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 Post subject: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-21 08:50pm 

So if these two universes meet between Clone Wars/ GE Civil war or so which timeline do you think that the ST universe is most going to get a long well in? If it is 24th century Star Trek and they meet Star Wars what would one think of one another? Will they ever get along? Which is the best time period for them to meet?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-21 10:55pm 

It really depends on whether or not the Krenim Imperium is still around due to Janeway's ramming of the Krenim device. The Krenim seemed rather expansionist, and they were only hampered by how big their empire is. They would even attack ships that didn't belong to their enemies, they just happened to be in their space. With the power differences between them and Republic or the CIS, things are quickly going to escalate into a slaughter of the Krenim.

Or were you talking about the Alpha Quadrant side of things?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-21 11:10pm 

It can be the whole part of the Galaxy. But how would the AQ and BQ powers react?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 12:00am 

It depends on how interested the Empire is in the Milky Way and what parts of it I suppose. The forces of the AQ are probably enough to to give themselves a bit of diplomatic leverage and defend their interests if the Empire decides to get a little pushy, but I really can't see why the Empire would be interested in much expansion. They're having enough trouble maintaining their own territory as I understand, and forcing half a galaxy under their power would probably push the limits of their control.

The Borg are another matter entirely. As soon as they catch wind of a new tech base traipsing around the galaxy, there will be blood and lots of it. In order to defend itself the Empire would have to eradicate the Borg entirely. Doable, but it would have to be done swiftly and decisively, so as to give the Borg little to no time to adapt or assimilate their technology. They aren't that far ahead of the Borg firepower-wise in that a war of attrition couldn't turn against them in a very bad way.

Interactions with the Dominion would swiftly turn to war....that the Dominion would swiftly lose when the Empire finds the real great link and blasts it into the great ash pile.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 08:01pm 

Because the Empire can find the secret homeworld of a race of shapeshifters with a quarter of a galaxy dedicated to preventing that outcome much more easily than they could a rebel base in their own fully controled territory.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 08:27pm 

Not sure if you ever watched the movies, but they found the Rebels again and again and again. Hell I don't think they were established on Hoth for more then a month before the Empire figured out where they were. What was so secret about the Founders homeworld to begin with? The only reason they didn't get it right the first time is because they had a fucking shapeshifter in their ranks giving them false info! Other then that their presence in the Gamma Quadrant was fairly minimal, and I don't think anybody really tried looking for it after the Dominion fleet came through.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 08:31pm 

Presupposes the Borg can do that in the first place.

Come again? Borg cubes are instakills for Wars Clone Wars Era MTLs.They fall to single digit numbers of Starfleet ships despite them having adapted to their weapons, and in turn Starfleet shields can withstand their weapons (if not for long). We're talking in excess of a 4 orders of magnitude firepower discrepancy here.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 09:12pm 

Why wouldn't they? Having millions of ships leaves a lot of room for trial and error, even if the Empire is somehow too advanced to adapt to in the beginning. They'd be better off squashing them with superweapons right off the bat, and then send smaller fleets to mop up whatever's left.



Sorry, but what? The Empire's firepower is closer to single or double digit GT by most sensible calcs. Federation weapons on the other hand are roughly 50-120 MT by most sensible calcs. A large discrepancy, make no mistake, but it's not enough that the Empire is somehow completely immune to the weapons utilized by the AQ, let alone whatever the Borg use (which, by the way is a good order of magnitude above what the Federation use, if not more).

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 09:41pm 

That's not the way it works. You claim they can, you provide the evidence. I'm not required to show the Borg are incapable of doing something we never see them do in the first place.

200GT per battery (possibly per barrel) for a Clone Wars Era troop transport. Nothing in higher canon contradicts that and that's several orders of magnitude less than you'd get by simply linearly downscaling from the DS1. That you don't like those numbers doesn't make them go away.

Um-no? TNG photorps are midrange triple figure KT to maybe low single figure MT and phasers are somewhere in the KT/second range.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 09:46pm 

Thanks to Vader's personal obsession with Luke Skywalker. Note their failure to find the rebel base to blow it up in ANH being a major plot point.

Do you think you can muster enough hate and obsession in Darth Vader over the founders to pull a repeat of Hoth?

The only reason they knew where to find the planet that was eventually bombed was because Odo had a genetically programmed map in his subconsious. This is a society that's built pretty much entirely on fear. Every aspect of their civilization is an elaborate shell designed to make harming the Founders that much harder.

Even by the main site's rather generous assessment, the Enterprise D can beat a Tie Fighter. A Tie Fighter is not something that Wars capital ships can safely ignore infinite numbers of. The Borg can hurt Wars ships. The only question is if the alien technology in those ships will be something the Borg will be able to reproduce with the raw materials avalible within their holdings. If they are, the Wars side is in quite a bit of trouble after the first decently educated Imperial Citizen is assimilated.

And that's assuming the Borg have zero capacity to analyze the technology directly with the trillions of minds in the collective.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:02pm 

Um-slight exaggeration there, don't you think? We know for a fact that in sufficient numbers Wars fighters (if not necessarily run of the mill TIEs) can kill at least small capital ships.

You don't get to presuppose that, you have to show they can. And given the firepower discrepancy between Wars and the Trek AQ powers which somehow still manage to hold their own against the occasional cube, I severely doubt that.

Presupposes they'll even live long enough to try.

Show me any example of them ever doing so. So far, everything they have assimilated was roughly on their technology level or below, and worked on a limited number of principles. They got their asses handed to them by Species 8472, they got killed in FC by Starfleet whose weapons we already know they can at least partially adapt to, burden of evidence to show that the Borg can adapt to Wars weapons is on you.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:03pm 

Prove that the Borg are capable of adapting to Empire tech?? Er....okay...care to point me to some canon interaction between them that I didn't hear about? That would be a start. Here's an even better idea, how about you prove that the Empire is significantly more advanced then anything that the Borg have ever faced?



There isn't really anything in higher canon that contradicts it, but then there's nothing in higher canon that supports it either. Sadly there isn't anything in lower canon that really supports ICS either, unless you make the same logical leaps that most of those high end figures are based on.



And who told you this exactly?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:09pm 

The fuck? When was the last time Starfleet ever 'held their own' against a Borg Cube? The only time they ever brought one down was through actual firepower was constantly pounding it over an unspecified period of time with anywhere between dozens to hundreds of ships while taking hideous casualties, and even then they were basically fucked until Picard told them when to shoot. How would any rational human being describe that as 'holding their own'?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:13pm 

Again, don't have to. You claim they did, you provide the evidence. Until and unless you show evidence they did...they didn't.

The term 'irrelevant' comes to mind. 'Not contradicted'='canon figure'. 200GT for MTLs on a Clone Wars era troop transport.

Because there's no mention of BDZs at all and the original Lando Calrissian trilogy totally doesn't mention anything about continent-destroying beams anywhere.

That'd be the TV series where all the TNG stuff (minus the TNG stuff happening in the movies) actually took place? You know, TNG? Where do you get your numbers from?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:23pm 

That'd be the fact that there's no evidence for there having been hundreds of ships (the dreaded 'evidence' thing again-I don't have to show there weren't, you have to show there were), the fact that by the time the Big E got there the Borg cube already was in serious trouble ('severe damage to its outer hull and the power grid is fluctuating' doesn't exactly sound like Starfleet didn't affect it prior to E-E's arrival) and again, the very fact that Starfleet could hurt the Cube at all speaks volumes given that a single Acclamator turbolaser blast is the equivalent of roughly 100,000 photon torpedoes.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:39pm 

Those two sentences went together for a reason.

Mopping up a quarter of a galaxy takes time even if you're completely unopposed. Why do you think the Outer Rim exists?

No. I'm presupposing that they CAN'T. "World's Greatest Detective"? Try to keep up.

Here's the thing. Wars Technology has a very important limiting factor. It's operating principles and manufacturing techniques can be understood by human brains. Even if there is absolutely no other angle of compatibility, the Borg can interface beautifully with human brains. Does the Empire know just how dangerous a schoolteacher in an unshielded transport vessel could be if the Borg get ahold of him? A random smuggler and his wookie friend who do all their own maitenence? If nothing else, the first Tie pilot the borg manage to grab lets the Borg know what they don't know, so they can focus their efforts on obtaining people with the right knowhow to get their resource base up to speed.

I couldn't build a computer with just the knowledge in my brain, but with just the knowledge in my brain, I could find out how. I understand the most basic operating principles, and I know where to find people who know more than I do.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 10:41pm 

They did what? Adapt to Imperial technology? No I guess they didn't. Do you even know what you're asking?



Those sorts of yields have never been once observed throughout pretty much anywhere else in canon (unless you can show otherwise), so that's pretty much all I need. Trekkies don't get away with that kind of cherry-picking nonsense, and rightfully so. Why should warsies have it any better?

But if it's contradictions you're after here's a few for thought: ICS gives 600 gigajoules for Slave 1's blaster cannons.

This is what 600 gigajoules looks like in an explosion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOJppJSKG9Y

And this is what Slave 1's cannons look like in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5jAwXmP ... page#t=39s

TA DA!



Nothing about a BDZ requires that a single ship must be putting out hundreds of teratons per shot to accomplish it's goals. And quotes?



Actually I'd very much love to see these TNG calcs first, because there aren't many events that I'd think qualify as kilotons to be honest. Fuck, apparently even Pegasus gives us low megatons.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 11:18pm 

I said that there may have been hundreds (the largest observed fleets the Federation has fielded) to dozens (about what what we saw in FC). Of course, it was likely something in-between as the highest figure comes from a preprepared fleet sent to fight a threat they had known about for some time, which is unlikely for obvious reasons, and the lowest comes from whatever we saw hanging around in FC, which is also unlikely considering the rate Federation ships were being blown away.



This is the part where I ask for the dreaded 'evidence' thing again as it were....

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 11:20pm 

Why would Boba risk that large of an explosion when Jango, or Hell, the ship he's in is nearby?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-25 11:26pm 

Yes, I do. I don't think you know what you're claiming. Once more, I. Do. Not. Have. To. Show. They. CAN'T. Adapt to Imperial technology. [i]You have to show they can.

Alderaan. Continent-destroying beams for the Centrality Navy. Simple downscaling from Alderaan.

That'd be the part where all the Star Wars numbers are canon, you know.

Because a sea level in atmosphere omnidirectional explosion will naturally look exactly like a DEW impact in a vacuum.


At which point did I mention hundreds of TT per shot, pray tell?

Actually Pegasus is what gives us midrange triple figure KT. And given you think in-atmosphere explosions are a viable standard to judge deep-space photon torpedo detonations by I'm not sure I give a damn about what you think a photorp detonation of a given yield would look like.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-26 12:19am 

The Borg are roughly within the ballpark of imperial firepower, so therefore adapting wouldn't be as much of an issue. Realize though that when I say 'adapt' I don't mean 'become immune' though. However should they begin to assimilate imperial technology then it becomes another story altogether.



By 'continent destroying beams I trust you mean the SSD mounted superlaser? And the Dodonna Calcs have always been in question since it was revealed that the superlaser is hyperspace technobabble and operates on different principles then turbolasers.



A sea level in-atmosphere explosion will look bigger then an impact of the same weapon in space yes. What are you trying to say?



Well you clearly support ICS yields, so I assumed that you did. My mistake.



Er....what? Did you even click the link I put up? Y'know, the one that showed the blaster cannons being used in-atmosphere???

Found those calcs you asked for earlier btw:http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=124136

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-26 12:43am 

You repeatedly claiming so doesn't make it true. The Borg have GT and up level firepower as per what?

Which is why they totally weren't losing in FC against Starfleet ships using weapons in the KT to maybe low end MT range. Weapons they already knew how to adapt to, at least partially.

Again, as usual presupposes they can do so to begin with.

No, by 'continent destroying beams' I mean 'continent destroying beams' that were explicitly called that. And that wasn't even the actual Imperial Navy.

What Dodonna calcs? To my knowledge the guy never presented any numbers on DS1 firepower whatsoever and the superlaser being hyperspace technobabble is at best lowest canon speculation. Source? Until and unless you present evidence for Alderaan not having been a DET event, it remains a DET event.

That'd be the part where you get an actual fireball on in-atmosphere explosions when space ones get you little other than gamma radiation so visuals of in-atmosphere explosions are essentially useless for determining the yield of weapons used in space?

Where do the ICS' claim TT per shot?

And you know that was their full power because of... Not that I understand what the (to anybody sane deliberately dialed down) firepower of a fgightercraft with delusions of grandeur has got to do with turbolasers.

Spacebattles. I rest my case.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-11-30 04:53am 

Bats, not that I disagree with your point that the borg would be slaughtered, but can you really dismiss a calculation just because of where it comes from? I know SB.com had issues with bullshit calcs a long time ago, and few of their recent vs. debates indicate much improvment, but you should really try to find some fault with the calcs themselves rather than attacking the source.

Unless this "vivftp" person has proven himself to be an idiot in the past. I don't really know much about him.

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-12-05 07:21pm 

No it's not, it's an inverse Appeal to Authority fallacy. An Ad Hominem would require for either the calculations to be his or me to be talking to Spacebattles.
Nevertheless it is indeed a fallacy, and I apologize to both the atom and SB (especially as I very much suspect I was actually thinking SFJ when I wrote that).

And where did vivftp come into this? That comment was made in a reply to the atom?

 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic relations between trek and Wars?

Posted: 2011-12-05 09:25pm 

Back to the OP, I think the Wars galaxy (did they ever bother to name it? beyond gffa, I mean) would benefit imensely in any point in the timeline that Palpetine isn't in charge.

Trek seems to do a better job of keeping their psionics from going on galaxy conquoring sprees every few decades. Something about the social framework Vulcan or Betazed have going on must be working. Maybe it's just the higher number of psionics in general. When you're one in ten trillion, it's a lot easier to get full of yourself than when you're one in three.