COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

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mr friendly guy
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-05-24 10:50pm

A week or so old, but I only found out about this from YT channels I subscribe to today

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/amaz ... ?r=US&IR=T
'It's a slap in the face': Amazon is handing out 'Thank you' t-shirts to warehouse workers as it cuts their hazard pay
ISOBEL ASHER HAMILTON
MAY 16, 2020, 5:16 PM

Amazon has started to phase out policies brought in to help its warehouse staff deal with working during the coronavirus pandemic.
Last month it ended a policy of unlimited unpaid time off, and this week it announced it will end its $US2 per hour wage increase from June.
Two warehouse employees told Business Insider the company had handed out t-shirts to staff as a thank-you.

Amazon is handing out branded merchandise to say thanks to warehouse workers during the coronavirus pandemic, even as it phases out policies intended to help.

Two Amazon employees told Business Insider the company has distributed “thank-you” t-shirts to its warehouse workers (or “fulfillment associates”).

One worker based in Indiana shared a picture of the shirt they received, the front reads “Thanks to you” and on the back: “Together, we’ll deliver.”

The workers said the t-shirts were distributed last week, when they were placed in a room and workers had to go in to pick the size they wanted.

The token comes as Amazon announced it would be cutting the $US2 per hour wage hike it brought in for staff in mid-March as hazard pay for coming in during the pandemic.

The workers BI spoke to aren’t particularly happy about the trade-off. “With states opening up and over 21 cases at our warehouse so far and at least one death at the Indianapolis warehouse, it’s a slap in the face,” one said.

Another employee based in Texas said similar t-shirts had been given out at their warehouse – although they did not receive one because they do not work on the warehouse floor.

“All I can say was that it felt like they are trying to change the narrative that is reflected in the news, as it looks negatively upon the company. While I hate to sound ungrateful for anything, putting a big ‘Thank you’ on the shirt was a clear indication they wanted to sway our thoughts. It just didn’t feel sincere,” they said.

At the end of April Amazon also ended the offer of unlimited unpaid time off (UPT), a policy first brought in to help warehouse employees handle the pressures of working during the pandemic. Normally, workers are permitted 20 hours of unpaid time off per quarter.

Amazon has had to move quickly to keep up with a sudden spike in demand caused by customers stuck at home, while also introducing policies to protect its frontline workers.

It went on a huge 175,000 worker hiring spree and brought in increased cleaning and social-distancing – although multiple workers have told Business Insider in practice it’s impossible to socially distance inside the warehouse and cleaning supplies are often missing.

Now the retail giant seems to have got a more steady hand on its supply chain, and it is removing its coronavirus worker policies like increased pay and unlimited UPT to match. Workers Business Insider spoke to said it was too soon to reverse the policies, as the risk of coronavirus is far from over.

One worker told Business Insider the decision was particularly galling given there has been an uptick of cases in their facility in Maryland.

“Amazon is an economic juggernaut with the world’s wealthiest CEO at the helm, surely such a titan can afford to pay his employees a mere two dollars extra,” they said.

Since the beginning of 2020, CEO Jeff Bezos’ net worth has increased by $US29 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index.

At least seven Amazon warehouse workers are now confirmed to have died with coronavirus across the US.

Numerous worker protests have cropped up, and the company appears to have cracked down on internal communications.

The company has also terminated some employees involved in public protest, including warehouse worker Christian Smalls whose case became a cause celèbre after a leaked memo showed a meeting of Amazon executives at which CEO Jeff Bezos was present discussed how best to handle the media fallout from his firing.

Amazon asserts it has not fired anyone for worker dissent, and that Smalls and others were terminated for violating company policies.
I have no idea what is considered "fair" hazard pay, since I kind of work in the medical industry so we are exposed to risks anyway, but $2 and hour seems a little low to me, given the minimum wage for Amazon is $15 an hour, so that's 13% increase.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by Mr Bean » 2020-05-24 11:46pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-05-24 10:50pm


I have no idea what is considered "fair" hazard pay, since I kind of work in the medical industry so we are exposed to risks anyway, but $2 and hour seems a little low to me, given the minimum wage for Amazon is $15 an hour, so that's 13% increase.
Well I'll respond to that with this from the US Goverment
Navy Hazard Pay $150 per month
Servicemembers, who under competent orders, perform hazardous duties such as:flying duty as non-crewmembers, parachute jumping, demolition of explosives, handle toxic fuels, engage in flight deck duty or experimental stress duty, and so on earn $150 per month.

2$ an hour is 170$ more a month than the US Navy (And other branches) provide for even dumber and more dangerous activities. Also it was 150$ when I served 2002-2006, it was 150$ when my Uncle got out in 1993.

This is not calling the Navy out just a simple statement that Amazon is being more generous than most. 2% does not seem like much but it's great Hazard pay for those of us who were paid it in the past.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by loomer » 2020-05-25 12:05am

UBC is trialling face masks made of local wood fiber that might be N95-grade and can be produced using only domestic resources.

Obviously, this is good news, but the bad news to go with it is that once the pandemic is over we'll need to give these masks some very serious side-eye because their viability is linked to the continued logging industry in BC, though Canada's regime is one of the better ones - for a given quantity of better - in terms of deforestation impact.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-05-25 04:43am

Solauren wrote:
2020-05-24 10:36am
“China has, over the objections of the U.S. government, impaired the operating rights of U.S. carriers,” U.S. Department of Transportation Assistant Secretary Joel Szabat wrote to Chinese airlines in a public letter.
So, let me get this straight. A member of the United States government has gone on record, basically stating that in their opinion, countries have no sovereign rights in regards to regulating US businesses?
Funny thing is, the US just banned flights from Brazil over coronavirus fears. But apparently banning the country with the most number of cases is not allowed.
https://apnews.com/68f8ce91135e3bb0af1b2f2a6a18c518
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by darth_timon » 2020-05-25 04:27pm

In the UK it seems that government advisors can do things that ordinary people aren't allowed to... like travel 260 miles, under the excuse of 'testing eyesight', among other reasons.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by Broomstick » 2020-05-25 04:42pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-05-24 10:50pm
A week or so old, but I only found out about this from YT channels I subscribe to today

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/amaz ... ?r=US&IR=T

...[/snip]....

I have no idea what is considered "fair" hazard pay, since I kind of work in the medical industry so we are exposed to risks anyway, but $2 and hour seems a little low to me, given the minimum wage for Amazon is $15 an hour, so that's 13% increase.
$2/hour "hazard pay" seems pretty standard in US retail during this pandemic, at least in the Midwest.

I'll just point out that my company has extended this "hazard pay" through June, still allows unlimited unpaid time off (although they prefer you to arrange this in advance for scheduling purposes - I have coworkers that have taken from one week to one month off with this program), and all the other extras during this time. Which is not to say where I work is paradise, but it seems to beat Amazon at least in some respects.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-05-26 12:31am

LINK
AP count: Over 4,500 virus patients sent to NY nursing homes
By BERNARD CONDON, JENNIFER PELTZ and JIM MUSTIAN
May 22, 2020

NEW YORK (AP) — More than 4,500 recovering coronavirus patients were sent to New York’s already vulnerable nursing homes under a controversial state directive that was ultimately scrapped amid criticisms it was accelerating the nation’s deadliest outbreaks, according to a count by The Associated Press.

AP compiled its own tally to find out how many COVID-19 patients were discharged from hospitals to nursing homes under the March 25 directive after New York’s Health Department declined to release its internal survey conducted two weeks ago. It says it is still verifying data that was incomplete.

Whatever the full number, nursing home administrators, residents’ advocates and relatives say it has added up to a big and indefensible problem for facilities that even Gov. Andrew Cuomo — the main proponent of the policy — called “the optimum feeding ground for this virus.”

“It was the single dumbest decision anyone could make if they wanted to kill people,” Daniel Arbeeny said of the directive, which prompted him to pull his 88-year-old father out of a Brooklyn nursing home where more than 50 people have died. His father later died of COVID-19 at home.

“This isn’t rocket science,” Arbeeny said. “We knew the most vulnerable -- the elderly and compromised -- are in nursing homes and rehab centers.”

Told of the AP’s tally, the Health Department said late Thursday it “can’t comment on data we haven’t had a chance to review, particularly while we’re still validating our own comprehensive survey of nursing homes admission and re-admission data in the middle of responding to this global pandemic.”

Cuomo, a Democrat, on May 10 reversed the directive, which had been intended to help free up hospital beds for the sickest patients as cases surged. But he continued to defend it this week, saying he didn’t believe it contributed to the more than 5,800 nursing and adult care facility deaths in New York — more than in any other state — and that homes should have spoken up if it was a problem.

“Any nursing home could just say, ‘I can’t handle a COVID person in my facility,’” he said, although the March 25 order didn’t specify how homes could refuse, saying that ”no resident shall be denied re-admission or admission to the (nursing home) solely based” on confirmed or suspected COVID-19.

Over a month later, on April 29, the Health Department clarified that homes should not take any new residents if they were unable to meet their needs, including a checklist of standards for coronavirus care and prevention.

In the meantime, some nursing homes felt obligated and overwhelmed.

Gurwin Jewish, a 460-bed home on Long Island, seemed well-prepared for the coronavirus in early March, with movable walls to seal off hallways for the infected. But after the state order, a trickle of recovering COVID-19 patients from local hospitals turned into a flood of 58 people.

More walls were put up, but other residents nonetheless began falling sick and dying. In the end, 47 Gurwin residents died of confirmed or suspected COVID-19.

The state order “put staff and residents at great risk,” CEO Stuart Almer said. “We can’t draw a straight line from bringing in someone positive to someone catching the disease, but we’re talking about elderly, fragile and vulnerable residents.”

The Society for Post-Acute and Long-Term Care Medicine, known as AMDA, had warned from the beginning that Cuomo’s order admitting infected patients posed a “clear and present danger” to nursing home residents. Now, Jeffrey N. Nichols, who serves on the executive committee of the group, said “the effect of that order was to contribute to 5,000 deaths.”

Nationally, over 35,500 people have died from coronavirus outbreaks at nursing homes and long-term care facilities, about a third of the overall death toll, according to the AP’s running tally.

Cuomo has deflected criticism over the nursing home directive by saying it stemmed from Trump administration guidance. Still, few states went as far as New York and neighboring New Jersey, which has the second-most care home deaths, in discharging hospitalized coronavirus patients to nursing homes. California followed suit but loosened its requirement following intense criticism.

Some states went in the opposite direction. Louisiana barred hospitals for 30 days from sending coronavirus patients to nursing homes with some exceptions. And while Louisiana reported about 1,000 coronavirus-related nursing home deaths, far fewer than New York, that was 40% of Louisiana’s statewide death toll, a higher proportion than in New York.

New York’s Health Department told the AP May 8 it was not tracking how many recovering COVID-19 patients were taken into nursing homes under the order. But it was at that very moment surveying administrators of the state’s over 1,150 nursing homes and long-term care facilities on just that question.

Those survey results have yet to be released. But regardless, the Health Department said, the survey had no bearing on Cuomo’s announcement May 10 that “we’re just not going to send a person who is positive to a nursing home after a hospital visit.”

Cuomo said such patients would be accommodated elsewhere, such as sites originally set up as temporary hospitals.

To some, the governor’s reversal came too late.

“It infected a great number of people in nursing homes who had no business getting infected, including short-term residents who were there for rehabilitation after surgeries,” said John Dalli, a New York attorney who specializes in nursing home cases.

To be sure, incoming residents weren’t the only possible source of infection. Some homes believe a bigger contribution came from staffers and residents unaware they had the virus. And some say they would have taken on COVID-19 patients regardless of the state’s order.

“There were nursing homes that realized that there was a void,” said Sarah Colomello, a spokeswoman for Thompson House in Rhinebeck. The 100-bed facility set up an isolated unit where affiliated hospitals nearby have sent at least 21 patients. It has reported no deaths.

Cuomo administration officials say the original directive came when the governor feared the hospital system would be overwhelmed and was focused on creating as much hospital space as possible.

That was welcomed by one of the many hospital systems and nursing homes surveyed for AP’s count. Northwell Health said three of its medical centers were so overtaxed at one point they had to put some ICU patients in hallways. To relieve pressure, the company eventually sent more than 1,700 COVID-19 patients to nursing homes.

“Suffice it say, our hospitals were under stress,” spokesman Terence Lynam said.

___

Associated Press investigative researcher Randy Herschaft contributed to this report.
Over/under until Cuomo is executed? Not likely to happen but if anyone deserves it, it's him.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-05-27 12:40am

Doesn't NY have army bases or stadia they could use for the mildly ill?

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-27 02:31am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-05-26 12:31am
Over/under until Cuomo is executed? Not likely to happen but if anyone deserves it, it's him.
How about you stop jerking off to your fantasies about executing Democrats. Or at least have the guts to admit what these "Will he be executed/should he be executed" comments are: veiled incitement to assassination.

Cuomo's a piece of shit in many ways, though like all pieces of shit, still entitled to due process. But its funny how I never see you speculating/fantasizing about Donald Trump's execution, despite the fact that his COVID death toll can be counted in the tens of thousands.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-27 02:36am

A while back, the Canadian military got called in to help with Ontario and Quebec senior care homes.

The military has now issued a damning report on rampant neglect and abuse in senior homes in Ontario, with another expected shortly for Quebec:

https://theglobeandmail.com/canada/arti ... -horrific/#_=_
A Canadian military report released on Tuesday chronicles horrific conditions at five long-term care homes in Ontario, ranging from poor infection control practices to the neglect and abuse of residents.

The Ontario government said Tuesday it would send inspectors from the Ministry of Long-Term Care into the seniors’ residences to investigate the military’s allegations. But critics said members of Premier Doug Ford’s government should have been aware of long-standing problems at the homes well before the military stepped in.

In their report, the Canadian Armed Forces describe one home using narcotics to sedate residents who are “agitated and difficult” over being confined to their rooms during the pandemic lockdown. “But when you talk to them,” the report says, “they just say they’re ‘scared and feel alone like they’re in jail.’ ”

Two seniors’ residences are infested with cockroaches and leave residents in soiled diapers, the report says. Staff in one of the homes take up to two hours to respond to their cries for help. And a third home is force-feeding residents, causing audible choking.

Mr. Ford told reporters he didn’t know the “full extent” of what was happening in the homes until he read the military’s report on Monday. Mr. Ford said the results of an investigation by the coroner will be shared with police to “look into any possible criminal charges.”

“It’s shocking that this can happen here in Canada” Mr. Ford said. “It’s gut wrenching."

An in-depth look at five long-term care facilities observed by Canadian Armed Forces

Inspection reports reveal critical gaps inside Quebec nursing homes ravaged by COVID-19

If Doug Ford wants long-term care reform, he should be bold and decisive and just do it

The federal government deployed the military to homes in Ontario and Quebec in late April to provide humanitarian relief and medical support at the request of the two provinces. The military is also expected to produce a report detailing the problems witnessed at 28 Quebec elder-care centres.

The five homes in Ontario have been hit hard by the coronavirus: To date, a total of 217 residents have died of COVID-19, the respiratory disease caused by the virus. All but one of the homes are owned by private, for-profit companies.

The military says it wrote the 15-page report to ensure that its observations do not go unnoticed. “It is with a heavy heart that I bring this to your attention on behalf of the government of Canada,” Public Safety Minister Bill Blair says in a letter attached to the report.

Mr. Ford said he asked the Canadian military to extend its mission in the homes for another 30 days. Asked why it took the Canadian Armed Forces to shine a light on the practices that compromised the frail elderly, Mr. Ford cited the military’s 24/7 presence, saying they were able to detect things that inspectors could not by spending a few days in a home.

“You need someone very transparent, like the military, to go in there and say, here are the goods, as ugly and as heartbreaking as it is, here it is. That’s where you get the real answers,” he said.

Merrilee Fullerton, Minister of Long-Term Care, said the COVID-19 pandemic “tipped our homes over the brink,” when asked why previous inspections by her ministry did not uncover the problems documented by the military.

A Globe and Mail investigation revealed that the Ministry of Labour, which is responsible for ensuring that employers comply with workplace health and safety standards, also failed to detect problems. The ministry has routinely inspected seniors’ homes by phone rather than in person during the pandemic.

Mr. Ford said the tragic situation in the province’s nursing homes serves as a wake-up call to reform the long-term care system, which he said has suffered from decades of neglect.

The shortcomings identified by the military are not limited to the five homes, Mr. Ford said, adding that he spoke to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Tuesday to ask for federal funding to do a “deep dive” into the operations of all the province’s long-term care homes and called for national standard operating procedures.

Mr. Trudeau said he assured Mr. Ford that Ottawa would be there to support the province as they deal with this situation. “I read the report in full yesterday,” he said. “It is deeply disturbing. There are things in there that are extremely troubling. We need to take action.”

Two of the homes operating with help from the military – Eatonville Care Centre and Hawthorne Place Care Centre – are owned by the same company, Rykka Care Centres.

Both homes issued statements, saying the COVID-19 pandemic has been the most difficult challenge they have ever faced. In addition to staff who tested positive for the virus, said Eatonville executive director Evelyn MacDonald, “some staff did not come to work due to personal health reasons, and those who remained were overwhelmed by the pressures brought on by COVID-19.”

Gail Coburn, executive director of Hawthorne, said all residents are now free of the virus. “We have now turned the corner.”

Another home is Orchard Villa in Pickering, where 69 residents have died of the virus. The office of the chief coroner is investigating the death of a resident at the home who, according to the military’s report, choked to death while being fed lying down. A spokeswoman for the coroner said the office’s involvement in relation to the military’s findings is limited to this one case.

It took the provincial government far too long to understand the gravity of the situation at Orchard Villa, said Cathy Parkes, whose 86-year-old father Paul Parkes died at the home on April 15. Ms. Parkes said she and other residents’ family members have been writing to the Premier, his cabinet ministers and MPPs for weeks.

“It’s mind-boggling to me that it had to get to that point,” said Ms. Parkes, who has filed a lawsuit against the home and its owner. “I wish that it didn’t take the military to do a report for Doug Ford to have listened to what we were saying.”

Orchard Villa did not respond to a request for comment. The other two homes are Altamont Care in Toronto and Holland Christian Homes in Brampton.

“To deliver the level of care that our seniors deserve, the staffing challenges we face in the long-term care sector must be addressed,” said Natalie Gokchenian, a spokesperson for Sienna Senior Living, Altamont’s owner.

Ken Rawlins, CEO of Holland Christian, said the situation at the home has stabilized to the point where the military feels it can redeploy elsewhere. “Like others, including our political leaders, we were shocked and dismayed at some of the conditions identified in this report,” he said.

NDP Leader Andrea Horwath said Mr. Ford and Ms. Fullerton should have known about the “horrific conditions” at the homes, and called on Ms. Fullerton to resign.

Sharleen Stewart, president of SEIU Healthcare, which represents 60,000 workers, said her union has for months been raising concerns about COVID-19 in long-term care homes, including staffing issues, and called on the government in March to take over facilities in crisis.

“Why does it take the armed forces to confirm everything that we have said to this government?” she said.

Vicki McKenna, president of the Ontario Nurses Association, said she, too, has long been raising concerns with the government about long-term care. In April, the ONA sought a court order to compel three long-term care homes owned by Rykka Care Centres – including Hawthorne Place and Eatonville – to comply with provincial infection control and health and safety standards.

“We need the public to continue to pressure the government to act. We don’t have time here,” Ms. McKenna said.

As of Monday, 1,538 deaths have been reported in long-term care homes by the Ministry of Long-Term Care, along with 1,335 staff infections. Six staff members have also died.

Ms. McKenna said she believes for-profit long-term care plays a role in the crisis, and more fulsome inspections are required.

Mr. Ford said calling a full public inquiry into the long-term care system remains an option.

With a report from Kristy Kirkup
Without going into personal details, I can tell you that a lot of this shit happens in BC care homes too, and I doubt anyone who's had a relative they cared enough to check up on in one of these places will be terribly surprised by this report. So thank you to the Canadian military for making it impossible to turn a blind eye to any more, at least in Quebec and Ontario. I really hope some people see jail time for this.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-27 06:42pm

Well, as of this afternoon its official: The United States is the first country in the world to pass 100,000 coronavirus dead.

I guess that's what Trump meant by "America First"?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-27 08:47pm

Only half of Americans say they would get a COVID vaccine:

https://theguardian.com/world/2020/may/ ... ccine-poll
Only about half of Americans say they would get a Covid-19 vaccine if available, according to an Associated Press-NORC poll, as a top US government scientist tempered claims by Donald Trump that the United States would be able to invent, manufacture and administer hundreds of millions of vaccine doses by the end of the year.

Trump has routinely touted the speedy development of a vaccine as America’s path out of the coronavirus pandemic, which has taken nearly 100,000 lives in the US. As part of an effort branded “Operation Warp Speed”, Trump has set a goal of a 300m-dose stockpile by January.

Vaccine developers have called that time frame “aspirational”. But polling published on Wednesday indicates that the country could run up against another obstacle in its fight against the virus: vaccine refusal.

In reply to the question, “If a vaccine against the coronavirus becomes available, do you plan to get vaccinated?”, 49% of respondents said yes and 20% said no. About one-third said they weren’t sure.

Most epidemiologists believe that either a 50-60% infection rate, or a vaccine, would be required to stop the spread of the virus in the United States. Current infection rates vary regionally from an estimated 5% to 20%.

Public attitudes towards a vaccine could change quickly if a vaccine or vaccines were unveiled with a public education campaign. But the polling figures reflected US attitudes toward common vaccines such as the flu vaccine, which has about a 50% uptake rate each year.

In previous years, Trump has added his voice to the anti-vaccination movement in the United States, falsely linking vaccines with autism. The movement has contributed to outbreaks of measles in the United States and raised fears about the potential return of eradicated diseases such as smallpox.

Early clinical trials from multiple vaccine candidates have been promising. But Dr Anthony Fauci, the country’s top infectious diseases expert and a member of the White House coronavirus taskforce, warned in an interview with CNN on Wednesday that the road to a vaccine could have unforeseen detours.

Asked whether a vaccine would be widely available in the United States “before the end of the year,” Fauci said “it is possible.

“But when you’re dealing with vaccines, you’ve got to remember that you’re dealing with things that have a lot of vicissitudes,” Fauci said. “There are a lot of landmines and hiccups that occur.

Fauci said that scientists were accelerating the vaccine development process “which I must emphasize is not at the expense of safety nor at the expense of scientific integrity.

“I still think that we have a good chance, if all the things fall in the right place, that we might have a vaccine that would be deployable by the end of the year, by November-December,” he said.

Respondents in the poll told the Associated Press said they were concerned about the vaccine development process being rushed. The record time for developing an entirely new vaccine is at least four years.

“I am not an anti-vaxxer,” said Melanie Dries, 56, of Colorado Springs, Colorado. But, “to get a Covid-19 vaccine within a year or two ... causes me to fear that it won’t be widely tested as to side-effects.”

Dr Francis Collins, who directs the National Institutes of Health, insisted safety was the top priority. The NIH is creating a master plan for testing the leading Covid-19 vaccine candidates in tens of thousands of people, to prove if they really work and also if they’re safe.

“I would not want people to think that we’re cutting corners because that would be a big mistake. I think this is an effort to try to achieve efficiencies, but not to sacrifice rigor,” Collins told the AP earlier this month.
Some of this might be down to the inevitable corporate price-gouging for the vaccine in the Land of the Free, and people not being able to afford it. But for the rest...

Look, I'm actually usually supportive of letting people decide for themselves what goes in their bodies (parents refusing to vaccinate their children for dangerous diseases is a different matter). But this disease has killed hundreds of thousands of people and crippled the world. Force these fuckers to get vaccinated.

If COVID-19 were an actual war, these people would be guilty of treason, or at the very least sedition/desertion.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by Ralin » 2020-05-27 08:58pm

Man. Way to go from conscription is slavery to 'actually violating bodily autonomy is okay because this is like a war,' Rom. You jackass.

I'm finding the concerns mentioned in this article not unreasonable. I'd also be worried about the potential side-effects of a vaccine that was rushed through development and into mass production with literally no research on the long term or really anything other than the 'maybe a few months' term.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-27 09:09pm

Ralin wrote:
2020-05-27 08:58pm
Man. Way to go from conscription is slavery to 'actually violating bodily autonomy is okay because this is like a war,' Rom. You jackass.
Personally I find having to take a shot considerably less onerous than being forced to go overseas and kill or be killed for years, but hey, what do I know?

And wow, you're an anti-vaccer. Can't say I'm terribly shocked.

Now behold as "BUT TRR!" works its magic, and being an anti-vaccer becomes an accepted and lauded position on this forum, for no other reason than because I'm against it and you're "calling me out".
I'm finding the concerns mentioned in this article not unreasonable. I'd also be worried about the potential side-effects of a vaccine that was rushed through development and into mass production with literally no research on the long term or really anything other than the 'maybe a few months' term.
By all means, let's do thorough testing. But once that's done, let's not pretend that there aren't tens of millions who will refuse to take it for at least partly selfish or deluded reasons. Because fuck other people.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by darkjedi521 » 2020-05-27 10:29pm

I'll get the shot, but I don't want to be part of the first or second mass vaccinations. I can isolate sufficiently that I'd rather not be part of the mass production test batch.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-27 11:00pm

darkjedi521 wrote:
2020-05-27 10:29pm
I'll get the shot, but I don't want to be part of the first or second mass vaccinations. I can isolate sufficiently that I'd rather not be part of the mass production test batch.
I'll say its fair to want to hold off on getting it until sufficient testing has occurred, certainly. Testing should never be done on involuntary subjects- that's Nazi shit.

This is a very different matter from the "no vaccines ever" crowd, who do not in my view have the right to endanger all of society when we're talking about something as dangerous and contagious as COVID-19.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by loomer » 2020-05-27 11:48pm

I won't be getting it either. I rely on herd immunity thanks to a cluster of underlying medical conditions.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 01:03am

Deaths are mounting on homebound trains for migrant workers in India. Conditions are appalling, by all accounts. These are COVID-19 related deaths that should be easily avoidable.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-05-28 01:51am

loomer wrote:
2020-05-27 11:48pm
I won't be getting it either. I rely on herd immunity thanks to a cluster of underlying medical conditions.
If you're worried about your underlying medical conditions making you vulnerable to a vaccine, it would to pay to check what type of vaccine it is. If its a live attenuated vaccine, ie its a weaken form of the virus, you are likely more vulnerable. If its just using the viral antigens (protein structures of the virus which produce an immune response) you most probably be in better luck.

My advice when it comes out, find a bulk billing GP to discuss it if your own GP doesn't bulk bill.
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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 01:54am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-05-28 01:51am
loomer wrote:
2020-05-27 11:48pm
I won't be getting it either. I rely on herd immunity thanks to a cluster of underlying medical conditions.
If you're worried about your underlying medical conditions making you vulnerable to a vaccine, it would to pay to check what type of vaccine it is. If its a live attenuated vaccine, ie its a weaken form of the virus, you are likely more vulnerable. If its just using the viral antigens (protein structures of the virus which produce an immune response) you most probably be in better luck.

My advice when it comes out, find a bulk billing GP to discuss it if your own GP doesn't bulk bill.
In my case I tend to slip into anaphylaxis with a number of vaccine bases, which for obvious reasons I prefer to avoid whenever possible. I'll still see my GP about it but the odds aren't great between that tendency and a compromised immune system.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by bilateralrope » 2020-05-28 03:37am

Ralin wrote:
2020-05-27 08:58pm
Man. Way to go from conscription is slavery to 'actually violating bodily autonomy is okay because this is like a war,' Rom. You jackass.

I'm finding the concerns mentioned in this article not unreasonable. I'd also be worried about the potential side-effects of a vaccine that was rushed through development and into mass production with literally no research on the long term or really anything other than the 'maybe a few months' term.
How is it being rushed through development ?

Which steps are being skipped ?

I'm asking those questions of anyone who says the vaccines are being rushed. I've yet to have anyone reply. I honestly don't know if them being rushed is an anti-vax talking point or if some parts of the testing process are being skipped.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by bilateralrope » 2020-05-28 03:58am

Coronavirus: NZ could be declared free of Covid-19 in 21 days
John Weekes
18:23, May 28 2020


New Zealand could be declared coronavirus-free in 21 days, a study suggests, and with so few known active cases left, may have already effectively eliminated the disease.

Pinpointing an elimination or "epidemic extinction" date carries potential consequences for New Zealand's economy, foreign relations, and travel restrictions.

The onset date of the most recent active case's symptoms was a key factor in knowing when elimination could be achieved, epidemiologist Professor Michael Baker​ said on Thursday.

That date differed from the date a person returned positive test results, Baker said.

As of 1pm Thursday, only eight active cases were reported in New Zealand.

Baker​, from the University of Otago, told Stuff it was very likely New Zealand was close to eliminating Covid-19 and may have done so already.

Baker said New Zealand might've reached the point where the latest active case was infected so long ago, it was not realistic for that person to infect anybody else.

He understood the Government already had the data identifying the most recent active case's onset date.

The Ministry of Health defines anybody whose onset date was 10 days prior as having "recovered".

A study from Taiwan found nobody was infected through contact more than five days after somebody showed symptoms.

The Taiwan study suggested contact tracers start investigations four days before symptoms showed.

Baker and four other experts outlined scenarios that could speed up or impede the country's ability to declare itself free of coronavirus.

The five researchers said Government transparency on health data, high testing rates and co-operation with Australia would be needed to achieve certainty on elimination.

The Otago study outlined multiple scenarios. At minimum, it would take 27 to 33 days of no new detected cases for the country to reach one definition of epidemic extinction.

With no new cases since May 22, the country could be declared free of the virus by June 18 with 95 per cent probability, according to the study's definitions.

But for a 99 per cent probability of epidemic extinction, the equivalent time period was up to 44 days.

If a new case were to be announced on May 29, and the higher level of certainty desired, "epidemic extinction" might not be declared until July 14.

The Ministry of Health has been approached for comment about onset dates and what definitions it favoured for declaring the country free of coronavirus.

Baker, Professor Nick Wilson, Dr Matthew Parry, Dr Ayesha Verrall, and Professor Martin Eichner​ said Taiwan and Iceland were approaching elimination.

And the Otago experts said when New Zealand achieved Covid-19 elimination status, it could potentially phase out nearly all restrictive disease control measures.

The five authors said quarantine-free travel might start with other Covid-free island jurisdictions for whom New Zealand was the major or sole air-traffic transit hub.

Such countries included Samoa, Tonga, the Cook Islands, and Niue.

And Taiwan, which might declare elimination status before Australia, could also be a candidate, the Otago scholars said.

High levels of testing for people with coughs, fever, and respiratory ailments would be needed, the researchers added.

The Otago modelling relied on virus reproduction levels being suppressed, at rates as low as 0.5.

That rate equated to two sick people only infecting one other person on average.

The five authors said an official definition of elimination should ideally be done in conjunction with Australian health authorities.

The Otago researchers said the Ministry of Health should publish far more details about Covid-19 cases so the public, media and researchers could monitor progress towards achieving elimination.
Looks like New Zealand is going to be a low priority for getting any vaccine.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by Ralin » 2020-05-28 04:41am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-27 09:09pm

Personally I find having to take a shot considerably less onerous than being forced to go overseas and kill or be killed for years, but hey, what do I know?
Spoken like someone who hasn't been held down and forcibly injected with drugs. What you're advocating is wrong and it will leave people traumatized if it actually happens. People will react violently, I would react violently, and they'd be right to do it.
And wow, you're an anti-vaccer. Can't say I'm terribly shocked.

Now behold as "BUT TRR!" works its magic, and being an anti-vaccer becomes an accepted and lauded position on this forum, for no other reason than because I'm against it and you're "calling me out".
Goddamn it really? You really don't see a difference between anti-vaccination paranoia and having people injected with shit against their will?
By all means, let's do thorough testing. But once that's done, let's not pretend that there aren't tens of millions who will refuse to take it for at least partly selfish or deluded reasons. Because fuck other people.
And plenty of women (and occasionally men) get abortions for stupid or selfish reasons, but we're all on the same page that we shouldn't try to stop them. Basic rights aren't basic rights if they go away when they're bad for someone else.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by Ralin » 2020-05-28 04:49am

bilateralrope wrote:
2020-05-28 03:37am

How is it being rushed through development ?

Which steps are being skipped ?

I'm asking those questions of anyone who says the vaccines are being rushed. I've yet to have anyone reply. I honestly don't know if them being rushed is an anti-vax talking point or if some parts of the testing process are being skipped.
We're talking about a hypothetical scenario where a vaccine is created super-fast within the next year.

I don't know how real of a risk that is or the exact science behind it. I'll almost certainly get the vaccine when it's available if enough doctors and medical organizations say it's safe. But that's my choice and not anyone else's. And I'll support anyone else who choices otherwise.

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Re: COVID-19 ongoing thread part 2

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 05:22am

What the fuck is this about abortion?
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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