Another example where people don't know how to read the Constitution.Parents challenge weekly Bible classes
STAUNTON, Virginia (AP) -- When Heather and Logan Ward's son entered public kindergarten this fall, they were shocked to discover that pupils were taken from class to a nearby church for weekly Bible lessons.
The Wards moved to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley from New York four years ago, and were unaware of the tradition that has remained in Staunton and other rural schools for more than 60 years.
"My reaction is exactly like the reaction of those who come here from a different place -- shock and disbelief that we have Bible classes in public schools," Heather Ward said.
Now the Wards and other parents are asking the school board to eliminate or modify the program, which shuttles first-, second- and third-graders to churches during class time for voluntary half-hour Christian lessons and activities.
But the would-be reformers have run into staunch resistance. More than 400 people showed up to weigh in on the issue at a contentious school board meeting in December, and more than 1,000 signed a petition urging the school board to keep the classes.
The six-member school board is scheduled to decide the issue Monday.
Jack Hinton, president of the local private group that offers the lessons, attributes the opposition to a small minority, many of them newcomers to the valley. Without religious classes, he said, "kids get into trouble and have no moral structure on which to combat drugs, sex, pornography and all that."
But many opponents are Staunton natives. They argue that children who opt out are stigmatized and have little to do while their classmates are in Bible classes, taking away precious time for academics in the age of standardized testing.
The Bible classes began in Virginia in 1929 after a majority of students failed a simple Bible test.
The lessons were conducted inside public school classrooms until 1948, when the Supreme Court ruled that the lessons violated the principle of separation of church and state. A few years later, the court revisited the issue and approved classes held away from school premises.
Most towns have done away with the classes, but the 20 school divisions that have kept the classes generally stretch along Interstate 81 in western Virginia, known to some as the state's "Bible Belt." In the Staunton area, more than 80 percent of first-, second- and third-graders participate.
"The people in those communities still have strong Christian faith and want their children to learn this," said JoAnne Shirley, state director of Weekday Religious Education, the private group that offers the lessons.
Although no lawsuits have been filed, the local chapter of the group has hired a lawyer, Gil Davis, who once represented Paula Jones in her sexual harassment lawsuit against President Clinton. The group also is working with the Rutherford Institute, a Charlottesville center that defends Christian rights.
Rutherford President John Whitehead said the classes "are wholly consistent with the First Amendment and this nation's religious heritage."
But opponents argue the classes are divisive, and the schools already have character-education classes, which teach children about right and wrong without religion.
"Christians don't have a monopoly on morality," says Renee Staton, a Staunton native whose husband is Jewish.
Beverly Ridell, who grew up going to the Staunton schools, teaches first- and second-grade Sunday school at church and opposes religious classes during school time.
"I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,' one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said.
"If Christians are good people, what are Jews? These are 6- and 7-year-old kids. This is an age where what's right and what's wrong are clear and unambiguous."
In nearby Waynesboro, 71 percent of pupils in the second through fourth grades participated in the classes last year, learning the Bible's take on the creation of the world and the parable of the Good Samaritan.
"From a complete-education aspect, it's important to have a basic Biblical knowledge of what some of the stories are from literature you read when you're older," said local WRE President Pam Stoneburner.
Hinton acknowledged that the struggle to keep the Bible classes might be partly based on a desire to cling to tradition in the face of a changing community.
"Tradition has the ability to make you a better person, make you a better citizen, make you involved with the positive aspects of a community," he said.
But parent Heather Ward thinks tradition must evolve.
"Unless we build a wall around our city, we're going to have to deal with the changing demographics," she said. "That's just part of modern life."
Some Think Public Schools Can Be Bible School
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Some Think Public Schools Can Be Bible School
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Jack Hinton, president of the local private group that offers the lessons, attributes the opposition to a small minority, many of them newcomers to the valley. Without religious classes, he said, "kids get into trouble and have no moral structure on which to combat drugs, sex, pornography and all that."
I am sick and tired of the bullshit where Christians think that only they can be good people. Christianity does NOT have a monopoly on morality and you can damned well learn to be a good person without being a Christian.But opponents argue the classes are divisive, and the schools already have character-education classes, which teach children about right and wrong without religion.
"Christians don't have a monopoly on morality," says Renee Staton, a Staunton native whose husband is Jewish.
Beverly Ridell, who grew up going to the Staunton schools, teaches first- and second-grade Sunday school at church and opposes religious classes during school time.
"I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,' one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said.
"If Christians are good people, what are Jews? These are 6- and 7-year-old kids. This is an age where what's right and what's wrong are clear and unambiguous."
This is nothing less then religious indoctrination on school time. A total violation of the first amendment. School is being used to push Christianity.
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The district should be counting their blessing they're not in court already being torn apart by Barry Lynn's lawyers. They need to put a stop to this now before they start bleeding precious school funds on what is a pointless and unconstitutional endeavor.
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ah, but its a TRADITION, ordained by the FOUNDING FATHERS!
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WHn ever I hear or see this I get confused. What the heck is happening in church and Sunday school, and at home? Apparently they are discussing faith since they need the school to put time and resources into biblical teachings. That is plain sad."The people in those communities still have strong Christian faith and want their children to learn this,"
Sure they may have a tradition that goes back a long ways, back when church and school was more commonly melded. But the world and education has advanced. Time for them to realize that.
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We've got something like this here in Salt Lake City in the form of seminary- basically, Mormon kids can choose to get "release time" to take religious classes at the seminary building(conveniently on school property). It sounds harmless, but if you aren't Mormon and sign up for it, they automatically register you for the LDS class from the friggin' public high school. One kid here actually tried to get 'release time' (with the assistance of his parents) to work for an hour, and they gave him a mandate: Either attend the Mormon religious classes, or drop Release time.
The kindergarten sounds worse, though, since it is the teachers who are taking the kids. That's all but saying to the non-Christian(or even christians from a different denomination) "You are an outcast."
The kindergarten sounds worse, though, since it is the teachers who are taking the kids. That's all but saying to the non-Christian(or even christians from a different denomination) "You are an outcast."
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That alone shocked me. Gah! I hate the people who peddle this crap! This is sick, revolting, and the people involved need to get smacked across the face courtesy of the higher courts."I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,' one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said.
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That alone is proof that this needs to be destroyed by the courts.Captain Cyran wrote:That alone shocked me. Gah! I hate the people who peddle this crap! This is sick, revolting, and the people involved need to get smacked across the face courtesy of the higher courts."I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,' one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said.
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I'm Christian, and think kids should learn about the bible if for no other reason than its cultural significance, but taking kids from school to a church without parents' knowledge is too much.
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Unfortunately, your coment about the constitution is untrue. At no point does the constitution or amendments thereof mandate that all church and public works be seperated. The first ammendment prohibits congress from making any law to establish a state religion or impede the exercise of a religion. It is in fact meant as a protection of religion and the seperation of church and state we so desperately need is in no way expressed in our founding charters. Individual court cases have sought to lesson compulsory religious elements in state affairs, including school, but there has been no across the board division.
This certainly needs to be shot down but since it is not a compulsory part of the school curriculum, though undoubtedly a waste of time and resources, the courts will most likely need to overturn it on a technicality since it is technicly an elective course. Hopefully it won't have to go to the courts and the school board will do away with it. Otherwise the courts will have to find a discrimination law to shut it down with.
This certainly needs to be shot down but since it is not a compulsory part of the school curriculum, though undoubtedly a waste of time and resources, the courts will most likely need to overturn it on a technicality since it is technicly an elective course. Hopefully it won't have to go to the courts and the school board will do away with it. Otherwise the courts will have to find a discrimination law to shut it down with.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
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Oh I agree; I guess my statement was a bit premature. However, I still stand by my original intent that school administrators/public schools in general do not have the right to ordain some sort of religious curriculum.
It might've been ok in the past and just ignored because society was so homogenous, but times are different now and actually require a certain standard that can be applied to everyone. If you allow one religion to get a special time set aside, then you'll have to do it for every other one to be fair.
It might've been ok in the past and just ignored because society was so homogenous, but times are different now and actually require a certain standard that can be applied to everyone. If you allow one religion to get a special time set aside, then you'll have to do it for every other one to be fair.
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Thomas Jefferson certainly meant it that way, and that has also been upheld by numerous precedents.UCBooties wrote:Unfortunately, your coment about the constitution is untrue. At no point does the constitution or amendments thereof mandate that all church and public works be seperated.
PS. This happened in Virginia. What the fuck do you expect? Virginia is the land of unapologetic fundie idiots.
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Ugh and so it goes again, while I fully accept that such was the intent of the framers, it must be clarified that there is no express seperation of religous interest and public work, and that the amendment was worded as a protection for citizens and the only entity it limits is the congress. When people say there is a seperation of church and state expressed in the constitution, they are wrong, and they need to look more closely at where the seperation comes from. I am not trying to argue that the two should not be seperated or that there have not been rules put in place to sepperate them, I am pointing out a common misunderstanding of the wording and consequence of the first amendment. If there was a clear sepperation in the constitution, we wouldn't need to have these court battles to overturn all this crap now would we?
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
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Irrelevant to the fact that there are numerous Supreme Court decisions upholding the Jeffersonian interpretation of his own intent. The 1st Amendment makes it clear that the federal government cannot do anything that would establish religion, so this falls back on the "states' rights" bullshit argument which in turn presumes that the states are permitted to quash human rights which the federal government cannot.UCBooties wrote:Ugh and so it goes again, while I fully accept that such was the intent of the framers, it must be clarified that there is no express seperation of religous interest and public work, and that the amendment was worded as a protection for citizens and the only entity it limits is the congress.
Bullshit. These court battles would happen regardless, and in fact are necessitated by the fact that people keep doing things which violate the constitution. That's how the system works; you have to challenge something on constitutional grounds in court. It's not as if unconstitutional things simply never happen due to some kind of mystical power emanating from the paper; they have to be challenged in court.If there was a clear sepperation in the constitution, we wouldn't need to have these court battles to overturn all this crap now would we?
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While I am unsure as to whether or not you are correct, you are wrong in that there are legal measures that seperate church and public works. No church, temple, synagouge, or other religious institution is being taxed by either State or Federal tax agencies. As George Carlin once said, if they want to bitch about the government, let them pay the admission fee.UCBooties wrote:Unfortunately, your coment about the constitution is untrue. At no point does the constitution or amendments thereof mandate that all church and public works be seperated.
As this "tradition" is only a town-wide thing, it can be stated that it goes against state and federal education guidelines as per the aforementioned statement:
Guardsman Bass wrote:The kindergarten sounds worse, though, since it is the teachers who are taking the kids. That's all but saying to the non-Christian(or even christians from a different denomination) "You are an outcast."
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Hmmm.... if only there could be a strong showing by secular home-schooling....
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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I prefer Grant's words.Singular Quartet wrote:As George Carlin once said, if they want to bitch about the government, let them pay the admission fee.
In 1850, I believe, the church property in the United States, which paid no tax, amounted to $87 million. In 1900, without a check, it is safe to say, this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion. I would suggest the taxation of all property equally.
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I don't see how taxation automatically gives one license to influence state policy; white-supremacist literature publishers are taxed, yet no one seriously believes they should influence state policy. If anything, tax exemption for churches actually gives them a special status among private organizations: they do not have to prove that their activities are necessarily charitable, yet they get to act as though they are for the purposes of taxation.Singular Quartet wrote:While I am unsure as to whether or not you are correct, you are wrong in that there are legal measures that seperate church and public works. No church, temple, synagouge, or other religious institution is being taxed by either State or Federal tax agencies. As George Carlin once said, if they want to bitch about the government, let them pay the admission fee.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
And why was a simple Bible test was administered in a public school in the first place?The Bible classes began in Virginia in 1929 after a majority of students failed a simple Bible test.
I fail to see how they can get away with holding the lessons even off school property. If you take students on a field trip to the aquarium, for example, the rules and regulations of the public school still apply, which means the separation of church and state problem should still exist, no matter how many parents want the Bible classes...
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Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon"
Operation Freedom Fry
Unfortunately, allowing for "states rights bullshit" was the only way to get the constitution ratified. This meant a lot of concessions and one of the things that had to go in order for the stragglers to sign was the more explicit prohibition against church involvement in the state and vice versa. Madison's original draft read "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' In the joint conference between house and senate they made the ammendment less explicit and chose to include it with the other civil liberties amendment rather than further define the barrier between religious and civil works.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
Post 777: Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post 999: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am