The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-22 09:29pm

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-03-22 08:58pm
Hmm... why the slow school closures in Australia? Over here that's the first thing that was done, two weeks after hospitals and public buildings started mandating temperature checks (on Jan 12).
I believe the plan is for schools not to reopen after term ends. From what I have been told since I don't have kids, is that the term was going to close in 2 weeks anyway. So they are hoping to minimise the disruption. I don't think its going to be a great idea, since if lots of businesses aren't running at full capacity, parents will have more time to stay at home and care for the kids anyway.

---------------------
Anecdotal evidence, but my patients are wondering why we aren't copying Europe or China earlier. These though have relatives in Europe who have already shut down.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-22 09:37pm

Death toll from coronavirus in New York City rises to 99, up from 63 a few hours ago. Mayor says nearly 1 person an hour is dying and says "the worst is yet to come" - WABC
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-22 10:51pm

Over here in Australia we have totally different way of doing things between states.

WA has taken a hardline on cruise ships, preventing a cruise ship from disembarking.
https://www.6pr.com.au/podcast/breaking ... fremantle/
BREAKING: Cruise ship with over 200 ill passengers wants to dock in Fremantle
14 MINS AGO 10:33 AM / 01:34
GARETH PARKER GARETH PARKERMARK MCGOWANMORNINGSMSC MAGNIFICA

Passengers aboard a cruise ship – seeking to dock at Fremantle port – will not be allowed to disembark.

The MSC Magnifica is carrying more than 1700 people from Italy, France, and Germany and wants to stop in Fremantle, potentially as soon as tonight.

But around 250 on board have reported upper-respiratory illnesses.

Premier Mark McGowan says his priority is to protect West Australians.
Meanwhile in NSW, who lets a cruise ship disembark without testing most of the passengers.

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-w ... 8-c-756909
Coronavirus cases linked to Ruby Princess cruise ship docked in Sydney increase to 18

More than a dozen new cases of coronavirus in New South Wales have been linked to a cruise ship that was docked in Sydney Harbour.

The Ruby Princess returned to Sydney on Thursday after visiting New Zealand.

Watch the video above


There were 1,148 crew and 2,647 passengers on board - the latter of which were allowed to disembark and potentially spread the infection through the city.

Doctors initially tested 13 unwell patients for COVID-19. Three passengers and a crew member were found to have the virus.

However, that number has now risen to 18 people.
Most of the passengers were allowed to disembark without testing, because..... reasons.

As per Australian guidelines, testing is allowed in those who are suspected to have the disease. Its a bit vague, but I think being stuck on cruise ship kind of qualifies.

Good thing WA has now closed the borders. :D
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-22 11:31pm

Tribble wrote:
2020-03-22 07:52pm
loomer wrote:
Forgive me for my confusion here, I would appreciate it if you can clarify your viewpoint.

To me what you said so far seems to mean that Indigenous nations should be the top priority in triage for healthcare access over non-indigenous people, particularly when it comes to the elderly.

Is that an accurate representation of your view?

If that is the case, to what degree?

For example, suppose there is a sick indigenous person, and a sick non-indigenous person. The sick non-indigenous person needs to go on ventilator now. The sick indigenous person does not need to go on a ventilator now, but will likely need to in the near future. You have access to one ventilator now, with no guarantee of one being available later due to the increasing caseload. Would you recommend giving it to the sick non-indigenous person who needs it now, or give it to / reserve it for the indigenous person who will likely need it later?
It is, up to a certain point. The basic principle is that you prioritize access to healthcare for the most vulnerable. Indigenous communities are a particularly special case under that principle for a couple of reasons:
1. There are much higher rates of smoking, diabetes, obesity, and lung disease among most Indigenous communities in CANZUS. These are all risk factors for significantly increased COVID-19 mortality, so where possible, you want to prioritize their care - or better yet, prevent infection to begin with.
2. Non-urban Indigenous communities usually have poor healthcare infrastructure (urban Indigenous communities usually piggyback on, with some supplementary clinics and specialists, the usual infrastructure) which further increases their risk of death.
3. Indigenous communities are significantly smaller than settler communities and are largely still recovering from an ongoing campaign of genocide and cultural erasure, which means that any given death is both demographically and culturally more significant. Elders who may be the last fluent speakers of a language undergoing revival attempts are a particularly good example of what's at stake - if the old fellas at my lodge die, it's a personal tragedy; if the old fellas who are the only ones who can speak the language die, it's a collective tragedy in its own merit regardless how many other people die, and one that merits a greater allocation of resources to try and prevent.

So, these factors mean that even without considering the US's fiduciary duty to the tribes, there's very good reason to put them (alongside other groups in similar circumstances) at the front of the list for reinforcement before the pandemic can get established in them, and for relief if it does. They're both physically and culturally vulnerable to the pandemic in a way that most settler communities aren't.

As to your hypothetical scenario, it depends on the circumstances of the two people involved (e.g. is one a 97-year old cancer patient and the other a 25-year old rock climbing marathon man?), and with just one ventilator it isn't really feasible to take anything but an immediate tack to try and save lives. But if the cause is like the pandemic we currently have, then absolutely you prioritize groups of special vulnerability, beginning with those of multiple vulnerability and shifting down the line. There are certain lines that medical professionals may feel uncomfortable crossing that are still required practically even within this model - e.g. deciding to write off all people over the age of 75 like they have in the worst hit areas of Italy - but such circumstances should be considered in line with two primary considerations. First, what are the cultural impacts of a death where the deceased is a member of a recovering or fragile culture? Second, how much can the infection be contained and resources maximized? The only real difference from ordinary triage is that this extends to a kind of cultural triage as well as a purely individual one. If the choice was between sending the ventilator to, say, a critical care ward with multiple infections or to a clinic with exactly one perfectly contained infection in a fairly healthy individual, then the weighting of the second might necessarily exceed that of the first.

Does that clarify my position for you?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-23 12:42am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-03-22 01:46pm
Senator Rand Paul has tested positive for COVID-19.

Image
I posted this in the Harvey Weinstein thread, but in case anyone missed it, the disgraced media mogul has tested positive for the coronavirus. He is in a higher risk group being 68 and all with comorbidities like obesity.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-23 12:45am

Meanwhile with the Olympic games.

https://www.straitstimes.com/sport/coro ... ummer-2020
Coronavirus: Canada first country to boycott 2020 Summer Games, others welcome talk of Olympics postponement

TORONTO/TOKYO (REUTERS) - Canada became the first country to boycott the Tokyo Games due to the coronavirus pandemic and Australia told its athletes to prepare for an Olympics next year as Japan and the International Olympic Committee (IOC) flagged the prospect of a postponement for the first time.

Opposition to holding the Games in July has risen sharply in the past 48 hours, with several major stakeholders such as US Track and Field and UK Athletics, along with some national Olympic committees, calling for a delay because of the pandemic.
Just postpone the games until we get on top of covid 19.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-23 12:54am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-23 12:42am
MKSheppard wrote:
2020-03-22 01:46pm
Senator Rand Paul has tested positive for COVID-19.

Image
I posted this in the Harvey Weinstein thread, but in case anyone missed it, the disgraced media mogul has tested positive for the coronavirus. He is in a higher risk group being 68 and all with comorbidities like obesity.
I'm sure no one foresaw that. On a serious note, prisons are a major health hazard at the moment due to the risk of uncontrolled spread so I'm much more concerned about the other inmates. Weinstein's isolation is a benefit but all it takes is one slip to have one nasty hotspot.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by bilateralrope » 2020-03-23 02:50am

New Zealand is going into full lockdown within 48 hours.

With the police threatening to control access to supermarkets if people start using them as social hubs:
BUYING GROCERIES

Supermarkets and pharmacies will remain open throughout the month-long shut down. Within an hour of the announced lockdown, queues were already forming at supermarkets around the country.

But Ardern and government officials continue to issue the same advice: Don't panic buy.

"If you do not have immediate needs, do not go to the supermarket ... there will be enough for everyone if we shop normally," Ardern said on Monday.

Supermarkets are not expected to become the community's social hub, however. Social distancing should be practiced.

Entry to supermarkets may be managed by police if people do not show restraint.

"I hope we don't get to that point," Ombler, the government controller, said.
I work security which is considered essential. Though my site means the only people I'll be coming into contact with are the other guards.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-23 04:35am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 04:10pm
If she'd asked for tea and sympathy she'd get it, but she decided to try and belittle and so she gets belittled.
Why on earth would I ask for "tea and sympathy"?

I don't look to you for validation. Why would I? But just to be clear: your opinion of who I am and what I do has zero impact on me.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-23 04:37am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-22 05:12pm
It sucks, but it beats letting the worst case estimates play out (the worst I've heard lately was 2.2 million dead in the US, which to put in context is just over five times all our dead in WWII, or about seventy 9/11s).
The point of taking such extreme measures is to avoid such an outcome. Which we all know, I think, but it bears repeating.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Beowulf » 2020-03-23 04:51am

US's fiduciary duty to the tribes
Can you explain what fiduciary duty means?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-23 05:01am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
Congratulations. You stock shelves.
Factually incorrect. I was promoted beyond that years ago. More attempts to diminish me and my contributions.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
This does not give you license to get shirty or abusive with people
I'm sorry - you being immuno-compromised does not give you license to belittle and smear other people. It's also been a long standing policy on this forum that you can call an asshole and asshole. You're an asshole, regardless of your state of physical health.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
You decided to get shirty, and so have I in response
No, you start off shitty by your demands to put one group of people over another, by belittling the contributions of others, your contempt for anyone not you or in line with your notions.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
broomstick wrote:Second, I have asthma. And I'm middle aged. If I catch this I am at far higher risk than the average person of dying... yet I still go to work. Because I do something my community assures me is very much needed. Given that my job involves coming face to face with hundreds of people daily I am also at higher risk of catching it than average.
Congratulations. You stock shelves while being sick.
Again, factually incorrect. I have not been a stocker for years.

Also, having asthma does not make one "sick" if it is properly controlled.

Also, compared to some of my co-workers my physical issues are minor, yet they, too are also continuing to work. A fact that you dismiss as us being mere retail drones or something. I'm sorry if we don't meet your definition of essential personnel but you know what? Your opinion means jackshit. My community - you know, community, something you profess to be big on - demonstrates to me that they value me and my contribution. The fact that you are are bitter, so small, and so mean as to smear and denigrate those who labor to keep things functioning even at some risk to themselves, just shows how awful and terrible an excuse of a human you are.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
Would Madame care for a Purple Heart, or perhaps a Presidential Bravery Award?
Nope. I'd like to be able to pay my bills - which I can - and a guarantee that I will not lose my job or my home if I get sick with this new virus. Which guarantee I now have. I am NOT exceptional - right now millions of people around the world are running some risk, to one degree or another, so others can be safe. But hey, go ahead and shit on them because you view their jobs as not important or you see them as lesser creatures than yourself.

I do find it interesting that 1) you view stocking shelves as an occupation worthy of contempt and 2) you can't conceive of my being higher up in the hierarchy.... which, if you actually did read what I wrote on a regular basis you'd know is the case. Not that you have to read anything of mine - I often ignore the posts of people I don't personally like so why shouldn't you? - but the fact you are under the delusion that the only thing I do in life is "stock shelves" just shows that you know nothing about me and are just flailing around looking for a means of attack based on your own prejudices.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
Meanwhile - find something to do from home. Other than dumping on people on-line then say "oh, poor me! Woe is me!" when they return your abuse.
You began the abuse, you utter twit
I made the suggestion because you are obviously an angry, bitter person. Find something to do that improves your mental health. If your work is what is making you this angry and bitter find a hobby - something other than shitting on other people on line. Do something positive away from whatever shit is making you such an angry, dark, bitter, corrosive shit of a human being.

Don't do it for me - do it for YOU. I don't like you at all but neither do I wish you to come to any harm, physical or mental. Find something positive to do in your spare time for your own sake.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-23 05:12am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 11:31pm
So, these factors mean that even without considering the US's fiduciary duty to the tribes, there's very good reason to put them (alongside other groups in similar circumstances) at the front of the list for reinforcement before the pandemic can get established in them, and for relief if it does. They're both physically and culturally vulnerable to the pandemic in a way that most settler communities aren't.
So... the millions of people in New York City can just go to hell and die, it's more important to provide supplies to other communities that you personally favor. Gotcha.

Not much different than the folks saying let the virus run rampant, it only kills off the old, weak, and sick. A view I personally find repugnant.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 11:31pm
First, what are the cultural impacts of a death where the deceased is a member of a recovering or fragile culture? Second, how much can the infection be contained and resources maximized? The only real difference from ordinary triage is that this extends to a kind of cultural triage as well as a purely individual one.
In other words - "I like these people better so I'll save them first".
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 11:31pm
Does that clarify my position for you?
Yep.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-23 05:13am

Beowulf wrote:
2020-03-23 04:51am
US's fiduciary duty to the tribes
Can you explain what fiduciary duty means?
Sure thing. A fiduciary duty is a special duty that requires its holder to put the interests of a principal before their own interests in any relevant matter - e.g. if you give me money to hold in trust for you, I have a fiduciary duty to act in your best interests with that money under all circumstances. It mostly occurs in trusts, corporate arrangements, agency agreements, and some charitable situations, but it crops up here and there elsewhere where the language of trusts has been used to create equitable requirements of good conduct in non-trust fields.

In the context of the US, treaty arrangements established both a general fiduciary duty owed to the tribes as domestic subaltern nations and laid the ground work for the most easily approached part of this duty, which is the existence of the Indian trusts, but since United States v Mitchell (1983) 463 U.S. 206 that duty has been recognized as being both general and indisputable, and has accordingly expanded into other fields. There's been suits stemming from it around protection of sacred sites, IP, water rights, etc, most of them deriving their force from the original treaties but also from the resultant trust doctrine as formulated over the last century and a half of judicial interpretation. It extends so far as to ensure the survival of the tribes and the peoples of those tribes and nations generally, too.

So that's the context behind repeating that the US owes a special fiduciary duty to Native American communities and people. It's a fact of law that this is the case, and not really one open to dispute except in the broadest sense of whether a colonial occupier can ever actually owe a duty to domestic subalterns or whether such a duty is discretionary due to the pragmatic realities of power.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-23 05:22am

In other news...

While some small breweries have made hand sanitizer now Anheuser-Busch is getting into the game:
This really is Beyond Beer.

Brewing giant Anheuser-Busch is making hand sanitizer to help during the coronavirus crisis — while a series of hip New York firms also producing artisanal bottles of the potentially life-saving product.

The world’s biggest brewery company best known for lagers like Budweiser — as well as its Beyond Beer line of hard seltzers and canned wines — announced its support for the crisis late Saturday.

“We have a long history of supporting our communities and employees – this time is no different,” Anheuser-Busch announced on Twitter.

“That’s why we are using our supply and logistics network to begin producing and distributing bottles of hand sanitizer to accommodate the growing needs across the United States.”

The sanitizer was shown in containers similar to those usually holding its beers — which also include Michelob Ultra, Stella Artois and Hoegaarden — and the tagline, “It’s in all our hands to make a difference.”

The company said it would be working with the Red Cross to determine where the hand sanitizer “will be needed most” — while stressing it was being made “in addition” to beer during the time of national crisis.

The mega-brewery with at least 19,000 staff was not the only company helping with hand sanitizer, which quickly sold out from most stores after the coronavirus hit the US and is now desperately needed by health workers on the frontlines of battling the pandemic.

A series of small boutique New York distilleries are also making their own — with beautiful bottles giving them a decidedly more artisanal feel.

“I never thought in my life that I’d be in the hand sanitizer business,” Stephen DeAngelo, founder of Brooklyn’s Greenhook Ginsmiths, told Eater.

The Greenpoint company has been shipping small bottles along with online orders of its booze — and has accepted two orders from hospitals, for 2,500 gallons and 1,700 gallons of hand sanitizer, Eater said.
see also
How to make homemade hand sanitizer amid coronavirus-induced shortage

“I don’t think the future is too bright for gin right now,” DeAngelo told the site. “This helps to keep my staff busy at this time, and we’re doing a lot of good for the hospitals as well.”

Williamsburg’s New York Distilling Company, meanwhile, has been producing its homemade sanitizer in beautiful 200ml glass flasks.

“The distillery is very interested in making larger quantities of hand sanitizer as a public service for our community,” head distiller Bill Potter told Eater.

St. Agrestis Spirits teamed up with Greenhook Ginsmiths so it could include a bottle of artisanal hand sanitizer with every order, with founder Louis Catizone saying that deliveries are the only thing keeping the business “alive.”

“We’re going to keep making and giving out free hand sanitizer until someone tells us to stop,” Catizone told Eater.
We need more creative innovation like this to deal with the current crisis.

Here's another idea - unfortunately there's a paywall but the initial paragraphs get the idea across. The Danish approach to reducing hoarding
A supermarket in Denmark has made an unusual offer to customers tempted to hoard hand sanitiser: buy one bottle for 40 kroner (£5), and they'll sell you the second for 1,000 kroner (£126).

"Since hand sanitiser is in short supply, the price of buying more than one sanitiser per customer is 1,000 kroner," the offer read.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-23 05:32am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-23 05:01am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
Congratulations. You stock shelves.
Factually incorrect. I was promoted beyond that years ago. More attempts to diminish me and my contributions.
Congratulations. You direct the people who stock shelves.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
This does not give you license to get shirty or abusive with people
I'm sorry - you being immuno-compromised does not give you license to belittle and smear other people. It's also been a long standing policy on this forum that you can call an asshole and asshole. You're an asshole, regardless of your state of physical health.
Fun fact - I didn't belittle or smear you until you started in with your 'I work hard! What do you do?!' nonsense. Do you disagree? Can you show me where I did prior to your attempt to use your work as a bludgeon?
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
You decided to get shirty, and so have I in response
No, you start off shitty by your demands to put one group of people over another, by belittling the contributions of others, your contempt for anyone not you or in line with your notions.
Recognizing the existence of a fiduciary duty owed by the government to Native American communities is shitty now? That's odd. I'd call it pointing out a legal obligation towards a vulnerable community - one that's been reported on as a major area of concern during this pandemic. Also, I didn't belittle your contributions until you tried to belittle mine. I do, though, hold you in contempt. You're quite right about that. I hold you in contempt because you decided to go on the attack on the basis that your work is more important than mine, to invent a strawman about evil colonizers, to try and justify the deprivation of supplies to a vulnerable community during a pandemic, and to ignore the legal fact that the US government does in fact owe a special fiduciary duty. Frankly, I don't see why I shouldn't hold you in contempt - your intellectual dishonesty and bad faith conduct is staggering.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
broomstick wrote:Second, I have asthma. And I'm middle aged. If I catch this I am at far higher risk than the average person of dying... yet I still go to work. Because I do something my community assures me is very much needed. Given that my job involves coming face to face with hundreds of people daily I am also at higher risk of catching it than average.
Congratulations. You stock shelves while being sick.
Again, factually incorrect. I have not been a stocker for years.

Also, having asthma does not make one "sick" if it is properly controlled.
Congratulations. You direct the people who stock shelves while having a properly controlled health condition.
Also, compared to some of my co-workers my physical issues are minor, yet they, too are also continuing to work. A fact that you dismiss as us being mere retail drones or something. I'm sorry if we don't meet your definition of essential personnel but you know what? Your opinion means jackshit. My community - you know, community, something you profess to be big on - demonstrates to me that they value me and my contribution. The fact that you are are bitter, so small, and so mean as to smear and denigrate those who labor to keep things functioning even at some risk to themselves, just shows how awful and terrible an excuse of a human you are.
Now, the funny thing is I'm only smearing and denigrating you - and it isn't because you labour. It's because you tried to use the fact you do as a bludgeon when you came out with it out of the blue and demanded to know what I do in an attempt to denigrate my work.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
Would Madame care for a Purple Heart, or perhaps a Presidential Bravery Award?
Nope. I'd like to be able to pay my bills - which I can - and a guarantee that I will not lose my job or my home if I get sick with this new virus. Which guarantee I now have. I am NOT exceptional - right now millions of people around the world are running some risk, to one degree or another, so others can be safe. But hey, go ahead and shit on them because you view their jobs as not important or you see them as lesser creatures than yourself.
Again, my contempt is not for their jobs or labour. My contempt is for your attempt to use your labour to attack me.
I do find it interesting that 1) you view stocking shelves as an occupation worthy of contempt and 2) you can't conceive of my being higher up in the hierarchy.... which, if you actually did read what I wrote on a regular basis you'd know is the case. Not that you have to read anything of mine - I often ignore the posts of people I don't personally like so why shouldn't you? - but the fact you are under the delusion that the only thing I do in life is "stock shelves" just shows that you know nothing about me and are just flailing around looking for a means of attack based on your own prejudices.
Again, my contempt is not for the job of stocking shelves. My contempt is for your absurd attempt to use the fact that you perform labour to attack others. I understand you find that distinction hard to discern, but it's this simple: The work is valid and necessary, and I respect those who perform it. What I do not respect is people who use it - i.e., you - as a basis to attack others and deflect criticism. You raised your labour out of the blue, despite it having no relevance to the conversation, to use as a bludgeon.

It is on that basis that I mock you. You want to talk about saving the world one tiny bit at a time and then demand to know what the fuck I do? Expect to be mocked accordingly. This is why I referred earlier to tea and sympathy - had you raised your work as anything other than a bludgeon, I would not treat you thus, but you did, and so I see no reason to treat your attempt to valourize it with anything but utter contempt.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 03:43pm
Meanwhile - find something to do from home. Other than dumping on people on-line then say "oh, poor me! Woe is me!" when they return your abuse.
You began the abuse, you utter twit
I made the suggestion because you are obviously an angry, bitter person. Find something to do that improves your mental health. If your work is what is making you this angry and bitter find a hobby - something other than shitting on other people on line. Do something positive away from whatever shit is making you such an angry, dark, bitter, corrosive shit of a human being.

Don't do it for me - do it for YOU. I don't like you at all but neither do I wish you to come to any harm, physical or mental. Find something positive to do in your spare time for your own sake.
I would find this rather more compelling if you hadn't decided to come take a swing at me while puffing your chest up about what you do for a living. My work actually fills me with a sense of pride and reminds me that there is in fact a purpose to my life, by the way. I note that you do not dispute that you began the abuse in this conversation - peculiar, then, that you feel justified in telling people what to do so they aren't 'corrosive shit'.

EDIT:
I mean, honestly, the amount of cognitive dissonance in this post is staggering. You are the one who decided to angrily drag your work in to this thread and demanded to know 'What the fuck have YOU do with YOUR day to help someone else?' while inventing some deranged fantasy that I expect you personally to conduct spot checks for Indigeneity in the shop, all in response to a statement of a legal fact around fiduciary obligations and healthcare provisioning. Take your own advice, Broomstick.
Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-23 05:12am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 11:31pm
So, these factors mean that even without considering the US's fiduciary duty to the tribes, there's very good reason to put them (alongside other groups in similar circumstances) at the front of the list for reinforcement before the pandemic can get established in them, and for relief if it does. They're both physically and culturally vulnerable to the pandemic in a way that most settler communities aren't.
So... the millions of people in New York City can just go to hell and die, it's more important to provide supplies to other communities that you personally favor. Gotcha.

Not much different than the folks saying let the virus run rampant, it only kills off the old, weak, and sick. A view I personally find repugnant.
It requires either enormously bad faith or borderline illiteracy to read my post in this light. Those who are more vulnerable to the effects of the pandemic deserve more aid, where possible, to give them better odds of survival. Do you disagree?
loomer wrote:
2020-03-22 11:31pm
First, what are the cultural impacts of a death where the deceased is a member of a recovering or fragile culture? Second, how much can the infection be contained and resources maximized? The only real difference from ordinary triage is that this extends to a kind of cultural triage as well as a purely individual one.
In other words - "I like these people better so I'll save them first".
No, Broomstick. It's a question of whether a culture can survive a death, not whether I like them or not. If there's not enough resources to go around, triage has to be performed and where the impacts of someone's death would be very significant to the preservation of a fragile culture, that ought to be considered as a factor in that triage, unless you want to adopt a complete first in best dressed model. Not because they're likeable, but because there's both a legal and a moral obligation to do so.

Tell me - what model do you propose instead?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-23 05:47am

Meanwhile after Trump's chloroquine claim, people in Australia are suddenly interested in travelling to malaria infested areas. :D

Pharmacists have now been instructed not to dispense chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine unless they know its a patient who has it normally, ie someone being treated for forms of arthritis.

Of course its also an antimalarial drug so people can buy it if they are going to malarial infested areas, but they need a prescription. Due to some areas showing malaria having increasing chloroquine resistance, other drugs are preferred. I usually use doxycycline myself when I travel to South America.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-23/ ... t/12081306
Pharmacists are being ordered not to dispense two drugs touted as a potential "cures" for coronavirus.

Key points:
There has been a major rush for the drugs hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, triggering a shortage
Early tests of the drugs have shown "positive signals" in the fight against COVID-19, but scientists say their effect remains unproven
Pharmacists have warned of a disturbing trend of doctors, nurses and dentists prescribing to friends, family and the community
The directive came after Australian pharmacies saw a rush of people presenting scripts for the drugs hydroxychloroquine — sold as Plaquenil — and chloroquine from their GPs, or asking to buy it over the counter.

Demand skyrocketed following a press conference by US President Donald Trump last week, in which he touted the drugs as a "game changer" — comments based on a World Health Organisation report labelling the drugs a "potentially useful" preventative and curative treatment for COVID-19.

Pharmaceutical Society of Australia president Chris Freeman said Australian pharmacies had seen unprecedented demand for the medications, creating a shortage for patients who actually needed them.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-23 05:50am

There was a fair bit of furor on twitter about that from the UK the other day, where they've apparently had the same thing happen and had it yanked off the shelves in pharmacies to keep it from being totally depleted. Apparently the only possible reason to remove it from the shelves is the deep state wanting to kill people, and not the risk of shortage and the potentially serious side effects when people with no medical training try to use it off label with disregard for dosage instructions.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-23 06:07am

Hey Shep, you will love this one.

On another board, someone posted this Italian article from la Repubblica who is a centre left newspaper according to wiki.

https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2020/0 ... 251883320/

So using google translate, just the juicy bits
SERIOUS case of lack of solidarity in the European Union in the coronavirus emergency, by the Czech Republic against Italy. The GR1 denounced it yesterday thanks to the denunciation of an honest and courageous Czech researcher, Lukas Lev Cervinka, a member of the Pirate party (in opposition but in power at the town hall of the capital Prague). Local authorities arbitrarily seized a huge load of 110 thousand masks - some had even spoken of 680 thousand - and thousands of respirators, which the People's Republic had sent to our country to help us. Only this afternoon, after appropriate steps by the Farnesina, the Italian embassy in Prague said that the Czech authorities have undertaken to return the medical material sent from Beijing and destined for Rome for help and solidarity.
This is the second case of shipments from China to Italy being stopped by another EU member. Hmm. Wonder if further repeats of these actions strengthen the calls for Italy to leave the EU.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-23 06:17am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-23 05:50am
There was a fair bit of furor on twitter about that from the UK the other day, where they've apparently had the same thing happen and had it yanked off the shelves in pharmacies to keep it from being totally depleted. Apparently the only possible reason to remove it from the shelves is the deep state wanting to kill people, and not the risk of shortage and the potentially serious side effects when people with no medical training try to use it off label with disregard for dosage instructions.
That Johnson's favourite policy advisor seemingly fancies himself a HARD MAN who makes HARD DECISIONS probably isn't helping...

Image

Direct link if that doesn't show up: https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/stat ... 2581303296
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-23 06:23am

That kind of herd immunity approach is so incredibly irresponsible even if we accept the initial premise. The risk of long term complications from coronaviruses is still badly understood but there's more and more evidence for serious long term disability stemming from all sorts of viral infection that an approach that says 'fuck yeah gimme that Vid' is courting a disaster a decade down the line.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-23 06:45am

Interesting little op-ed on the way this crisis is exposing the flawed underpinnings of the American mythology. I'm not so sure about communitarianism as an effective response, though - not unless the community is defined so broadly as to be useless or it has an enormous injection of solidarity politics to keep out the inevitable Fuck You, Got Ours approach some of the communities will embrace.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-23 06:58am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-23 06:23am
That kind of herd immunity approach is so incredibly irresponsible even if we accept the initial premise. The risk of long term complications from coronaviruses is still badly understood but there's more and more evidence for serious long term disability stemming from all sorts of viral infection that an pproach that says 'fuck yeah gimme that Vid' is courting a disaster a decade down the line.
My impression of Cummings is that he's the sort of edgy techbro type who'd solve that problem by witholding treatment from anyone who might be left unfit for work afterwards, killing two birds with one stone by easing the structural unemployment problem.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-23 07:01am

Zaune wrote:
2020-03-23 06:17am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-23 05:50am
There was a fair bit of furor on twitter about that from the UK the other day, where they've apparently had the same thing happen and had it yanked off the shelves in pharmacies to keep it from being totally depleted. Apparently the only possible reason to remove it from the shelves is the deep state wanting to kill people, and not the risk of shortage and the potentially serious side effects when people with no medical training try to use it off label with disregard for dosage instructions.
That Johnson's favourite policy advisor seemingly fancies himself a HARD MAN who makes HARD DECISIONS probably isn't helping...

Image

Direct link if that doesn't show up: https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/stat ... 2581303296
Sigh. I take it back. Trump's response isn't the worst.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-23 07:36am

Rand Paul just became the first Senator to test positive:

https://globalnews.ca/news/715636/rand- ... ronavirus/

Considering that he is one of eight Republican Senators to vote against the testing and paid sick leave bill, and the ONLY one to vote against an earlier bill, I'd say he came down not so much with COVID-19 as with a case of karma.

Unfortunately, the worthless cumbucket also reportedly was going out in public while awaiting test results, despite being one of the lucky rich who doesn't actually have to.

Two House members have also now tested positive.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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