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Board index » Non-Fiction » News and Politics


Quote of the Week: "Whereas some states possess an army, the Prussian army possesses a state" - Voltaire (real name: Francois-Marie Arouet), French writer and philosopher (1694-1778)

Syrian Slaughter Fest Continues....

Moderators: PeZook, D.Turtle, SCRawl, Thanas, Edi, Stas Bush

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Stas Bush
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 10:25am 

Glamorous Commie


Joined: 2003-02-26 12:39pm
Posts: 16133
Location: The Commune
Syria is needed for a naval base and defence acquisitions. Russia won't let the West or House of Saud, for that matter, meddle in Syria with a UN sanction.

Maybe the price offered to Russia for "backing down" on Syria was too low. Saudis should make bigger bribes.
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Sarevok
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 10:30am 

The Fearless One


Joined: 2002-12-24 08:29am
Posts: 10681
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense
Stas I have a question. The Russian role in middle east confuses me. Russia is not the Soviet Union with world spanning ideological presence and plans.

Why would Russia need naval and air presence so far away from it's borders ?
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Shroom Man 777
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 10:45am 

FUCKING DICK-STABBER!


Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Posts: 19927
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Russia should just say fuck it and send peacekeepers to the area. :P
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MKSheppard
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 10:50am 

Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger


Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm
Posts: 28163
Sarevok wrote:
Stas I have a question. The Russian role in middle east confuses me. Russia is not the Soviet Union with world spanning ideological presence and plans.

Why would Russia need naval and air presence so far away from it's borders ?


A mediterranean naval base would allow the Black Sea fleet (or other units) to be based in the Med, without the Turks holding a veto over ship movements.
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Molyneux
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 01:14pm 

Emperor's Hand


Joined: 2005-03-04 09:47am
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SpaceMarine93 wrote:
This means that the West couldn't intervene even if they aren't exhausted from the Libyan police action


"police action"? Lord, how I despise that phrase.
Any activity ending in the overthrow of a country should not be referred to with such namby-pamby weasel words.
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Force Lord
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 07:57pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2008-10-12 05:36pm
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Broomstick
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 10:08pm 

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Joined: 2004-01-02 08:04pm
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Thanas wrote:
Cowl wrote:
Perhaps if the House of Saud were to bankroll the operation, with the promise that they'll sign over half of their national oil reserves to Western powers, I would be more inclined to this venture. But then, the pebbles rarely have any input on these matters.

So you would be more inclined to invade another nation if you were bribed to do it? :banghead:

Weren't there aspects of that during the 1991 Gulf War? If I recall, Saudi Arabia pretty much supplied all the fuel in addition to considerable ground support. Then again, Iraq was an immediate neighbor they found threatening. I suppose if I had to hire an army I would have done something similar, buy the best available for the job.

That NOS Guy wrote:
Since I don't see Turkey willing to allow basing for a campaign and an Israeli based campaign is simply unacceptable. I do wonder is smuggling arms is the best thing that can be done at the moment.

Is it "smuggling" if the sales and transport are pretty open?

It does sound like everyone else is basically just selling stuff to Syrian buyers, as opposed to other nations transporting the weapons into Syria.
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SpaceMarine93
PostPosted: 2012-02-26 11:09pm 

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Joined: 2011-05-03 05:15am
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Location: Continent of Mu
Molyneux wrote:
SpaceMarine93 wrote:
This means that the West couldn't intervene even if they aren't exhausted from the Libyan police action


"police action"? Lord, how I despise that phrase.
Any activity ending in the overthrow of a country should not be referred to with such namby-pamby weasel words.


Lol, well said.

I will be frank, though, that's just how the world works. International politics since the dawn of civilization is never about humanitarian aid or promoting world peace. In the end, its all about power and influence, and avoid losing it. Every nation on Earth works only for their own interests, and in realpolitik, that's all it really matters. Anything else such as morality and ethics and humanitarianism and whatnot are all relative, at best just a justification for their actions on the international stage, or at worst something to be ignored.

In Libya's case, while I think Obama and Cameron are trying to save the Libyans, its obvious that in the long run, the West are in it for the oil. Any talk of UN sanctioned police action is only to make it legitimate (and it is technically legitimate, though its because for once Russia and China relented, and don't forget they made up the rules to begin with). Everybody knows France did it, with enthusiasm, because the French president want something to boast about during his re-election campaign.

How do you expect a leader of a nation to find the heart to care how many civilians would get slaughtered by a dictator of a country who are in your pockets when he know toppling that dictator might cause his nation to suffer badly economically and politically?

So if you want the West to do something about Syria, and the Russians and Chinese to stop bitching about it, we shouldn't appeal to how many innocents are being killed or how evil Assad is acting, the nations of the world, both East and West, do not give a fuck about how many people dies - Russia would consider them expendable so long as Assad remains in power to their benefit.

If you want Russia to stop all attempts to help Assad and block the West you have to convince them it is in their best political and economical interests to stop supporting Assad's regime (of which there is nothing to convince them with)

To get the West to intervene you have to convince them that there are some benefits to get from it (Resources, stranglehold against Russia), Russia has no hold over them (UN Veto, all that oil and gas going into Europe) and that they are not that exhausted and could actually pull it off (They are just done with Libya and Syria's more heavily armed than Gaddafi)

Unless these requirements are met, no, no intervention. Assad will win, Syria is going to descend into a bloodbath and there's nothing we could do about it. It's just how it works here.
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madd0ct0r
PostPosted: 2012-02-27 01:02am 

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Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am
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A nation is still a collection of individuals. Nations are capable of acting for entirely cynical reasons: eg British Royal Navy support and aid post the boxing day tsunami.

If enough individuals make a fuss about this, then the democratic leaders will decide the cost of not intervening will be higher then the cost of doing so.

like we did in libya, tried in kosovo and failed utterly in rwanda.
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SpaceMarine93
PostPosted: 2012-02-28 07:06pm 

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Joined: 2011-05-03 05:15am
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I'm afraid there's still nothing we could do to stop this. This is going to be a Rwanda. Did you see people in UK and US protesting in the thousands demanding their nation to help out those in Syria? Hardly. I don't think most people really give a f*** either. People have more important stuff to care about at home.
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Stas Bush
PostPosted: 2012-02-29 05:27am 

Glamorous Commie


Joined: 2003-02-26 12:39pm
Posts: 16133
Location: The Commune
SpaceMarine93 wrote:
I'm afraid there's still nothing we could do to stop this. This is going to be a Rwanda. Did you see people in UK and US protesting in the thousands demanding their nation to help out those in Syria? Hardly. I don't think most people really give a f*** either. People have more important stuff to care about at home.

"Rwanda"? Please. Even the last civil conflict when the islamist uprising was quite literally drowned in blood in Hama in the 1980s was nothing close to Rwanda.

Besides, how could the US intervene in Rwanda when the Hutus were best buddies of the French? Come on. French Africa is French Africa. Colonies or "newly independent states", the former colonial powers still fuck 'em up as they want to.

In Libya, Obama was not playing a big role. Qatari and Saudi-paid islamists provided cannon fodder for the heavier fighting in the civil war, while Sarkozy was involved to get a beneficial contract for as much as 1/3rd of all oil to be extracted in Libya after the war (as if his deals with Qaddafi weren't good enough).

So if the House of Saud and Qatar decide that the Syrian regime should fall, they could actually pull it off by sending lots of weapons to islamist insurgents just like they did in Libya. Syria will explode in civil war and after a while some sort of intervention would happen, that's for sure.
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SpaceMarine93
PostPosted: 2012-02-29 05:06pm 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2011-05-03 05:15am
Posts: 575
Location: Continent of Mu
Stas Bush wrote:
So if the House of Saud and Qatar decide that the Syrian regime should fall, they could actually pull it off by sending lots of weapons to islamist insurgents just like they did in Libya. Syria will explode in civil war and after a while some sort of intervention would happen, that's for sure.


Problem: Even if the House of Saud and Qatar decides to pull that off, Russia would not allow it to happen. They had shown their willingness to preserve their Middle East ally at any cost, if their shipments of weapons to Assad means anything. If they know full well House of Saud and Qatar are willing to help the rebels, and Saudi Arabia and Qatar makes a move, how do you think the Russians will react?
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cosmicalstorm
PostPosted: 2012-02-29 05:37pm 

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Joined: 2008-02-14 10:35am
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So what is the most probable course of events for Syria right now? It seems very doubtful that the rebels will overthrow Assad. It seems far more likely that it will be one stinking meatgrinder for the forseeable future.
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TimothyC
PostPosted: 2012-02-29 06:20pm 

Of Sector 2814


Joined: 2005-03-23 06:31pm
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Location: Visiting Haleakalā
cosmicalstorm wrote:
So what is the most probable course of events for Syria right now? It seems very doubtful that the rebels will overthrow Assad. It seems far more likely that it will be one stinking meatgrinder for the forseeable future.


What meatgrinder?

I'm just going to leave this here:

NightWatch for the night of 2012-02-28 wrote:
Syria: Special comment: Over the weekend, news video footage from Homs, the so-called center of the opposition uprising, raised questions about the actual effectiveness of the opposition. The videos showed Syrian police, firefighters and militia using fire hoses to disperse a major opposition rally in Homs. So who controls Homs? Apparently the government does, with the exception of a few photogenic neighborhoods.

A European news outlet published a city map that shows the neighborhoods of Homs based on sectarian residence patterns. The map shows that most of the videos of violent confrontations have been taken in two or three mostly Sunni neighborhoods in the south of the city.

Homs is a large city and most of it appears to experience little to no violence, based on the video footage and the map of neighborhoods. The vast majority of Sunni neighborhoods and the Christian and Alawite neighborhoods report no violence. Life goes on in most of Homs.

If the Homs firefighters and police retain the capability to use fire hoses against demonstrators, then the government remains in control in that city. That is a basic precept of internal instability analysis. Homs still has a functioning government that responds to orders from Damascus.

The point of this comment is that most US news reporting on the struggle in Syria appears aimed at grabbing headlines rather than at providing a balanced view of both sides of the struggle. Non-US news sources present a different view of the unrest. For example, it is difficult to maintain that the opposition dominates Homs, when the fire brigade is secure enough to turn hoses on an opposition rally there. US news analysts completely missed the significance of the fire brigade operations shown in their own videos..

The bottom line is that the opposition holds no ground that it does not physically occupy and then only when government forces are not present or chasing it. Homs does not appear to be under siege or under opposition control, based on German news reporting. Some neighborhoods are and that is worth further research. It also helps explain why the al Asad government exhibits no signs of panic or severe stress commensurate with the urgent statements by the UN, Arab League and US officials. More on this topic later.

NightWatch will report the results of the constitutional referendum as soon as they are released by the government.
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wautd
PostPosted: 2012-03-07 04:23am 

Emperor's Hand


Joined: 2004-02-11 11:11am
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Location: Intensive care
Stas Bush wrote:
Syria will explode in civil war and after a while some sort of intervention would happen, that's for sure.


Seems to me that's already the case. The Syrian army being at war against their own population anyway

TimothyC wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:
So what is the most probable course of events for Syria right now? It seems very doubtful that the rebels will overthrow Assad. It seems far more likely that it will be one stinking meatgrinder for the forseeable future.


What meatgrinder?

I'm just going to leave this here:

NightWatch for the night of 2012-02-28 wrote:
Syria: Special comment: Over the weekend, news video footage from Homs, the so-called center of the opposition uprising, raised questions about the actual effectiveness of the opposition. The videos showed Syrian police, firefighters and militia using fire hoses to disperse a major opposition rally in Homs. So who controls Homs? Apparently the government does, with the exception of a few photogenic neighborhoods.

A European news outlet published a city map that shows the neighborhoods of Homs based on sectarian residence patterns. The map shows that most of the videos of violent confrontations have been taken in two or three mostly Sunni neighborhoods in the south of the city.

Homs is a large city and most of it appears to experience little to no violence, based on the video footage and the map of neighborhoods. The vast majority of Sunni neighborhoods and the Christian and Alawite neighborhoods report no violence. Life goes on in most of Homs.

If the Homs firefighters and police retain the capability to use fire hoses against demonstrators, then the government remains in control in that city. That is a basic precept of internal instability analysis. Homs still has a functioning government that responds to orders from Damascus.

The point of this comment is that most US news reporting on the struggle in Syria appears aimed at grabbing headlines rather than at providing a balanced view of both sides of the struggle. Non-US news sources present a different view of the unrest. For example, it is difficult to maintain that the opposition dominates Homs, when the fire brigade is secure enough to turn hoses on an opposition rally there. US news analysts completely missed the significance of the fire brigade operations shown in their own videos..

The bottom line is that the opposition holds no ground that it does not physically occupy and then only when government forces are not present or chasing it. Homs does not appear to be under siege or under opposition control, based on German news reporting. Some neighborhoods are and that is worth further research. It also helps explain why the al Asad government exhibits no signs of panic or severe stress commensurate with the urgent statements by the UN, Arab League and US officials. More on this topic later.

NightWatch will report the results of the constitutional referendum as soon as they are released by the government.


The problem is that nearly no international journalists are present anymore, and when Syrian troops start shelling the ones that are still there then that probably doesn't help much either. I'm not saying there's a full blown genocide going on like Rwanda, but when you see footage of horror torture hospitals, it'll probably gets a lot worse before it gets any better.
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Supreme_Warlord
PostPosted: 2012-03-07 12:01pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2002-07-04 12:04pm
Posts: 149
Location: East Ham, London, United Kingdom, Europe, Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Universe
I am more than a little confused about the whole situation, especially with the likes of this...



Wikipedia wrote:
Danny Abdul Dayem is a British citizen of Syrian descent. He reported on alleged governmental oppression in Homs, Syria between 2011-2012. His news reports and pleas for help went viral and was picked up by major news channels across the globe. Danny caused controversy when he, speaking on behalf of the militant rebels, stated "we will take help from anyone, Israel, we don't care".

Evidence of Media Fabrication

Evidence later surfaced proving that his phone calls to media channels were pre-planned, and events which he claimed happened were actually fabrications, intending to portray the Syrian government as an oppressing force who was killing innocent civilians. A leaked video broadcast by Addounia TV shows him standing calmly and waiting for CNN to call him, clearly no violence happening around him. He instructs someone to shoot gunfire (to make a loud noise), and shortly after he asserts that there was bombarding, and "200 dead in the last three hours".

However, Danny denied this evidence when later questioned by Anderson Cooper on CNN. Anderson Cooper and CNN denied reports that Danny was paid by CNN to report on the Syrian conflict, with Danny also denying the claims. CNN claimed their inability to independently confirm or deny Danny's version of the events.


Danny Abdul Dayem

Although, for those championing the so called western media, they aren't exactly the most truthful/reliable sources of information either with Iraq to their credit.
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Supreme_Warlord
PostPosted: 2012-06-09 12:49pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2002-07-04 12:04pm
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Location: East Ham, London, United Kingdom, Europe, Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Universe
Alex Thomson: Syria rebels led me into death trap

The Telegraph wrote:
Alex Thomson, chief correspondent for Channel 4 News said the incident happened on Monday in the Syrian town of Qusair, about half an hour's drive from the battered city of Homs.

Thomson said he, his driver, a translator, and two other journalists were trying to return to government lines when their rebel escort led them down what he described as a dead-end in the middle of a "free-fire zone".

"Suddenly four men in a black car beckon us to follow. We move out behind," he recalls.

"We are led another route. Led in fact, straight into a free-fire zone. Told by the Free Syrian Army to follow a road that was blocked off in the middle of no-man's-land.

"At that point there was the crack of a bullet and one of the slower three-point turns I've experienced. We screamed off into the nearest side-street for cover.

"Another dead-end.

"There was no option but to drive back out onto the sniping ground and floor it back to the road we'd been led in on."

Thomson claimed that they were not led into no-man's-land by mistake.

"I'm quite clear the rebels deliberately set us up to be shot by the Syrian army," he wrote in a blog post on Channel 4's website

He said that their deaths at the hands of President Bashar al-Assad's forces would have drawn sympathy to the rebel cause. "Dead journos are bad for Damascus," he said.

Thomson said he and his colleagues eventually managed to get back to the government side. He has since left Syria.

His account was not possible to verify amid the chaos gripping Syria, but he insisted that there was no other explanation for what happened.

"They said: 'Go left.' Road was totally blocked 50 yards ahead. They had to have known."

The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists calls Syria "the most dangerous place for journalists in the world," saying that it has recorded the deaths of nine local and international reporters there since November.


Alex Thomson is well known and reputable so I don't think he is prone to exaggeration.
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Enigma
PostPosted: 2012-06-09 12:53pm 

is a laughing fool.


Joined: 2003-04-30 10:24pm
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Location: Painesville TWP, Ohio
And was posted in another thread an hour ago. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=155330
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fgalkin
PostPosted: 2012-06-09 12:58pm 

Carvin' Marvin


Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
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Location: 810 with ATOMICS!
Looks like the Syrian rebels have been taught well by their Palestinian colleagues.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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D.Turtle
PostPosted: 2012-06-10 04:31pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2002-07-26 08:08am
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Location: Bochum, Germany
Somewhat of a necro, and - as Enigma pointed out - the article has already been posted. Continue discussion in that thread.
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