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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extractor

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Iracundus
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 10:43pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-04-21 09:35am
Posts: 115
Stark wrote:
The best part about this particular example, right, is that its so overused. Its not like anyone doesn't know the answers; there are different lasguns, different energy storage systems, the energy doesn't have to come from the fire if the heat just catalyses a reaction, the weapon doesn't have to be on full power, the example could just be bullshit.

On the other hand you have wind actually producing more power than it carries. Because... oh right - the galactic war reports could just be bullshit.


The actual units of power or the strength of the wind is never given other than in ingame units so there is no evidence or data to claim the wind produce more power than it carries. So it can power heavy machinery. So do wind generators today if you have a good location or enough of them.

In making excuses for the lasgun battery packs you are making the same error of inventing hypotheticals as gamer. There is no evidence of any of those conditions being prerequisites or of there being any catalysed reaction. All that is given is that they can be recharged from ordinary small fires. If you are proposing these additional details provide proof. Otherwise it is just as nonexistent as gamer trying to claim wind generators are not really
wind generators.

Regarding 'metal' as a term in the game, does the manual say thats just what they call their nanobot goops? I'd imagined that's what would make sense, but I wasn't sure. Is the basic storage at the start supposed to be internal to the commander's backpack?[/quote]

Yes this was quoted earlier from the manual. The term refers to ready nanobots of strategic elements. The initial metal and energy storage is from the commander backpack.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 10:46pm 

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Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Posts: 21327
Hm. Iracundus, do you think the energy in a campfire is insufficient to kill someone?
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Iracundus
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 10:54pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-04-21 09:35am
Posts: 115
Simon_Jester wrote:
Hm. Iracundus, do you think the energy in a campfire is insufficient to kill someone?


That was not the issue. The issue was the believability of simply placing battery packs in a camp fire and of them getting enough energy to recharge for many man killing laser shots when used to power a lasgun. We cannot do so today but it is an accepted bit of 40K background that this is possible for the battery packs in 40K.

If people can suspend disbelief for a hand held battery pack, I do not see the issue with TA having developed high efficiency wind generators. The actual output or the strengths of the winds is given only in game units but then 40K lasguns use their own fictional scale of megathules.
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Sea Skimmer
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 11:11pm 

Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate


Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Posts: 35348
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
You realize that 'high efficiency' still doesn't let you break conservation of energy right?
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 11:24pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Posts: 36168
Location: Brisbane, Australia
In 40k they have heaps of battery patterns for different situations, and if one is rechargable in a fire it's probably designed for low tech worlds and has specific chemistry to allow it to work probably through a catalysts reaction of some sort. So it could work, if it does it was probably designed to work that way, and if it doesn't you just discard it because of the weight of evidence and the unreliable source.

Whereas in TA you suggest you can extract more energy from the wind than the wind actually possesses, as a way to justify something. You can't discard it because it's a specific argument supporting something else. The game actually kind of makes sense at that level (ie weakish lasers powered by huge wind farms), but oh want to establish huge numbers.
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Iracundus
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 11:35pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-04-21 09:35am
Posts: 115
Sea Skimmer wrote:
You realize that 'high efficiency' still doesn't let you break conservation of energy right?


Yes but where is this evidence they are breaking conservation of energy? We do not have enough data to say the total energy of the wind in TA. We only have the ingame energy unit output of the wind generators to go on and all they show really is that when the wind is stronger so is the output. We do not have enough information to conclude a wind generator is extracting more energy than the wind has. As I stated earlier, I am not using inflated weapon yields inconsistent with what is shown happening ingame and in other Galactic War reports. Until one can get the energy content of the wind in TA and compare that to the output, it is unfounded to claim they are breaking conservation of energy.
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Xess
PostPosted: 2012-04-22 11:38pm 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2005-05-07 07:11pm
Posts: 912
Location: Near Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
JointStrikeFighter wrote:
You know if we go with ta not using mass energy converters and gigaton lasers the windmills being windmills doesn't matter because the power levels are then perfectly reasonable.


This has been pointed out previously and ignored.

gamer wrote:
You sound like you need to chill and get off the TA hate, and where am I calling for help?

Again with the windmills, ignoring fluff and just going on visuals there is still no way a regular wind farm can do the stuff it does in game, a windmill can't even power simple things like unit production factories, metal extractors (windmills may have trouble powering something that can mine out enough metal to produce entire naval fleets, from 50km in the ground in minutes), or simple defense like giant laser and plasma guns let alone provide a more potent power source than anti-matter (it would take 325 square miles of windmills to equal 1 GW of power (I think 1 nuclear reactor produces about that much power) (remember only about 25% of the time windmills are functioning at their peak power). It's probably more logical to assume the windmills operate differently than the windmills we know today and considering their equivalent of infantry the peewee fires compressed laser light and has the ability to focus the explosion into a micrometre sized area and many of their basic units throw around anti-matter, the windmill is probably not the same as windmills that we know. Then again we have the Imperium whose lasguns are allegedly capable of blowing heads off but can be recharged by leaving the power pack in the sun for a little while or throwing it into a fire. With that in mind using the same logic I can say the Imperium truly does essentially equip its soldiers with flashlights, and using this I can figure out how tough all their other units are, hell IIRC the mighty land raider is described as only having the equivalent of 300mm of conventional steel armor (Forge World I believe) so we know most 40k tanks have far less armor than modern tanks.


You've ignored everything I've said to you haven't you?

Why can't lots of really big, really efficient wind turbines power mining equipment and factories? Especially if these alien planets have higher winds than here on Earth? If they do you could get wind turbines producing much more power than modern ones, but it still won't be nuclear bomb level energy.

Why can't they use the energy generated to produce small amounts of anti-matter to use for it's dense energy storage properties to make conventional yield but miniature munitions rather than large nuclear yield ones? For example nano-grams of anti-matter and matter reacting will get you the equivalent of artillery shells, BIG artillery shells. I even imagine that that little anti-matter could be focused microscopically fine to boot to match your often mentioned weapons.

Understand that the words "anti-matter power" just mean a source using anti-matter as fuel and not a source that has to provide provides GIANT amounts of energy. Understand that "fires compressed laser light and has the ability to focus the explosion into a micrometre sized area" says nothing about the actual energy content or power rating of the energy weapon in content and only tells you the target spot diameter and the weapons method of operation.

The only reason you keep throwing these back out examples of technology that requires unfathomably vast amounts of energy to run is because you've already decided that TA technology requires unfathomably vast amounts of energy to run. But as I have pointed out, and JSF has pointed out and I'm pretty sure other people have pointed out, that isn't necessarily true!
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 12:07am 

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Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Posts: 36168
Location: Brisbane, Australia
The wind turbines are probably ok of you ignore gamer's firepower claims, but he solar plants are more objectionable. Even if you accept 30 foot robits they're only maybe 120 feet to a side and they arrangement doesn't seem very efficient (at least the stepped pyramid one). At least they'd be easier to hide from the necrons, but I can't imagine them working so good on a typical foggy and rainy necron world.
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Iracundus
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 12:22am 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-04-21 09:35am
Posts: 115
Since when were typical Necron worlds foggy or rainy? The stereotypical Tomb World is a barren arid world more like an Egyptian desert. Some Necron worlds may be exceptions and some may be on worlds that have developed new life but no such special conditions are stipulated in the scenario. The actual climate conditions are not given for this case. Even the presence of an atmosphere cannot be taken for granted as some Necron worlds are dead worlds. Without the presence of atmosphere, real world solar output rises
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Sea Skimmer
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 01:30am 

Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate


Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Posts: 35348
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Assuming an earth atmosphere and distance and total conversion of solar radiation to electrical energy a 120ft diameter circular solar farm would produce about 1.4 megawatts. This is about 1,900hp. You’d also only get peak power like this at the peak of the sun on earth, and almost nothing at all at night. This is also being very friendly to the fact that the actual solar farms seen are stupid pyramids which would have much lower effective area. A world with no air, and closer to the sun might get multiple times this much power though. The issue of night remains unless the planets rotation is locked facing the star.

Even if output rises massively and is 10 MW (I dunno how close this would have to be) and they always face the sun you still need a hundred of them to match one typical modern nuclear reactor for power. The modern earth produces around 2,300 GW of electrical power on average.. equaling this would take only 230,000 of these 10 MW ultra solar arrays. They would cover about 93 square miles, not accounting for the extra space between the circles. That's not that unmanageable an area to get all the power on earth, and still reasonable even if we revert back to 1.4 MW and have more like 930 square miles of solar. But this is also only to equal the power of the earth. If we have robots with rapid fire guns that use 4 MW per shot... boy do we need a lot more energy quickly.

Now if we get into nuclear scale firepower, a 20kt bomb is around 84 terajoules of energy. If we had to supply this from a 1.4 MW solar system, it would take 60,000,000 seconds or about 694 days to generate it all. The 10 MW plant would still need 99 days if my drunken figuring is all correct. Of course... if we have rotation to deal with and less then peak sun even part of the day these time frames will all start doubling and tripling and worse real quick.

Odds of powering massive firepower from the sun... seem low but not physically impossible if you can build and defend hundreds and thousands of square miles of solar array under near ideal conditions.
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JointStrikeFighter
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 02:59am 

Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker


Joined: 2004-06-12 03:09am
Posts: 1979
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Given the commander can build 100 solar plants in 10min and then use the output to build a fusion plant I am not seeing the issue; even in game the solar/wind plants are about bootstrapping your way to the fusion plant required for heavy weapons / mega armies
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Iracundus
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 04:08am 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-04-21 09:35am
Posts: 115
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/thre ... -0327.html

The above might be relevant for those assuming that the funky shapes of TA solar plants must necessarily equate to lower efficiency. In short, the MIT research in the article above showed that certain 3D shapes were actually more efficient than what might seem intuitively the case, and one example given is a vertical accordion structure in which at least some of the panels are angled downwards. The results claim power output from 2x to as much as 20x an equivalent area in fixed flat panels, and which outperforms in giving more uniform power output over a day in the face of potential blockage from shadows and clouds.

I am not claiming necessarily that TA solar structures are of this sort, but given how structures we might intially think inefficient compared to the intuitive face the sun approach have ended up being the opposite, it is unwarranted to jump to the conclusion that a funky shape must necessarily equate to inefficiency. One thing TA solar plants do give is uniformity in output.

The output of TA solar plants is +20 energy units per unit time. The output of an Arm fusion reactor is +1000 per unit time so 50 solar plants would equal. While Sea Skimmer estimated 100 to match a typical modern nuclear reactor, we don't have any basis to compare outputs from a TA fusion reactor to a modern nuclear reactor as outputs are in ingame energy units. A TA reactor could be conceivably lower output than a conventional modern fixed nuclear power plant, so 50:1 isn't necessarily that outlandish of a ratio. Also there is the factor that the TA reactors are built in a much shorter time frame than modern nuclear reactors which require considerable capital and time investments on the order of years before they produce anything. 2 smaller reactors up and running before a big lumbering slow reactor is built would still be better for powering a war economy.
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Vehrec
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 12:41pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2006-04-22 12:29pm
Posts: 2204
Location: The Ohio State University
But if the power of the fusion reactor is crammed down to conform to the 50:1 ratio, doesn't that do absolutely nothing at all to support high firepower? And why, with magical nanotech, would it be hard to build a boiling water reactor?
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Connor MacLeod
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 12:58pm 

Sith Apprentice


Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14055
Iracundus wrote:
That was not the issue. The issue was the believability of simply placing battery packs in a camp fire and of them getting enough energy to recharge for many man killing laser shots when used to power a lasgun. We cannot do so today but it is an accepted bit of 40K background that this is possible for the battery packs in 40K.


What do you define as 'man killing laser shots' exactly?
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JointStrikeFighter
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 05:00pm 

Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker


Joined: 2004-06-12 03:09am
Posts: 1979
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Vehrec wrote:
But if the power of the fusion reactor is crammed down to conform to the 50:1 ratio, doesn't that do absolutely nothing at all to support high firepower? And why, with magical nanotech, would it be hard to build a boiling water reactor?



Why would they bother? They can just build ten fusion reactors in 20min
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gamer
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 05:50pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2011-06-24 05:02am
Posts: 197
While I'm just about done with this thread I will point out a single solar energy collector puts out 20 energy it takes less than 1 energy for a peewee to burn down a 100+ metre tall tree in seconds, and remember it takes alot of energy to burn down a tree in seconds especially a 100+ metre tall one so take that as you will. This may not be nuclear level yields but they are still pumping out hellish amounts of energy.
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Iracundus
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 05:58pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-04-21 09:35am
Posts: 115
The Peewee bots referred to had shells, which was the background rationale for why the official Cavedog unit, the Core Immolator, had special heavy damage against any Arm units using that kind of weapon system since it supposedly triggered internal magazine explosions. The Peewee therefore is firing the equivalent of a chemical powered laser, powered by the shell.
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gamer
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 06:05pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2011-06-24 05:02am
Posts: 197
Iracundus wrote:
The Peewee bots referred to had shells, which was the background rationale for why the official Cavedog unit, the Core Immolator, had special heavy damage against any Arm units using that kind of weapon system since it supposedly triggered internal magazine explosions. The Peewee therefore is firing the equivalent of a chemical powered laser, powered by the shell.


shells made out of compressed light that can focus its power to a micrometre sized area.
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gigabytelord
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 07:06pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2011-08-23 07:49pm
Posts: 373
Location: Chicago IL. formerly Livingston TX.
Quote:
shells made out of compressed light that can focus its power to a micrometre sized area.


I'm just gonna put this out there real quick, you do realize that terms like "Compressed light" and "can focus power into a micro meter sized area" are nothing more than star trek style techno babble, right? And mean absolutely nothing if the results can't be proven in canon? And seeing as there is no official canon for this universe, this whole thread is nothing more than an exerciser in futility?

Throwing out cool sounding techno babble in an effort to sound cool doesn't actually make you cool, it just makes you a blowhard, and continuing to do so even after that very same techno babble has been rejected as viable evidence for a number of different reasons, including the fact that in several cases it either makes no sense or completely goes against or contradicts other material, makes you stubborn.

Also it doesn't take rocket science to put two and two together and get the result that a galaxy spanning race of living machines, that can heal themselves, teleport over vast distances, have the ability to flay you alive with weapons that use technology that is literally stated to be almost magical in it's existence and use, have access to what is known to be the most powerful warships in the galaxy, some of their land units have ability to phase through solid objects, and last but not least they will often use what is basically mind control tech on those they're about to attack, might have just a slight advantage in this situation...

If you want a slightly more even match, then either choose an Imperial world or do what most OPs do in their vs threads, say that half the planet is under the control of the necrons and the other half is under the control of the ARM commander and before the hostilities started, he was able to setup a good base of operations as were the crons, and then let them have at each other.
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Xess
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 08:39pm 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2005-05-07 07:11pm
Posts: 912
Location: Near Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
gamer wrote:
While I'm just about done with this thread I will point out a single solar energy collector puts out 20 energy it takes less than 1 energy for a peewee to burn down a 100+ metre tall tree in seconds, and remember it takes alot of energy to burn down a tree in seconds especially a 100+ metre tall one so take that as you will. This may not be nuclear level yields but they are still pumping out hellish amounts of energy.


Will you actually show your scaling that shows 100m tall trees? I find it hard to believe that every environment in TA is conductive to Redwood and Douglas Fir equivalent tree growth.
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-04-23 09:49pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Posts: 36168
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Ps burnt trees remain standing. Just like real burnt trees. It's hardly INSTANT INCINERATE NUCLEAR POWER here; it's a fire.

And it thought he manual said the 'bullets' were typical silly magnetic plasma bottles?
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gamer
PostPosted: 2012-04-24 02:00am 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2011-06-24 05:02am
Posts: 197
gigabytelord wrote:
Quote:
shells made out of compressed light that can focus its power to a micrometre sized area.


I'm just gonna put this out there real quick, you do realize that terms like "Compressed light" and "can focus power into a micro meter sized area" are nothing more than star trek style techno babble, right? And mean absolutely nothing if the results can't be proven in canon? And seeing as there is no official canon for this universe, this whole thread is nothing more than an exerciser in futility?

Throwing out cool sounding techno babble in an effort to sound cool doesn't actually make you cool, it just makes you a blowhard, and continuing to do so even after that very same techno babble has been rejected as viable evidence for a number of different reasons, including the fact that in several cases it either makes no sense or completely goes against or contradicts other material, makes you stubborn.

Also it doesn't take rocket science to put two and two together and get the result that a galaxy spanning race of living machines, that can heal themselves, teleport over vast distances, have the ability to flay you alive with weapons that use technology that is literally stated to be almost magical in it's existence and use, have access to what is known to be the most powerful warships in the galaxy, some of their land units have ability to phase through solid objects, and last but not least they will often use what is basically mind control tech on those they're about to attack, might have just a slight advantage in this situation...

If you want a slightly more even match, then either choose an Imperial world or do what most OPs do in their vs threads, say that half the planet is under the control of the necrons and the other half is under the control of the ARM commander and before the hostilities started, he was able to setup a good base of operations as were the crons, and then let them have at each other.


Let's see how the ARM holds up:
galaxy spanning race of living machines ....ehh sort of, the ARM are genetically enhanced super humans whose minds are completely dedicated just to war and use extremely advanced nanotech and reproduce von neumann machine style. The CORE are more like "living" machines. In 4000 years of fighting they used up most of the resources in the galaxy.
heal themselves- big check for confirmed in both gameplay and fluff their nanotech is certainly quite potent.
teleport vast distances- they can teleport the commander across the galaxy instantly
flay you alive- very big check just "unarmed" simple construction units are beyond flaying you alive they can consume forests with their reclaimation power, Necrons will probably find just fighting construction units challenging. TA firepower even without the nuclear yields from fluff seem to be way above Necrons at least on the ground. Then there is the D-cannon in which there is no defense.
magitech- compressed light bullets anyone?
mind control- again TA has mind control tech as well that involves teleporting nanomachines directly into your brain or AI computer and physically rewiring it.
powerful space fleets- fluff wise yes TA has spaceships massive ones at that using just 5 starships they can evacuate a planet of billions. Though their combat abilities are unknown so we can't really debate that. TA's most powerful weapons include a machine that works by slamming planets into each other, and in the Core Contigency game a device capable of killing galaxies.

As for giant units play a level with cars and notice how small the cars are compared to Peewees.

The only thing the ARM doesn't have over the Necrons are anti-psyker/anti-chaos weaponry and wierd abilities like phasing through walls.
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Xess
PostPosted: 2012-04-24 03:09am 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2005-05-07 07:11pm
Posts: 912
Location: Near Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
gamer wrote:
Let's see how the ARM holds up:


I was going to put in a whole bunch of stupid Necron wank in response to this to try and make you realize that just stating conclusions without any supporting evidence won't convince anyone or prove your point. A second later though I realized you'd take it seriously and I'd just get more unsupported TA claims to counter my fake Necron ones and I don't need that shit.

So here is my serious question/request in regards to this;

gamer wrote:
As for giant units play a level with cars and notice how small the cars are compared to Peewees.


I've never played TA so I don't own a copy and I'm sure as hell not going to go out and get a copy to check the size of Peewees compared to cars. You obviously like the game enough to have a copy so why don't you go out and do the work that your assertions rest on and get some screen shots of Peewees next to cars and trees. Then you can find the average size of a car and figure out how big a Peewee might be and then from that you can figure out the size of trees. Once your done that post all your screen shots and work here so we see what you did and then do it ourselves to see if we get the same results. It's really quite simple.
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bilateralrope
PostPosted: 2012-04-24 03:14am 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Posts: 2141
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
powerful space fleets- fluff wise yes TA has spaceships massive ones at that using just 5 starships they can evacuate a planet of billions.


When you say evacuate, do you mean the ship carries away the body of each person. Or do you just mean they uploaded the mind of each person into the ships data banks to install in a new body at a safer location ?
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gigabytelord
PostPosted: 2012-04-24 05:20am 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2011-08-23 07:49pm
Posts: 373
Location: Chicago IL. formerly Livingston TX.
gamer wrote:
Let's see how the ARM holds up:
galaxy spanning race of living machines ....ehh sort of, the ARM are genetically enhanced super humans whose minds are completely dedicated just to war and use extremely advanced nanotech and reproduce von neumann machine style. The CORE are more like "living" machines. In 4000 years of fighting they used up most of the resources in the galaxy.
heal themselves- big check for confirmed in both gameplay and fluff their nanotech is certainly quite potent.
teleport vast distances- they can teleport the commander across the galaxy instantly
flay you alive- very big check just "unarmed" simple construction units are beyond flaying you alive they can consume forests with their reclaimation power, Necrons will probably find just fighting construction units challenging. TA firepower even without the nuclear yields from fluff seem to be way above Necrons at least on the ground. Then there is the D-cannon in which there is no defense.
magitech- compressed light bullets anyone?
mind control- again TA has mind control tech as well that involves teleporting nanomachines directly into your brain or AI computer and physically rewiring it.
powerful space fleets- fluff wise yes TA has spaceships massive ones at that using just 5 starships they can evacuate a planet of billions. Though their combat abilities are unknown so we can't really debate that. TA's most powerful weapons include a machine that works by slamming planets into each other, and in the Core Contigency game a device capable of killing galaxies.

As for giant units play a level with cars and notice how small the cars are compared to Peewees.

The only thing the ARM doesn't have over the Necrons are anti-psyker/anti-chaos weaponry and wierd abilities like phasing through walls.


Alright those are some nice abilities, now can you provide officially supported canon to prove them, and not just links to questionable sites that may or may not be official, I'm referring to quotes from novels, video sequences (this includes cut scenes), basically anything that is, and can be proven to be, officially sanctioned by the copy right holders of the game.

Now once you do that you then have to take into account all to common human mannerisms, for instance.

Man 1 says to man 2 "Dude that hit like a truck", did man 1 actually get hit by a truck? well that would depend on the size of the truck, how fast the truck was going, and where the truck hit him, maybe he just got punched and has never actually been hit by a truck but the punch hurt so much that his first reaction is to claim that if felt like getting hit by truck, in most cases getting hit by truck would kill you, which means that most likely he didn't actually get hit by a truck... you see where I'm going with this?

All of this means that you should be able to take things with a grain of salt, including official canon.

Now please don't run and go get the salt.
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