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Quote of the Week: "History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban, Israeli statesman (1915-2002)

Re: Farscape Re: Nerd Level

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Dread Not
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 05:06pm 

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Joined: 2006-06-23 11:41pm
Posts: 249
Thanas wrote:
Another central theme is that the crew are a bunch of freaking outcasts and self-interested people who do not care about the greater picture that much, nor that they are competent fighters. Your insistence of them going onwards with the stealth approach is pretty bad, especially considering they are wanted everwhere. Heck, the only time they try to go the stealth route they messed up horribly and let Aeryn get captured. It was only for Braca not killing them when he had the chance (most likely due to his allegiance to Scorpius) that they got away from that asteroid.

Their second attempt was even more amateurish and had it not been for Scorpius and Sikozu (again) they would not have survived Katratzi.


While I'm not sure "stealth" is the right word for all instances, they were also covert in several other plans like with the Gammak base, the Shadow Depository and Scorpy's command carrier. Though those were before Sikozu and Scorpious joined the crew, and none of those plans went smoothly either.

Thanas wrote:
The spy thing was a last minute script rewrite.


I had totally forgotten about that. Though I found PKW so awkwardly paced I paid barely any attention to it towards the end. "Oh, I'm pregnant. I'll be giving birth on Tuesday. If you'll excuse me please, I need to eat twelve tons of food cubes."
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 05:18pm 

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Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm
Posts: 24895
Dread Not wrote:
While I'm not sure "stealth" is the right word for all instances, they were also covert in several other plans like with the Gammak base


Where they failed, got captured and had it not been for PK tech girl they all would have died horribly.

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, the Shadow Depository


which was a win for Scorpius IMO

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and Scorpy's command carrier. Though those were before Sikozu and Scorpious joined the crew, and none of those plans went smoothly either.


Yeah, no kidding. Had it not been for sure dumb luck, they would all have been dead.
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Dread Not
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 05:36pm 

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Joined: 2006-06-23 11:41pm
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I only mention those instances since you bring up the asteroid as their only attempt.

Thanas wrote:
which was a win for Scorpius IMO


I suppose in that it put him on Crichton's trail, though he's ridiculously lucky himself to have not been killed by having a massive building fall on top of him.
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PREDATOR490
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 07:45pm 

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Joined: 2006-03-13 09:04am
Posts: 1415
Location: Scotland
Incidentally, Farscape enjoyed the luxury of being showed next to Lexx as I recall which more or less is another unique look on the Sci-Fi genre. They were not supposed to be Star Wars or Star Trek showing heros fighting for duty, valor or babies. If anything they are about a collection of fuckwits thrown into a position and doing the best they can as you would expect.

While Lexx was just... borderline softcore porn Sci-fi, Farscape was more Comedy Sci-Fi but both did a good job of showing how monumentally strange and fucked up things could get.

I find the Aliens visit Earth episodes to be some of the best in Farscape as they did a far better depiction of what could happen. Crighton's disgust at the situation and the documentary analysis was suitably horrific.
Reminded me of Babylon 5 episode Illusions of Truth which did an equally awesome job of being horrific.

As for weaponising Moya... we have a bunch of self-centred individuals that are stuck together because they have noowhere else to go. They barely manage to function as a crew let alone become some sort of soldiers on a vigilante mission to take on interstellar empires. The times that they do rise to the plate has them get through on insane luck and crazy.

Seriously, our American hero boy's plan for rescuing someone he hates is to walk into a heavily armed base with a nuke strapped to his thigh. A nice indication of just how fucking nuts the stress, trauma and experiences have caused him to go from innocent wide eyed scientist to viciously desperate killer. Which Scorpy points out to Crighton rather effectively in the finale. As far as a character arc is concerned Farscape and Browder's transformation was masterful. Even the villains like Scorpius managed to get some life put into them so they have real motivations behind what they are doing beyond being bad simply to be bad.
Something which a lot of series have failed abysmally on.
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 08:35pm 

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Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm
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PREDATOR490 wrote:
I find the Aliens visit Earth episodes to be some of the best in Farscape as they did a far better depiction of what could happen. Crighton's disgust at the situation and the documentary analysis was suitably horrific.
Reminded me of Babylon 5 episode Illusions of Truth which did an equally awesome job of being horrific.


True. The documentary episode especially was masterful. There are also two great deleted scenes expanding the interactions of humans/aliens in that episode.
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 08:43pm 

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The last few eps of the first season and the first few of the second season were so effective drama-wise I didn't even realise I'd crossed a season boundary.
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-16 09:15pm 

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Agreed.


Hmmmm.....all of this makes me want to start a Farscape rewatch project. Anybody else up for it?
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Cowl
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 08:10am 

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Joined: 2012-02-14 03:19pm
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Quote:
Most likely he's talking about his rising to the occasion of becoming better skilled and mentally prepared to defend himself and his friends. In the beginning of the series he's naive, confused but optimistic. Over the course of the first season he slowly adapts to his environment and is able to learn how his new world operates. Then he encounters Scorpious and is forever changed. He becomes more confident in his abilities and is no longer hesitant to kill, but it is also clear that he is traumatized by what he suffered, and over time due to a multitude of factors he becomes less capable of coping. Browder is given a complex character arc and he does an excellent job conveying it.


It sounds great on paper, but the on-screen result was not of the same nature. Certainly we couldn't blame them for lack of trying, but Browder was unable to convey the required emotional complexity, and the direction further hampered his efforts. Example:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
him crying while slumped on the floor against a wall, in front of Crais' cell. It screamed: "We're different! He's not just an action hero!" But really, the scene in question was quite awkward, and eventually caused somewhat of a laughter fit.


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I've only ever seen the 50 minute versions on the DVDs. They may have simply wanted to stop filming extra footage that a lot of people would never see.


I'm only acquainted with the 50 minute versions of season 1.

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I fail to see how season 2 was any more action packed than season 1. There are just as many quieter more character oriented episodes in season 2 if not more, like the Way We Weren't, the Locket and the Ugly Truth. And there are just as many action sequences in season 1. They're just better done in season 2.


While that might be the case, the revised format would indicate otherwise. Even if the same amount of action was shown on screen, the episodes themselves were shorter and therefore more condensed and action-packed.

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OR it was part of a natural character arc of Crichton becoming more accustomed to his environment and more hardened by his experiences like anyone would.


That doesn't really explain the trenchcoat and leather pants, but I suppose a man needs to look the part.

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There are certainly better actors out there, but while playing Crichton, Browder manages to convey a wide range of emotions both subtle and pronounced with a more than sufficient degree of authenticity. His character is put in a variety of situations and for the most part behaves realistically.


Sometimes that simply isn't enough. Not everyone is cut out for television.

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You're being incredibly vague.


A compliment to some of the aspects of the show, although clearly overstated.

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Her performance at the beginning where she's stricken with grief but can't find anyone to talk about it is plenty convincing.


I rewatched the segment in question, and I would have to disagree. The potential was certainly there, but the actress failed to deliver the part. It came across as contrived, and was reminiscent of other scenes, more brilliantly conveyed, in different works of fiction.

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What about it doesn't make sense? Sikozu finds Scorpious intriguing for his intelligence and resourcefulness. He manages to use it to save her life and afterwards he's one of the few crew members who appreciates her company. They share a mutual hatred for the Scarrans which makes him a valuable ally. Scorpious has an agenda so it makes sense that she would want to assist him, since while on Moya she really doesn't have anything better to do.


While she might be drawn towards Scorpius' sophisticated nature, she must have also been familiar with his history of treachery and self-interest. Sikozu is no fool, and no matter how much she despises her crew mates (rightfully so, if I may add,) she wouldn't have made such a grand leap of faith. She also stood at risk of further alienating her crew mates because of her association with Scorpius.

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so I don't mind it ending after four seasons but it would have been nice if they didn't have to conclude everything so abruptly.


Point taken.

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Where are they going to find all of these mines and missiles plus the means to deliver them? It's not like they would really do any good against actual warships.


Granted, they might have been ineffectual against Peacekeeper command carriers, but against other ships the weapons would be useful. As it stood, even the most lightly armed vessel would have been capable of posing a considerable risk to Moya. And the Starburst mechanism wasn't full-proof.

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There's really no situation they encounter in the series where a weapons system of the nature you're describing would have been any more useful than starburst. The Peacekeepers had to create Talyn to weaponize Leviathans. Do you think Moya's crew could do it effectively if they couldn't?


Yes, there were plenty options in the show. The ship could have been retrofitted with limited arms capability by a weapons trader.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Or perhaps by the rebel faction of Chiana's race. A standard vessel of theirs was capable of taking out an entire command carrier.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Quote:
ZHAAN IS DEAD!


She was looking over them from beyond the corporeal realm. ;) (The builders didn't recall the ship after her death, now did they?)


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They repeatedly manage to use their skills and resources to take down foes far more powerful than themselves. Just what the hell is the issue?


The issue is not mine. The statement in question was meant to convey that for the purposes of the show, they would have stood a good chance in surviving more complicated altercations and conflicts.

---------------

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I'll answer the general point which you seem to be missing over and over again. One of the main points, nay themes of the entire series is that Moya is not a battleship. Expecting her to carry weapons or mines is contrary to that theme. Your insisting on such as a "natural evolution" is a pretty bad idea and shows you misunderstood one central theme of the show.


It wouldn't have significantly changed the 'underdog' trope. And their acquisition of considerable wealth proved that the writers were willing to play with that tiresome trope.

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Your insistence of them going onwards with the stealth approach is pretty bad, especially considering they are wanted everwhere.

Yes, wanted everywhere, thus occasioning the need for stealth and circumspection.

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Heck, the only time they try to go the stealth route they messed up horribly and let Aeryn get captured. It was only for Braca not killing them when he had the chance (most likely due to his allegiance to Scorpius) that they got away from that asteroid.

The entire show was a 'stealth route'.

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Their second attempt was even more amateurish and had it not been for Scorpius and Sikozu (again) they would not have survived Katratzi.

It should be clear that Sikozu is easily the most competent member of the group.

Quote:
The spy thing was a last minute script rewrite. The original story idea was for this to be portrayed as a love story and it should be read as this. Scorpius is the only one who listens to Sikozu and spends time with her playing chess etc. Sikozu is the only one who does not hate him or is prejudiced for what he is. Both have similar life goals and saved each others life numerous times. It is easy to see why they would choose to form a union.


While I could certainly understand Sikozu wanting to make use of Scorpius, I just can't see her 'in love' with Scorpius. It would have been a fundamental flaw in her character. She might as well pull the trigger herself.
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 02:54pm 

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Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm
Posts: 24895
Cowl wrote:
It sounds great on paper, but the on-screen result was not of the same nature. Certainly we couldn't blame them for lack of trying, but Browder was unable to convey the required emotional complexity, and the direction further hampered his efforts. Example:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
him crying while slumped on the floor against a wall, in front of Crais' cell. It screamed: "We're different! He's not just an action hero!" But really, the scene in question was quite awkward, and eventually caused somewhat of a laughter fit.


Dude, so far you are the only one who has described his performance a failure. Maybe, just maybe it is just you?

Quote:
While that might be the case, the revised format would indicate otherwise. Even if the same amount of action was shown on screen, the episodes themselves were shorter and therefore more condensed and action-packed.


Please don't tell me you really rate episodes on how much action content they have.

Quote:
That doesn't really explain the trenchcoat and leather pants, but I suppose a man needs to look the part.


Oh goddamn it. You keep harping on this stupid costume as if it really matters. It doesn't.

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While she might be drawn towards Scorpius' sophisticated nature, she must have also been familiar with his history of treachery and self-interest. Sikozu is no fool, and no matter how much she despises her crew mates (rightfully so, if I may add,) she wouldn't have made such a grand leap of faith. She also stood at risk of further alienating her crew mates because of her association with Scorpius.


Sikozu is not a perfect character. She is incredibly young, arrogant and naive. Heck, she makes several mistakes in the S4 premier episode that can be described as such:

- Getting cocky in the fight with Chiana when she had the upper hand, but knew nothing about Chiana's capabilities. Result: Got her ass kicked. Thoroughly. By somebody who cannot move as quick, or levitate, or shift gravity.
- Trusting the Grudek whom she paid off.
- Trusting the Grudek leader who tried to kill her before. (Had Crichton not intervened, she would be dead)
- Constantly insulting the people on who she is going to have to depend on.

Also, there is no indication she was familiar with his history and it should be noted that Scorpius never tried to screw her over. Heck, not even when he was close to insanity in that spider episode did he actually attack her. BTW, she is the driving force in their relationship. She is the one who initiates contact and physical intimacy. Also both are utterly alienated from the rest of the crew. It is not unlikely they would bond, especially as they genuinely seem to enjoy their time together.

You have this image of Sikozu as the logical mastermind when that is not true. Logic would tell her not to speak so arrogantly to Pilot in their first meeting (when she needed any help she could get). Logic would also tell her not to demonstrate her skills with regards to gravity to earthlings. Logic would also tell her not to irrationally demand they go after Scorpius after his capture. Sikozu is a bundle of extremes, of both a great mind and strong emotions.

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I'll answer the general point which you seem to be missing over and over again. One of the main points, nay themes of the entire series is that Moya is not a battleship. Expecting her to carry weapons or mines is contrary to that theme. Your insisting on such as a "natural evolution" is a pretty bad idea and shows you misunderstood one central theme of the show.


It wouldn't have significantly changed the 'underdog' trope. And their acquisition of considerable wealth proved that the writers were willing to play with that tiresome trope.


You call it a tiresome trope. (Dear god, please do not be a TVTropes guy). I call it what sets Farscape apart from other Sci-fi.

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Heck, the only time they try to go the stealth route they messed up horribly and let Aeryn get captured. It was only for Braca not killing them when he had the chance (most likely due to his allegiance to Scorpius) that they got away from that asteroid.

The entire show was a 'stealth route'.


Explain. I do not get what you are saying here.

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Their second attempt was even more amateurish and had it not been for Scorpius and Sikozu (again) they would not have survived Katratzi.

It should be clear that Sikozu is easily the most competent member of the group.


No, that would be Scorpius. Sikozu is second, though. And neither of them are who I would like to have in command of Moya.

Quote:
While I could certainly understand Sikozu wanting to make use of Scorpius, I just can't see her 'in love' with Scorpius. It would have been a fundamental flaw in her character. She might as well pull the trigger herself.


Why would it have been a character flaw?
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Connor MacLeod
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 03:19pm 

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Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14053
I always enjoyed Farscape for its ability to both take itself seriously at the right moments and to be silly at other times. And I always loved the whole approach with Moya and the 'outcasts' thing - it really played up the exploration and freedom they had to go about the galaxy searching and travelling, which is something I had also enjoyed in Star Trek.
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 06:17pm 

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I wouldn't say Browder was a great actor, but he obviously understood the complexities of his character. Even when he's not selling the moment as well as he might, you still know what is being said. The S1 finale has him falling a bit short in this way, but it is still genuine. It might even be an intentional part of the portrayal.
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Imperial Overlord
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 07:52pm 

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Stark wrote:
The S1 finale has him falling a bit short in this way, but it is still genuine. It might even be an intentional part of the portrayal.


I think it is. There are times when he seems a little "off" because his inflection, body language, and facial expression all convey the presence of emotions than the one he's directly expressing. It may be too subtle a performance to be appreciated by those who thought Farscape should be about tooling up to be a badass commando group in a space battleship.
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Parallax
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 11:04pm 

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It was definitely intentional, at least as far as I could tell.

Remember that Crichton was incredibly out of his depth in almost every single episode. He was not coping. His mental stability was quickly erroding. But he constantly tried to hide that via the tough guy facade, which sometimes slipped when he thought no one was looking ... or it became too much and he tipped over into 'blatantly insane' territory (eg, when he was marooned on the dying Leviathan with effectively no company and his only friend was a repainted DRD).

After his torture at the hands of Scorpius, Crichton's mental wellbeing was highly questionable at best. This accounts for the eccentric behaviour, inapprorpiate emotional reactions and odd body language. He tried to hide his instability but it became harder and harder as time progressed and he had to endure more and more abuse and general insanity.

I always considered that 'Looney Tunes' episode as one big showcase of just how bonkers Crichton was quickly becoming.
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Stark
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 11:15pm 

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Yeah, thinking about those last episodes he seems disconnected or distant in emotional situations, and I think it gives the character an interesting note to contrast his very American tough guy demeanor.

Who knew talking openly about ideas could get you looking at things a different way? :v
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Alkaloid
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 11:44pm 

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Joined: 2011-03-21 07:59am
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I though a big part of his actions in the last season were driven by absolute terror. He had been learning more about wormholes all through the show, but at this point was starting to get a grip on what wormhole weapons were actually capable of and was wetting himself at the thought of anyone getting their hands on them. Even on the earth episodes he was very leery about giving access to any sort of weapons technology at all, even the prowler.

Quote:
It should be clear that Sikozu is easily the most competent member of the group.


Um, Sikozu is so far from the most competent member of the group it's not funny. She is well educated, but a complete idiot. She has access to a lot of information, sure, but never uses it appropriately or comprehends that what she has been taught might be wrong. The first episode she is in is the perfect example, she tells Crighton that she knows her way around the leviathan because she has studied them, despit the first sentence in any leviathan textbook being "all leviathans are different because in addition to being alive the adapt themselves to the needs of their crew." So she has either disregarded an extremely pertinent piece of information because it is inconvenient, or been taught about leviathans by someone who does not know the single most important fact about them.

Quote:
While she might be drawn towards Scorpius' sophisticated nature, she must have also been familiar with his history of treachery and self-interest. Sikozu is no fool, and no matter how much she despises her crew mates (rightfully so, if I may add,) she wouldn't have made such a grand leap of faith. She also stood at risk of further alienating her crew mates because of her association with Scorpius.


Actually, she was an idiot, but Scorpius is loyal to people who are personally loyal to him. Bracca wasn't just his lackey, he was a trusted compatriot who Scorpius was genuinely pleased to see advancing his career as well as Scorpius agenda.

Quote:
And the Starburst mechanism wasn't full-proof.


What was so ineffective about starburst that they would need to deal with arms traders or space 1984 in order to strap guns to something that could think, was capable of kicking them off if they annoyed her too much and didn't actually want guns strapped to it. The ship is alive, and as rough as they are with her they do actually care about what she wants, and the only part of the show where starburst failed was when Moya was pregnant.

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That doesn't really explain the trenchcoat and leather pants, but I suppose a man needs to look the part.


No, the shows aesthetic does. Crighton and Aeryn wore dribs and drabs of Peacekeeper uniforms to contrast them with the highly polished and well presented Peacekeepers.
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-20 11:54pm 

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Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm
Posts: 24895
Alkaloid wrote:
Um, Sikozu is so far from the most competent member of the group it's not funny. She is well educated, but a complete idiot. She has access to a lot of information, sure, but never uses it appropriately or comprehends that what she has been taught might be wrong.


This is too harsh. Without Sikozu, they all would have been dead numerous times. Nevermind she grows fast, by the time of Katratzi I had her ranked as 3 or 2.

Quote:
The first episode she is in is the perfect example, she tells Crighton that she knows her way around the leviathan because she has studied them, despit the first sentence in any leviathan textbook being "all leviathans are different because in addition to being alive the adapt themselves to the needs of their crew." So she has either disregarded an extremely pertinent piece of information because it is inconvenient, or been taught about leviathans by someone who does not know the single most important fact about them.


Meh. That is not her fault. A far better explanation is that her trainers only had limited information (not surprising, seeing it is Scarran space). Note that she still knows far more about Leviathans than any of them.
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Alkaloid
PostPosted: 2012-02-21 12:01am 

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Quote:
Meh. That is not her fault. A far better explanation is that her trainers only had limited information (not surprising, seeing it is Scarran space). Note that she still knows far more about Leviathans than any of them.


Knows them well enough to have access to a blueprint for at least one leviathan, and be able to show where the easiest access to the leviathans brain matter is, and teach her enough so she feels she has 'studied' them, but not well enough to know even the most basic information about its life cycle? That's an odd thing to have missed.
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-21 12:12am 

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Alkaloid wrote:
Knows them well enough to have access to a blueprint for at least one leviathan, and be able to show where the easiest access to the leviathans brain matter is, and teach her enough so she feels she has 'studied' them, but not well enough to know even the most basic information about its life cycle? That's an odd thing to have missed.


Why? For all we know they found one dead leviathan and all leviathans share some central traits (e.g. location of brain matter etc). Point is, labelling Sikozu an "idiot" for not knowing every detail about Leviathans (due to being a scarran subject) when the entire crew knows less than her is pretty bad.
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Alkaloid
PostPosted: 2012-02-21 12:50am 

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Quote:
Why? For all we know they found one dead leviathan and all leviathans share some central traits (e.g. location of brain matter etc). Point is, labelling Sikozu an "idiot" for not knowing every detail about Leviathans (due to being a scarran subject) when the entire crew knows less than her is pretty bad.


She's not an idiot because she doesn't know leviathans. She may have known more in theory about leviathans than the rest of the crew (I'm not so sure of that myself, because they do actually do repairs on the ship throughout the show) but they clearly had more information than just finding a dead ship. She knew where old leviathans went to die because it was traditional, so at some point whoever taught her, or wrote her textbooks or whatever, had learned enough about leviathans to know about their funeral rituals, but had somehow missed important information about their development that effected every leviathan in the galaxy. Sikozu either dismissed this information out of hand, or was educated by someone that was incompetent. This is a pattern of behaviour that continues, she assumes she knows best all the time, even though she is often out of her depth, doesn't share information and while she does eventually become a useful contributor, her contributions largely consist of advising people to listen to Scorpius, which is good advice because he is pretty switched on but his interests are often contrary to everyone else on the ship, and they know that but Sikozu is still unable to understand why they don't take her advice.
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Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-21 09:06am 

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Alkaloid wrote:
Quote:
Why? For all we know they found one dead leviathan and all leviathans share some central traits (e.g. location of brain matter etc). Point is, labelling Sikozu an "idiot" for not knowing every detail about Leviathans (due to being a scarran subject) when the entire crew knows less than her is pretty bad.


She's not an idiot because she doesn't know leviathans. She may have known more in theory about leviathans than the rest of the crew (I'm not so sure of that myself, because they do actually do repairs on the ship throughout the show) but they clearly had more information than just finding a dead ship. She knew where old leviathans went to die because it was traditional, so at some point whoever taught her, or wrote her textbooks or whatever, had learned enough about leviathans to know about their funeral rituals, but had somehow missed important information about their development that effected every leviathan in the galaxy. Sikozu either dismissed this information out of hand, or was educated by someone that was incompetent.


The first alternative is pretty out of character. It is far more likely that the information she got was incomplete. For example, finding the burial ground was alll her.


Quote:
This is a pattern of behaviour that continues, she assumes she knows best all the time, even though she is often out of her depth, doesn't share information and while she does eventually become a useful contributor, her contributions largely consist of advising people to listen to Scorpius, which is good advice because he is pretty switched on but his interests are often contrary to everyone else on the ship, and they know that but Sikozu is still unable to understand why they don't take her advice.


Really now? You must have missed about a third of the season 4 then. This is a totally inaccurate portrayal of her. Heck, it even is inaccurate for the second and third episode.
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Optimus Metallus
PostPosted: 2012-02-22 03:35am 

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Quote:
It may be too subtle a performance to be appreciated by those who thought Farscape should be about tooling up to be a badass commando group in a space battleship.


Sounds like someone's who's played way too much D&D. Or Rifts.
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Cowl
PostPosted: 2012-02-23 03:48pm 

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Thanas wrote:
Dude, so far you are the only one who has described his performance a failure. Maybe, just maybe it is just you?

For further proof, review the last two seasons of SG-1, when the Farscapers were brought in to preside over the sinking ship that was Stargate: SG-1.

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Please don't tell me you really rate episodes on how much action content they have.

As a detracting factor? It didn't exactly weigh in the series' favor, now did it, especially considering the quality of the various sound effects that accompanied the many fisticuffs and shoot-outs.

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Oh goddamn it. You keep harping on this stupid costume as if it really matters. It doesn't.

Of course it does. It was a questionable decision on the part of the producers, and quite aptly illustrated the new direction the show was heading into. Fortunately it wasn't all bad.

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Sikozu is not a perfect character. She is incredibly young, arrogant and naive. Heck, she makes several mistakes in the S4 premier episode that can be described as such:

- Getting cocky in the fight with Chiana when she had the upper hand, but knew nothing about Chiana's capabilities. Result: Got her ass kicked. Thoroughly. By somebody who cannot move as quick, or levitate, or shift gravity.
- Trusting the Grudek whom she paid off.
- Trusting the Grudek leader who tried to kill her before. (Had Crichton not intervened, she would be dead)
- Constantly insulting the people on who she is going to have to depend on.

"when she had the upper hand"

She was obviously injured, yet still managed to introduce Chiana to the floor in only two kicks. And for the remainder I'm sure she would have had a back-up plan.

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Also, there is no indication she was familiar with his history and it should be noted that Scorpius never tried to screw her over. Heck, not even when he was close to insanity in that spider episode did he actually attack her. BTW, she is the driving force in their relationship. She is the one who initiates contact and physical intimacy. Also both are utterly alienated from the rest of the crew. It is not unlikely they would bond, especially as they genuinely seem to enjoy their time together.

It's doubtful that she wouldn't have heard about Scorpius' background on that ship.

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You have this image of Sikozu as the logical mastermind when that is not true. Logic would tell her not to speak so arrogantly to Pilot in their first meeting (when she needed any help she could get). Logic would also tell her not to demonstrate her skills with regards to gravity to earthlings. Logic would also tell her not to irrationally demand they go after Scorpius after his capture. Sikozu is a bundle of extremes, of both a great mind and strong emotions.

She probably needed Scorpius for her plans with regards to the Scarrans. And at the time she narrowly escaped death by using her gravity trick. Crichton survived because of his pulse-pistol. And she was probably unfamiliar with the role of Pilot, and his status amongst the crew. The Peacekeepers treated Pilots in a similar manner.

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You call it a tiresome trope. (Dear god, please do not be a TVTropes guy). I call it what sets Farscape apart from other Sci-fi.

And I would call it a note in favor of my view.

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Explain. I do not get what you are saying here.

Stealth route = escaped convicts evading capture. Not much to see here.

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No, that would be Scorpius. Sikozu is second, though. And neither of them are who I would like to have in command of Moya.

Scorpius wouldn't be able to do half the things that Sikozu does.

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Why would it have been a character flaw?

A fatal character flaw.
   Profile |  

Thanas
PostPosted: 2012-02-23 06:56pm 

Magister


Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm
Posts: 24895
Cowl wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Dude, so far you are the only one who has described his performance a failure. Maybe, just maybe it is just you?

For further proof, review the last two seasons of SG-1, when the Farscapers were brought in to preside over the sinking ship that was Stargate: SG-1.


I have not watched them. Again, it is just you that holds this opinion in this thread. So unless you get some more poeple thinking Browder's portrayal was the suck, I suggest you desist from this argument.


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Oh goddamn it. You keep harping on this stupid costume as if it really matters. It doesn't.

Of course it does. It was a questionable decision on the part of the producers, and quite aptly illustrated the new direction the show was heading into. Fortunately it wasn't all bad.


No, it really doesn't matter much. I might just as well go "PEACEKEEPER ALL BLACK RARGH". Unless you can illustrate a point here this does not matter.

Quote:
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Sikozu is not a perfect character. She is incredibly young, arrogant and naive. Heck, she makes several mistakes in the S4 premier episode that can be described as such:

- Getting cocky in the fight with Chiana when she had the upper hand, but knew nothing about Chiana's capabilities. Result: Got her ass kicked. Thoroughly. By somebody who cannot move as quick, or levitate, or shift gravity.
- Trusting the Grudek whom she paid off.
- Trusting the Grudek leader who tried to kill her before. (Had Crichton not intervened, she would be dead)
- Constantly insulting the people on who she is going to have to depend on.

"when she had the upper hand"

She was obviously injured, yet still managed to introduce Chiana to the floor in only two kicks. And for the remainder I'm sure she would have had a back-up plan.


No, she had no back-up plan. As evidenced by her reaction when Chrichton pulled it. Besides, she had earlier had to flee, suggesting she was powerless against the Grudeks. And her fight with Chiana was pitiful.

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It's doubtful that she wouldn't have heard about Scorpius' background on that ship.


No, not really, considering nobody ever explained a damned thing to her.



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She probably needed Scorpius for her plans with regards to the Scarrans. And at the time she narrowly escaped death by using her gravity trick. Crichton survived because of his pulse-pistol. And she was probably unfamiliar with the role of Pilot, and his status amongst the crew. The Peacekeepers treated Pilots in a similar manner.


All of those are excuse for acting arrogant and stupid which I am not buying.

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And I would call it a note in favor of my view.


Again, you are the only one who thinks Moya should have carried weapons.

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Stealth route = escaped convicts evading capture. Not much to see here.


They already tried that. Numerous times.

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No, that would be Scorpius. Sikozu is second, though. And neither of them are who I would like to have in command of Moya.

Scorpius wouldn't be able to do half the things that Sikozu does.


Like what?

Quote:
A fatal character flaw.


In your opinion, of which you are of course alone. Heck, even the actress portraying Sikozu thinks so.
   Profile |  

Dread Not
PostPosted: 2012-02-23 07:40pm 

Padawan Learner


Joined: 2006-06-23 11:41pm
Posts: 249
Cowl wrote:
It sounds great on paper, but the on-screen result was not of the same nature. Certainly we couldn't blame them for lack of trying, but Browder was unable to convey the required emotional complexity, and the direction further hampered his efforts. Example:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
him crying while slumped on the floor against a wall, in front of Crais' cell. It screamed: "We're different! He's not just an action hero!" But really, the scene in question was quite awkward, and eventually caused somewhat of a laughter fit.


You're seriously going to get bent out of shape over that scene? Do you not understand how people actually behave? He's speaking to him with barely restrained contempt. He's spent a year torn from his family while being hunted by the maniac sitting in front of him. He's been tortured half to death and the woman he cared for was recently shot before his eyes. But clearly if his character shows some vulnerability it's because the writers are trying to be soooo different. Don't tell me, Martin Riggs sobbing in loneliness over his wife's death and sticking a gun in his mouth was the Lethal Weapon writers trying to be different. Captain Picard breaking down into tears while recounting his experiences of being assimilated to his brother was the TNG writers trying to be different. All of the attempts to write relatable heroic characters with some depth has nothing to do with trying to tell a good story and everything to do with trying to be "different."

Cowl wrote:
While that might be the case, the revised format would indicate otherwise. Even if the same amount of action was shown on screen, the episodes themselves were shorter and therefore more condensed and action-packed.


It's a 4 fucking minute difference! The season 1 episodes are 48 minutes long and the rest are 44, and there are 44 minute versions of season 1 that cut out redundant scenes. This isn't the massive shift you're trying to paint it as. Why do you assume that action sequences in later seasons were not shortened along with everything else?

Cowl wrote:
That doesn't really explain the trenchcoat and leather pants, but I suppose a man needs to look the part.


Oh for the sake of fuck. Perhaps his IASA jumpsuits and khaki pants became ruined after a year's worth of dangerous encounters. Perhaps he'd never worn leather pants before for fear of mockery from other humans and once he tried them on to masquerade as a peacekeeper he never wanted to wear anything else. Perhaps he did what most people do and adjusted his attire to fit in.

Cowl wrote:
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You're being incredibly vague.


A compliment to some of the aspects of the show, although clearly overstated.


:roll:

Cowl wrote:
While she might be drawn towards Scorpius' sophisticated nature, she must have also been familiar with his history of treachery and self-interest. Sikozu is no fool, and no matter how much she despises her crew mates (rightfully so, if I may add,) she wouldn't have made such a grand leap of faith. She also stood at risk of further alienating her crew mates because of her association with Scorpius.


What treachery? Where he puts Crais in the Aurora chair after stumbling upon evidence that he's a traitor? Where he assumes command of Crais' ship because he's clearly unfit for command? Where he plans to kill Natira after she had attempted to sabotage his ship? Might I remind you that Scorpious does NOT betray Sikozu until she betrays him? Scorpious is ruthless, not treacherous. He's loyal to those who help him.

Cowl wrote:
Granted, they might have been ineffectual against Peacekeeper command carriers, but against other ships the weapons would be useful. As it stood, even the most lightly armed vessel would have been capable of posing a considerable risk to Moya. And the Starburst mechanism wasn't full-proof.


You're proposing launching mines and missiles out of the cargo bays. Do I really have to explain how useless that is? They would have a better shot sending Aeryn out in her Prowler. And the only time Starburst wasn't "full-proof" was while she was pregnant

Cowl wrote:
Yes, there were plenty options in the show. The ship could have been retrofitted with limited arms capability by a weapons trader.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Or perhaps by the rebel faction of Chiana's race. A standard vessel of theirs was capable of taking out an entire command carrier.


Yeah, they're going to enter the space of a race that nearly brainwashed them into a life of subservience, in the hopes of finding their super secret rebel group who will hopefully strap some weapons onto Moya out of the goodness of their hearts. I'll say again, if strapping weapons to the hull of a Leviathan were an easy job, the peacekeepers would have done it. Until season 3 they could barely feed themselves, and even after that Moya being an overall a non-violent being would still not have approved after seeing her son's violent nature.

Cowl wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Quote:
ZHAAN IS DEAD!


She was looking over them from beyond the corporeal realm. ;) (The builders didn't recall the ship after her death, now did they?)


:roll: Yeah, she was keeping such a close eye on them that Stark went in the exact opposite direction in search of her and wasn't heard from again until the end of the series. You think the builders would recall Moya if she were no longer under the care of Zhaan but they wouldn't if Moya had a death cannon mounted on her hull? And even if Zhaan were still there, do you think she would approve of weaponizing Moya after pleading that she wouldn't be used as an instrument of war?

Cowl wrote:
The issue is not mine. The statement in question was meant to convey that for the purposes of the show, they would have stood a good chance in surviving more complicated altercations and conflicts.


They DO survive complicated altercations and conflicts. They destroy the Gammak base. They rob and destroy the Shadow Depository. They manage to destroy a command carrier and foil Scorpius' wormhole research. They destroy Katratzi and cripple the Scarrans in the process. They end a fucking interstellar war. What more do you want? For them to sneak in and plant explosives in an entire armada's worth of ships and then blow them all away? Or do you just want them to make it look easy? Because y'know, the heroes waltzing towards victory makes for such great drama.

Cowl wrote:
For further proof, review the last two seasons of SG-1, when the Farscapers were brought in to preside over the sinking ship that was Stargate: SG-1.


Cameron Mitchell was a shitty character because of shitty writing, not acting. He was a bland and flat with no depth or direction. What do you expect people to say? "Oh I really enjoyed Browder's performance on Farscape but since we played a forgettable character on a show where the writers had long since run out of ideas I guess I didn't actually enjoy Browder's performance on Farscape.

Cowl wrote:
As a detracting factor? It didn't exactly weigh in the series' favor, now did it, especially considering the quality of the various sound effects that accompanied the many fisticuffs and shoot-outs.


Christ, you'll whine about anything won't you? How about next you tell us which character's haircut dragged the series down?

Cowl wrote:
Of course it does. It was a questionable decision on the part of the producers, and quite aptly illustrated the new direction the show was heading into.


And I guess Luke not wearing his farmer boy pajamas in Empire was evidence that Lucas thought audiences found him boring and that he needed to take his new film in a huuuuuge new direction? Or that Aang's new outfits in season 3 of Avatar were because Aang "started to bore audiences."
   Profile |  

Cowl
PostPosted: 2012-02-24 07:44am 

Youngling


Joined: 2012-02-14 03:19pm
Posts: 70
Quote:
I have not watched them. Again, it is just you that holds this opinion in this thread. So unless you get some more poeple thinking Browder's portrayal was the suck, I suggest you desist from this argument.

That would be the bandwagon fallacy, and I fail to see how you've acquired a representative number of people to solidify your argument. But I'm more to willing to agree that we harbor different opinions on the matter, it's of no importance.

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No, it really doesn't matter much. I might just as well go "PEACEKEEPER ALL BLACK RARGH". Unless you can illustrate a point here this does not matter.

That would be another questionable decision on the part of the producers of the show: leather-clad space nazis -- a familiar trope. But I have no interest in pursuing that one in this thread.

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No, she had no back-up plan. As evidenced by her reaction when Chrichton pulled it. Besides, she had earlier had to flee, suggesting she was powerless against the Grudeks. And her fight with Chiana was pitiful.

If she was Sebacean, Luxan, Human or Nebari she would have already bled to death and/or been in a state of shock, bordering on death. Instead she took out the Nebari in two kicks.

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No, not really, considering nobody ever explained a damned thing to her.

That was shown on screen you mean?

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All of those are excuse for acting arrogant and stupid which I am not buying.

Perhaps her proximity to lesser beings has that effect on the Kalish?

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Again, you are the only one who thinks Moya should have carried weapons.

She was already carrying weapons: the prowler, the cloaking ship and a defensive shield. A couple of space mines wouldn't have mattered.

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Like what?

Like not overheating in the midst of a battle?

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In your opinion, of which you are of course alone. Heck, even the actress portraying Sikozu thinks so.

Actors/actresses typically tow the line, in order to better sell the product.


----------------
Dread Not wrote:
You're seriously going to get bent out of shape over that scene?

I take it you're now referring to my laughter fit?

Quote:
Do you not understand how people actually behave? He's speaking to him with barely restrained contempt. He's spent a year torn from his family while being hunted by the maniac sitting in front of him. He's been tortured half to death and the woman he cared for was recently shot before his eyes. But clearly if his character shows some vulnerability it's because the writers are trying to be soooo different.

When such vulnerability is felt, one would normally retreat to a place of solitude, or perhaps a close confidant, in order to solicit commiseration. The hallway in front of Crais' cell does not enter into the equation. And 'guy talk' would not be suitable as a social pretext.

Quote:
Don't tell me, Martin Riggs sobbing in loneliness over his wife's death and sticking a gun in his mouth was the Lethal Weapon writers trying to be different.

I wouldn't even have thought to compare the two. And rewatching the scene in question I now recall why it was so ludicrous. It was a shameless plot device to get both of them to work together.

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Captain Picard breaking down into tears while recounting his experiences of being assimilated to his brother was the TNG writers trying to be different. All of the attempts to write relatable heroic characters with some depth has nothing to do with trying to tell a good story and everything to do with trying to be "different."

Perhaps if you had chosen the scene where Picard starts to bawl/rage/whatever in First Contact, I would have agreed to some similarities. In that it was both out of character, and ludicrous.

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It's a 4 fucking minute difference! The season 1 episodes are 48 minutes long and the rest are 44, and there are 44 minute versions of season 1 that cut out redundant scenes. This isn't the massive shift you're trying to paint it as. Why do you assume that action sequences in later seasons were not shortened along with everything else?

Nice try, but it wasn't 4 minutes (some episodes were 52 minutes, whereas some episodes in the later seasons could be as short as 40), nor was it meant to signify a 'massive shift'. Changes were made, some for the better, other for the worse.

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Oh for the sake of fuck. Perhaps his IASA jumpsuits and khaki pants became ruined after a year's worth of dangerous encounters. Perhaps he'd never worn leather pants before for fear of mockery from other humans and once he tried them on to masquerade as a peacekeeper he never wanted to wear anything else. Perhaps he did what most people do and adjusted his attire to fit in.

Changes in the appearance of a character at the start of a new season, when accompanied with additional changes in the format, are not something easily ignored.

Quote:
What treachery? Where he puts Crais in the Aurora chair after stumbling upon evidence that he's a traitor? Where he assumes command of Crais' ship because he's clearly unfit for command? Where he plans to kill Natira after she had attempted to sabotage his ship? Might I remind you that Scorpious does NOT betray Sikozu until she betrays him? Scorpious is ruthless, not treacherous. He's loyal to those who help him.

He betrayed both the Scarrans and Peacekeepers numerous times, and ran a secret ops facility in a ruthless military hierarchy where backstabbing and duplicity were of the order of the day. And both Natira and Scorpius had cause to distrust each other, as was hinted at in the episode in question. Betrayal is a given.

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You're proposing launching mines and missiles out of the cargo bays. Do I really have to explain how useless that is? They would have a better shot sending Aeryn out in her Prowler. And the only time Starburst wasn't "full-proof" was while she was pregnant

The Farscape equivalents to 'mines' and 'missiles'. I'm sure the writers would have found something suitable. And I believe in one episode the Peacekeepers were able to track Moya, despite the starburst mechanism. In another episode starburst would not function at all, as they were in a nebula system (whatever) of some sort.

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Yeah, they're going to enter the space of a race that nearly brainwashed them into a life of subservience, in the hopes of finding their super secret rebel group who will hopefully strap some weapons onto Moya out of the goodness of their hearts.

Lovely sentiments, but if the writers would have taken this avenue, I'm sure that they would have written an appropriate story line.

Quote:
I'll say again, if strapping weapons to the hull of a Leviathan were an easy job, the peacekeepers would have done it. Until season 3 they could barely feed themselves, and even after that Moya being an overall a non-violent being would still not have approved after seeing her son's violent nature.

It's a big universe, perhaps it was simply not economically viable for the Peacekeepers to militarize them in another way. But as you say, they received a substantial amount of wealth at some point, which they could have utilized for equipping suitable armaments. And Moya's sentiments would have been an interesting plot line.

Quote:
:roll: Yeah, she was keeping such a close eye on them that Stark went in the exact opposite direction in search of her and wasn't heard from again until the end of the series. You think the builders would recall Moya if she were no longer under the care of Zhaan but they wouldn't if Moya had a death cannon mounted on her hull? And even if Zhaan were still there, do you think she would approve of weaponizing Moya after pleading that she wouldn't be used as an instrument of war?

Who said anything about a death canon? And I believe it was hinted at that Zhaan was still looking over the vessel.

Quote:
They DO survive complicated altercations and conflicts. They destroy the Gammak base. They rob and destroy the Shadow Depository. They manage to destroy a command carrier and foil Scorpius' wormhole research. They destroy Katratzi and cripple the Scarrans in the process. They end a fucking interstellar war. What more do you want? For them to sneak in and plant explosives in an entire armada's worth of ships and then blow them all away? Or do you just want them to make it look easy? Because y'know, the heroes waltzing towards victory makes for such great drama.

Fascinating read, but if you would care to look up the line in question, you would see that I had written that they were at their 'strongest' and thus had more striking capability -- a point of observation that is not easily misread. Never did I suggest that they were an elite space-Jihadist movement, with Osama bin Crichton running a pan-galactic terrorist network.

Quote:
Cameron Mitchell was a shitty character because of shitty writing, not acting. He was a bland and flat with no depth or direction. What do you expect people to say? "Oh I really enjoyed Browder's performance on Farscape but since we played a forgettable character on a show where the writers had long since run out of ideas I guess I didn't actually enjoy Browder's performance on Farscape.

At one point he was looking in the camera.

Quote:
Christ, you'll whine about anything won't you? How about next you tell us which character's haircut dragged the series down?

You seem to be too emotionally invested in this discussion. And yes, a haircut could mean quite a lot on screen. I need only look to Nicolas Cage and his crazy bird-nest haircuts.

Quote:
And I guess Luke not wearing his farmer boy pajamas in Empire was evidence that Lucas thought audiences found him boring and that he needed to take his new film in a huuuuuge new direction? Or that Aang's new outfits in season 3 of Avatar were because Aang "started to bore audiences."

Avatar? How old are you again?

---

Anyway, I believe this discussion has run its course. :mrgreen:
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