StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people
Login   Register FAQ    Search

View unanswered posts | View active topics


It is currently 2014-12-22 08:06am (All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ])

Board index » Fiction » Science Fiction » Star Wars vs Star Trek


Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

ST v SW

Moderator: Vympel

Post new topic Post a reply  Page 12 of 17
 [ 404 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 17  Next
  Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message

Connor MacLeod
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-25 08:38pm 

Sith Apprentice


Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14059
Destructionator XIII wrote:
I think body armor would cost lives.

If the armor blocks stun blasts, that will just encourage the enemy to use kill settings instead.

You can walk away from being stunned a while later. Not so if you're atomized.


Doesn't that same logic apply to cover? We've seen phasers disintigrate massive volumes of material (rock, ice, etc.) and if there is no material dependence then the max power disintegrations should make the concept of taking cover a joke. Phaser battles would literally be dependent upon attrition and shooting speeds.

Also, not all kill settings disintegrate either.
   Profile |  

S.L.Acker
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 08:11am 

BANNED


Joined: 2011-12-22 03:47pm
Posts: 425
Anything you can do that forces the enemy to aim for a smaller target or use more power per shot is a win for the other side. However any armor that can be made will always add weight and limit mobility and it's always better to dodge a shot than let your armor take it. It might also be that things such as a wide angle stun don't take much to stop but require full body armor, thus going for a simple breastplate won't do anything but force a slight change in tactics.

Based on what we've seen a riot shield made of something at least as strong as the infamous crates seems the best bet, it should be large enough to hide most of you behind meaning that a helmet and boots might be all that is needed to avoid things like a wide angled phaser shot. A pair or trio of starfleet security officers in riot gear will cover the width of most corridors. Given that the most commonly used phaser is fired one handed this doesn't even force you into using a less effective sidearm compared to a two handed rifle.

However it's hard to say if such a shield could be made light and strong enough to do anything more than simply forcing your enemy into dialing up his weapon to vaporize. It's also hard to say if a shield that stops a phaser will do anything against a blaster.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 11:09am 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
S.L.Acker wrote:
It's also hard to say if a shield that stops a phaser will do anything against a blaster.

Replicate a human corpse to hold in front of you. Human tissue has proven incredibly resitent to blaster fire. See the same shots that explode like grenades on the Tantive causing light burns on Lea in RotJ.
   Profile |  

Darth Tedious
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 09:25pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2011-01-16 09:48pm
Posts: 1070
Cesario wrote:
S.L.Acker wrote:
It's also hard to say if a shield that stops a phaser will do anything against a blaster.

Replicate a human corpse to hold in front of you. Human tissue has proven incredibly resitent to blaster fire. See the same shots that explode like grenades on the Tantive causing light burns on Lea in RotJ.

Leaving aside the issue of having multiple power settings, I'm going to ask you a simple question:

Are you under the impression that the guns we see used in RotJ are the same type as the ones we see in ANH?
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 09:35pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
You're right. It is entirely possible that the Legion of the Emperor's best troops were equiped with inferior weapons to Vader's raiding party in ANH. That would be a great way to excuse the piss-poor performance of these supposedly highly trained elites.

I mean, when the people on Vader's raiding party wanted to capture someone alive, they didn't bother with this "turn down the power settings" nonsense. They just used the stun setting, which used a radically different visual effect from the conventional blaster bolts.
   Profile |  

Panzersharkcat
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 09:48pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2011-02-28 06:36am
Posts: 1673
Cesario wrote:
You're right. It is entirely possible that the Legion of the Emperor's best troops were equiped with inferior weapons to Vader's raiding party in ANH. That would be a great way to excuse the piss-poor performance of these supposedly highly trained elites.

I mean, when the people on Vader's raiding party wanted to capture someone alive, they didn't bother with this "turn down the power settings" nonsense. They just used the stun setting, which used a radically different visual effect from the conventional blaster bolts.

Canonically, they're the same group: the 501st Legion. Also, I seem to remember the shot that wounded Leia missing and hitting the panel behind her.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:12pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
Panzersharkcat wrote:
Cesario wrote:
You're right. It is entirely possible that the Legion of the Emperor's best troops were equiped with inferior weapons to Vader's raiding party in ANH. That would be a great way to excuse the piss-poor performance of these supposedly highly trained elites.

I mean, when the people on Vader's raiding party wanted to capture someone alive, they didn't bother with this "turn down the power settings" nonsense. They just used the stun setting, which used a radically different visual effect from the conventional blaster bolts.

Canonically, they're the same group: the 501st Legion. Also, I seem to remember the shot that wounded Leia missing and hitting the panel behind her.

4 minutes 30 seconds into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BVEvvCR ... er&list=UL

That looked like a hit to me. One that should have taken her arm clean off given how the blaster shots were behaving when striking non-human targets like walls, trees, and floors.
   Profile |  

Batman
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:19pm 

Emperor's Hand


Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13774
Location: Looking for another drawer
Cesario wrote:
S.L.Acker wrote:
It's also hard to say if a shield that stops a phaser will do anything against a blaster.

Replicate a human corpse to hold in front of you..

Which has what exactly to do with the resilience of the shield? Oh, and even if we assume you for some arcane reason have a replicator at your service that is big enough to create a human body (when in a firefight chances are you're not only a bit busy to use but also somewhat removed from such appliances) this is to be preferred about using a shield why again? Yes, humans can absorb blaster bolts. So can everything else. This means that human tissue (and/or clothing) is better at that than shield material because...?
   Profile |  

Panzersharkcat
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:30pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2011-02-28 06:36am
Posts: 1673
Cesario wrote:
That looked like a hit to me. One that should have taken her arm clean off given how the blaster shots were behaving when striking non-human targets like walls, trees, and floors.

I stand corrected then. Can't even say it was a glancing hit. I suppose it could be handwaved as her being future Jedi material or something in her instance. It'd be a very flimsy handwave, though.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:31pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
Batman wrote:
Cesario wrote:
S.L.Acker wrote:
It's also hard to say if a shield that stops a phaser will do anything against a blaster.

Replicate a human corpse to hold in front of you..

Which has what exactly to do with the resilience of the shield? Oh, and even if we assume you for some arcane reason have a replicator at your service that is big enough to create a human body (when in a firefight chances are you're not only a bit busy to use but also somewhat removed from such appliances) this is to be preferred about using a shield why again? Yes, humans can absorb blaster bolts. So can everything else. This means that human tissue (and/or clothing) is better at that than shield material because...?

Thing is, most everything else goes up like a roman candle when a blaster hits it. We fairly consistently compare blaster hits to grenades going off when they strike a wall, but for some odd reason human flesh is one of the things it has trouble with.

It's sort of the reverse of what we see with the Phaser, which has that nifty "make humanoid targets disapear in a pretty light show" effect, but which doesn't ever seem to have any noticable effect on anything except what was being aimed at, even when the beam misses the target and hits something else.
   Profile |  

Darth Tedious
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:33pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2011-01-16 09:48pm
Posts: 1070
Panzersharkcat wrote:
Canonically, they're the same group: the 501st Legion. Also, I seem to remember the shot that wounded Leia missing and hitting the panel behind her.
What source put the 501st at Endor?

Cesario wrote:
You're right. It is entirely possible that the Legion of the Emperor's best troops were equiped with inferior weapons to Vader's raiding party in ANH. That would be a great way to excuse the piss-poor performance of these supposedly highly trained elites.

I'm not saying it's possible that the guns were different. It is a fact.
The E-11 variants seen in RotJ are quite obviously different from their predecessors.

ANH:
Image

RotJ:
Image
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:37pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
Darth Tedious wrote:
Panzersharkcat wrote:
Canonically, they're the same group: the 501st Legion. Also, I seem to remember the shot that wounded Leia missing and hitting the panel behind her.
What source put the 501st at Endor?

Cesario wrote:
You're right. It is entirely possible that the Legion of the Emperor's best troops were equiped with inferior weapons to Vader's raiding party in ANH. That would be a great way to excuse the piss-poor performance of these supposedly highly trained elites.

I'm not saying it's possible that the guns were different. It is a fact.
The E-11 variants seen in RotJ are quite obviously different from their predecessors.

ANH:


RotJ:

Yep, that's different. Why'd they give the crappy ones to the guys guarding the Death Star?
   Profile |  

Batman
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:47pm 

Emperor's Hand


Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13774
Location: Looking for another drawer
Cesario wrote:
Thing is, most everything else goes up like a roman candle when a blaster hits it. We fairly consistently compare blaster hits to grenades going off when they strike a wall, but for some odd reason human flesh is one of the things it has trouble with.

You may fairly consistently do so, that doesn't make it true. Infantry blasters inevitably fail to leave behind the aftereffects of a grenade impact (the complete and utter absence of fragments is something of a giveaway). Instead, their hits look like...DEW hits. Yeah, that comes as a shock. In fact, I can't recall []anything[/i] ever going up like a roman candle when hit by a blaster. There's sparks aplenty, yeah, but the object the sparks came from is curiously enough still there after the hit. Sparkles from hit on wall-wall still there. Sparkles on hit from droid-droid still there. Heck, sparkles from hit on Luke's hand-hand still there.
What pray tell are all the instances of the targets of blaster fire mysteriously disappearing ?
   Profile |  

Darth Tedious
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:49pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2011-01-16 09:48pm
Posts: 1070
Cesario wrote:
Yep, that's different. Why'd they give the crappy ones to the guys guarding the Death Star?
Yeah, that's a fucking good question...

Out-of-universe: Inconsistancies in the props department.

In-universe: Ummm...
Given that the troops on Endor were assigned by Palpatine himself*, we can probably credibly credit his overconfidence.
Or take the fun option and say they were the Anti-Ewok model...


* I always read this as evidence that the troops on Endor were not the 501st, who were Vader's personal unit.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 10:54pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
Batman wrote:
Cesario wrote:
Thing is, most everything else goes up like a roman candle when a blaster hits it. We fairly consistently compare blaster hits to grenades going off when they strike a wall, but for some odd reason human flesh is one of the things it has trouble with.

You may fairly consistently do so, that doesn't make it true. Infantry blasters inevitably fail to leave behind the aftereffects of a grenade impact (the complete and utter absence of fragments is something of a giveaway). Instead, their hits look like...DEW hits. Yeah, that comes as a shock. In fact, I can't recall anything ever going up like a roman candle when hit by a blaster. There's sparks aplenty, yeah, but the object the sparks came from is curiously enough still there after the hit. Sparkles from hit on wall-wall still there. Sparkles on hit from droid-droid still there. Heck, sparkles from hit on Luke's hand-hand still there.
What pray tell are all the instances of the targets of blaster fire mysteriously disappearing ?

If there are no fragments, what's KOing the stormtroopers when the blaster bolts are missing them and blowing holes in walls behind them? Are they just so scared of the blaster bolt flying by their heads that they're fainting?
   Profile |  

S.L.Acker
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 11:11pm 

BANNED


Joined: 2011-12-22 03:47pm
Posts: 425
The shot that hit Leia is the only time we see a blaster bolt strike human flesh and is also the only case where we see a blaster not doing what we would expect it to do. We know that Leia is a powerful, if untrained force user, we also know that force users can ignore being next to lava for extended periods of time, or even outright deflect blaster shots as Vader did on Bespin. Thus I would say that the only explanation that doesn't rape SoD is that the force saved her ass.

Cesario wrote:
Batman wrote:
If there are no fragments, what's KOing the stormtroopers when the blaster bolts are missing them and blowing holes in walls behind them? Are they just so scared of the blaster bolt flying by their heads that they're fainting?


I know these scenes might be fresh in your mind, but would you care to post video clips or screen caps of this happening? I just don't get the feeling that you're unbiased in all of this.
   Profile |  

Batman
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 11:24pm 

Emperor's Hand


Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13774
Location: Looking for another drawer
Cesario wrote:
If there are no fragments, what's KOing the stormtroopers when the blaster bolts are missing them and blowing holes in walls behind them? Are they just so scared of the blaster bolt flying by their heads that they're fainting?

When, exactly, has that happened? Note that just because the blaster bolt itself doesn't produce fragments doesn't mean it hitting the target (or something that happens to be in its flight path if it misses won't.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 11:29pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
S.L.Acker wrote:
The shot that hit Leia is the only time we see a blaster bolt strike human flesh and is also the only case where we see a blaster not doing what we would expect it to do. We know that Leia is a powerful, if untrained force user, we also know that force users can ignore being next to lava for extended periods of time, or even outright deflect blaster shots as Vader did on Bespin. Thus I would say that the only explanation that doesn't rape SoD is that the force saved her ass.

Odd that it didn't seem to help against the stun setting back in ANH.
S.L.Acker wrote:
Cesario wrote:
If there are no fragments, what's KOing the stormtroopers when the blaster bolts are missing them and blowing holes in walls behind them? Are they just so scared of the blaster bolt flying by their heads that they're fainting?


I know these scenes might be fresh in your mind, but would you care to post video clips or screen caps of this happening? I just don't get the feeling that you're unbiased in all of this.

Actually, I was drawing off this page for the performance of Wars hand blasters against inorganic targets:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ns-SW.html

If you like, however, you can watch the Tantave boarding here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90TEcyqfDU
Batman wrote:
Cesario wrote:
If there are no fragments, what's KOing the stormtroopers when the blaster bolts are missing them and blowing holes in walls behind them? Are they just so scared of the blaster bolt flying by their heads that they're fainting?

When, exactly, has that happened? Note that just because the blaster bolt itself doesn't produce fragments doesn't mean it hitting the target (or something that happens to be in its flight path if it misses won't.

That's what I was talking about in the first place, Batman. I'm sorry if I was unclear.
   Profile |  

S.L.Acker
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 11:42pm 

BANNED


Joined: 2011-12-22 03:47pm
Posts: 425
Cesario wrote:
Odd that it didn't seem to help against the stun setting back in ANH.


Except that she wasn't in a life threatening situation from a stun blast and one could argue that any force effect that she's a part of would only happen if another force user initiates it or as a reflex to extreme danger. Sort of like real life cases of otherwise ordinary people doing extreme things, like mothers lifting cars off of their trapped children.

Cesario wrote:
Actually, I was drawing off this page for the performance of Wars hand blasters against inorganic targets:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ns-SW.html


Care to quote your own sections of the page, I'm not doing your reading for you.

Cesario wrote:
If you like, however, you can watch the Tantave boarding here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90TEcyqfDU


Are you too stupid to add in a time stamp when linking to a long section of video, or are you just a lazy mother fucker? Also, I don't see any cases of storm troopers or rebel soldiers falling from misses. You're going to have to highlight the individual cases because I'm not seeing them.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-27 11:54pm 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
S.L.Acker wrote:
Cesario wrote:
Odd that it didn't seem to help against the stun setting back in ANH.


Except that she wasn't in a life threatening situation from a stun blast and one could argue that any force effect that she's a part of would only happen if another force user initiates it or as a reflex to extreme danger. Sort of like real life cases of otherwise ordinary people doing extreme things, like mothers lifting cars off of their trapped children.

Not saying it's impossible, just that it seems odd.
S.L.Acker wrote:
Cesario wrote:
Actually, I was drawing off this page for the performance of Wars hand blasters against inorganic targets:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ns-SW.html


Care to quote your own sections of the page, I'm not doing your reading for you.

Was there any particular fascet you're interested in? I found this bit is probably closest to what I was talking about:
Quote:
The power of this gun is nearly as difficult to quantify as its range, but we've seen that it has much more knock-down power than a modern SMG or even a carbine. It can heat stormtrooper chest-plate armour to red-hot, it can blast grapefruit-sized chunks out of the Bespin walls and small pockmarks out of Death Star bulkheads, and it can even kill a man with the explosive shockwave from a near-miss.

S.L.Acker wrote:
Cesario wrote:
If you like, however, you can watch the Tantave boarding here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90TEcyqfDU


Are you too stupid to add in a time stamp when linking to a long section of video, or are you just a lazy mother fucker? Also, I don't see any cases of storm troopers or rebel soldiers falling from misses. You're going to have to highlight the individual cases because I'm not seeing them.

Oh no, I'm just lazy. And I really don't particularly care about this element. I'm perfectly happy with the alternate interpretation that blasters are just generally worthless if we're approaching this from a versus context. If we're not, I'm more interested in the odd mirrored paralell between phasers and blasters in their performance against people versus walls.
   Profile |  

Darth Tedious
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-28 12:25am 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2011-01-16 09:48pm
Posts: 1070
S.L.Acker wrote:
Are you too stupid to add in a time stamp when linking to a long section of video, or are you just a lazy mother fucker? Also, I don't see any cases of storm troopers or rebel soldiers falling from misses. You're going to have to highlight the individual cases because I'm not seeing them.
There aren't any examples there of Stormtroopers getting knocked down by debris, though at 3:51 and 3:57 there are a couple of possible cases of it happening to Rebels (I think they're a bit inconclusive, we don't see the shots themselves, just a burst of shrapnel from the wall while the troop is falling, which may have been the result of a different shot).

@Cesario: Why are you linking to a clip of the Tantive IV battle? This was the one you needed:


The page you're quoting from (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/Guns-SW.html) mentions it:
The bit you quoted wrote:
The power of this gun is nearly as difficult to quantify as its range, but we've seen that it has much more knock-down power than a modern SMG or even a carbine. It can heat stormtrooper chest-plate armour to red-hot, it can blast grapefruit-sized chunks out of the Bespin walls and small pockmarks out of Death Star bulkheads, and it can even kill a man with the explosive shockwave from a near-miss.

The very next sentence wrote:
This latter capability indicates high-velocity fragmentation from the explosive power of the impact, and it was demonstrated twice in ANH: once during the Death Star detention centre break-in, when an officer was killed by a hit to the wall behind him, and once during the "Tarzan scene", when Leia fired at a stormtrooper on the upper level, hit the wall directly behind his head, and killed him with the resulting shrapnel (it must have pierced the large flexible rubber section just beneath the back of his helmet).

However, this is likely incorrect. If we take a glance at that video, you can see the shot at 5:04. There is a large flash when it hits the wall, though it barely leaves a mark, and there in none of the usual charring and flames (i.e. the wall was not damaged, certainly not enough to throw debris).
You'll also notice that the Stomtrooper in question actually jumps up a little bit before he drops into a prone position, not something that would happen had he been struck from behind.
It is far more likely, given what we see on-screen, that the trooper was deliberately assuming a prone postion. This would provide him the advantages of presenting a smaller target and improved accuracy.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-28 12:34am 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
Darth Tedious wrote:
@Cesario: Why are you linking to a clip of the Tantive IV battle?

Because I'm an idiot who didn't re-read.
   Profile |  

Darth Tedious
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-28 12:51am 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2011-01-16 09:48pm
Posts: 1070
Friendly suggestion: Don't be lazy when it comes to researching. Solid research builds a solid arguement, and sometimes only a few seconds of your time can make all the difference.
   Profile |  

Cesario
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-28 12:53am 

Subhuman Pedophilia Advocate


Joined: 2011-10-08 11:34pm
Posts: 392
Darth Tedious wrote:
Friendly suggestion: Don't be lazy when it comes to researching. Solid research builds a solid arguement, and sometimes only a few seconds of your time can make all the difference.

Yeah, that's what I get for getting so wrapped up in the main point that I neglect the minutae.
   Profile |  

S.L.Acker
 Post subject: Re: ST v SW
PostPosted: 2011-12-28 02:13am 

BANNED


Joined: 2011-12-22 03:47pm
Posts: 425
Destructionator XIII wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:
However, this is likely incorrect.

It's from the main site. That really goes without saying.


I've noticed that you seem to have some sort of antiWong vendetta, at least when it comes to the debate. However you also say that you don't think scifi can be analyzed to any useful degree of accuracy. So is he wrong because all of the numbers out there are wrong, or because you strongly disagree with his methods.
   Profile |  

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Post a reply  Page 12 of 17
 [ 404 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 17  Next

It is currently 2014-12-22 08:06am (All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ])

Board index » Fiction » Science Fiction » Star Wars vs Star Trek

Who is online: Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group