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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Saving the the Imperium of Man

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SpaceMarine93
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 04:17am 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2011-05-03 05:15am
Posts: 585
Location: Continent of Mu
Everybody knows the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40000 is doomed:

As of 999.M41 they are barely holding out against Chaos Warmaster Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade at Cadia.

They had barely held out against the biggest Ork invasion at Armageddon.

On the Eastern Fringe the Tau are preparing to launch yet another colonization wave that would guarantee the fall of many Human sectors to Tau Empire dominance.

An entire Tyranid hivefleet bearing towards Segmentum Solar straight at Holy Terra and so far nobody seemed to be able to stop them.

The Eldar are still dying out and still refusing to co-operate.

Everywhere Heretic rebellions, Warp Storms and Xeno/Daemon invasions are occurring with increasing frequency and the armies and navies of the Imperium are too stretched out to deal with all of them.

And the worst news is, the God Emperor of Mankind looks like is about the hit the bucket when it was discovered that the Golden Throne is failing, and the Adeptus Mechanicus had lost too much technical and scientific knowledge to fix it, meaning that not only is the Astronomicon failing but it also means that the Imperium's greatest defense against the Warp is about to go off too, leaving Humanity to face a bleak uncertain future...

Here's the question - is there actually any possible way they could reverse the situation? Barring all the unlikely lights at the end of the tunnel scenarios they were given? Is there actually anyway to save the Imperium or are they all fucked at this point?
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Lonestar
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 05:05am 

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Joined: 2003-02-13 04:21pm
Posts: 12591
Location: The third best place to live in the country.
SpaceMarine93 wrote:
Everybody knows the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40000 is doomed:


It isn't really doomed, consider:


Quote:
As of 999.M41 they are barely holding out against Chaos Warmaster Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade at Cadia.


In fact Abaddon is locked up securely in the Eye of Terror. He's landed on Cadia, but since he wasn't able to get space superiority that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.


Quote:
They had barely held out against the biggest Ork invasion at Armageddon.


"Biggest"? Unlikely. There was a Ork Warboss that came close to killing the Emperor at Ulllanor. Armageddon is tottering, but the situation for Ghazhgull is such that that he "bravely ran away". Also, Armageddon is just one forge world out of literally tens of thousands.


Quote:
On the Eastern Fringe the Tau are preparing to launch yet another colonization wave that would guarantee the fall of many Human sectors to Tau Empire dominance.


"Guarentee"? Nonsense and poppycock. The Tau fleets move as slow as molasses, and while they have a higher level of technology on average, it isn't overwhelmingly so. Certainly not enough to make up the vast numbers of Humans, Orks, and Tyranids that batter the Tau.


Quote:
An entire Tyranid hivefleet bearing towards Segmentum Solar straight at Holy Terra and so far nobody seemed to be able to stop them.


So far the only real problem that the Imperium miht have trouble surmonting.

Quote:
The Eldar are still dying out and still refusing to co-operate.


So? The Imperium went 10,000 years with them not being a close ally. They are not big players on the galactic stage.

Quote:
Everywhere Heretic rebellions, Warp Storms and Xeno/Daemon invasions are occurring with increasing frequency and the armies and navies of the Imperium are too stretched out to deal with all of them.


More stretched out than during the immediate post-heresy era, the Nova Terra Interregum, or the Age of Apostasy? Unlikely.

Quote:
And the worst news is, the God Emperor of Mankind looks like is about the hit the bucket when it was discovered that the Golden Throne is failing, and the Adeptus Mechanicus had lost too much technical and scientific knowledge to fix it, meaning that not only is the Astronomicon failing but it also means that the Imperium's greatest defense against the Warp is about to go off too, leaving Humanity to face a bleak uncertain future...


Parts of the Golden Throne are failing, and that still doesn't mean anything. The Emperor hasn't spoken to anyone in his physical form since the days immediately after his fight with Horus. His soul is trapped on the throne, like Terri Schiavo. It's just as likely that he'll be a full time warp god if given sweet release from his mortal coil.

And no Astronomicon is not the same as "being unable to navigate the warp". There are large sections of the galaxy where the beacon is dim or not seen, but under firm Imperial control.

Quote:
Here's the question - is there actually any possible way they could reverse the situation? Barring all the unlikely lights at the end of the tunnel scenarios they were given? Is there actually anyway to save the Imperium or are they all fucked at this point?



It'll stumble forward, as it always does. The biggest threat in the bunch are the Tyranids, but we know that the Imperium is going to continue for at least several decades after 999.M41, so don't worry about it.
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Brother-Captain Gaius
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 05:54am 

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Joined: 2002-10-22 12:00am
Posts: 6663
Location: \m/
Lonestar covered it pretty well.

Also:

SpaceMarine93 wrote:
An entire Tyranid hivefleet bearing towards Segmentum Solar straight at Holy Terra and so far nobody seemed to be able to stop them.


looks like the imperial fists gonna have to get shit done again
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Connor MacLeod
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 11:45am 

Sith Apprentice


Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14055
The only thing the Imperium is 'doomed' to is more perpetual grimdarky status quo crap. Unless you give Dan Abnett and ADB control of the fluff or something.
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PainRack
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 12:20pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Posts: 7093
Location: Singapura
Lonestar wrote:
In fact Abaddon is locked up securely in the Eye of Terror. He's landed on Cadia, but since he wasn't able to get space superiority that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.

Except that the Necron pylons are degrading, and who knows what Abaddon might be able to do to that.

Quote:
"Biggest"? Unlikely. There was a Ork Warboss that came close to killing the Emperor at Ulllanor. Armageddon is tottering, but the situation for Ghazhgull is such that that he "bravely ran away". Also, Armageddon is just one forge world out of literally tens of thousands.

And its so significant that the intro ruleset to both the Third and Second Armaggadeon war states that if it fell, the defences of entire sectors will fall apart.

Quote:
So? The Imperium went 10,000 years with them not being a close ally. They are not big players on the galactic stage.

Well, there are all those old prophecies that Inquisitors quote, that if the light of the Eldar die out, not even the Imperium will survive.

Quote:
Parts of the Golden Throne are failing, and that still doesn't mean anything. The Emperor hasn't spoken to anyone in his physical form since the days immediately after his fight with Horus. His soul is trapped on the throne, like Terri Schiavo. It's just as likely that he'll be a full time warp god if given sweet release from his mortal coil.

And no Astronomicon is not the same as "being unable to navigate the warp". There are large sections of the galaxy where the beacon is dim or not seen, but under firm Imperial control.

Actually, if the Golden Throne fails, I can imagine several scenarios that will screw the Imperium up. The loss of the Astronomicon and long range, reliable travel is one. The Imperium for all its siege mentality is still highly interdependent and the loss of trade could screw things over. The most important thing is that the Imperium will have its ability to respond to threats speedily degraded and this might be the straw that breaks the camel back.

The Golden Throne is also connected to the Webway and the loss of the Emperor might unleash hordes of Daemons and other warp creatures on Earth, along with the loss of all her centralised telepathic training facillities. Worse case scenario of course, is that Earth becomes another gateway to the warp similar to the Eye of Terror.........
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PainRack
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 12:41pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Posts: 7093
Location: Singapura
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... Armageddon

Quote:
At the head of an Ork Waaagh! many times larger than any the galaxy had ever seen before.


Quote:
The fate of hundreds of worlds will be decided on the blood-soaked ash dunes of Armageddon...

Comissar Yarrick

2nd Armaggadeon War ruleset.
Quote:
Von Strab fled to the relative safety of thc south, to Armageddon Secundus, the industrial heartland of the hive world. Two days later the Orks invaded Armageddon Secundus and the true battle for Armageddon began. Armageddon Secundus contained 80% of the world's industrial capacity, vital not only for fighting the campaign in hand but also for securing surrounding star systems against alien threats. Ghazghkull wished to rip the industrial heart out of his foe. The only hope of relief was from the Space Marine Chapters but von Strab refused to call for help, still believing he could defeat the Orks and claim victory for himself.
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Sidewinder
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 03:21pm 

Sith Acolyte


Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Posts: 5107
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
PainRack wrote:
Lonestar wrote:
In fact Abaddon is locked up securely in the Eye of Terror. He's landed on Cadia, but since he wasn't able to get space superiority that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.

Except that the Necron pylons are degrading, and who knows what Abaddon might be able to do to that.

If the pylons degrade, Abaddon himself is screwed. With no stable means of exiting the Eye of Terror, any "Black Crusades" he launches will be reduced to mere raiding parties, for the Imperial Navy to defeat piecemeal. (To paraphrase another board member, without the pylons, ships exiting the Eye of Terror can't coordinate their attacks, because while one ship in a fleet might reach its objective on schedule, the Eye's ability to screw time may mean another ship in the same fleet won't reach its objective until YEARS LATER.)
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 03:26pm 

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Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Posts: 21324
Do Chaos battlegroups have the same problems with warp navigation that everyone else does? I would expect that their patron deities would grant them smoother sailing than that...
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Purple
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 03:28pm 

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Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Posts: 2348
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.
Sidewinder wrote:
PainRack wrote:
Lonestar wrote:
In fact Abaddon is locked up securely in the Eye of Terror. He's landed on Cadia, but since he wasn't able to get space superiority that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.

Except that the Necron pylons are degrading, and who knows what Abaddon might be able to do to that.

If the pylons degrade, Abaddon himself is screwed. With no stable means of exiting the Eye of Terror, any "Black Crusades" he launches will be reduced to mere raiding parties, for the Imperial Navy to defeat piecemeal. (To paraphrase another board member, without the pylons, ships exiting the Eye of Terror can't coordinate their attacks, because while one ship in a fleet might reach its objective on schedule, the Eye's ability to screw time may mean another ship in the same fleet won't reach its objective until YEARS LATER.)

The answer is clearly than to build the biggest ship that can possibly be built. Or outfit a small planet with engines or something.
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KhorneFlakes
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 03:31pm 

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Joined: 2011-04-23 12:27pm
Posts: 371
Location: Australia, QLD
No, the answer is to kill Abaddon because he's an incompetent fuck and defile his corpse. And use it as a sacrifice to the Dark Gods. Then you must dance to ear-raping music in a square-shaped circle until the Dark Gods are pleased enough that they vomit vast quantities of the *special sauce* on you.
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Black Admiral
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 03:48pm 

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Joined: 2003-03-30 06:41pm
Posts: 1855
Location: Northwest England
Simon_Jester wrote:
Do Chaos battlegroups have the same problems with warp navigation that everyone else does? I would expect that their patron deities would grant them smoother sailing than that...


They don't have problems to the same degree, but the benefits they get in Warp navigation only go so far; without stable routes out of the Eye, the forces of Chaos have problems.
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evilsoup
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 04:36pm 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Posts: 793
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN
Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines and spiritual liege to every Space Marine and every man, woman and child of the Imperium, finally manages to heal and returns to life. All of mankind sees the wisdom of his ways and unites behind him, and the High Lords of Terra willingly step aside for him; recognising that he is more intelligent, handsome, and all-around nicer guy than they could ever hope to be.

Even the Space Wolves, who had until now lied to themselves that Leman Russ was in any way comparable to the great Roboute Guilliman, accept his inherent superiority and greet him as their true patriarch (in spirit).

On war-ravaged Cadia, Guilliman's strategic and tactical genius allows him to defeat the the chaos space marines; the traitors (who, or course, had only turned to chaos in the first place because they knew that they could never live up to the legendary stature of such a transcendent, awesome man as Roboute Guilliman; nor could they hope to achieve the greatness of his Ultramarines) lose any semblance of morale and collapsed in on themselves, fearing the wrath of their rightful liege-lord. Abaddon orders a retreat into the Eye of Terror, but under Guilliman's guidance the Imperial fleets observe a semblance of basic competence and destroy the bulk of the fleeing Chaos forces as they try to escape.

Ursarker E. Creed, Lord Castellan of Cadia, bows down to Guilliman and says 'My lord, you truly are a tactical genius far beyond I, and the greatest commander the Imperial Guard have had the fortune to fight under.'

'MY FRIEND,' speaks Guilliman; 'THE TIME FOR LORDS IS OVER! THE TIME OF TYRANNY IS AT AN END! YOU MUST CALL ME ROBOURTE!'

What a guy.

The Golden Throne eventually fails, and the Emperor dies; but with the guiding light of Roboute Guilliman's guardianship over the Imperium, and his preternatural administrative abilities, only a tiny handful of systems are lost.

Then the Emperor returns and does his space-Hitler bit (killing a bunch of Orks and Tyranids etc). He sees how Guilliman has converted the Imperium into a well-maintained, sane society and says:

'MY SON, YOU ARE TRULY THE SPIRITUAL LIEGE-LORD OF MANKIND, YOUR ACTS FAR SURPASS MINE. I MUST GO NOW.'

And then he leaves to take part in the Ultimate Fighter Championship and gets taken out by Goku in the semifinals.
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Lancer
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 06:55pm 

Sith Marauder


Joined: 2003-12-17 07:06pm
Posts: 3957
Location: Maryland
When did Evilsoup become a sockpuppet of Matt Ward?
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Darksider
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 07:11pm 

Sith Acolyte


Joined: 2002-12-13 03:56pm
Posts: 5215
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.
Evilsoup, I know you're kidding and everything, but people really shouldn't do that because when you joke about how bad Matt Ward is you just give him ideas.
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Zinegata
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 10:08pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am
Posts: 2259
To be fair, bringing Gwilly back from stasis and having him lead the Imperium as Regent is probably going to be very good for the Imperium.

Because, to be blunt - Gwilly is seriously the only responsible adult to ever become a leader in the Imperium in anything other than a "lead from the frontlines and kick ass" capacity. His Primarch brothers are all either insane (even before the heresy), intolerant, incompetent, or house pets. The Emperor is a bonehead who does things like ban Librarians when he knows Chaos is very, very real and the Space Marines need a defense against them; and he immerses himself in stupid secret projects and then delegates running the Imperium to a bunch of tax collectors (which is one of the major reasons why Horus rebels in the first place).

Gwilly by contrast knows how to setup and run an actual empire. Not simply the "shoot and stab" portion of it - but also the economic and political aspect of it. Know No Fear reveals he actually had 500 worlds under his personal fiefdom in the heresy days, and it was probably the best-run portion of the whole Imperium in addition to being the best-defended, as the XIII was originally the biggest of the Legions by an enormous margin (200K Marines) thanks to the fact that Gwilly is apparently the only Primarch to understand the term "Reservist" and the philosophy of "Cycling veteran troops to training roles to raise even MORE troops".

Not to mention that he actually knows how to train underlings so that they can act independently and run their own shops responsibly. When Horus gets wounded and it seems he's about to die, the Luna Wolves essentially run around and circles and panic (and they come up with the brillant idea of handing him over to a Chaos worshipper. Great thinking guys!). The Ultramarines react to Gwilly "dying" in Know No Fear by NOT panicking, and deciding they have to fix the mess themselves whether the Primarch is alive or not. This sense of responsibility is so ingrained in the culture that a Sergeant sums up the Ultramarine's reaction to losing 120,000 marines, 80% of their battlefleet, and their Primarch with the the following words: "There was no command structure, so I decided to build one myself".

If the Emperor and the Primarchs played a multiplayer Civilization game, Gwilly would probably beat them all even if they're all working together against him. His only real problem is that he's aloof and doesn't actually want the Throne for himself, but that ability to put aside petty ambitions and act in a responsible manner (Do what's right and necessary vs what my ego wants) is again what makes him best-qualified to run the whole show.
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Zinegata
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 10:28pm 

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Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am
Posts: 2259
evilsoup wrote:
On war-ravaged Cadia, Guilliman's strategic and tactical genius allows him to defeat the the chaos space marines; the traitors (who, or course, had only turned to chaos in the first place because they knew that they could never live up to the legendary stature of such a transcendent, awesome man as Roboute Guilliman; nor could they hope to achieve the greatness of his Ultramarines) lose any semblance of morale and collapsed in on themselves, fearing the wrath of their rightful liege-lord. Abaddon orders a retreat into the Eye of Terror, but under Guilliman's guidance the Imperial fleets observe a semblance of basic competence and destroy the bulk of the fleeing Chaos forces as they try to escape.


LOL.

Strictly speaking though, given that the Imperium has total orbital superiority over Cadia anyway, Gwilly should really just nuke the planet from orbit until it's a glowing cinder along with all the spikey Marines.

<Failbaddon> We won! We took Cadia!

<Chaos Marine> ... But sir, they have complete orbital superiority. We're STUCK here.

<Failbaddon> Don't worry, we still have the PLANET DESTROYER.

<Chaos Marine> ... Which is used to destroy PLANETS. And we already OWN this Planet.

<Failbaddon> Shut up! No one shall defy me! DEPLOY THE PLANET DESTROYER!

<Black Legion> *facepalms as they are obliterated by their own super weapon*
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Zinegata
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 10:28pm 

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Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am
Posts: 2259
Double post.
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jollyreaper
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 10:37pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm
Posts: 1050
The Imperium isn't doomed only because of the external reality that this is a major cash cow for Gamer's Workshop and they're not going to mess with the formula.

So what you essentially have is a constant soap opera plot-tease where things are kept simmering right on the brink of a dramatic OMG moment and will never move past it. There will be more wars, more doom and gloom, new armies (gotta sell shit to the fans) but things will never settle down. Not a single army will ever be wiped out. You'll never see the Tau defeated, the Tyranids done away with, the Necrons going back to sleep. That shit sells!

From a storytelling perspective, anything is possible. It would be a goddamn nice change of pace to see an imperium civil war when the Golden Throne fails and everyone struggles for a piece of the action. I know the cruft goes back and forth about what the God-Emperor was. Powerful psyker mutant, reincarnated soul of a zillion dead shamans who killed themselves, etc. I hate the shaman idea. I prefer the idea that he's like a Caesar or Napoleon -- larger than life, writing his will across a galaxy, but just a man. But in the case of the tech and magic of the setting, he pretty much is a physical god, compares favorably to Herbert's tyrant-worm.

If a new Emperor of Man comes about, it would be possible to rediscover all of the old technology. The highwater mark that everything is slipping away from was wrought by man under the God-Emperor's guidance.

None of this will likely happen because it would be tampering with the formula.
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Lonestar
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 10:48pm 

Keeper of the Schwartz


Joined: 2003-02-13 04:21pm
Posts: 12591
Location: The third best place to live in the country.
PainRack wrote:
Except that the Necron pylons are degrading, and who knows what Abaddon might be able to do to that.


Probably...nothng? Chaos Warbands that try to use Necron tech seem to end up in deep doo-doo.


Quote:
so significant that the intro ruleset to both the Third and Second Armaggadeon war states that if it fell, the defences of entire sectors will fall apart.


Holy Hyperbole Batman!

It's a big important Forgeworld, yeah, we got it. But the fighting on Armageddon has already destroyed the industry to the point where there's serious concern on the part of the defenders that the Imperium might cut it's losses. It's acting as a big Ork magnet at this point, that's it.

And I still maintain that if a Ork Warboss can challenge the Emperor when he was in his mortal coil, to the point that Horus has to save him, then that means that particular warboss must have been leading one hell of a WAAAGH to get that big and powerful. So the invasion of Armageddon is very unlikely to be the "biggest Ork Invasion"(except "in living memory").

Quote:
Well, there are all those old prophecies that Inquisitors quote, that if the light of the Eldar die out, not even the Imperium will survive.


Inquisitors who probably deal with a lot more esoteric stuff than the "Big Picture" of fighting and killing.

Quote:
Actually, if the Golden Throne fails, I can imagine several scenarios that will screw the Imperium up. The loss of the Astronomicon and long range, reliable travel is one. The Imperium for all its siege mentality is still highly interdependent and the loss of trade could screw things over. The most important thing is that the Imperium will have its ability to respond to threats speedily degraded and this might be the straw that breaks the camel back.


Some thoughts:

(1)Thanks to the navigator gene, the Imperium can move faster than others even in areas where the beacon is dim or not seen. No matter what, the actual travel time of Imperial forces are going to be much faster than most competitors.

(2)Current Imperial reaction speeds are more a reflection of the levels of bureaucracy, not actual transit time. There are ways to mitigate the increase in transit time, and one of them is better crisis management.

Quote:
The Golden Throne is also connected to the Webway and the loss of the Emperor might unleash hordes of Daemons and other warp creatures on Earth, along with the loss of all her centralised telepathic training facillities. Worse case scenario of course, is that Earth becomes another gateway to the warp similar to the Eye of Terror.........



Yeah, Maybe. Or, alternatively, the Emperor is now a full-time Warp God no longer shackled by the mortal coil and can close the space-hole himself. Or maybe 10,000 years of him sitting on the throne Has sealed the spacehole anyway.
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PainRack
PostPosted: 2012-04-17 11:45pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Posts: 7093
Location: Singapura
Lonestar wrote:
Probably...nothng? Chaos Warbands that try to use Necron tech seem to end up in deep doo-doo.

Not if the fan speculation that the pylons are what's holding the Eye of Terror in place.

Quote:
Some thoughts:

(1)Thanks to the navigator gene, the Imperium can move faster than others even in areas where the beacon is dim or not seen. No matter what, the actual travel time of Imperial forces are going to be much faster than most competitors.

The navigator gene work by detecting the Astronomican. So, if it isn't there, what advantage would they have?

Quote:
(2)Current Imperial reaction speeds are more a reflection of the levels of bureaucracy, not actual transit time. There are ways to mitigate the increase in transit time, and one of them is better crisis management.

Except that ship transit times in terms of years and etc has been mentioned before. Sure, transit times can be faster, especially with regards to the Grey Knights, but they all rely on the Astronomican.

Quote:
Yeah, Maybe. Or, alternatively, the Emperor is now a full-time Warp God no longer shackled by the mortal coil and can close the space-hole himself. Or maybe 10,000 years of him sitting on the throne Has sealed the spacehole anyway.

So, a prophecy by a Tzeentechian cult is of superior strength to actual events that happened during the Horus Heresy, where the rip in the webway poured Daemons into the palace?
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Lancer
PostPosted: 2012-04-18 12:08am 

Sith Marauder


Joined: 2003-12-17 07:06pm
Posts: 3957
Location: Maryland
PainRack wrote:
Lonestar wrote:
Probably...nothng? Chaos Warbands that try to use Necron tech seem to end up in deep doo-doo.

Not if the fan speculation that the pylons are what's holding the Eye of Terror in place.


The Cadian pylons are found only on worlds in the Cadian subsector, so even if they're what's holding back the Eye of Terror locally, there's no reason to believe that destroying the Pylons will do anything other than let the Eye of Terror close around the Cadian Gate and destroy the only reliable passage out of the Eye of Terror.

Quote:
Quote:
Some thoughts:

(1)Thanks to the navigator gene, the Imperium can move faster than others even in areas where the beacon is dim or not seen. No matter what, the actual travel time of Imperial forces are going to be much faster than most competitors.

The navigator gene work by detecting the Astronomican. So, if it isn't there, what advantage would they have?

Quote:
(2)Current Imperial reaction speeds are more a reflection of the levels of bureaucracy, not actual transit time. There are ways to mitigate the increase in transit time, and one of them is better crisis management.

Except that ship transit times in terms of years and etc has been mentioned before. Sure, transit times can be faster, especially with regards to the Grey Knights, but they all rely on the Astronomican.


Not quite true. Navigators sense the flow and structure of the warp. This includes both local warp currents as well as permanent / persistent phenomenon like the Astronomicon and warp storms. The Astronomicon serves as a common point of reference for nearly the entire Imperium, but it's hardly the only usable point of reference, as Navigators in parts of the Ultima Segmentum are far enough out that they can't actually detect the Astronomicon.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2012-04-18 12:42am 

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Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Posts: 21324
For that matter, the Navigators were bred before the Emperor's reign, during the real peak of human civilization: the "Dark Age of Technology."
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Lonestar
PostPosted: 2012-04-18 01:13am 

Keeper of the Schwartz


Joined: 2003-02-13 04:21pm
Posts: 12591
Location: The third best place to live in the country.
PainRack wrote:
Not if the fan speculation that the pylons are what's holding the Eye of Terror in place.


Like Lancer said, the Necron pylons are only on Cadia so it's likely to be only a local phenomena. This assumes that the EoT is peristantly waxing, and we've seen no evidence of this.

Quote:
The navigator gene work by detecting the Astronomican. So, if it isn't there, what advantage would they have?


They also see the currents that flow in the Warp, not just the Astronomican. The Navigator gene was created before the Astronomicon was or chirssakes.


Quote:
Except that ship transit times in terms of years and etc has been mentioned before. Sure, transit times can be faster, especially with regards to the Grey Knights, but they all rely on the Astronomican.


Yeah, when crossing the galaxy. In one of the Last Chancers novels they cross the galaxy in a a year in less than a year. Since they were heading towards the Astronomicon then when they started off the light was probably dim indeed. Warp speeds flux wildly.

Quote:
So, a prophecy by a Tzeentechian cult is of superior strength to actual events that happened during the Horus Heresy, where the rip in the webway poured Daemons into the palace?


No, it's a declared Tzeentechian cult, big difference. The Inquisition has gone after percieved heretics before, even if they weren't, and in any event as I said the underlying assumption here seems to be that the space hole is still there. It would be an odd thing indeed if a brain-dead Emperor on lifesupport is just as capable of keeping a space-hole closed as a live one.
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Connor MacLeod
PostPosted: 2012-04-18 01:26am 

Sith Apprentice


Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14055
PainRack wrote:
And its so significant that the intro ruleset to both the Third and Second Armaggadeon war states that if it fell, the defences of entire sectors will fall apart.


I can hardly claim comprehensive knowledge given the sheer volume of stuff I've dealt with but, where is that quote stated? I've never heard of it. The closest I've heard is that Armageddon equips armies severa thosuand LY away. which makes it important on a segmentum scale, militarily. a nd it is a Naval/Military headquarters for the sector so its loss can be a crushing blow but that's different than what you claim. And 'hundreds of worlds' isnt quite that, since that can encompass a single sector.

The ADB novel 'Helsreach' had an interesting perspective on Armageddon's 'importance'


Page 300
Quote:
The Imperium demanded heavy tithes of materiel from Armageddon. If the other hive cities suffered as Helsreach had, the grade of Exactis Extremis would be lowered significantly. Certainly to Solutio Tertius, and perhaps to Aptus Non. If Armageddon provided nothing, it would be offered little in return. The Imperium would turn away. Without the support and finances to recover after the war, the world might never recover.


If it were so vital that worlds would fall apart compeltely wihout it, the Imperium would not be able to ignore it.
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Connor MacLeod
PostPosted: 2012-04-18 01:30am 

Sith Apprentice


Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14055
Lonestar wrote:
Yeah, when crossing the galaxy. In one of the Last Chancers novels they cross the galaxy in a a year in less than a year. Since they were heading towards the Astronomicon then when they started off the light was probably dim indeed. Warp speeds flux wildly.


Funny enough, I am jsut reading Warriors of Ultramar They go from Tarsis Ultra to Posul (homeworld of the Mortifactors) in about a month both ways (with minimal warp/realspace dilation.. basically a two month round trip in realspace and the warp). The distance is easily many tens of thousands of Light years, as Tarsis Ultra is way in Segmentum Ultima and Posul is on the western side of Segmentum Tempestus, IIRC the 5th editon 'Nid codex map right.

The last two Blood Angels novels had similar Transit times, as do a few other novels. Course that's for SM vessels. And its fair to note that the short story 'Consequences' taking place after Warriors of Utlramar had the same ship crossing 'half the galaxy' in 6 months in war, and 1.5 years realspace. :P

Oh and don't forget the Blood Ravens novels. Across a segmentum in a matter of days :P
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