The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-26 04:33pm

https://latimes.com/opinion/story/2020- ... nald-trump
On Tuesday, Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York, spoke to the media from a Manhattan conference center that’s being converted into a 1,000-bed hospital for COVID-19 patients.

No one delivers bad news as well as Cuomo. He is a master of rue. Also bluntness. And that combination is what New York, and the nation, is starved for these days.

Not condescension. Not soothing blandishments. Not dangerous Trumpist lies that imply the sick will rise from their beds and the dead from their graves on Easter Sunday.

While Cuomo’s daily pressers communicate home truths, the delusions President Trump shares in his news conferences veer toward the sickeningly bizarre. His self-serving distortions deserve to be declared a public health hazard.

But back to Cuomo. He customarily starts with the hard facts.

“The increase in the number of cases continues unabated,” he said Tuesday, gesturing at a harrowing graph that made it clear why New York is the epicenter of the virus in the U.S. “We haven’t flattened the curve. The curve is actually increasing.”

On Wednesday, he tempered that, but just a tad: Data, he said, “suggests” confirmed cases have been doubling, but not as rapidly as every two days. On Thursday, he delivered the news that New York hospitals will soon be overwhelmed no matter what is done to mitigate the spread of the disease.

Cuomo doesn’t apologize for being grim. His unvarnished talk brings to mind the words of another leader, 80 years ago: Winston Churchill. Sure, Cuomo’s Queens accent is nothing like Churchill’s Queen’s English. But the governor’s simple candor recalls Churchill’s statement about the Nazi victory over the French.

“The news from France is very bad.”

The simple truth has poetry to it.

Likewise, the news from New York is very bad. The latest count: 34,486 COVID-19 cases reported in the state and neighboring New Jersey, where many hard-hit municipalities are New York City suburbs. The states have seen 329 deaths between them.

In California, by contrast, the Wednesday count was 2,648 cases and 56 deaths. But it too is a hotspot, and the upward curve of the pandemic there could soon equal New York’s.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom favors unminced words almost as much as Cuomo. He was first in the nation to order statewide stay-at-home restrictions; he too holds frank daily news conferences.

“[On] the question of whether California will open in April, let me be sober about that. I’m not Pollyanna-ish,” Newsom said Tuesday in his Marin County accent. “Early April … would be misleading.” On Wednesday, he reiterated: “The stay-at-home orders are real.... Halfway is no way.”

Truth telling can be nasty business. Cuomo is far pushier about being in the vanguard of the COVID-19 disaster than Newsom, at least so far. Maybe it’s a Queens versus Marin thing, but depending on how fast, or if, Californians bend the curve, the coastal distinction in manners may fade.

When Cuomo made it clear last week that New York would need at least 30,000 ventilators to keep virus patients alive, Washington sent 400 (later bumped up by 2,000). Cuomo snapped: “You pick the people who are going to die because you only sent 400 ventilators.”

On Wednesday, Cuomo was equally disgusted by the stimulus bill that finally passed in the Republican-majority Senate. “What does it mean for New York state?” Cuomo asked. “It means $3.8 billion. $3.8 billion sounds like a lot of money, but we’re looking at a revenue shortfall of [as much as] $15 billion.”

No one could have predicted the exact nature and trajectory of COVID-19. But perhaps we could have predicted Trump’s exact response to an existential threat — opening up a firehose of lies.

In the Greek tragedy that has been Trump’s term in office — where one act of hubris after another has imperiled American democracy and now hundreds of thousands of human lives — the president never fails to take the side of America’s enemies against its people. In this case, he seems to favor the spread of a virus over the lives of the afflicted. Especially if it might lift the Dow.

But another parallel tragedy has been the enforced cowardice of those around him, with only a few standout exceptions (notably, Dr. Anthony Fauci of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, whom Trump has failed to sideline so far).

Andy Slavitt, who was the head of Medicare, Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act under President Obama, posted a chilling Twitter thread about Trump’s response to COVID-19 two weeks ago. He wrote that more than a million people may die in the U.S. because the Trump administration dithered, plus this: “Federal workers could not be seen contradicting Trump.”

Let’s get this straight: When actions could have done the most to save lives and lessen the huge financial hit of the coronavirus, government officials, experts in their fields, were so cowed by our unstable president and his itchy Twitter trigger finger that they didn’t speak up — even to save lives. That is a national government decompensating.

What’s left, for now, is federalism. Which is why Americans can turn to their governors — with Cuomo and Newsom in the lead — to speak the truth, mandate the shutdowns, contradict what passes for pandemic policy under Trump. As Churchill might have said, appeasing a tyrant never ends well.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-26 04:56pm

Coronavirus relief package finally made it through the Senate. Progressives aren't terribly satisfied, but were placated with the promise of further legislation later in the spring, and the need to pass something now.

More details on the bill's contents:

https://cbc.ca/news/world/senate-corona ... -1.5510475
The Senate late Wednesday passed an unparalleled $2.2 trillion US economic rescue package steering aid to businesses, workers and health care systems engulfed by the coronavirus pandemic.

The unanimous vote came despite misgivings on both sides about whether it goes too far or not far enough and capped days of difficult negotiations as Washington confronted a national challenge unlike it has ever faced.

The 880-page measure is the largest economic relief bill in U.S. history. Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell appeared sombre and exhausted as he announced the vote — and he released senators from Washington until April 20, though he promised to recall them if needed.

"The legislation now before us now is historic because it is meant to match a historic crisis," said Democratic Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. "Our health care system is not prepared to care for the sick. Our workers are without work. Our businesses cannot do business. Our factories lie idle. The gears of the American economy have ground to a halt."

The package is intended as relief for an economy spiralling into recession or worse and a nation facing a grim toll from an infection that's killed nearly 20,000 people worldwide. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, asked how long the aid would keep the economy afloat, said: "We've anticipated three months. Hopefully, we won't need this for three months."

Underscoring the effort's sheer magnitude, the bill finances a response with a price tag that equals half the size of the entire $4 trillion annual federal budget.

Insistently optimistic, President Donald Trump said of the greatest public-health emergency in anyone's lifetime, "I don't think its going to end up being such a rough patch" and anticipated the economy soaring "like a rocket ship" when it's over.

Coronavirus impact spreads across U.S., with much of the population under stay-at-home orders
Anyone leaving New York must self-isolate or risk spreading COVID-19, health officials say
The drive by leaders to speed the bill through the Senate was slowed as four conservative Republican senators from states who economies are dominated by low-wage jobs demanded changes, saying the legislation as written might give workers like store clerks incentives to stay on unemployment instead of returning return to their jobs since they may earn more money if they're laid off than if they're working. They settled for a failed vote to modify the provision.

Other objections floated in from New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who has become a prominent Democrat on the national scene as the country battles the pandemic. Cuomo, whose state has seen more deaths from the pandemic than any other, said, "I'm telling you, these numbers don't work."

Ardent liberals like Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez were restless as well, but top Washington Democrats assured them that a additional coronavirus legislation will follow this spring and signalled that delaying the pending measure would be foolish.

The sprawling measure is the third coronavirus response bill produced by Congress and by far the largest. It builds on efforts focused on vaccines and emergency response, sick and family medical leave for workers, and food aid.

Provides direct payments
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., swung behind the bipartisan agreement, saying it "takes us a long way down the road in meeting the needs of the American people."

Senate passage delivered the legislation to the Democratic-controlled House, which will most likely pass it Friday. House members are scattered around the country and the timetable for votes in that chamber was unclear.

House Democratic and Republican leaders have hoped to clear the measure for Trump's signature by a voice vote without having to call lawmakers back to Washington.

The package would give direct payments to most Americans, expand unemployment benefits and provide a $367 billion program for small businesses to keep making payroll while workers are forced to stay home.

It includes a controversial, heavily negotiated $500 billion program for guaranteed, subsidized loans to larger industries, including airlines. Hospitals would get significant help as well.

Six days of arduous talks produced the bill, creating tensions among Congress' top leaders, who each took care to tend to party politics as they maneuvered and battled over crafting the legislation. But failure is not an option, nor is starting over, which permitted both sides to include their priorities.

"That Washington drama does not matter any more," McConnell said. "The Senate is going to stand together, act together, and pass this historic relief package today."

The bill would provide one-time direct payments to Americans of $1,200 per adult making up to $75,000 a year, and $2,400 to a married couple making up to $150,000, with $500 payments per child.

A huge cash infusion for hospitals expecting a flood of COVID-19 patients grew during the talks to an estimated $130 billion. Another $45 billion would fund additional relief through the Federal Emergency Management Agency for local response efforts and community services.

Democrats said the package would help replace the salaries of furloughed workers for four months, rather than the three months first proposed. Furloughed workers would get whatever amount a state usually provides for unemployment, plus a $600 per week add-on, with gig workers like Uber drivers covered for the first time.

Republicans won inclusion of an "employee retention" tax credit that's estimated to provide $50 billion to companies that retain employees on payroll and cover 50 per cent of workers' paycheque up to $10,000. Companies would also be able to defer payment of the 6.2 per cent Social Security payroll tax.

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Apparently the final total was 96-0.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Elheru Aran » 2020-03-26 05:00pm

Not that it's very important, but 96? Were four absent or abstaining?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-26 05:16pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2020-03-26 05:00pm
Not that it's very important, but 96? Were four absent or abstaining?
I'd guess that would be the Senators currently in quarantine. IIRC there were five a few days ago, one's testing must have come back negative.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Nicholas » 2020-03-26 05:59pm

LaCroix wrote:
2020-03-26 02:43pm
Looking at the numbers, the USA will take the lead in another statistic by eod or tomorrow, latest (already leading in active cases, but simple linear projection predicts you overtake China and Italy today)... at the current time, 1 in 7 infected worldwide is an US citizen, and things have only just begun in most States.
One comment on that "active cases" statistic that you cite which I find very revealing is that (at least according to John Hopkins https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html) there are no recovered COVID-19 cases in the US. That is obviously false which tells me the US is still failing to actually track and quarantine people who have COVID-19. Instead when diagnosed people are either admitted to the hospital or told go home and isolate yourself. The latter group are not systematically followed up with which means they have no way to accurately determine when they are no longer contagious! That can't be good.

Nicholas

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-26 06:37pm

loomer wrote:
2020-03-26 06:20am
What I'm getting at is that your situations are actually distinct. Indiana has received multiple shipments of aid from the feds, and if that aid hasn't been distributed to your area, it's down to the decisions of state authorities. The Navajo Nation's treaties are directly with the Federal Government, which is why it's entitled to directly receive aid without a state government interfering, unlike Lake County.
At the time I replied - as I stated - my information was that Indiana was had received ONE shipment from the Feds. As had the Navajo nation. The Navajo will get Federal aid that millions of other American will not get at all. Yet you're still not satisfied.

The fact is that nothing is going to make you happy unless the Native nations get all Federal aid and the "colonial oppressors" get none whatsoever.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-26 06:42pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-26 01:07pm
Trump is threatening to use this crisis to militarize the US/Canada border, previously the longest unmilitarized border in the world:
In other words: the administration is STILL trying to blame this on foreigners, refusing to accept that GODDAMMIT YES IT'S HERE AND IT'S SPREADING IN OUR COMMUNITIES BECAUSE YOU FUCKERS ARE STUPID AND INCOMPETENT!!!
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-26 06:45pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-26 02:59pm
I'm morbidly curious if US fatalities due to the shitty response will pass the total death toll of the Iraq War (including civilian deaths)- just for all the people who said "Trump isn't as bad as Bush because he hasn't killed as many people as Iraq yet".
Oh, this could easily have a death toll in the millions, especially if Trump's stupidity is allowed to reign.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-26 06:48pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-26 03:33pm
New York may be seeing some small signs of improvement, while New Orleans appears to be going downhill:
That's because 2 weeks ago New Orleans threw it's normal Mardi Gras party/debauchery. Lots and lots of close contact.

Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot was heavily criticized for cancelled the St. Pat's party but you know, it was the right thing to do and even though Chicago is also seeing rising cases they can probably thank Lightfoot on the 31st that things aren't worse - which they would be if St. Pat's had gone forward as usual.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-26 06:52pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-26 04:08pm
Is it constitutional to prohibit travel between states? It may be necessary, under the circumstances, but I'm curious as to the legal implications, and whether this sets a precedent some (read: Trump) could use to permanently undermine the right to freedom of movement within the United States.
I don't think the Federal government has that right...

... but arguably a State government does, as a reserved power for the public welfare during an emergency. So far, it's been state governors making those decisions and orders. As we know the Feds don't give a fuck. I mean, goddamn, we have infected Senators still going to work and spreading pestilence.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-26 06:58pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2020-03-26 05:00pm
Not that it's very important, but 96? Were four absent or abstaining?
Some are in quarantine because of having covid-19. So they weren't there.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-26 07:52pm

Nicholas wrote:
2020-03-26 05:59pm
LaCroix wrote:
2020-03-26 02:43pm
Looking at the numbers, the USA will take the lead in another statistic by eod or tomorrow, latest (already leading in active cases, but simple linear projection predicts you overtake China and Italy today)... at the current time, 1 in 7 infected worldwide is an US citizen, and things have only just begun in most States.
One comment on that "active cases" statistic that you cite which I find very revealing is that (at least according to John Hopkins https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html) there are no recovered COVID-19 cases in the US. That is obviously false which tells me the US is still failing to actually track and quarantine people who have COVID-19. Instead when diagnosed people are either admitted to the hospital or told go home and isolate yourself. The latter group are not systematically followed up with which means they have no way to accurately determine when they are no longer contagious! That can't be good.

Nicholas
Just be careful with that. The John Hopkins site sometimes takes a while to refresh (not sure is it due to traffic or what) and sometime has displayed to me 0 recovered cases for some countries. At present it is displaying 680 recovered and 1201 deaths for me. This sort of mirrors the Chinese experience where deaths outnumber recoveries in the initial stages. Keep in mind the Chinese experience suggest sometimes up to 6 weeks to recover (heck, Chinese news are showing patients in ICU for 50 days and still there), so we expect the recoveries to increase in the next few weeks.

Currently its also showing the US is number one in confirmed cases, followed by China and then Italy. It looks like by tomorrow Italy will overtake China, but the number of new cases per day for Italy seems to be slowing down as evidence by the curve being less steep.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-26 09:32pm

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-26 06:37pm
loomer wrote:
2020-03-26 06:20am
What I'm getting at is that your situations are actually distinct. Indiana has received multiple shipments of aid from the feds, and if that aid hasn't been distributed to your area, it's down to the decisions of state authorities. The Navajo Nation's treaties are directly with the Federal Government, which is why it's entitled to directly receive aid without a state government interfering, unlike Lake County.
At the time I replied - as I stated - my information was that Indiana was had received ONE shipment from the Feds. As had the Navajo nation. The Navajo will get Federal aid that millions of other American will not get at all. Yet you're still not satisfied.
Again, 'millions of other Americans' are not having aid withheld by the federal government. As far as I'm aware, not one state that put in for supply from the SNS has been denied - they've all received shipments. Those shipments have been smaller than asked for because the stockpile has been badly mismanaged, but they have nonetheless been distributed. It is then on the states to distribute it equitably, and not the feds - so, no.
The fact is that nothing is going to make you happy unless the Native nations get all Federal aid and the "colonial oppressors" get none whatsoever.
Actually, I'd find that situation just as worthy of condemnation. Let me give you a quick hypothetical to try and make my situation clear. Also, stop putting colonial oppressors in quotation marks to imply it's my position - you inserted it into this conversation, not me.

You have two communities. One has 10 million people in it, one has 500,000. Both can expect 50,000 deaths from an uncontained outbreak if nothing is done. The smaller community is more vulnerable, so it has a legitimate claim on better lines of supply than the larger community. Now add in that of those 50,000, for the smaller community many will be vital to the ongoing existence of that community's history and language. The same death toll has a disproportionate impact on it both in terms of raw deaths per capita and in terms of the impact of those deaths.

That's the situation Indigenous communities are staring down. I think they should be prioritized, yes - but stunningly, that doesn't require them to get everything and everyone else nothing, because there's another little element of this. The community of 10 million has many more nurses and doctors than the community of 500,000, and they'll be seeing many more patients. A week's supply to the smaller community would probably last a day in the larger, at best. The smaller community's resource needs, even when prioritized higher, do not require the abandonment of the larger community. By contrast, completely provisioning the larger community, which will be less badly impacted, does require abandoning the smaller community's resource needs.

Do you see why it's possible to go 'well, I'm glad they got supplies, but I hope more is coming their way' without it being a desire for genocide, as you've insinuated? Do you disagree with any of the following: a, Native American communities are likely to experience higher fatality rates than most settler communities, b, those fatality rates are likely to cause disproportionate cultural damage in addition to the human loss, c, it is appropriate to prioritize communities that will be more severely impacted over those that won't be?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-26 10:13pm

Fresh from the presses. The Navajo Nation has now hit 79 known cases, and is already having to reuse supply in some hospitals, as well as soliciting members of the community to make and donate gowns, masks, and face shields. For those curious, the hospital in the article only has 73 beds.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-27 12:45am

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressi ... rom-virus/
Pastor Who Claimed Covid-19 ‘Hysteria’ Was Plot Against Trump Dies From Virus
MARCH 26, 2020 BY MICHAEL STONE
46 COMMENTS
Religious Ignorance Kills: Landon Spradlin, a Virginia pastor who claimed the “mass hysteria” around the coronavirus pandemic was part of a media plot against Trump, has died from the virus.

ABC News reports:

Landon Spradlin’s family never got to say goodbye.

The 66-year-old father and husband from Virginia died due to complications from COVID-19 on Wednesday morning in North Carolina.

While on the way home from a mission trip, Spradlin collapsed and was taken to a hospital in Concord, North Carolina. He was eventually put on a ventilator as his condition worsened.

According to reports, Spradlin, a 66-year-old Christian “musical evangelist,” fell ill while on a missionary trip to New Orleans with his wife.

Friendly Atheist reports Spaldrin went to New Orleans to “wash it from its Sin and debauchery.”

On his Facebook page Spradlin shared a misleading meme attempting to minimize COVID-19, comparing the virus to the swine flu, and suggesting that the response to the coronavirus pandemic was media created “mass hysteria” to damage Trump:

<snip>
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by madd0ct0r » 2020-03-27 03:37am

That just reminds me of trr's earlier post about white supremacist s seeing it as a duty, if they catch it, to spread it among other racial groups first.

I try to believe in ignorance over malice but this is like not believing in headlamps.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-27 04:56am

Looks like the Democrats managed not to blink first for a change, and to actually get a half-decent coronavirus aid bill through:

https://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020 ... damn-good/
A week ago Republicans introduced the first version of their coronavirus rescue bill. Here’s what Democrats have gotten added to it since then:

Vastly expanded unemployment benefits through June for anyone who’s lost income due to COVID-19.
$100 billion for hospitals.

A change in the “checks for everyone” program to insure that low-income workers get the full $1,200.

Removal of a provision that would have excluded nonprofits that receive Medicaid funding from the small-business grants.

A ban on the Trump family getting aid.

Oversight on the corporate lending facility.

$150 billion for state and local governments.

$25 billion for food stamps.

$30 billion for schools.

Is this perfect? No.

Are there any objectionable parts of the bill still included? Yes.

Did Democrats get every last thing they wanted? No.

Is this nonetheless a damn good effort that’s going to help millions of ordinary Americans get through the crisis without being evicted, going bankrupt, or continuing to work in unsafe conditions? Oh yes indeed.

Love ’em or hate ’em, this is good work from the Democratic Party. It’s only because of the final form of this bill that we have a fighting chance of getting through the coronavirus pandemic without destroying the economy along the way.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 05:06am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-26 09:32pm
Again, 'millions of other Americans' are not having aid withheld by the federal government. As far as I'm aware, not one state that put in for supply from the SNS has been denied - they've all received shipments. Those shipments have been smaller than asked for because the stockpile has been badly mismanaged, but they have nonetheless been distributed. It is then on the states to distribute it equitably, and not the feds - so, no.
There is absolutely NOT enough to go around. Period. Even now, and we're not near the peak.

It is impossible to "distribute it equitably" as that phrase is normally interpreted.

People will die not because they were doomed to do so, or we lacked the knowledge to save them, but because there are not enough supplies to go around.

Just as my state will have to make decisions as to who does and does not get materials, so too will the Navajo nation.

They are people treated just as everyone else asking the US government for aid - they are getting some, but not nearly enough. Those working on treating covid victims in the Navajo nation will have to perform the same triage as everyone else.

There are no good decisions here, there is no happy ending.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 05:07am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-27 12:45am
Title says it all really.
Karma is a bitch.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-27 05:23am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-27 05:06am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-26 09:32pm
Again, 'millions of other Americans' are not having aid withheld by the federal government. As far as I'm aware, not one state that put in for supply from the SNS has been denied - they've all received shipments. Those shipments have been smaller than asked for because the stockpile has been badly mismanaged, but they have nonetheless been distributed. It is then on the states to distribute it equitably, and not the feds - so, no.
There is absolutely NOT enough to go around. Period. Even now, and we're not near the peak.

It is impossible to "distribute it equitably" as that phrase is normally interpreted.

People will die not because they were doomed to do so, or we lacked the knowledge to save them, but because there are not enough supplies to go around.

Just as my state will have to make decisions as to who does and does not get materials, so too will the Navajo nation.

They are people treated just as everyone else asking the US government for aid - they are getting some, but not nearly enough. Those working on treating covid victims in the Navajo nation will have to perform the same triage as everyone else.

There are no good decisions here, there is no happy ending.
That's strange. I didn't say there was enough to go around. I said I wasn't aware of any state that had been outright denied supplies from the SNS. As for equitable distribution - you are mistaken. Equitable distribution is possible whether there is scarcity or excess (indeed, it's under circumstances of extreme scarcity that the question of equitable distribution becomes most important) as equity does not require utopian outcomes.

I'd like you to answer my questions rather than doing this thing where you ignore them in favour of this 'well, there are no good answers' equivocating. If you think my position is monstrous or immoral, as you have made clear with your insertion of an imagined 'colonial occupiers' element and your attempt to equate it to a casual indifference to the deaths of the vulnerable, then be prepared to show why - or, if you'd prefer not to, drop it and stop wading in when I post a comment about wanting to see improved prioritization for Indigenous peoples at higher risk during this crisis. It's getting old, and I'd prefer to be able to post news about the issue without wondering if you're going to come take a swing.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by madd0ct0r » 2020-03-27 05:29am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-26 09:32pm


You have two communities. One has 10 million people in it, one has 500,000. Both can expect 50,000 deaths from an uncontained outbreak if nothing is done. The smaller community is more vulnerable, so it has a legitimate claim on better lines of supply than the larger community. Now add in that of those 50,000, for the smaller community many will be vital to the ongoing existence of that community's history and language. The same death toll has a disproportionate impact on it both in terms of raw deaths per capita and in terms of the impact of those deaths.
out of interest Loomer, why are you assuming such a high death rate for the indigenous communities? What markers/demographics is it based on? The argument could be made on the consequence of death and loss of culture alone, so I'm interested why you are introducing that second, possibly weaker strand of argument.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-27 05:54am

madd0ct0r wrote:
2020-03-27 05:29am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-26 09:32pm


You have two communities. One has 10 million people in it, one has 500,000. Both can expect 50,000 deaths from an uncontained outbreak if nothing is done. The smaller community is more vulnerable, so it has a legitimate claim on better lines of supply than the larger community. Now add in that of those 50,000, for the smaller community many will be vital to the ongoing existence of that community's history and language. The same death toll has a disproportionate impact on it both in terms of raw deaths per capita and in terms of the impact of those deaths.
out of interest Loomer, why are you assuming such a high death rate for the indigenous communities? What markers/demographics is it based on? The argument could be made on the consequence of death and loss of culture alone, so I'm interested why you are introducing that second, possibly weaker strand of argument.
Basically, most Indigenous communities have significantly higher rates of the factors that significantly increase COVID-19's lethality. There are more smokers, more diabetics, more people with cardiovascular disease and chronic respiratory disease (even asthma and hypertension now), higher levels of obesity, and cancer fairly uniformly across the board for the Indigenous peoples and traditional custodians of CANZUS. But on top of that, there's two additional complicating factors. One is access to healthcare in remote communities, reservations, and so on, which is usually significantly lower than it is in Settler communities. The second is living conditions on those same communities, where you quite often have large, multi-generational families in relatively close quarters alongside some often shockingly neglected infrastructure and a relatively poor diet, which is a recipe for disease transmission.

The combination of these creates two elements of the triple vulnerability I referred to a few days back. Let's say we're looking at a 65 year old fella with emphysema who smokes. In any population group, he's a vulnerable person during a pandemic. If he's also resident in one of these marginalized communities, then he's got reduced access to healthcare to begin with (and thus the odds of his conditions being adequately managed and controlled is lower) and he may be living in conditions that are more likely to spread the virus than an equivalent settler fella. These are personal vulnerabilities that, in theory, any person can possess but which Indigenous peoples are disproportionately likely to. The third vulnerability is the collective cultural one, because it's quite possible this fella is the only one who can still perform certain initiations under law, and if he croaks, that initiatic line is high and dry.

So let's consider for a second our hypothetical 10% fatality rate. That sounds high, right? Well, cardiovascular complications raise your likelihood of death to almost exactly 10%, diabetes to 7%, chronic respiratory illnesses to 6%, hypertension to 6%, and so on, not withstanding the risk that those conditions will coincide with one another or with advanced age. Factor in local healthcare systems that will be overwhelmed even more easily than those of larger areas due to chronic understaffing and supply shortages and the socioeconomic factors that permit a faster spread of an outbreak in that community, and you wind up with the kind of situation illustrated. Our larger community with less vulnerable people still winds up with a nasty death rate among the infected, but the community attack isn't as serious and the system, even overwhelmed, is better staffed and equipped. Our smaller community, by contrast, gets decimated in this absolute worst case scenario because both community attack rates and fatality rates are higher, and the system itself is less able to deal with the influx of patients.

This is why there are Indigenous communities across CANZUS that are locking down access and begging for more resources to fight this thing - if it gets loose, they're fucked in a way that makes outbreaks in non-Indigenous communities look like a relaxing holiday.

EDIT:
I should note that those increased rates are specifically among patients receiving care, too.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-27 06:34am

Meanwhile in the world's largest democracy, India shows it can stop people breaking quarantine by... beating them.
https://news.yahoo.com/indian-police-vi ... 28723.html

(original source, Reuters)
Like many countries battling the coronavirus pandemic, India is in lockdown.

The police here have resorted to physical punishments for those who breach it.

Footage has emerged from Mumbai of them beating motorists with their batons.

And there have been many such incidents filmed in multiple locations.

At one point police are seen ordering locals to do squats.

And they're not the only ones given humiliating, public punishments.

Some were made to do press-ups at the side of the street.

This is a country of 1.3 billion people.

It has far fewer hospital beds than other countries currently overwhelmed by the coronavirus.

On Wednesday (March 25), it went into a three-week lockdown.

It may have only a little over 500 confirmed cases and a very low death toll compared to other countries, but it fears it could follow China, Italy and Spain.

Whether the methods police here are using to stop that from happening are the right ones is another matter altogether.
Watch the video. I am sure Radio Free Asia is now going to report this....oh wait.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-27 07:07am

HRW is having a meltdown over the multiple abuses coming out, and rightly so.

Also, I realize I didn't make it clear upthread that those numbers aren't my actual expectations or any kind of specific projection - they're mostly just for illustrative purposes, contrasting a hypothetical very fit community against a very unfit one to illustrate why one needs more resources than the other and explain my position with the helpful clarity of abstract figures. While the fatality rates and community attack rates are going to be higher for Indigenous communities, I don't know if they'll be 20 times that of others. I am neither an epidemiologist nor a virologist. I normally wouldn't feel a need to make this comment but COVID-19 is sufficiently serious that I don't want people to think I know something specific about those fields, to panic, or to go quoting those numbers elsewhere as anything but a relatively arbitrary illustrative example. Consider them equivalent to the spherical cow.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-27 07:10am

Chinese study suggest against chloroquine for covid 19, although its quite a small study, nor does it rule out the possibility of higher doses being effective.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhas ... dca7ed6092
Hydroxychloroquine Is Ineffective In Treatment Of Patients Hospitalized With Covid-19, According To Small Controlled Trial From Shanghai
William A. Haseltine
William A. HaseltineContributor
Healthcare
Results from a controlled clinical trial from China on the use of hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for Covid-19 have shown no significant differences in health outcomes between the control group and patients who received the experimental drug.

As Tara Haelle skillfully summarized in an earlier piece for Forbes, thirty patients hospitalized for Covid-19 participated in the trial. Fifteen were treated with 400mg of chloroquine for five days and fifteen received the standard supportive care. On Day 7 of the trial both groups were evaluated

The results:

CT scans showed there was little difference in the progression of the disease for those given the hydroxychloroquine treatment and those who received conventional care.

Of the thirty patients, only one patient progressed to severe stages of the disease — that patient had received hydroxychloroquine as part of their treatment.

Today In: Healthcare

How The SARS Epidemic Can Teach Us Ways To Benefit From The Coronavirus Pandemic
How Long Should Social Distancing Last? When Will COVID-19 Coronavirus End?
There’s No Tradeoff Between Targeting Coronavirus And Restarting The Economy - They’re Intertwined
93% of patients in the control group tested negative for Covid-19 after seven days compared to 86.7% of patients in the hydroxychloroquine treated group.

It took those in the control group between 1 and 4 days from the start of treatment before testing negative for the disease. It took those in the hydroxychloroquine treated group between 1 and 9 days from the start of treatment before testing negative.


The results were statistically indistinguishable, meaning there was no measurable difference in outcomes among the groups who received the hydroxychloroquine treatment and those who didn’t.

What does this all mean?

The researchers who conducted the study, a team from the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center in China, acknowledge that their clinical trial was small and a larger study would be necessary to confirm the results. The study also raises questions that remain unanswered about whether different dosages of hydroxychloroquine might bring different results.

Still, despite its limitations, the study results are important — helping us curb false hopes that may be encouraging us to abandon the more aggressive actions that we need to take to stop the spread of this disease. These results must also be considered in light of the real potential harmful side effects of hydroxychloroquine.

The full study in Chinese with a short English summary is available here: https://subject.med.wanfangdata.com.cn/ ... e1c77c.pdf
Well lets see how many still take Trump's treatment.
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