How many SW infantry to clear out a GCS?

[Coiler]

How many of the following Star Wars infantry would it take to clear out a fully-crewed GCS by either killing everyone aboard or forcing them to abandon ship? Assume standard equipment.

B1 battle droids

Stormtroopers

Yuuzhan Vong warriors

Wookies armed with bowcasters

Jedi

Two scenarios-one where the GCS's internal systems like transporters, holodecks, and security measures are all functioning fully, and another where they've been knocked out of commission, leaving the ship with only barely functioning life support.

[harbringer]

This has been done many times before, however it wouldn't take many. Assuming of course they had a droid capable of interfacing with the computer it may only take enough to fit on a standard imperial shuttle. Otherwise given the limitations of fed equipment and training fewer than needed to take the tantive.

[Coiler]

This has been done many times before, however it wouldn't take many. Assuming of course they had a droid capable of interfacing with the computer it may only take enough to fit on a standard imperial shuttle.

Except for the Vong, who use a completely different technology base and thus would have to take the ship the hard way.

Otherwise given the limitations of fed equipment and training fewer than needed to take the tantive.

Are you sure? There's a vast difference in crew size and vessel size between the Tantive and a GCS, which may serve as a force equalizer.

[Batman]

This has been done many times before, however it wouldn't take many. Assuming of course they had a droid capable of interfacing with the computer it may only take enough to fit on a standard imperial shuttle.

Except for the Vong, who use a completely different technology base and thus would have to take the ship the hard way.

ALL of the Wars parties work on a completely different technology base. Not that they NEED the droid to take over the ship.

Otherwise given the limitations of fed equipment and training fewer than needed to take the tantive.

Are you sure? There's a vast difference in crew size and vessel size between the Tantive and a GCS, which may serve as a force equalizer.

I don't know if he is but I am. Even assuming phasers can burn through Stormtrooper armour on standard settings leave alone at all(which is NOT a given) and by extension YV something-or-other crab armour (which UNLIKE Stormie armour actually resists lightsabers so if anything they're even MORE resilient) the Feds still have to hit, and given you can duck out of the way of a hand phaser beam AFTER it's been fired AND Fed accuracy is seriously south of atrocious...
The Wookies may or may not have to work for it depending on what equipment they have access to (it's been a while since I saw Episode 3 but if we do the sensible thing and grant them access to everything the OR had...)
For the others and especially the Jedi, it's a cakewalk.

[TC Pilot]

I don't see how Wookies armed with bowcasters (essentially just blasters) would have any trouble, save for their size and possibly lack of armor might make them hard targets. Not only are they just as capable of being... well, capable, but they have the brute strength alone to tear through a pack of good-for-nothing redshirts.

[Batman]

Their size and lack of armour making them relatively EASY targets whas part of what I wanted to get across. Phasers may stink against armour but they're perfectly capable of taking down quasi-humanoid mammalians in a few hits.
The point was that if we REALLY stack the odds in the Fed's favour, against the Wookies (if we really stack the odds against THEM) they actually have a chance. Against the rest of the Wars forces the Feds are screwed from the word go.

[wjs7744]

Numberswise, how does about 50-100 sound? A GCS has a fairly large complement, but many of these are noncombat civvies. Of the starfleet crew, there are a number of technical/scientific personnel who suck in combat, and the equipment difference has already been pointed out.

Possible exception: Don't stormies carry gas grenades? If so, that would be a huge advantage, as starfleet doesn't seem to have heard of gasmasks.

Definite exception: I don't really see any reason to doubt that a single Jedi couldn't take out the entire crew. If ordinary people can dodge phaser blasts, I doubt a Jedi will have any trouble with them.

[Lord Pounder]

Their size and lack of armour making them relatively EASY targets whas part of what I wanted to get across. Phasers may stink against armour but they're perfectly capable of taking down quasi-humanoid mammalians in a few hits.

Dude have you seen Trekmiss. Most redshirts couldn't hit a barn let alone a moving Wookie. You also need to consider what phasers would do against a Wookie, in the GFFA wookies are known to be able to withstand a stun blast from a blaster and given the Feddies lack of testicular fortitude it'll be a while beore they recieve allowance to use anything heavier than Stun.

[Lord Revan]

Their size and lack of armour making them relatively EASY targets whas part of what I wanted to get across. Phasers may stink against armour but they're perfectly capable of taking down quasi-humanoid mammalians in a few hits.

Dude have you seen Trekmiss. Most redshirts couldn't hit a barn let alone a moving Wookie. You also need to consider what phasers would do against a Wookie, in the GFFA wookies are known to be able to withstand a stun blast from a blaster and given the Feddies lack of testicular fortitude it'll be a while beore they recieve allowance to use anything heavier than Stun.

I agree with Pounder, stun setting from a phaser is likely only annoy a Wookiee and it's not wise to upset a wookiee (that's assuming they hit in the first place, which considering their accuracity from Nemesis is not a given).

[Themightytom]

Numberswise, how does about 50-100 sound? A GCS has a fairly large complement, but many of these are noncombat civvies. Of the starfleet crew, there are a number of technical/scientific personnel who suck in combat, and the equipment difference has already been pointed out.

Possible exception: Don't stormies carry gas grenades? If so, that would be a huge advantage, as starfleet doesn't seem to have heard of gasmasks.

Definite exception: I don't really see any reason to doubt that a single Jedi couldn't take out the entire crew. If ordinary people can dodge phaser blasts, I doubt a Jedi will have any trouble with them.

the number sounds right but if we gift starfleet with brains and strategy taht are not dependent on a writer with only an hour to tell a story i think more creative defenses can be accomplished with treknology.
*Gas grenades wouldn't do much, ST has demonstrated pretty effective ventilation systems, cleaning gas out of a room in a matter of seconds, if nothing else they can use the magic forcefields to contain the gas.
* The gravity plating would be a great defense, ramping the gravity way up or even down to disorient and imobilize opponents.
* Trek weapons can sustain fire in a continuous beam, how would a jedi deal with four phaser beams coming from differing angles. You can use the lightsaber to connect two points in space, but three or four is a little too much to hope for. A force shove could help if the jedi has time, but if the feddies know what they are up against I am sure they can come up with something.
*I neer understood why the ST ships didn't use sonic attacks to repel baorders LIKE THE FERENGI...
*Irradiate an area contained by forcefields and let the storm troopers cook in their armor.
*simulate holographic bed bugs to piss off the wookies (They said in message in a bottle that the new ships had holographic projectors over more of the ship didn't they, to better enable holographic replacement grew like teh EMH.)
*Turn off the damn turbo lifts for crying out loud, and then close every door you can find, electrify ladders and crawlways

They really make it too easy in the ST tv series because they go for the quick thrill of Heroic Security Officers Giving Their life In Valiant Defense Of Their Home.

If a GCS loses control of a section they can seperat the frikking ship and blow the part they are losing control of.

[NecronLord]

the number sounds right but if we gift starfleet with brains and strategy taht are not dependent on a writer

Then it kind of defeats the point.

[Peptuck]

*Gas grenades wouldn't do much, ST has demonstrated pretty effective ventilation systems, cleaning gas out of a room in a matter of seconds, if nothing else they can use the magic forcefields to contain the gas.

Just because they have ventilation systems, it doesn't mean its going to clear the gas out instantly. If they throw enough grenades into a room to fill it with enough a volume of gas, the vent systems aren't going to clear it out quickly enough to prevent it from affecting people.

* The gravity plating would be a great defense, ramping the gravity way up or even down to disorient and imobilize opponents.

Too bad they never do this ever.

but if the feddies know what they are up against I am sure they can come up with something.

*I neer understood why the ST ships didn't use sonic attacks to repel baorders LIKE THE FERENGI...

Presumably because they don't have them?

*Irradiate an area contained by forcefields and let the storm troopers cook in their armor.

Yeah, that'll work brilliantly against NBC-equipped troops. I certainly worked when they used it in....oh, wait, they never used that trick ever.

*simulate holographic bed bugs to piss off the wookies (They said in message in a bottle that the new ships had holographic projectors over more of the ship didn't they, to better enable holographic replacement grew like teh EMH.)

Too bad they've never used holographic troops to fight off boarders ever.

*Turn off the damn turbo lifts for crying out loud,

Like that's stopped boarders on ST ships before.

and then close every door you can find,

No shit, Sherlock. Of course you'e going to close the damn doors. But of course, the Stormtroopers will simply blast those doors open with breaching charges.

electrify ladders and crawlways

Too bad they've never shown this ability ever.

[Aaron]

*Gas grenades wouldn't do much, ST has demonstrated pretty effective ventilation systems, cleaning gas out of a room in a matter of seconds, if nothing else they can use the magic forcefields to contain the gas.

Persistant nerve agents. Even if most of the gas gets sucked up into the vents, what's actually landed on the floor and walls will require decontamination before the crew can enter (unless they want to use space suits) which denies them the use of the corridor. Hell you could use mustard gas and get the same effect. IIRC the Empire has a whole bunch of different gas grenades.

[Ritterin Sophia]

* The gravity plating would be a great defense, ramping the gravity way up or even down to disorient and imobilize opponents.

Too bad they never do this ever.

In Treks defence, I think I've seen it once. It was one of the episodes of Enterprise where the Terran Empire has the Constitution-class USS Defiant and Mirror-Verse Archer used the the gravity plating immobilize a Gorn, but that's like once out of how many times?

[Batman]

Their size and lack of armour making them relatively EASY targets whas part of what I wanted to get across. Phasers may stink against armour but they're perfectly capable of taking down quasi-humanoid mammalians in a few hits.

Dude have you seen Trekmiss. Most redshirts couldn't hit a barn let alone a moving Wookie.

Yeah. I totally didn't comment on that earlier in the thread.
The POINT was that the Wookies are the party phasers have a) the best chance of hitting and b)actually having an effect on.

You also need to consider what phasers would do against a Wookie, in the GFFA wookies are known to be able to withstand a stun blast from a blaster
and given the Feddies lack of testicular fortitude it'll be a while beore they recieve allowance to use anything heavier than Stun.

which doesn't tell us zilch as phasers work on completely different principles.
Now if you want to argue that great physical strength/stamina aid in resisting stun phasers as seen in Star Trek and the wookies have those aplenty I agree, but their ability to resist stun blasters doesn't say a thing about their ability to resist stun phasers.
And while TNG Starfleet IS incompetent like nobody's business they have no particular problem going to kill once they see that stun doesn't work and there's actually danger.

Not that Starfleet will WIN, mind you. But out of the mentioned parties, the Wookies are the most likely to actually suffer casualties.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't forget all the windows on a GCS. Each one represents a potential boarding point, and there's literally a shitton of them representing both potential entry points as well as decompression dangers.

[Peptuck]

* The gravity plating would be a great defense, ramping the gravity way up or even down to disorient and imobilize opponents.

Too bad they never do this ever.

In Treks defence, I think I've seen it once. It was one of the episodes of Enterprise where the Terran Empire has the Constitution-class USS Defiant and Mirror-Verse Archer used the the gravity plating immobilize a Gorn, but that's like once out of how many times?

So, the only time they ever used gravity plates was an incident involving an alternate-universe character and an alt-universe Federation?

That says something, right there.....

[Themightytom]

yeah it does peptuck, you really weren't buying the whole "the number sounds right but if we gift starfleet with brains and strategy that are not dependent on a writer " premise were you, that's cool, I mean you can just remove my entire intention and then nitpick out of ignorance.
Starfleet ships have a lot more capability then has been demosntrated in boarding situations.
All of the abilities i descrived have been shown out of context. My point is that they AREN'T USED when you'd think they should be.
*Electrifying doors and ladders= happens every time any malfunction anywhere happens, you're saying they can't do it on purpose??
*Ventilation: Oh yeah your right, they can flood the ship with anesthezine in ten seconds flat, but they can't make the fans spin the OTHER way and vent that quickly?
* sonic attacks, they have intercoms everywhere, you don't need special technology to use sound. Either play a disruptive noise so the boarders can't hear eachother, or play a ULF noise that makes them nauseous. Hell you can't have the computer simulate voices and give false orders to confuse and disorient.
My example was when they could have used a high pitched sound that would irritate a human to make the giant eared ferengi scream in agony.
*Turning off turbolifts won't stop anyone but they can slow them down and create an opportunity for booby traps, ie: turn the turbo lifts off and then back on when your boarders are in the toobs, so you ahve a giant turbo bullet smashing into them. Close the door and pressurize the other side so when they "use charges" the explosion and the decompression effects blow back in their face.
*The gravity plating WAS used on a Constitution class ship from the "Main" universe.(In a Mirror Darkly ENT) The applicationw as concieved by a paralell universe twin, but the capability is there.


Reinforcing my point, which is that the writers of star trek are always singleminded in their pursuit of whatever agenda they hve in their plot. they ahve an hour to run the episode where Seska betrays Chakotay one more time and the kaizons take over voyager. So yeah the kaizons made it to the bridge in fifteen seconds, beause you know Tuvok isn't a logical vulcan who should ahve had security procedures in place or anything he doesn't really put any effort into his work, running simulations on for example what would happen if the Maquis crew mutinied. Where was the simulation where the kaizon boarded the ship Tuvok? When an enemy boards a federation ship, they should be at a disadvantage because the crew knows the capabilities of the ship they live on and should have planned for likely contingencies.

And I don't mean out thinking as in "Lets put communicators on a remote controlled car and drive it into enemies so they are transported away"(Rascals, TNG) or "Lets use our miniaturized runabout!" (One little ship DS9)

necronLord is right, giving the feds undue intelligence defeats the point of the discussion if you intend to discuss why the pacifistic idealistic Up With people federation society would get its ass kicked by the ruthless well equipped Galactic Empire and the various races that ahve had to fight them and have therefore gotten tough and ruthless themselves.
But you can't cherry pick for one side and not the other and tell a good story. The boarding of the Tantive IV was pretty stupid in many respects but we wouldn't assign that level of incompetence to a boarding party atttacking a federation ship, Instead of having the storm troopers pile out of the narrow doorway and climb over bodies before the smoke clears (to the benny hill theme song), we send in droids first and then efficiently clear a hallway with grenades or whatever.
Did anyone see the family guy Blue harvest Special, where they had all of the rbels defending the hallway waiting for the storm troopers to burst through, and the one turns to the other and says
"hey what if they come through a different door?"

[Ritterin Sophia]

-Snip-

Would you use some bloody proper English!? Word of warning, giant blocks of text completely void of correct capitalization and punctuation are rather frown upon here, and since you say you live in the 'us', I seriously doubt you have an excuse. Wouldn't mind as much if you looked like you were trying, but the majority of your posts look exactly the same.

[Themightytom]

Yeah you're right general I'll be a little more careful how I post.
Thanks for pointing out the lower case "us" in my profile, I'll fix that.
I assume you used the present tense of "frowned" just to make me feel better about my mistakes. thanks for throwing me that bone ;-p

[wjs7744]

In addition to those that have already been answered:

*I neer understood why the ST ships didn't use sonic attacks to repel baorders LIKE THE FERENGI...

I was under the impression that Stormy armour protects against sonic attacks. (Link)

Sonic weapons: It is likely that Imperial troops will regularly find themselves functioning as a quasi-police force, quelling riots and controlling crowds. If mass extermination is not called for, the soldiers will need a wide-area non-lethal crowd suppression weapon. Enter the sonic weapon, which uses sound waves to stun everyone within a fixed radius. For example, according to the SWEGWT, the PDS SG-82 sonic rifle can stun or even kill, at high amplitude settings. Of course, most users must wear a dampening helmet to protect themselves from the sonic discharge, but stormtroopers can fire these weapons without such protection. The range of the PDS SG-82 is roughly 35 metres, and interestingly enough, this is one of the few weapons that are actually more effective underwater, where most weapons are either useless or severely weakened. It is noteworthy that the potential of the sonic weapon is currently being researched by various organizations including the United States military in real life. Theoretically, a real-life high-frequency sonic weapon can cause excruciating pain and eventually, unconsciousness or perhaps even death. However, the threat of permanent deafness is a potential stumbling block (although the Empire wouldn't think much of it).

(Emphasis mine) Of course, not having the books myself, I don't know if this is conjecture on Mike's part.

*simulate holographic bed bugs to piss off the wookies (They said in message in a bottle that the new ships had holographic projectors over more of the ship didn't they, to better enable holographic replacement grew like teh EMH.)

I would hardly call a GCS one of the newer ships. IIRC, they were the first ones to even have holodecks, let alone holo emiters all over the ship.
*[...]close every door you can find,[...][/quote]

[...]electrify ladders and crawlways

The part where stormies wear rubber gloves escaped you? Not to mention that electrifying a solid piece of metal will do exactly jack to anyone touching it.

They really make it too easy in the ST tv series because they go for the quick thrill of Heroic Security Officers Giving Their life In Valiant Defense Of Their Home.

And your evidence that this isn't how Starfleet personel always act is...? You seem to be assuming competence far exceeding any we have actually seen from them in the shows.

If a GCS loses control of a section they can seperat the frikking ship and blow the part they are losing control of.

What is the first rule of trekkie fanboy combat again?

My numbers estimates actually granted the assumption that phasers will be able to hurt the enemy at all. Seeing as the ability of phasers to penetrate stormy or B1 armour even on maximum isn't actually a given, it might possibly take less.

[Themightytom]

1. The original post lists Youzhon Vong Wookies and jedi as well as storm troopers. Not just storm troopers.
2.Sonic attacks are more than just disabling noises. The storm troopers can hear eachother, they talk audibly to one another in the movies. of course it is completely plausible given the Empire's millenia of advancement, that the helmets have sound processing equipment that can differentiate between synthetic voices alerting a stormtrooper tht it is a computer imitating his CO, not his CO giving him an order.
Either way the Wookies jedi and Vong would still have their hands full.
4.Is the timeframe for this post dominion war era or set around Encounter At Farpoint
I'm not even going to continue arguing for sonic attacks though, my point was if a race of aliens with GIANT EARS boards your ship wouldn't yous start thinking about how to exploit an obvious weakness?
5.Ok well who can argue with an exploding door.
6.laders and crawlways I said not a solid piece of metal. The crawlways sthey show in ST always have a grid plate.
Seriously are we talking about all of the groups on the list or is it just storm troopers. Should I just say storm troopers are invincible? is that what you want?
7. Where was I stating that isn't how they act? ST security always acts like morons in the TV shows and movies. Do they do this for any specific reason? No they do not, they are fictional characters written by a writer doing a sloppy job. I'm not assuming competence, i am acknowledging the lack thereof. moreso because they HAVE the tools to make a good show of it, but they wouldn't use them.
8. I don't know what the first rule is, but I'm guess you're being a jackass solely because you think I'm defending the star trek position. is that your first rule Wis? "Be a jackass"?
I'm off topic here because I'm talking about writing styles and thats not what the first post asked so I'm shutting up now.

[Terralthra]

1. The original post lists Youzhon Vong Wookies and jedi as well as storm troopers. Not just storm troopers.
2.Sonic attacks are more than just disabling noises. The storm troopers can hear eachother, they talk audibly to one another in the movies. of course it is completely plausible given the Empire's millenia of advancement, that the helmets have sound processing equipment that can differentiate between synthetic voices alerting a stormtrooper tht it is a computer imitating his CO, not his CO giving him an order.
Either way the Wookies jedi and Vong would still have their hands full.
4.Is the timeframe for this post dominion war era or set around Encounter At Farpoint
I'm not even going to continue arguing for sonic attacks though, my point was if a race of aliens with GIANT EARS boards your ship wouldn't yous start thinking about how to exploit an obvious weakness?
5.Ok well who can argue with an exploding door.
6.laders and crawlways I said not a solid piece of metal. The crawlways sthey show in ST always have a grid plate.
Seriously are we talking about all of the groups on the list or is it just storm troopers. Should I just say storm troopers are invincible? is that what you want?
7. Where was I stating that isn't how they act? ST security always acts like morons in the TV shows and movies. Do they do this for any specific reason? No they do not, they are fictional characters written by a writer doing a sloppy job. I'm not assuming competence, i am acknowledging the lack thereof. moreso because they HAVE the tools to make a good show of it, but they wouldn't use them.
8. I don't know what the first rule is, but I'm guess you're being a jackass solely because you think I'm defending the star trek position. is that your first rule Wis? "Be a jackass"?
I'm off topic here because I'm talking about writing styles and thats not what the first post asked so I'm shutting up now.

The problem is the assumption of competence on your part. As an analogous example, say there was a topic about who would win in a boxing match, your grandma or Evander Holyfield. Most people would say, without any question, that Holyfield would win.

If you came in and said, "Well, that's only if my grandma acted the way she actually has for as long as I've known her. If she had a black belt in Tae Kwan Do, it would be a more fair fight," would you expect anyone to find that convincing?

You're doing that with the security officers aboard the GCS. Every time we've seen them in action, they have ranged from incompetent to astonishingly incompetent. Why should we now, for the purpose of debate, assume that they are competent in general, and only incompetent when a camera is pointed at them?

[FA Xerrik]

It probably goes without saying, but a single B1 droid could probably clear the whole ship if it had enough ammo. After all, packing crate > phaser, and B1 droids are likely at least as tough. Actually, the thought of a single one of those teetering ninnies mowing it's way ineptly through a whole squad of redshirts tickles my funny bone immensely.

It would probably take only a single Jedi as well, since we've seen a pair of Jedi (one of whom was only a Padawan, after all) accomplish this feat on a Trade Federation ship, considerably larger than a GCS. They seem optimally trained for defending against attackers coming at them in packs down hallways, after all.

The Yuuzhan Vong seem to be at most risk from getting cooked inside their armor, rather than actual penetration of any kind. A handful of razor bugs would cut through redshirts incredibly fast, especially since the bugs seem to have modest agility when it comes to dodging counter-fire. If SW infantry have a hard time shooting them down, I don't think a phaser will stand a very good chance either. Yuuzhan Vong against a Klingon ship would be pretty amusing actually, what with both races having an irrational penchant for melee combat and all.

[brianeyci]

I'm a little disappointed in this thread. Why are people mentioning vague generalities like "competence?" This is supposed to be a technical discussion board where people discuss what a group of people can do, not a character discussion of what they will do. And no, that doesn't mean I'm supporting the idea of holographic troops, since there aren't holoemitters all around the ship.

Stuart mentioned the random factor in one of the posts where he explains medieval combat. If the numbers are too low, all the Federation needs is a few lucky hits to kill a large chunk of the boarding force.

So to answer the op I would think all except the Jedi (who have ability to predict angles of attack) would need at least a fireteam. At the very least you need to cover possible angles of approach, and a corridor has at least two. An intersection would have four, and if they wanted to clear rooms rather than just go to the bridge you'd need a man to bash/blow the door in, a man to go through, and two men to cover the corridor.

So four men, and depending on what Jedi either two or one. They have to be able to mathematically cover 360 degrees and if two guys fire phasers from behind and in front well... it's possible a weak Jedi could bite it.