Darth Vader inside a Cube

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-05 07:29am

Darth Vader is set loose on a Borg Cube. What happens ?

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 08:22am

Set loose on a Borg cube with what goal? Capture? Survival? Destroying it?

Capture: His chances aren't good unless he can get control of their collective (hacking in or something - technobabble, basically). They can't negotiate, so the light saber will just kill more and more of them until he starves to death or accidentally slices through the wrong thing (plasma conduit, external hull, etc.). And if those assimilation tubules can get through any part of his suit, the Borg will have some new technical and medical treats.

Survival: Still not good. Even if he can access Borg computers, they may simply not have the tech to support his systems, and we've never seen them replicate food (or does Vader have to eat?).

Destroying it: Technobabble, flying it into something nasty, or years and years of slicing and dicing.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-10-05 11:23am

first any borg who tries to touch Vader is going to get flung into the bulkhead second FORCE CHOKE!. Vader will use this to kill anything he can't with his lightsaber. Vader's suit would prottect him from the stupid nanotubuals, why, its ARMORED. that's why. Basically Vader is wearing Stromtrooper Armor with built in life support. The Borg might mistaken him for one of their own at the start. Vader is mostly machine rather than man. As such Vader would not need much food and his suit could proably sustain him. If he was running low he could retreat to his shuttle(you think he beamed over) to refresh himself. of course with his suit he is pretty much safe and unless the borg dan bash down a blast door they are not getting in. If Destruction of the cube is his goal he wouldn't bother boarding it anyway his shuttle's weapons could do for his so why bother. He can see into their minds so he would know that Capture will take a while so naturally he would bring along some stormtroopers with him. To survive Vader just needs to keep on killing.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-10-05 11:25am

Depends on the size of the cube.

If it's a 1 x 1 x 1 meter cube he's gonna be pretty uncomfortable.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-10-05 11:27am

Slartibartfast wrote:Depends on the size of the cube.

If it's a 1 x 1 x 1 meter cube he's gonna be pretty uncomfortable.

Oh oh oh, Very funny you know excatally what he was refeering to!

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-10-05 01:53pm

Of course Vader still needs to eat and drink; he may be part machine, but he's still human. It's probably done intravenously. And I doubt Vader suddenly invented the transporter for this mission; if he wants to go back to the ship he's gonna be hoofin' it to the airlock over and over again. That said...

Vader can effortlessly slice through any Borg that try and get in his way. They won't be a problem. Hell, Vader could easily kill every single Borg onboard the cube, considering they lack any sort of ranged weapons, group tactics of any kind, and that they'll just lurch towards Vader one by one and get hacked to pieces. They have no resistance to his lightsaber, their forcefields won't work (Vader can cut himself a new path), and they don't have enough initiative to, say, blow off the compartment Vader's in into space or burn it off with phasers.

Accessing their systems may be tricky. Perhaps if he had an R2 unit with him he could handle it, but alone he's tough outta luck. Then again one of his Force talents may be to read minds so he could learn how their systems worked (Jerec easily found the location of the Valley of the Jedi's location by probing Qu Rahn's mind, for example) but tapping into the minds of trillions of beings of the Collective might be a bit too much even for a Sith Lord to handle.

Of course, once he's conquered the cube, he could just call a group of Imperial techies from his shuttle...It all depends I guess.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-05 02:22pm

I am not willing to say the fangs (er, nanotubules) can't penetrate his suit. But it doesn't really matter. Every Borg that comes near is doomed.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-10-05 02:54pm

I think it would go like this

Vader on the ship

"We are the Borg, Resistance is Futile"

Vader raises what's left of an eyebrow

Every Borg drone within 50 meters start having there necks snap.

A Drone raises a weapon (some have them) and fires
Vader turns and deflects it into the Drone.

A borg lurches out to assimliate him
Lightsaber takes off the arm

Borg start coming in mass
Vader picks them all up and throws them backwards with the Force

The Borg have a brain-cell moment and decompress the ship.
Vader stands there and uses the Darkside to be unaffected
(He resisted that in a Marvel Comic, and they are canon).
No idea if Vader can survive without air, but he did survive being in a Tie Fighter for over a month without supplies and hyperdrive (again, Marvel Comics)
(He also survived his Tie Fighter at full throttle slamming into an ice asteroid and exploding. Damn, he's a tough bastard)

I'd say Vader would end up killing the Borg left, right and center.

Added note
Who says he couldn't fight the Borg nanoprobes with the Force. Remember, Cighal, a padawan, was able to use the Force to remove nanodestroyers (same thing) from Mon Mothma, and Cighal did it one at a time. I can easily envision Vader basically grabbing a shit load of them with the force and tossing them out of his body. After all, Vader wouldn't care about the pain

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 04:45pm

Isolder74 wrote:first any borg who tries to touch Vader is going to get flung into the bulkhead second FORCE CHOKE!. Vader will use this to kill anything he can't with his lightsaber. Vader's suit would prottect him from the stupid nanotubuals, why, its ARMORED. that's why. Basically Vader is wearing Stromtrooper Armor with built in life support. The Borg might mistaken him for one of their own at the start. Vader is mostly machine rather than man. As such Vader would not need much food and his suit could proably sustain him. If he was running low he could retreat to his shuttle(you think he beamed over) to refresh himself. of course with his suit he is pretty much safe and unless the borg dan bash down a blast door they are not getting in. If Destruction of the cube is his goal he wouldn't bother boarding it anyway his shuttle's weapons could do for his so why bother. He can see into their minds so he would know that Capture will take a while so naturally he would bring along some stormtroopers with him. To survive Vader just needs to keep on killing.

Evilcat didn't give Vader a shuttle, or any outside support. And what evidence have you that Borg tubules can't get through his suit? We've only seen them blocked by Species 8472 mini-forcefields about which nothing is known.

And we've never seen Vader force-smack hundreds or even dozens of people at once.

And no, the Borg can't mistake him for one of their own because they'd detect/see him and realize, "hey, that one doesn't look like one of us, use any of our tech, or have a connection to our mind."

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-10-05 04:51pm

About Vader's suit blocking off the injection tubules: it's been said that they are capable of penetrating any material and energy field. If he does get injected, he will need to fight the nanoprobes internally. And, Metrion Cascade, I don't believe those were forcefields repulsing the drone. I think it was the effect of the Borg tech being rejected by the 8472 immune response.

That said, Vader kicks the ass of every drone on the cube, with an understandable amount of collateral damage to the ship. (Lightsabers can be so messy!)

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 04:56pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Of course Vader still needs to eat and drink; he may be part machine, but he's still human. It's probably done intravenously. And I doubt Vader suddenly invented the transporter for this mission; if he wants to go back to the ship he's gonna be hoofin' it to the airlock over and over again. That said...

Vader can effortlessly slice through any Borg that try and get in his way. They won't be a problem. Hell, Vader could easily kill every single Borg onboard the cube, considering they lack any sort of ranged weapons, group tactics of any kind, and that they'll just lurch towards Vader one by one and get hacked to pieces. They have no resistance to his lightsaber, their forcefields won't work (Vader can cut himself a new path), and they don't have enough initiative to, say, blow off the compartment Vader's in into space or burn it off with phasers.

And what proof is there that the Borg couldn't "adapt" to the lightsaber? Does anyone even know what a lightsaber blade is or how the Borg adaptive ability works? And why not simply beam him off the ship or blow themselves up (God knows the Borg can spare a cube). And while I'm sure he could kill them all given enough time (and arbitrarily assuming his lightsaber isn't "adapted to"), it would take years without some larger weapons, crashing it, or technobabble.

Accessing their systems may be tricky. Perhaps if he had an R2 unit with him he could handle it, but alone he's tough outta luck. Then again one of his Force talents may be to read minds so he could learn how their systems worked (Jerec easily found the location of the Valley of the Jedi's location by probing Qu Rahn's mind, for example) but tapping into the minds of trillions of beings of the Collective might be a bit too much even for a Sith Lord to handle.

Assuming for the moment that individual Borg all think Basic (which I'll assume to be the same as English), and the controls can display it. And assuming that the Force exists in this hybrid universe (which I arbitrarily will assume, the Force being Vader's main tactical relevance). And if we've ever seen proof that Vader can Lwaxana explicit information out of people rather than moods and general intents (hate, malice, etc.). Hell, as zombified as Borg are, Vader may not even feel them as people or be able to find real minds active in them.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 05:00pm

Agent R wrote:About Vader's suit blocking off the injection tubules: it's been said that they are capable of penetrating any material and energy field. If he does get injected, he will need to fight the nanoprobes internally. And, Metrion Cascade, I don't believe those were forcefields repulsing the drone. I think it was the effect of the Borg tech being rejected by the 8472 immune response.

That said, Vader kicks the ass of every drone on the cube, with an understandable amount of collateral damage to the ship. (Lightsabers can be so messy!)

Yes, but the Doctor was only referring, of course, to materials and fields he'd heard of. So his statement means about as much as Picard's "We're immune to lasers." Picard was saying they were immune to all the laser fire that particular ship could deliver. And whether the Doctor realizes it or not, he's only referring to barriers he's heard of.

And no, I don't think Vader could kill every drone on the ship, even if the lightsaber is perfectly effective. There are just too many even for an unimpeded rampage.

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-10-05 05:10pm

What is Vader's suit made of anyway?

And yes, I suppose you're right. Not every drone may have the honor of being decapitated, dismembered, or killed in horrible, Force-related ways by the Dark Lord of the Sith. Adaptation to the saber is still a possibility, meaning he'll have to be more creative in killing however many he can kill.

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2003-10-05 05:33pm

Well, but what when Vader finally succumbs to the assimilation? Guess, those he killed beforehand found the easy way out and the Borg hivemind will never be the same again.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-10-05 05:40pm

How come i get this silly picture in my head of Vader just holding out his lightsaber and spining in a circle while drones march into him like some fucked up blender.
Vader would, in all likelyhood, be able to kill every borg on the cube, then die of old age trying to get back to coruscant.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 05:48pm

Isolder74 wrote:first any borg who tries to touch Vader is going to get flung into the bulkhead second FORCE CHOKE!.

Can't believe I missed this. Borg don't have to breathe - remember First Contact? The drones outside the ship weren't even protected from space, and the Queen wasn't even connected to her body (assuming it has lungs) the whole time.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-10-05 05:53pm

Metrion Cascade wrote:Can't believe I missed this. Borg don't have to breathe - remember First Contact? The drones outside the ship weren't even protected from space, and the Queen wasn't even connected to her body (assuming it has lungs) the whole time.

Throat-crushing. Neck-snapping. Etc.

Choking implies force being applied to the throat anyway. So just magnify that.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-10-05 05:55pm

He could also use the Force to cause Cerebral Hemorages all round. The head Night Sister could do this and she wasn't even a full Jedi/Sith.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-10-05 06:06pm

Whoa whoa, whoa. Let's say the borg "Adapt to the lightsaber?" So what? We've never seen vader toss dozens of people around at once. So what? He wouldn't really need to. Remember ESB? I do believe he grabbed large, heavy, metal things and tossed them at luke. there are many large heavy, metal things on a cube. and the borg are notorious for walking into battle war-of-1812-style. one large, heavy metal thing would be more than sufficient to keep them at bay/kill them. Barring that, he could use the body of a borg in place of the large, heavy, metal thing.
Vader fucking murders everything on board, point blank, not a single borg left alive. No one gets close enough to use the probes. If they do, force lightning. it's a slaughter. It isn't even fun for Vader, who eventually sprawls out in the corridor, filing his nails, casually flinging borg about like rag dolls, every now and then popping out his lightsaber to deflect phaser beams. No matter how you slice it, the borg cube is annihilated.

I'm sure, however that with no way off the cube and all borg on board dead, they would send another cube to....shall we say...rapidly disassemble the cube with the foreign body in it.
Vader still kicks ass, though.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-10-05 06:24pm

Metrion Cascade wrote:And what proof is there that the Borg couldn't "adapt" to the lightsaber?

Ah, the no limits fallacy. It's very well addressed-as are the Borg, on this page.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-10-05 06:31pm

YT300000 wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:And what proof is there that the Borg couldn't "adapt" to the lightsaber?
Ah, the no limits fallacy. It's very well addressed-as are the Borg, on this page.

Having not read that page in a while, I retract the part about the no limits fallacy, it isn't addressed there.

Basically, you can't adapt to a beam of pure energy (official sources pin that label on a sabre). The cube in STFC was destroyed because it took more damage than it could sustain, and could adapt no more.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 07:37pm

Chardok wrote:Whoa whoa, whoa. Let's say the borg "Adapt to the lightsaber?" So what? We've never seen vader toss dozens of people around at once. So what? He wouldn't really need to. Remember ESB? I do believe he grabbed large, heavy, metal things and tossed them at luke. there are many large heavy, metal things on a cube. and the borg are notorious for walking into battle war-of-1812-style. one large, heavy metal thing would be more than sufficient to keep them at bay/kill them. Barring that, he could use the body of a borg in place of the large, heavy, metal thing.
Vader fucking murders everything on board, point blank, not a single borg left alive. No one gets close enough to use the probes. If they do, force lightning. it's a slaughter. It isn't even fun for Vader, who eventually sprawls out in the corridor, filing his nails, casually flinging borg about like rag dolls, every now and then popping out his lightsaber to deflect phaser beams. No matter how you slice it, the borg cube is annihilated.

I'm sure, however that with no way off the cube and all borg on board dead, they would send another cube to....shall we say...rapidly disassemble the cube with the foreign body in it.
Vader still kicks ass, though.

Um...there aren't large unsecured (as in not part of the ship) metal things on Borg cubes. And the spaces tend to be a bit cramped. But no, Vader (or virtually any other corporeal being I can think of besides maybe Kes - and that's a stretch) would have no chance of survival without outside support. The ship would probably fall apart even if he killed all the drones needed to maintain it.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-05 07:41pm

The things in TESB were not unrestrained, either. Vader ripped them out of the walls.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 07:54pm

YT300000 wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:And what proof is there that the Borg couldn't "adapt" to the lightsaber?
Ah, the no limits fallacy. It's very well addressed-as are the Borg, on this page.

I never said there were no limits. But the Borg limit may be higher than the lightsaber's output. And there are some fun mistakes on that page, such as the writer failing to understand that Borg let loose to assimilate a given number of people will not assimilate them at a constant rate, but that the rate will increase with the number of drones that become available - the rate is more likely to be exponential. Assuming even distribution of drones and victims, and no resistance, of course.

Howedar wrote:The things in TESB were not unrestrained, either. Vader ripped them out of the walls.

Okay. But were these entire bulkheads or support beams that would cause a collapse or decompression if removed? Borg ships seem to be made of such structures - every console is built right into a thick-assed support.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-10-05 08:09pm

YT300000 wrote:
YT300000 wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:And what proof is there that the Borg couldn't "adapt" to the lightsaber?
Ah, the no limits fallacy. It's very well addressed-as are the Borg, on this page.
Having not read that page in a while, I retract the part about the no limits fallacy, it isn't addressed there.

Basically, you can't adapt to a beam of pure energy (official sources pin that label on a sabre). The cube in STFC was destroyed because it took more damage than it could sustain, and could adapt no more.

How do we know the Borg have never done that, and what constitutes pure energy? Perhaps what you get after hits from matter-antimatter weapons like photon torpedoes? The Borg can adapt to pure energy, making it easier to absorb through their shields. But I'm not saying they can therefore absorb any amount. In boxing, it's a common practice to "roll" with the punches, to move one's head with the impacting fist to decrease the amount of impulse imparted to one's skull (the equation for impulse includes a "time in contact" variable that's inversely proportional to the result). This will obviously not keep you conscious if you're hit hard enough - rolling gives you a safety margin, but a finite one. As does Borg "adaptation." It makes the shields more effective, but certainly not infinitely effective.

What happened in First Contact is hard to determine. Maybe the shields were completely down in that section (looked like it) and for some reason the fleet couldn't detect the hole. Or perhaps the Borg adapted to the weapons and the incoming firepower was still greater than their safety margin. This would have to be the case with a light saber for Vader to get any use out of it, and we don't know that a light saber has that kind of output. Your "pure energy" assertion is much like the "laser immunity" argument. It assumes that any pure energy at all is a deathblow, regardless of how much (or how little) of that energy is delivered (or the rate at which it's delivered).