Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

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Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-09 03:26pm

Well, the Inspector General just delivered their report on the Russia probe, focussing specifically on the start of the Russia investigation and the FISA applications, and while it does note some errors made by the FBI, it concludes that the investigation was both justified and without political bias. It also concluded that the FBI followed the rules, though recommended changes to those rules. And it refuted the conspiracy theory that the FBI illegally spied on Trump's campaign.

https://cnn.com/2019/12/09/politics/ig- ... index.html
Washington (CNN)The Justice Department's inspector general found that the FBI properly opened its investigation into Russian election interference but said there were major errors in how the agency conducted the probe.

The report released Monday by inspector general Michael Horowitz did not find "documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced the decisions" to open investigations that initially focused on campaign advisers Carter Page, George Papadopoulos, Michael Flynn and former campaign chairman Paul Manafort.
While rebutting President Donald Trump's claims that the FBI illegally spied on his campaign, Horowitz's 435-page report criticized the FBI leaders and employees for how they handled four applications for surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act targeting Page.
Horowitz opened the probe early last year, and his office has reviewed more than 1 million records and conducted more than 100 interviews as part of its review, including a number of current and former law enforcement officials at the center of "deep state" conspiracies.
But Attorney General William Barr disputed Horowitz's finding that the FBI properly opened a full investigation, called Crossfire Hurricane, based on the evidence it had in July 2016.
READ: Justice Department inspector general report on FBI Russia probe
READ: Justice Department inspector general report on FBI Russia probe
"The inspector general's report now makes clear that the FBI launched an intrusive investigation of a US presidential campaign on the thinnest of suspicions, that, in my view, were insufficient to justify the steps taken," Barr said in a statement Monday. "It is also clear that, from its inception the evidence produced by the investigation was consistently exculpatory."
Veteran prosecutor John Durham, who is conducting a larger investigation of the Russia probe, also disputed the IG's findings.
The inspector general's report details 17 "significant inaccuracies and omissions" in the four Page FISA applications, but the inspector general's report doesn't support Barr's suggestion that the entire investigation lacked merit.
Horowitz said his report only examined the opening of the investigation and the Page surveillance along with the use of confidential human sources.
Horowitz found that the FBI followed existing rules, but Horowitz recommended that changes be made, including that the FBI consult top Justice officials before more intrusive investigative steps are taken in investigations dealing with major political campaigns.
The report is certain to be weaponized by Republicans who have been battling back weeks of bad headlines about the President's pressure campaign against the Ukrainians and an ongoing impeachment inquiry.
"I.G. report out tomorrow. That will be the big story!" Trump tweeted Sunday.
FISA surveillance
Horowitz's investigation centered on a series of warrants that the FBI filed with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court as they sought to investigate Page, a one-time foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign.
The warrants were signed by top Justice Department officials, including former FBI Director James Comey, and stated that the FBI believed that Page "has been collaborating and conspiring with the Russian government," according to redacted copies released last year.
To bolster their request to the surveillance court, the FBI relied at times on claims about the Trump campaign collected in a dossier of unverified intelligence reports by former British spy Christopher Steele.
The FBI wrote in the applications that Steele had a history of providing reliable information to the FBI and that they believed that the reporting of his that they cited was "credible." But FBI investigators noted in later iterations of the warrant that they had severed their relationship with Steele because he shared some of his findings with news organizations.
Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee who released findings on a study of the FISA warrants have accused the FBI of improperly withholding information from the surveillance court about Steele's political beliefs, as well as the fact that his work was backed financially at one point by the Democratic National Committee and the presidential campaign of Hillary Clinton.
Horowitz's office interviewed Steele as part of its investigation.
Horowitz, who took office in 2012 after an appointment from President Barack Obama, has built a reputation as a thorough investigator who has the ability to rankle Democrats and Republicans alike.
His office's blockbuster report into the FBI's handling of the investigations of Hillary Clinton, released in 2018, excoriated Comey for "extraordinary and insubordinate" moves that, along with the revelation of Strzok and Pages text messages, did lasting damage to the FBI's reputation, although ultimately concluded that their actions were not motivated by political bias.
Horowitz also released a report in August finding that Comey violated FBI policies when he retained and leaked a set of memos he took documenting meetings with Trump in 2017.
The inspector general is scheduled to appear before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday.
Conclusions
The report accused a former FBI lawyer of altering a document related to the Page surveillance That lawyer is under criminal investigation.
While it's unclear how significant a role the altered document played in the FBI's investigation of Page, Horowitz did not determine that it undermined the overall validity of the surveillance, sources said.
The report concluded that officials at the FBI had enough information to properly launch the investigation in 2016, and dispel the claim that US intelligence agencies tried to plant spies in the Trump campaign.
Trump has boosted that narrative without evidence for months and popularized the term "Spy-gate." The conspiracy is a frequent topic in the conservative media and often revolves around Joseph Mifsud, a secretive Maltese professor who played a role in the origins of the FBI's counterintelligence investigation.
Mifsud had interactions with George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign adviser who pleaded guilty in 2017 to making false statements to the FBI.
US intelligence agencies were said to have told Horowitz that Misfud was not an asset for Western intelligence agencies, which is a claim spread by Papadopoulos and other conservative figures.
FBI Director Christopher Wray touted the inspector general's claim that the Russia investigation was opened properly in an interview with ABC News on Monday.
"I think it's important that the Inspector General found that in this particular instance the investigation was opened with appropriate predication and authorization," Wray said, a reaction that puts him at odds with Barr, his boss.
Lisa Page and Peter Strzok
Horowitz's report also explores the specific roles of a number of controversial FBI officials involved in the early days of the Russia probe, including Peter Strzok, a former senior counterintelligence officer, Lisa Page, an attorney, Andrew McCabe, the former deputy director, and Comey, the former director, who have since left the law enforcement agency under a pall.
Strzok, who had an extramarital affair with Page and exchanged anti-Trump messages with her on an FBI phone, was fired, as was McCabe, who had been accused of lying about contacts with a reporter in a separate investigation by Horowitz's office. Both men have sued the agency in relation to their departures.
Horowitz specifically said Strzok and Page did not affect the start of the investigation or didn't act out of political bias.
"While Lisa Page attended some of the discussions regarding the opening of the investigations, she did not play a role in the decision to open Crossfire Hurricane or the four individual cases," Horowitz wrote.
"We further found that while Strzok was directly involved in the decisions to open Crossfire Hurricane and the four individual cases, he was not the sole, or even the highest-level, decision maker as to any of those matters," the IG added.
The decision to open the investigation was made by Bill Priestap, who was Strzok's supervisor, after he spoke with the FBI director, general counsel and other top agency leaders.
"We concluded that Priestap's exercise of discretion in opening the investigation was in compliance with Department and FBI policies, and we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced his decision," the report states.
Lisa Page tweeted in response: "The sum total of findings by IG Horowitz that my personal opinions had any bearing on the course of either the Clinton or Russia investigations? Zero and Zero. Cool, cool."
FBI interactions with Trump campaign
Horowitz also revealed new interactions between FBI investigators and the Trump campaign that are certain to inflame Republicans who have claimed Trump's team was spied on.
In August 2016, just months before the presidential election, an FBI supervisor who oversaw the burgeoning counterintelligence investigation attended a briefing that intelligence officials were giving to the Trump campaign, in part so that the FBI supervisor could observe Michael Flynn, a former general who had taken on a leading national security role in the campaign.
The agent later wrote a memo recording his observations at the meeting of Flynn, who at the time had fallen under scrutiny of FBI investigators.
Horowitz found that the interaction didn't violate Justice Department regulations, but said that it had the potential to undermine the trust in future such campaign briefings.
Overall, Horowitz determined that the President's campaign was not improperly "spied" on, but the report does document multiple interactions between members of the Trump campaign and FBI sources.
One of the FBI covert interactions involved a high-ranking Trump campaign official who was not under investigation at the time, Horowitz wrote. The campaign official is not named in the report.
More to come
The report will not be the final word on the Russia investigation's legitimacy, and Trump has already foreshadowed a separate investigation being conducted out of the Justice Department by Durham.
That probe was launched earlier this year by Attorney General William Barr, a longtime skeptic of the Russia probe. People familiar with Barr's thinking have told CNN that despite the conclusions in the Horowitz report, Barr still has questions about some of the intelligence and other information the FBI used to pursue the Russia investigation, and he has been telling allies to wait for Durham, who he thinks will provide a more complete accounting.
In a statement, Durham said he has the "utmost respect" for the inspector general, but noted his investigation will be more comprehensive.
"Our investigation has included developing information from other persons and entities, both in the US and outside of the US," Durham said.
This story is breaking and will be updated.
Naturally, Barr is disputing his own IG's findings, and Republicans will jump on the criticism of more minor errors as proof that their Deep State conspiracy theories are true and that their political purges of the DOJ and FBI are justified. I expect the Inspector General will probably also be fired/pressured to resign by Trump before long, and that because he was an Obama appointee, that will be used as "proof" that he is part of the "Deep State".

The truth, however, is that this is a clear refutation of the idea that the Russia probe was meritless or politically-motivated.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-09 05:43pm

Probably the weirdest and most unexpected thing about this report is that it claims Steele, author of the dossier which included the "golden shower" story (and a whole lot of other stuff that actually has been corroborated), was in fact a personal friend of Ivanka Trump:

https://theguardian.com/us-news/2019/de ... lationship
The former MI6 officer Christopher Steele had a “personal” relationship with Ivanka Trump and gifted her a “family tartan from Scotland” as a present, the long-awaited report by US Department of Justice inspector general, Michael Horowitz, revealed on Monday.

Horowitz’s review of the FBI’s 2016 investigation into Donald Trump’s 2016 election campaign and its links with Russia includes fresh details of Steele’s interactions with the FBI, and startling claims about his relationship with the Trumps dating back to the period before he wrote a controversial dossier on Trump.

Barr defends Trump as report clears FBI of illegal surveillance – live updates
Read more
The report did not mention Ivanka Trump by name but her identity was revealed by ABC News.

The report said that contrary to what Donald Trump has claimed on Twitter Steele was actually “favorably disposed” to the Trump family. It was “ridiculous” to suggest he was biased against the then Republican candidate or that his memos on collusion, written at the behest of the Washington-based research firm Fusion GPS, were in any way biased, Steele told federal investigators.

Steele said he had visited Ivanka Trump at Trump Tower and had been “friendly” with her for “some years”. He described their relationship as “personal”. The former British government spy had even given her a “family tartan from Scotland” as a present, the report quoted him as saying.

ABC also reported that Ivanka Trump even discussed work that Steele’s firm – Orbis Business Intelligence – might do for the Trump family business.

Earlier this year Steele met with members of the inspector general’s team in London and spoke to investigators via Skype. He handed over memos setting out his two meetings in 2016 with the FBI, in which he passed on his dossier which said that the Russians had been seeking to cultivate Trump for some years, and had secretly compromised him in a Moscow hotel room.

Horowitz’s conclusions were sent to Orbis ahead of the report’s publication on Monday. This prompted Steele to issue an unusual statement via his lawyers pushing back against some of the inspector general’s key claims.

The report concludes the FBI placed too much emphasis on Steele’s work. It said Steele’s reporting was not done “in bad faith” but sometimes showed a “lack of judgement” and could involve pursuing people with “political risk but no intelligence value”.

On Monday Steele’s Washington-based law firm, Bredhoff & Kaiser, issued a lengthy rebuttal of Horowitz’s findings and defended Steele’s professional work.

It said that the Trump-Russia memos written by Steele in 2016 were derived from “credible and reliable” human sources. Subsequently his reporting was “extensively corroborated”, the lawyers said.

Some of this confirmation came from testimony given by Carter Page, Trump’s former foreign policy aide.

Page is at the centre of the Horowitz review. The president appointed Horowitz after Republicans claimed Page was the victim of “illegal” FBI spying in 2016, with a surveillance warrant issued by a federal court in part because of the dossier. The report finds that the FBI made multiple mistakes and errors in its handling of the Page case.

Page admitted that in 2016 he met with senior officials from the Kremlin and the oil firm Rosneft in Moscow. This was what the dossier reported, Steele’s lawyers pointed out. They added that Steele’s memos – published by BuzzFeed – were never “meant to be made public”. The report further quotes Steele as saying his field work was meant to be “briefed off of orally” rather than consumed as a “written product”.

Donald Trump has repeatedly blasted Steele on Twitter, describing him as a “failed spy” and his dossier as “phoney”.

The dossier says Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, launched a multi-faceted campaign to boost Trump ahead of the 2016 election. Robert Mueller confirmed “sweeping and systematic” Russian interference but cleared Trump of engaging in a criminal-level conspiracy.
While it doesn't say much for Steele's taste in friends, that does nicely undermine the idea that Steele was biased against the Trump family.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Raw Shark » 2019-12-11 03:21pm

Well, I'm not exactly best friends with the husband of the married woman who I've been fucking lately. Pretty sure he wants to kill me. To be fair to her and myself, she told him she wanted a divorce before we slept together, but after we started talking, so I am not going to feel more than maybe 50% responsible.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-12-11 05:00pm

Raw Shark wrote:
2019-12-11 03:21pm
Well, I'm not exactly best friends with the husband of the married woman who I've been fucking lately. Pretty sure he wants to kill me. To be fair to her and myself, she told him she wanted a divorce before we slept together, but after we started talking, so I am not going to feel more than maybe 50% responsible.
Shark? I think you posted that in the wrong thread...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by FireNexus » 2019-12-11 06:59pm

I don’t think he did. :-P
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Raw Shark » 2019-12-11 07:55pm

No, that was as I intended. Messy affairs happen. Real thing. Pretty sure that's what happened in the situation described in this article. At least (in my case) her husband isn't the Commander In Chief, so I've got that going for me, which is nice. [/Caddyshack]

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-11 09:28pm

Well they don't actually say Steele and Ivanka were fucking, though I suppose "personal relationship" sounds a lot like a euphemism.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by aerius » 2019-12-12 10:55am

This actually happened
You can see the actual video at the link
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1205125400541548545

Image

The report claims no rules were broken.
Well I guess that's true, because apparently there isn't a rule of law anymore in America.

On the bright side you're closer to equality now; fabricating evidence to get convictions isn't just for black people and poor minorities anymore.
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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by bilateralrope » 2019-12-12 01:17pm

How exactly did that lawyer alter the email ?

Because I've heard people saying that they would have got the FISA renewal if the email was unaltered. That all he did was add a single line, without specifying what line was added. Which seems an important detail.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-12 09:59pm

aerius wrote:
2019-12-12 10:55am
This actually happened
You can see the actual video at the link
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1205125400541548545

Image

The report claims no rules were broken.
Well I guess that's true, because apparently there isn't a rule of law anymore in America.

On the bright side you're closer to equality now; fabricating evidence to get convictions isn't just for black people and poor minorities anymore.
You're citing Ted fucking Cruz as a source on this?

aerius, I'd honestly respect you just marginally more if you just admitted that you are a Trumper.

You're right about their being no rule of law, though, since the President can manufacture a false conspiracy theory to carry out a political purge of the DOJ and FBI.

Go on and whine that I'm lying and trolling, so people won't notice that you're shilling for fascism again.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by aerius » 2019-12-12 10:31pm

In TRR loonie-land, a video clip from the ACTUAL FUCKING HEARING is not a valid source.
Your Inspector General admitted in front of the entire fucking House that it's totally fine for the FBI to doctor a bunch of evidence to get an investigation rolling.
Tell me why Horowitz along with everyone involved in the evidence tampering shouldn't be shitcanned, prosecuted, and jailed?
He just fucking admitted to it, and the video evidence is right there. If you actually believe in a rule of law you break out the handcuffs for all of them.
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Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by bilateralrope » 2019-12-12 10:49pm

aerius wrote:
2019-12-12 10:31pm
Tell me why Horowitz along with everyone involved in the evidence tampering shouldn't be shitcanned, prosecuted, and jailed?
How many people were involved in the evidence tampering ?

Sure, throw the book at those involved. But I want to know the specifics of the tampering before I can see how it taints the rest of the investigation/FBI.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-12 11:02pm

aerius wrote:
2019-12-12 10:31pm
In TRR loonie-land, a video clip from the ACTUAL FUCKING HEARING is not a valid source.
Your Inspector General admitted in front of the entire fucking House that it's totally fine for the FBI to doctor a bunch of evidence to get an investigation rolling.
Tell me why Horowitz along with everyone involved in the evidence tampering shouldn't be shitcanned, prosecuted, and jailed?
He just fucking admitted to it, and the video evidence is right there. If you actually believe in a rule of law you break out the handcuffs for all of them.
If you believed in the rule of law, you'd be calling for the arrest of Donald Trump at least as fervently as you denounce his critics and opponents.

The investigation was opened because of statements Papadopolous made to a diplomat, which were forwarded to the FBI, about Russia offering aid to the Trump campaign.

There were some errors made subsequent to that to get FISA warrants. There is, however, no evidence that they were politically-motivated, nor that they violated procedure. This is according to the report you are hysterically spinning, in a performance worthy of William Barr, as proof of a Deep State Conspiracy to take down the Dear Leader take which is taken straight from the Trump administration's propaganda.

There is an argument, perhaps, for revising procedure, but errors also happen, in every large-scale project or organization, and that is NOT the same as "doctoring" evidence.

How dare you invoke the rule of law to try to justify Trump's efforts to place himself above it?

Of course, you're not really doing this out of loyalty to Trump, are you? No, you think you're being progressive, don't you? Because the West/America is evil, and Russia is against them, and therefore Russia is good, and everything Russia does is right, and no lie is too low, no abuse too egregious, no crime too vile, no fascist too evil to defend if its defends Russia or damages its critics.

Or maybe you're just a troll who gets off on watching the world burn. I find that increasingly likely.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by aerius » 2019-12-13 12:22am

bilateralrope wrote:
2019-12-12 01:17pm
How exactly did that lawyer alter the email ?
I don't know and I'm not willing to spend the time to dig it up, assuming the documents are actually available.
Because I've heard people saying that they would have got the FISA renewal if the email was unaltered. That all he did was add a single line, without specifying what line was added. Which seems an important detail.
The problem is they did tamper with the evidence chain, even if the original unaltered email was good enough for the FISA warrants, tampering with it screws up the evidence chain and invalidates both the warrant and any information obtained as result of the warrant. You just don't do that, it basically guarantees that the entire thing will be thrown out by the Senate if it gets that far. I don't know how they can be that fucking dumb, it's like they're trying to fail and shitting all over the rule of law at the same time.
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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-13 12:31am

I love how you flat-out admit you can't be bothered to source your conspiracy theory, and don't even know if sources exist.

Here's what probably actually happened: some fallible humans made some mistakes, and have now been duly called to account for it. No massive Deep State conspiracy to frame Russia and Trump, no sinister plot against the rule of law by the FBI, no fake witch hunt. But that doesn't make as good a story, does it?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Patroklos » 2019-12-13 11:50am

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... f_amp=true

The FBI altered the content of another agencies memo so that instead of saying Carter was a source against Russia, it rather said he was not.

Obviously being a source against Russian spies is highly exculpatory information against charges you are a Russian spy. That was not convienient to investigators, so they forged a document saying otherwise and knowingly submitted it.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-14 01:49am

Patroklos wrote:
2019-12-13 11:50am
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... f_amp=true

The FBI altered the content of another agencies memo so that instead of saying Carter was a source against Russia, it rather said he was not.

Obviously being a source against Russian spies is highly exculpatory information against charges you are a Russian spy. That was not convienient to investigators, so they forged a document saying otherwise and knowingly submitted it.
Your source is a rabid pro-Trump Alt. Reich rag, no more credible than Fox, Brietbart, Infowars, or the White House's own press statements.

Come back when you have a real source.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by aerius » 2019-12-14 11:09am

Are you also going to claim the NY Times isn't a valid source because you don't like what they have to say?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/p ... ation.html

Excerpt:
Among the problems: The F.B.I. never told the Justice Department, which thus never told the court that granted permission for the wiretaps, that Mr. Page had for years been providing information to the C.I.A. about his prior contacts with Russian officials — including an encounter cited in the application as a reason to be suspicious of him. That might have made his history less suspicious.

The F.B.I.’s omission of Mr. Page’s contacts with the C.I.A. relates to the criminal referral that Mr. Horowitz made about an F.B.I. lawyer assigned to assist the Russia investigation team. He found that the lawyer, whom people familiar with the inquiry have identified as Kevin Clinesmith, altered an email from the C.I.A. to a colleague during a renewal application. (The report identified neither Mr. Clinesmith nor the C.I.A. by name.)

An F.B.I. official who had to sign an affidavit attesting to the accuracy and completeness of a court filing had specifically asked about any relationship with the C.I.A. Mr. Clinesmith altered the email so that it stated that Mr. Page was “not a source,” contributing to the Justice Department’s failure to discuss his relationship with the C.I.A. in a renewal application.
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-15 01:44am

aerius wrote:
2019-12-14 11:09am
Are you also going to claim the NY Times isn't a valid source because you don't like what they have to say?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/p ... ation.html

Excerpt:
Among the problems: The F.B.I. never told the Justice Department, which thus never told the court that granted permission for the wiretaps, that Mr. Page had for years been providing information to the C.I.A. about his prior contacts with Russian officials — including an encounter cited in the application as a reason to be suspicious of him. That might have made his history less suspicious.

The F.B.I.’s omission of Mr. Page’s contacts with the C.I.A. relates to the criminal referral that Mr. Horowitz made about an F.B.I. lawyer assigned to assist the Russia investigation team. He found that the lawyer, whom people familiar with the inquiry have identified as Kevin Clinesmith, altered an email from the C.I.A. to a colleague during a renewal application. (The report identified neither Mr. Clinesmith nor the C.I.A. by name.)

An F.B.I. official who had to sign an affidavit attesting to the accuracy and completeness of a court filing had specifically asked about any relationship with the C.I.A. Mr. Clinesmith altered the email so that it stated that Mr. Page was “not a source,” contributing to the Justice Department’s failure to discuss his relationship with the C.I.A. in a renewal application.
And yet, apparently, the Inspector General found merely errors or violations of procedure, not crimes. There's no getting around that. Maybe the rules need to be tightened here, fair enough. But if "its not technically provably a crime" works as a defense for Trump on Russian collusion, it can damn well work as a defense for the agents investigating him or his associates.

Omitting information could also concievably be an honest error, at least in some instances, though that's obviously a hard case to make for actual alterations.

But more importantly, while focussing on the issues with obtaining the FISA warrants, you are ignoring the far more significant conclusion- which is that regardless of subsequent mistakes made in the investigation, the actual decision to open an investigation was justified and unbiased.

You hear that? The decision to open an investigation into Russia-gate was justified and non-biased. That's the key takeaway here, however much you try to focus on more minor issues to cloud that main point.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Patroklos » 2019-12-15 02:10am

Who are you trying to convince TRR?

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-15 02:18am

Patroklos wrote:
2019-12-15 02:10am
Who are you trying to convince TRR?
I'm speaking up for the facts as I see them, and trying to show a more fair and nuanced viewpoint

I have no hope of convincing a dedicated destructionist like aerius, or a dedicated Trumper such as yourself (yes, yes, you'll insist you aren't a Trumper, but if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks doubleplusgood duckspeak like a duck, I'm gonna call it a fucking duck). I have neither the training nor experience to deprogram a cult member, and I'm not going to try.

The most I can hope for is that some impartial person will read this and get a more truthful perspective. If not, then I'll have to be content with shouting into the void for the principle of the thing.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by aerius » 2019-12-15 08:45am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-12-15 01:44am
But more importantly, while focussing on the issues with obtaining the FISA warrants, you are ignoring the far more significant conclusion- which is that regardless of subsequent mistakes made in the investigation, the actual decision to open an investigation was justified and unbiased.

You hear that? The decision to open an investigation into Russia-gate was justified and non-biased. That's the key takeaway here, however much you try to focus on more minor issues to cloud that main point.
You do not know how a criminal investigation works. It doesn't matter if the investigation was fully justified and the evidence found as a result of granting the FISA warrants is all solid. The fact is they lied and tampered with evidence to obtain those warrants in the first place, which means both the warrants and any evidence found as a result of them is now invalid. And if the Republicans in the Senate have any working brains they'll have the entire thing thrown out on this exact basis. You want Trump impeached? Fine, but you don't go around casually violating the 4th Amendment to build a case against him when it could've and should've been done by the book. You had one job, and you fucked it up.
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aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Tvpnbb » 2019-12-15 11:07am

aerius wrote:
2019-12-15 08:45am
You do not know how a criminal investigation works. It doesn't matter if the investigation was fully justified and the evidence found as a result of granting the FISA warrants is all solid. The fact is they lied and tampered with evidence to obtain those warrants in the first place, which means both the warrants and any evidence found as a result of them is now invalid. And if the Republicans in the Senate have any working brains they'll have the entire thing thrown out on this exact basis. You want Trump impeached? Fine, but you don't go around casually violating the 4th Amendment to build a case against him when it could've and should've been done by the book. You had one job, and you fucked it up.
Wait, what? The Republicans should have the current impeachment process opened by the Congress, which is based on the allegation that Trump tried to influence Ukraine to harass a political rival, "thrown out" because the FBI's Trump-Russia investigation, a separate investigation, might have been opened on improper grounds? :wtf:

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by Patroklos » 2019-12-15 11:42am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-12-15 02:18am
Patroklos wrote:
2019-12-15 02:10am
Who are you trying to convince TRR?
I'm speaking up for the facts as I see them, and trying to show a more fair and nuanced viewpoint

I have no hope of convincing a dedicated destructionist like aerius, or a dedicated Trumper such as yourself (yes, yes, you'll insist you aren't a Trumper, but if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks doubleplusgood duckspeak like a duck, I'm gonna call it a fucking duck). I have neither the training nor experience to deprogram a cult member, and I'm not going to try.

The most I can hope for is that some impartial person will read this and get a more truthful perspective. If not, then I'll have to be content with shouting into the void for the principle of the thing.
So you accuse me of somthing without evidence, declare you can't provide evidence, and then quibble along as if you are the reasonable one.

Aso always, provide a quote. If it's so obvious, this should be walk in the park for you. Or you can continue tilting at windmills for my enjoyment.

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Re: Justice Department Inspector General rules Russia probe "justified and unbiased".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-15 03:23pm

Tvpnbb wrote:
2019-12-15 11:07am
aerius wrote:
2019-12-15 08:45am
You do not know how a criminal investigation works. It doesn't matter if the investigation was fully justified and the evidence found as a result of granting the FISA warrants is all solid. The fact is they lied and tampered with evidence to obtain those warrants in the first place, which means both the warrants and any evidence found as a result of them is now invalid. And if the Republicans in the Senate have any working brains they'll have the entire thing thrown out on this exact basis. You want Trump impeached? Fine, but you don't go around casually violating the 4th Amendment to build a case against him when it could've and should've been done by the book. You had one job, and you fucked it up.
Wait, what? The Republicans should have the current impeachment process opened by the Congress, which is based on the allegation that Trump tried to influence Ukraine to harass a political rival, "thrown out" because the FBI's Trump-Russia investigation, a separate investigation, might have been opened on improper grounds? :wtf:
You see, to people like aerius, they're all part of the same Deep State conspiracy to frame Donald Trump/Russia, and discrediting any aspect of any investigation discredits them all, because they're arguing by character attacks. Facts don't matter, evidence doesn't matter. They argue entirely by vague inferences and ad hominems.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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