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Revan novel & Plagueis excerpt SPOILERS

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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 01:17pm 

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I managed to secure a {slightly, barely} early copy of Revan in the wee hours of the morning, and I'm just now putting it down for a breather. Overall, my impression of the book is that it's a decent read, especially as far as Star Wars is concerned. Karpyshyn is a moderately talented storyteller who is skilled with pacing and fight scenes. He remains firmly beneath the likes of Stover and Luceno, and I'd personally put him on par with the likes of Zahn, Denning, and Traviss in the low-mid-tier of Star Wars authors.

The Plagueis excerpt alone was worth the purchase and even in four pages one can see the wide gulf between Luceno and Karpyshyn as writers. Palpatine is chilling and it is implied that he
[Reveal] Spoiler:
can flow-walk
.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 06:05pm 

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Oh boy, you're in for it now. ;) You put Travis and Zahn on the same level.

I'll probably check out the Plagueis novel. I like Luceno's work, and more on Palpatine and his master will be interesting.
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 07:01pm 

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Oh boy, you're in for it now. ;) You put Travis and Zahn on the same level.


Controversial as hell, I know. :lol:
But the truth is that Zahn never really astounded me as a novelist. He had some great ideas, but rampant minimalism and authorial vanity kept me from enjoying his works completely. But I do recognize and respect him for his contributions to the EU.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I'll probably check out the Plagueis novel. I like Luceno's work, and more on Palpatine and his master will be interesting.


Yeah, Luceno does a great job with Sidious. The first four pages paint him as a very chilling figure.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 07:25pm 

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Zahn is strongest at characterization, suspense, and political intrigue I think. But he seems to be generally very well respected by the fans.

Not sure what you mean by "authorial vanity...".

I wouldn't say he's that minimalist, in any case. Maybe when he wrote The Thrawn Trilogy, but he also used 25,000 as the number of Imperial Star Destroyers, which isn't too bad when compared to Travis and her three million clones.

Going to be good to know more about Palpatine and the Sith. I remember the bits of Dark Lord where Luceno delved into Sith teachings and Palpatine's mindset. Very intriguing. I'd like some more of that.
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Darth Yan
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 07:48pm 

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there are some spoilers on amazon. The most I gathered was that plageius was a banker of some kind and that he focused more on financial matters and scientific research than palpy. The advance word is highly positive so it's on the list.
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TC Pilot
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 08:20pm 

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Joined: 2007-04-28 01:46am
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I saw excerpts from the Revan novel that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
the Exile from KOTOR 2 got seriously (and horribly) retconned and then gets killed off like a punk
. I'm annoyed because it doesn't seem to be anything more than a cheap tie-in to the upcoming MMORPG.

As for the Plagueis novel, I just wish it had stayed cancelled. The story basically has to revolve around the relationship with Palpatine, and I just don't think his backstory can really be fleshed out in any satisfactory way.
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Darth Yan
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 09:12pm 

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The retcon argument is horsecrap from a whiny fanboy.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
They don't claim nihilus's powers do not exist they do just not on Vitiate's level and my interpretaion was that the exile was tough because of her wound in the force.
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 09:39pm 

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The_Romulan_Republic wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "authorial vanity...".


I find his interpretation of Thrawn and his abilities to border on the ridiculous.

TC_Pilot wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
the Exile from KOTOR 2 got seriously (and horribly) retconned and then gets killed off like a punk


I'm not sure where the retcon stuff came from, but
[Reveal] Spoiler:
she does die fairly suddenly.


Darth_Yan wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
They don't claim nihilus's powers do not exist they do just not on Vitiate's level and my interpretaion was that the exile was tough because of her wound in the force.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
To clarify, though, Vitiate required the presence and skills of hundreds of other Sith to pull off his ritual. He didn't do it alone.
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Stofsk
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 09:58pm 

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I'm never going to read this novel so could somebody give me a summary as to what happens? In particular to the Exile since KotOR 2 rocked and KotOR 1 can go get fucked.
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 10:22pm 

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Stofsk wrote:
I'm never going to read this novel so could somebody give me a summary as to what happens? In particular to the Exile since KotOR 2 rocked and KotOR 1 can go get fucked.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
She enters the novel about halfway through and pursues Revan, visiting Nathema {the Sith Emperor's homeworld, which has been devoured Nihilus!style}, and then rescues Revan from Sith captivity, where he's been for the past three years or so. She, Revan, and a Sith Lord named Scourge team up to slay the Emperor, but Scourge has a vision that the Emperor will survive the battle and so to cover his ass betrays and kills the Exile by stabbing her in the back. The Emperor defeats Revan and holds him captive for the next three centuries, and the Exile's ghost remains in the physical world as a source of strength and energy to the constantly assailed Revan.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 10:26pm 

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[Reveal] Spoiler:
How the fuck did Revan survive for three centuries? As far as I know he's standard human, and humans have a more or less normal life span in Star Wars. Shouldn't he have died after the first hundred years or so? Was he being kept alive by some Sith power?
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 10:29pm 

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
How the fuck did Revan survive for three centuries? As far as I know he's standard human, and humans have a more or less normal life span in Star Wars. Shouldn't he have died after the first hundred years or so? Was he being kept alive by some Sith power?


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Yes, the Emperor is keeping him alive in order to probe him for information about the Republic and Jedi.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 10:57pm 

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G1d3on wrote:
The_Romulan_Republic wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "authorial vanity...".
I find his interpretation of Thrawn and his abilities to border on the ridiculous.
I personally always thought Thrawn's ability to perform tactical master-strokes by analyzing people's art is partly a mask for other, more conventional forms of research. Thrawn's the sort of person who would take misdirection to that high a level- deliberately misleading people about how he makes his decisions.
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:04pm 

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Simon_Jester wrote:
G1d3on wrote:
The_Romulan_Republic wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "authorial vanity...".
I find his interpretation of Thrawn and his abilities to border on the ridiculous.
I personally always thought Thrawn's ability to perform tactical master-strokes by analyzing people's art is partly a mask for other, more conventional forms of research. Thrawn's the sort of person who would take misdirection to that high a level- deliberately misleading people about how he makes his decisions.


What you're saying is a charismatic rationalization of what I believe to be an incredibly dumb plot device involving an otherwise great character. I'd vote for that retcon. :D
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Darth Yan
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:15pm 

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and "Vaner" shan (revan's son) is a politician. Weird.
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:20pm 

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Darth Yan wrote:
and "Vaner" shan (revan's son) is a politician. Weird.


That kid's name is testament to Karpyshyn's abilities as a writer. Behold and be amazed.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:26pm 

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G1d3on wrote:
What you're saying is a charismatic rationalization of what I believe to be an incredibly dumb plot device involving an otherwise great character. I'd vote for that retcon. :D
Frankly, since Thrawn seemed like a pretty damn good tactician without screwing around with artwork, I don't think that it's a critical plot device. He likes art, he studies his enemies closely and tries to defeat them. So far, so sensible.

Part of his study involves art, and he claims that doing this helps him to understand his enemies... so what? I don't let it worry me too much.
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Darth Yan
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:30pm 

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at least Vaner's spawn have more creative names (Bress and Ressa). For some reason I thought Revan would have a daughter.
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Mr Bean
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:33pm 

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G1d3on wrote:

What you're saying is a charismatic rationalization of what I believe to be an incredibly dumb plot device involving an otherwise great character. I'd vote for that retcon. :D

If you assume that literally all Thrawn is doing is spending time in an art gallery of his enemies then yes it sounds and looks like a dumb plot device. But if you read between the lines and don't take Thrawn as one hundred percent literally true it becomes clear that what Thrawn was doing was combing deep psychological profiles, SIGINT, ELINT and HUMINT and using art as a framing device for his decision making and explanation of his plans to subordinates. Art is his hobby and no one can bullshit better than a post modernist art critic on how a bunch of trashcan lids duck taped together under a raincoat describes mans struggle with humanity in a urban setting compared to his yearning for an agrarian back to roots spiritualism.

It's the difference between reading Heir to the Empire in 1993 when I was only 11 years old VS re-reading it when I was twenty three and being able to grasp the nuances that skipped right over my head at that age.
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TC Pilot
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:44pm 

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Darth Yan wrote:
The retcon argument is horsecrap from a whiny fanboy.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
They don't claim nihilus's powers do not exist they do just not on Vitiate's level and my interpretaion was that the exile was tough because of her wound in the force.


That sounds even worse. The danger of Nihilus' power was that his hunger threatened to destroy everything, so that either requires redefining the nature of the power, or it's just a case of silly one-upmanship.
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G1d3on
PostPosted: 2011-11-15 11:48pm 

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TC Pilot wrote:
Darth Yan wrote:
The retcon argument is horsecrap from a whiny fanboy.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
They don't claim nihilus's powers do not exist they do just not on Vitiate's level and my interpretaion was that the exile was tough because of her wound in the force.


That sounds even worse. The danger of Nihilus' power was that his hunger threatened to destroy everything, so that either requires redefining the nature of the power, or it's just a case of silly one-upmanship.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Again I must stress that Vitiate/Tenebrae {the Emperor} does not and cannot replicate the feat alone or instantly as of the events of the book.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2011-11-16 12:49am 

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Mr Bean wrote:
It's the difference between reading Heir to the Empire in 1993 when I was only 11 years old VS re-reading it when I was twenty three and being able to grasp the nuances that skipped right over my head at that age.
Notably, the fact that Zahn's work typically has such nuances, while still being basically comprehensible, is one of the things that makes people respect him. If you look at what he's saying and think about it, it makes more sense, not less. That's the mark of a good author.
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Darth Yan
PostPosted: 2011-11-22 12:50am 

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For a full recap

[Reveal] Spoiler:
I thorougly enjoyed it. Revan actually felt like a fallible mortal despite being a badass. Also, the way he stops the emperor is genuinely clever. The Emperor creates a bond
It's also made easier by the fact that the Emperor's single minded focused caused him to fail to realize that half his advisors were plotting against him until Scourge told him, and Revan's breaking his hold caused him to be shaken in the realization that his abilities to dominate minds weren't as strong. The strong reminder of his own fallibility forced him to focus on solidifying his hold at home and all the extent he put into dominating Revan opened the way for Revan to put his own influence.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Atris shows up and It's revealed that she and the Exile were actually practically best friends as children; hence why Meetra's actions hurt. She's also Bastila's age.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
There is also a scene where Meetra, the exile shows Revan a recording of his son and Bastila, and Revan actually breaks down crying (well he cries for a little bit) due to the fact that he will in all likilhood never now his son.
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Connor MacLeod
PostPosted: 2011-11-22 02:22am 

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People who like Zahn generally like him for his writing style and stories... the theme and the flavor. people who hate him hate him because they find he is too minimalist for their tastes (like 25,000 Star destroyers.) ya can't really compare the two though. :P
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2011-11-22 06:13pm 

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25,000 Star Destroyers really isn't that minimalist. Certainly not in the same league as 3 million clones, or even Zahns' early concept of 200 outdated cruisers being a major factor in the Galactic Civil War.
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