the country, & it very well may be one of the most dangerous.

They do NOT have oversight. Not even the measures local PDs have.

Their culture is toxic, they have 0 accountability, and Congress gave them a blank check. This is dangerous.

Last year CBP officers circulated mockup images of my violent rape ahead of my visit to their facilities.

They hung framed photos of officers aiming guns at people on the walls.

Later that day, they refused to protect members of Congress when armed Trump supporters were outside.
They're widely-known for a culture of rape, and for being probably the most corrupt law enforcement agency in America, as well as for their role in enforcing Trump's hideous border policy. If any group in the country deserves to be considered Trump's Gestapo, its them.

And now they're to be set loose on the streets of DC.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-06-02 12:13am

Mr Friendly Guy :mrgreen: :D
THE CCP IS MORE FREE THAN THE USA.

HONG KONG PROTESTING FOR 9 MONTHS WITH NO MILITARY INTERVENTION

AFTER 3 DAYS THE USA DEPLOYS THE US MILITARY AGAINST US CITIZENS.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-02 12:18am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-06-02 12:13am
Mr Friendly Guy :mrgreen: :D
THE CCP IS MORE FREE THAN THE USA.

HONG KONG PROTESTING FOR 9 MONTHS WITH NO MILITARY INTERVENTION

AFTER 3 DAYS THE USA DEPLOYS THE US MILITARY AGAINST US CITIZENS.
No military, but plenty of police brutality and arrests of dissidents.

But this thread isn't about Hong Kong. There's no need or reason to compare who's worse. Suffice to say that both are hideous, and cannot be excused or justified.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-06-02 01:17am

In regards to the initial autopsy which tried to have wave away Floyd's death with the fact he had preexisting medical condition.
I don't really get how people can argue that unless you already decided the cop is good and then are just looking for an excuse to exonerate the police. I mean think of it this way, if you knock grandma over who has osteoporosis and she breaks her hip and dies, can you blame her pre-existing osteoporosis and argue that if you used the same force to an MMA fighter, he will just laugh at you, thus you weren't responsible?
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 01:30am

It's a suspect line of argument anyway. I don't know about the states but here in Australia, we have laws that expressly say 'oh, gran had an eggshell skull and that might be part of why she died when you punched her? Too fucking bad, you punched her, that's what killed her, you're responsible.'

So while I was asleep apparently the police in Philadelphia kettled a mass of people on a bridge overpass and then repeatedly bombarded them with teargas, while Trump had a peaceful protest violently attacked for the sake of a photo op.

America is a failed state.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by PainRack » 2020-06-02 01:37am

How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
Barack Obama
Barack Obama
Jun 1 · 4 min read


Photo by Xena Goldman

https://medium.com/@BarackObama/how-to- ... a209806067
As millions of people across the country take to the streets and raise their voices in response to the killing of George Floyd and the ongoing problem of unequal justice, many people have reached out asking how we can sustain momentum to bring about real change.
Ultimately, it’s going to be up to a new generation of activists to shape strategies that best fit the times. But I believe there are some basic lessons to draw from past efforts that are worth remembering.
First, the waves of protests across the country represent a genuine and legitimate frustration over a decades-long failure to reform police practices and the broader criminal justice system in the United States. The overwhelming majority of participants have been peaceful, courageous, responsible, and inspiring. They deserve our respect and support, not condemnation — something that police in cities like Camden and Flint have commendably understood.
On the other hand, the small minority of folks who’ve resorted to violence in various forms, whether out of genuine anger or mere opportunism, are putting innocent people at risk, compounding the destruction of neighborhoods that are often already short on services and investment and detracting from the larger cause. I saw an elderly black woman being interviewed today in tears because the only grocery store in her neighborhood had been trashed. If history is any guide, that store may take years to come back. So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. If we want our criminal justice system, and American society at large, to operate on a higher ethical code, then we have to model that code ourselves.
Second, I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness, to put a spotlight on injustice, and to make the powers that be uncomfortable; in fact, throughout American history, it’s often only been in response to protests and civil disobedience that the political system has even paid attention to marginalized communities. But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices — and in a democracy, that only happens when we elect government officials who are responsive to our demands.

It’s mayors and county executives that appoint most police chiefs and negotiate collective bargaining agreements with police unions. It’s district attorneys and state’s attorneys that decide whether or not to investigate and ultimately charge those involved in police misconduct. Those are all elected positions. In some places, police review boards with the power to monitor police conduct are elected as well. Unfortunately, voter turnout in these local races is usually pitifully low, especially among young people — which makes no sense given the direct impact these offices have on social justice issues, not to mention the fact that who wins and who loses those seats is often determined by just a few thousand, or even a few hundred, votes.
So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both. We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform.
Finally, the more specific we can make demands for criminal justice and police reform, the harder it will be for elected officials to just offer lip service to the cause and then fall back into business as usual once protests have gone away. The content of that reform agenda will be different for various communities. A big city may need one set of reforms; a rural community may need another. Some agencies will require wholesale rehabilitation; others should make minor improvements. Every law enforcement agency should have clear policies, including an independent body that conducts investigations of alleged misconduct. Tailoring reforms for each community will require local activists and organizations to do their research and educate fellow citizens in their community on what strategies work best.
But as a starting point, here’s a report and toolkit developed by the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and based on the work of the Task Force on 21st Century Policing that I formed when I was in the White House. And if you’re interested in taking concrete action, we’ve also created a dedicated site at the Obama Foundation to aggregate and direct you to useful resources and organizations who’ve been fighting the good fight at the local and national levels for years.
I recognize that these past few months have been hard and dispiriting — that the fear, sorrow, uncertainty, and hardship of a pandemic have been compounded by tragic reminders that prejudice and inequality still shape so much of American life. But watching the heightened activism of young people in recent weeks, of every race and every station, makes me hopeful. If, going forward, we can channel our justifiable anger into peaceful, sustained, and effective action, then this moment can be a real turning point in our nation’s long journey to live up to our highest ideals.
Let’s get to work.
45 refuses to address the nation, so President Obama did instead.

In it he calls for protest to also be translated into increased activism, where in a functioning democracy, voting in local politicians, protesting and being active to keep them responsive to community concern is needed for momentum to turn into change....


It's the two step forward, one step back speech again. It's true.... But God, why does it have to be so fucking hard.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 01:41am

It's a speech that has been received with no small amount of rage because Obama had the opportunity to help resolve a lot of this shit and completely failed to do so, and in some respects, actually worsened the situation with platitudes that masked inaction and covered over the issues.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Gandalf » 2020-06-02 01:44am

loomer wrote:
2020-06-02 01:30am
It's a suspect line of argument anyway. I don't know about the states but here in Australia, we have laws that expressly say 'oh, gran had an eggshell skull and that might be part of why she died when you punched her? Too fucking bad, you punched her, that's what killed her, you're responsible.'

So while I was asleep apparently the police in Philadelphia kettled a mass of people on a bridge overpass and then repeatedly bombarded them with teargas, while Trump had a peaceful protest violently attacked for the sake of a photo op.

America is a failed state.
I guess the budget for heavy equipment at a bunch of police departments is about to go way the fuck up. Whatever the next protest is, it won't be allowed to last this long.
Orwell wrote:But always--do not forget this, Winston--always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever.'
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Gandalf » 2020-06-02 01:47am

loomer wrote:
2020-06-02 01:41am
It's a speech that has been received with no small amount of rage because Obama had the opportunity to help resolve a lot of this shit and completely failed to do so, and in some respects, actually worsened the situation with platitudes that masked inaction and covered over the issues.
Indeed. I remember when Henry Gates was arrested for homeowning while black, and Obama's big contribution was... him and the cop having a beer.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

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- George Carlin

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-02 01:58am

Gandalf wrote:
2020-06-02 01:44am
loomer wrote:
2020-06-02 01:30am
It's a suspect line of argument anyway. I don't know about the states but here in Australia, we have laws that expressly say 'oh, gran had an eggshell skull and that might be part of why she died when you punched her? Too fucking bad, you punched her, that's what killed her, you're responsible.'

So while I was asleep apparently the police in Philadelphia kettled a mass of people on a bridge overpass and then repeatedly bombarded them with teargas, while Trump had a peaceful protest violently attacked for the sake of a photo op.

America is a failed state.
I guess the budget for heavy equipment at a bunch of police departments is about to go way the fuck up. Whatever the next protest is, it won't be allowed to last this long.
Orwell wrote:But always--do not forget this, Winston--always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever.'
There are times that the country has changed for the better. The fall of slavery was one, albeit perhaps not the most comforting example since it cost over 600,000 lives to do it. The enfranchisement of women was another. The fact that homosexuality is now accepted by the majority of Americans is a third.

I won't deny its bleak. I won't judge those who despair. But I don't think this fight is unwinnable. At least not if you define winning as "Significant reforms are made, and life generally gets better for a while." There is no winning, or losing, in the sense that everything is decided once and for all. There will always be new injustices and new battles to be fought.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 02:13am

Gwen Snyder was at the philadelphia repression. According to her it was peaceful and the police opened fire on people unprovoked, prior to the curfew being declared, and began using rubber bullets on medics assisting the fallen.

At this point I'm not going to call it a police action but just a straight up repression.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-02 02:58am

Going to share this before I sign off, its a pretty good article from a mainstream outlet discussing the different forms of "violence", and the different groups involved in the unrest. It rightly puts the bulk of the blame for violence on the police, and takes a sympathetic view of looting, while drawing a distinction between looting and physical violence against people (though acknowledging that those distinctions can be complicated). It condemns violence against individuals, which I agree with in nearly all circumstances, but, again, puts the primary blame for violence in this unrest squarely on the police, and to a lesser extent outside influence. It also goes deeper than most of the coverage I've read, addressing other forms of systemic violence, and is the first coverage I've seen which draws a connection between that and George Floyd's underlying health conditions. Excellent reporting all-told.

https://theguardian.com/commentisfree/2 ... -brutality
The word “violence” is going to be used a lot to describe the events in US cities over the weekend and all this week. So it’s going to be important to be clear about who is violent and what violence is. Property destruction and harming human beings are profoundly different actions, and with a few exceptions (seemingly interlopers in the protests) virtually all the violence visited on human beings during this round of civil unrest across the US has been inflicted by police.

This began with the death of George Floyd in public in direct violation of what the Minneapolis police department manual says about chokeholds. He told officers he couldn’t breathe and begged for his life. What is particularly stunning about the brutality of the police across the country is that they seem to expect impunity. They do not serve the public or keep the peace; they serve themselves.

Nevertheless, much of the finger-wagging has been about property destruction, and it is dismaying to see that some are more upset about broken glass than public killing – or rather that they seem to believe society ought to rest on a foundation of stable property relations, not human rights and justice.

The distinction between damaging or destroying human beings and inanimate objects matters. But it’s not simple. People trapped inside a burning building break down the doors to escape; an estranged husband with a restraining order breaks down a door to further terrorise his ex-wife. The same actions mean different things in different situations. Martin Luther King famously called riots “the voice of the unheard” – and as the outcry of people who have tried absolutely everything else for centuries, property damage means something very different from merely malicious or recreational destruction. When they riot, the black people most impacted by police brutality and by four centuries of poverty, dehumanisation and deprivation of basic rights and equality, are more like people trapped inside that burning house trying to break out.

There is no easy way to distinguish between ardent white supporters of a black uprising and black bloc-style white people who revel in property destruction, taunting the police and escalating situations (before often slipping away before the police crack down). They are anti-authoritarians opposed to police brutality and the overreach of the state, and should not be confused with the rightwing authoritarians who many fear will use the pandemonium as cover for their own agenda, which could include creating more chaos.

What these authoritarians and anti-authoritarians often have in common is an enthusiasm for violence for its own sake and a belief that it is revolutionary. Most successful recent revolutions have, in fact, been largely nonviolent, and those that were violent have tended more toward highly disciplined guerrillas in the mountains than window-smashers on the high street.

It’s important to note, of course, that property destruction can hurt the very constituencies that riots and uprisings are supposed to speak for. The loss of small minority-owned businesses, social centres and local amenities further impoverishes communities. Here, it’s worth noting that I’ve read accounts of residents of Minneapolis trying to put out fires and otherwise protect property in their own neighbourhoods, only to be attacked by police as they did so.

A Minneapolis nursery school teacher told me that earlier this week: “My brothers-in-law in Minneapolis were participating in the hosing-down of an active fire in the lot next to their house (a bank). These were community members keeping the fire from reaching their homes. Fire and police were not on the scene until many hours later, being occupied elsewhere … But the MPD police did stop by at one point in the middle of the night to throw teargas into the midst of the neighbours doing this work, and to shoot rubber bullets at the guys spraying the fire down.”

A dozen years ago, when I wrote a book about civil society response to urban disaster, I learned the term “elite panic”. It describes how the authorities often respond in an emergency – not by protecting and aiding the public but by seeking to control and repress us, protecting nothing but their own power and position. Police across the country seem to be doing this and more, demonstrating the same impunity the killers of George Floyd seemed to be counting upon.

One of the stunning things about Saturday night’s police riot was the direct and intentional violence against journalists across the nation. Reporters have been arrested while working, thrown to the ground and pepper-sprayed, hit with rubber bullets and fired on while broadcasting. Photojournalist Linda Tirado is now blind in one eye after being shot by police. This is not only an assault on individuals but on the role of a free press in keeping the government accountable and the public informed.

The story of activist violence is often used to justify police violence, but damage to property is not a justification for wholesale violence against children, passersby, journalists, protesters, or anyone at all. It is the police who should have lost their legitimacy, over and over, after the many individual killings from Eric Garner to Walter Scott to Breonna Taylor to George Floyd. And after reckless, entitled, out-of-control violence in police riots like that on Saturday night. Perhaps the point of their action this week is that they don’t need legitimacy, just power.

There’s one more kind of violence to talk about, and that’s structural violence. That’s the way that institutions and societies are organised to oppress a group of people, and for black Americans, that’s included slavery, the long terrorism of Jim Crow and lynching, voter suppression from the 19th century to the present, redlining (denying or charging more for necessary services) and subprime mortgages, discrimination in housing, education, and employment and far more.

Right now, several forms of structural violence that particularly matter are the chronic stress and lack of access to healthcare, housing issues, and work situations that have made black Americans die of Covid-19 at far higher rates than other races.

The autopsy report cited in the arrest warrant for the man charged with George Floyd’s murder suggested his death was due to hypertension and a heart condition; it was, in fact, caused by police brutality and violation of civil rights, and his health issues, if true, might be just part of that same spectrum of structural violence. The police have been agents of this all along, and when they come out with teargas and clubs to suppress uprisings, they announce that this is who they are and who they want to be: violence in service of violence.

• Rebecca Solnit is a Guardian US columnist
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 03:16am

Do not participate in the blackout with silence. Unless your day off social media is going to be spent actually protesting, supporting protestors, or organizing the next protest, it will accomplish nothing for the uprising. It is not solidarity. Absolutely don't post a black square and spam out a hashtag with literally meaningless noise.

Instead, participate by using the platforms available to you to share useful information and boost Black voices.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 05:10am

"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 05:54am

Police attempts to steal the symbolism of kneeling continues. This is not solidarity - do not be confused by it. It's a PR stunt. Those same cops are still there when the tide shifts later that night and the brutality begins. They aren't reining in the men and women beside them, they aren't refusing to fire on protestors, they aren't refusing to arrest journalists. They aren't releasing arrested protestors from the cells and refusing to be complicit in the repression of the uprising.

They are posing for photographs and trying to redirect anger. Nothing more.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-02 06:02am

Majin Gojira wrote:
2020-06-01 10:01pm
Zaune wrote:
2020-06-01 09:29pm
Well, so much for him withdrawing to the White House panic room and staying out of the goddamn way.
At first, I thought he was an authoritarian strongman, but now I realize it's much worse. He's a wannabe authoritarian strongman.
Being an actual authoritarian strongman will require actual work.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by madd0ct0r » 2020-06-02 06:47am

loomer wrote:
2020-06-02 05:54am
Police attempts to steal the symbolism of kneeling continues. This is not solidarity - do not be confused by it. It's a PR stunt. Those same cops are still there when the tide shifts later that night and the brutality begins. They aren't reining in the men and women beside them, they aren't refusing to fire on protestors, they aren't refusing to arrest journalists. They aren't releasing arrested protestors from the cells and refusing to be complicit in the repression of the uprising.

They are posing for photographs and trying to redirect anger. Nothing more.
Probably.
Leviathan muscle memory. Some individuals strong on the justice axis are sympathetic. We had an example on this forum. Some senior individuals have seen riots before and are making tactical symbolic moves to blunt the anger. The example of the police chief in New York kneeling with all his men looking disgusted behind him sticks on the mind. I don't believe for a second it means he's serious about police reform, but the first step would look like that.

It's a scattered response. Different people at every level. Mixed messages and creatively interpenetrating orders all the way down. Accusations of old police cars and brick pallets left as bait to accelerate violence*. Accusations of police intentionally or mistakenly twar gassing protestors who were fire fighting.

Some examples circulating of one agent telling another off for shoving protesters. Others are following the president's lead. The more fear and chaos now, the more of his volk turn out to relect him. The more community organisers filmed now and jailed next month, the less opposition.

Lots of people out of work or expecting it. Lots of people with little to lose in short term, and demanding a stake in the long term. Not many reasons to hold back.

*For the #brickbait one, the examples I've seen so far mostly confirm to me that most people are blind to infrastructure works under normal conditions rather then actually organised traps.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 06:59am

Those who are sympathetic but participate in repressing the uprising still aren't acting in genuine solidarity. Genuine solidarity, in these cases, would involve direct action of the kind that they are uniquely able to carry out - freeing protestors, ordering their men to stand down and disarm when ordered to disperse peaceful protestors, feeding information to antifascists, and so on. Their sympathy is nice, but solidarity it is not. I'm aware that this would probably lose them their jobs, but solidarity from the police requires sacrifice.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by PainRack » 2020-06-02 07:21am

loomer wrote:
2020-06-02 01:41am
It's a speech that has been received with no small amount of rage because Obama had the opportunity to help resolve a lot of this shit and completely failed to do so, and in some respects, actually worsened the situation with platitudes that masked inaction and covered over the issues.
There's only so much 8 years that can be done against active resistance.

Obama was one of those who promoted bodycams and forced the police to videotape interrogations in Chicago so it's very hard to say he did nothing. I think you seriously don't understand just how decentralized US policing is.

Central orders from the government needs to be filtered through States and while there's a national standard, it's up to actual counties or said force, be it city or state to meet that standard.

Still. What do you think should have been done ?
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Vendetta » 2020-06-02 07:49am

It's bad enough in the US that in many cases the only thing that can make a force clean up its act is when its insurance company tells it to because they're tired of paying out for the claims against them.

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-06-02 07:50am

PainRack wrote:
2020-06-02 07:21am
loomer wrote:
2020-06-02 01:41am
It's a speech that has been received with no small amount of rage because Obama had the opportunity to help resolve a lot of this shit and completely failed to do so, and in some respects, actually worsened the situation with platitudes that masked inaction and covered over the issues.
There's only so much 8 years that can be done against active resistance.

Obama was one of those who promoted bodycams and forced the police to videotape interrogations in Chicago so it's very hard to say he did nothing. I think you seriously don't understand just how decentralized US policing is.

Central orders from the government needs to be filtered through States and while there's a national standard, it's up to actual counties or said force, be it city or state to meet that standard.

Still. What do you think should have been done ?
Well, for a start, he could've curtailed American imperialism abroad and de-escalated drone programs rather than expanding them (and if you don't see the connection, ask Cornel West), not presided over an administration that massively scaled up attacks on journalists and whistleblowers, not renewed the Pariot Act, pushed for actual laws around data privacy, publicly defended anti-fascist action, not labelled participants in the Ferguson and Baltimore protests thugs, and pushed for laws prohibiting the sale of surplus federal military equipment to police departments. You know, just a few ideas.

Also why is it that the go-to response seems to be 'well you just don't understand <x> about America'? It's a silly one, because I'm being guided in my opinions by Americans. So, sure - maybe I don't fully grasp America, but I'm pretty goddamn sure that the people I'm listening to do. Or are you assuming that I'm just making up the anger directed towards his speech from Black leftists?
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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