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IoM vs The Thing

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Connor MacLeod
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 03:25pm 

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Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14053
The question isn't a matter of whether or not the Thing can infiltrate. Genestealers and similar Xenos races (some of which IIRC aren't a whole lot different than The Thing - shapeshifter races aren't unusual at all.) I imagine they can infiltrate and take over worlds. The question is a matter of how far they can spread, and if they can spread in a way that allows them to take over the Imperium. That... is messy.

- First problem: transport from planet to planet. Space traffic isn't unheard of in 40K (merchant shipping, even some passenger shipping in the form of Pilgrimmages, etc.) exists. However, it is not nearly as prolific as some universes (like Star Wars) because private vessels are rare, and when they do exist they are often short ranged (EG they don't have a Navigator.) so at the very least its going to be slow going (best guess currently is that 1:10 people on a given planet may be an "off worlder" and this tends to assume a fairly high tech world.) The sheer random-ness of warp travel, especially over long distances, and the need for a navigator to do it with even a faint hope of speed means that progress will be an issue.

The controls over space traffic and interplanetary travel often include quarantine measures (plague outbreaks, especially of the Chaos variety, aren't unusual - anything Nurgle does or the super Psyker Teteurach from soul Drinkers are good examples.) which could complicate matters.

- second: The current iteration of the Imperium is a large, monolithic entity who is most responseive at the local levels (sector or lower) Beyond the sector level things start to go downhill as far as communication and migromanaging go. the Adeptus Terra relies on a shit load of broad policies and indirect measures (EG control of key resources like astropaths and Navigators) to ensure control. So taking Terra won't neccesarily guarantee a victory. the Thing could in theory consume two whole sectors and still ont be guaranteed victory. It will quite probably have to consume the whole Imperium to win, and this can range from a million worlds, to billions of worlds of varying types.. and trillions of humans to quintillions. When coupled with slow travel times this can mean alot of work.

- Third: how familiar something like this is to stuff the Imperium deals with/may have already dealt with. The Imperium's threats include both Chaotic/Daemonic (which can include sentient demon viruses) to shapeshifting or "infiltrating" aliens like genestealers (but not limited to genestealers either.) That is not to say that the Thing will be instantly recognized or purged. But rather, it is that the Imperium is already fairly xenophobic and its bias towards mutation (which is on a sliding scale) as well as alien/warp corruption and infestation repreesnt something of a barrier to the spread, because the sort of threat it represents is not new to the Imperium, even if the means/ability of the threat to spread is. Its quite probable (for example) they would mis-identify or mis-understand the threat (it's happened before) but still identifying it would tip off the Imperium to something happening, and that could complicate spread. Hell, the generla run of the mill catastrophes like that would be a hinderance, since it would mean heightend awareness for threats like that.

Fourth - knowledge. Considering that the Imperium tends not to have complete or perfect information of itself as a rule, its rather hard that the Thing would be able to get a complete knowledge of the Imperium either. Broad ideas, certainly (EG million worlds or thereabouts, but the exact number will not be precise). There's also the small problem of whether or not they understand/can distinguish between myth and hyperbole or even superstition. If they can't they might be mislead or even fooled without the Imperium meaning to (the Imperium is good at fooling itself, after all.)

the location that the Thing starts out at will matter as well. Ideally some major warp route nexus or trading world (a highly populus and major industrial world) is going to be better than a feral world or a agri world. Probably not a Forge world, given how unfriendly to the organic they tend to be. Hives are a maybe, unless some catastrophe happens (running out of food, for example, or a warp storm.) but even then I expect it to be slow going, and it will ultimtely come down to how fast they can spread vs how quickly they might be detected or eradicated. As long as they can stay above possible purges (which I expect will happen, but probably not in a coordinated manner very often) they should be okay.

It's even quite conceivable that the Imperium simply cannot totally, utterly root out the Thing, but at the same time the Thing fails to make any significant headway in conquering the Imperium. Especially if, in context, it was thrown into the 40K galaxy as a whole rather than just facing up against the Imperium alone.
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Simon_Jester
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 04:02pm 

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Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
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The Thing is supposed to be telepathic, at least in terms of its ability to impersonate people and extract memories to use for that.

I'm a little reluctant to buy its total immunity to Chaos, on that basis- or that it won't be detected if it starts moving around among psykers.
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Crateria
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 04:06pm 

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Joined: 2011-10-01 02:48pm
Posts: 269
Location: Sitting in front of a computer, bored
Simon_Jester wrote:
The Thing is supposed to be telepathic, at least in terms of its ability to impersonate people and extract memories to use for that.

I'm a little reluctant to buy its total immunity to Chaos, on that basis- or that it won't be detected if it starts moving around among psykers.


The rules I set out are to prevent the Thing(s) from falling under the sway of Chaos as so many invading armies from other works tend to likely be. For example, when the Galactic Empire invades the Imperium, a common statement is the Empire's forces will almost completely fall to Chaos.
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 04:06pm 

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Joined: 2010-03-25 03:25am
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Purple wrote:
Or are you seriously expecting a no limits situation where the Thing is newer detected until it infects something like 90% of the galaxy? Given the levels of investigation that go on in the Imperium for things like chaos I find that doubtful.


It would help if you detailed those levels of investigation and how frequently they're applied to Joe Average factory worker. Or to the rat population. You can't just go "Oh it can't win because that would be a no-limits fallacy because I said so."
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Purple
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 04:33pm 

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DudeGuyMan wrote:
Purple wrote:
Or are you seriously expecting a no limits situation where the Thing is newer detected until it infects something like 90% of the galaxy? Given the levels of investigation that go on in the Imperium for things like chaos I find that doubtful.


It would help if you detailed those levels of investigation and how frequently they're applied to Joe Average factory worker. Or to the rat population. You can't just go "Oh it can't win because that would be a no-limits fallacy because I said so."

They don't apply to the factory worker at all. That's my entire point. No one cares about the average factory worker or soldier as long as they do their job. And the same applies to planets as a whole or even sectors. Points for ignoring half of my post thou. Classy. Allow me to repeat it for you, since I am such a nice person.

My whole point was that the Thing will have to imitate the people and by relation worlds it infects or else someone will decide that planet X is not paying its tithes and it will be done for by virtue of some inquisitor or something actually taking notice that something is wrong. And that given the nature of the IOM it can't reasonably win as long as it does imitate these things becouse *shock* the IOM would not care if its an imitation or not as long as the tithes are paid. So either it pretends to be the real thing thus helping the IOM and achieving symbiosis or it tries to pull a fast one and ends up on some death list along the line of what planet needs to be made an example off next.

The line you quoted was simply a note of your own no limits wanking in the context that you actually believe that the Thing could somehow infect so much of the IOM to actually achieve the sort of sudden turning of the tables you described. Well I have news for you. Chaos has been trying that for something like 10k years and it does not even need physical contact to corrupt. You don't need to touch chaos, see chaos or even know about chaos to be corrupted. All it takes is being alive and sort of discontent and weak in belief. And yet, even with all these advantages it has failed to do the thing you claim the Thing could. The Thing that needs physical contact, can be killed by relatively mundane means and has failed to take over a bunch of scientists in the north pole.

Yea, I am not holding my breath here.
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Zixinus
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 05:36pm 

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Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
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Quote:
The only reason it got caught imitating the dogs was because a MacReady happened to be up after hours. It was smart enough to wait several hours until it could assume everyone was asleep. That's not "stupid", that's a mistake, and not even that big a deal since it still won in the end.


Sorry, but "turning yourself into an alien monster to eliminate a potential threat that you have effectively fooled" is still a stupid thing to do. If it were as smart as some people here suggest it is (or would be), why didn't it just wait further or gently infect the dog-handler? Why on earth did it turn itself into a monster to kill the dog?

And it didn't win in the end by tactics, it won by simple, raw virulence not by careful tactics.
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Lord of the Abyss
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 11:20pm 

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Purple wrote:
The thing is, if it just takes over and simulates the normal work of the planet the IOM really won't care. The High Lords or indeed the Imperium will see no difference if millions of ThingGuardsmen with their ThingLasguns are dying for it instead of ordinary people. On the other hand, the rules of the Imperium are quite clear. A planet can do what ever to hell it wants as long as it pays its tithes and worships the emperor. If a planet is conquered by the thing and than proceeds not to send out millions of ThingGuardsmen with their ThingLasguns to serve the imperium than the Imperium will come knocking.

Well, that's millions of potential infection vectors; naturally they'll send ThingGuardsmen. Especially if the Imperium is as indifferent as you say (which doesn't really sound like how I usually hear the Imperium described), since then it won't seriously try to stop them from infecting everything within reach.

Honestly; if the Imperium is like you describe I don't see how they've avoided already being taken over by something like Genestealers.
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 01:18am 

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Joined: 2010-03-25 03:25am
Posts: 587
Purple wrote:
They don't apply to the factory worker at all. That's my entire point.


But somehow the Thing won't be able to infect them rampantly even though according to you nobody is paying any fucking attention at all, because handwave, handwave, Chaos, handwave. Righto.

Quote:
No one cares about the average factory worker or soldier as long as they do their job. And the same applies to planets as a whole or even sectors. Points for ignoring half of my post thou. Classy. Allow me to repeat it for you, since I am such a nice person.


Your post was shit.

Quote:
My whole point was that the Thing will have to imitate the people and by relation worlds it infects or else someone will decide that planet X is not paying its tithes and it will be done for by virtue of some inquisitor or something actually taking notice that something is wrong. And that given the nature of the IOM it can't reasonably win as long as it does imitate these things becouse *shock* the IOM would not care if its an imitation or not as long as the tithes are paid.


Who gives a shit if the IoM "cares" about it's population being assimilated? What the fuck sort of defense is this? They'll pay their taxes right up until they've spread so far that the IoM can't get rid of them without basically killing itself.

Quote:
So either it pretends to be the real thing thus helping the IOM and achieving symbiosis or it tries to pull a fast one and ends up on some death list along the line of what planet needs to be made an example off next.


Except that according to YOU IN THIS SAME POST all the security measures that could stop a Thing "don't apply at all" to the bulk of the population. So the Thing being able to eventually gobble up 90% of them without provoking a giant campaign against it is a "no-limits fallacy" because... uh... why again?

Quote:
The line you quoted was simply a note of your own no limits wanking in the context that you actually believe that the Thing could somehow infect so much of the IOM to actually achieve the sort of sudden turning of the tables you described. Well I have news for you. Chaos has been trying that for something like 10k years and it does not even need physical contact to corrupt. You don't need to touch chaos, see chaos or even know about chaos to be corrupted. All it takes is being alive and sort of discontent and weak in belief.


Hahaha, who gives a fuck about some completely different threat with different goals that operates on completely different mechanisms? I'm supposed to be the one wanking?

Quote:
And yet, even with all these advantages it has failed to do the thing you claim the Thing could. The Thing that needs physical contact, can be killed by relatively mundane means and has failed to take over a bunch of scientists in the north pole.

Yea, I am not holding my breath here.


I just asked you how they'd stop the Thing and you basically said "They won't!"

Concession accepted. Well at least in regards to you. I suspect some other 40k supporter is going to look at your post, facepalm, and make a better and more challenging one.
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 01:35am 

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Joined: 2010-03-25 03:25am
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Oh I'd also like to point out for all the dumbshits who will look at that Arctic camp from the movie and go "LOOL LOW TECH LEVEL" that it was just about the worst possible environment for a Thing to be dropped into. A harsh, lifeless environment fatal to most forms of life with prolonged exposure, extraordinary distance from civilization or widespread animal life, a total lack of incoming or outgoing traffic to hitch a ride on, a distinct shortage of privacy, and a small human population with ridiculously high per-capita levels of scientific training and weaponry compared to the general population.

Put it on some small asteroid colony that only gets visits once every six months, with lots of weaponry and scientists on hand who all know each other, and that's one thing. It's probably fucked. Drop it into the middle of a city where it can skulk off into a sewer and how are you EVER going to know you got them all, short of blowing up the planet?
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Thinktank
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 01:56am 

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Joined: 2011-09-11 02:10am
Posts: 41
Here are the major threat vectors for the the "Thing" to exploit against the 40K Milky Way galaxy:

>If the "Thing" gets access to the webway, yeah...

>The thing infects members of the Imperial Guard, they get sent all over the place.

>It gets access to the Nids and they do not off-handedly absorb/integrate the Thing's biology. Or worse they adopt it.

>The Orks get infected, the idea of this creature being able to exploit the orkoid "spores" method of reproduction is pretty dire.

The Thing pretty much operates a like an inteligent fungus. A fungus that is smart enough to have built antigravity capable machinery/vehicles from 1970/80s technology parts.

Much like in SW, if it goes for a "long game" strategy, it will be a very serious threat on a galactic scale.
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Connor MacLeod
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:07am 

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Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14053
Simon_Jester wrote:
The Thing is supposed to be telepathic, at least in terms of its ability to impersonate people and extract memories to use for that.

I'm a little reluctant to buy its total immunity to Chaos, on that basis- or that it won't be detected if it starts moving around among psykers.


Depends on how their telepathy works. I'm not inclined to assume just because they clal it psychic powers or telepathy its automatically baesd on the warp, because universes tend to treat psychic stuff differently. In any case, one does not have to be psychic to be corrupted by the warp - regular matter (stars, planets, swords, etc.) can be infused with daemons or corrupted/distroted/mutated by the warp, so there's plenty of potential ways in which the Thing could be messed over via warp power if it isn't careful.

The thing I'm having a hard time understanding is that this threat is somehow supposed to micromanage an Imperium that can't even micromanage itself? Is this telepathy the way in which it coordinates and controls itself? If so, how fast does it propogate or operate at? Is this Thing infestation able to create some Gravemind-esque psychic holonet thingy or something, or what?
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 04:26am 

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Joined: 2010-03-25 03:25am
Posts: 587
No, and I'm not at all sure that the psychic powers bit is even canon as far as the movie goes. What it can do is every last thing the original person copied could do. It can eat a guy you've known for years, impersonate him, and then live alongside you for as long as it wants without you having a clue. I'm not sure what you mean by micromanaging the Imperium.
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Metahive
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 07:00am 

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Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
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Connor McLeod wrote:
The thing I'm having a hard time understanding is that this threat is somehow supposed to micromanage an Imperium that can't even micromanage itself? Is this telepathy the way in which it coordinates and controls itself? If so, how fast does it propogate or operate at? Is this Thing infestation able to create some Gravemind-esque psychic holonet thingy or something, or what?

The Thing's desire is not to rule, it's to survive and consume. The movie implies that individual Things don't necessarily cooperate if that'd put their own survival at risk. That's why the Palmer-Thing draws attention to the Norris-Thing's detached head rather than aid its escape, since that increases his trustworthiness in the eyes of the human crew and therefore his chances of survival. It's also why the blood-test works, detached Thing-cells put their own survival over that of their erstwhile originator.

A completely assimilated Imperium might not even be all that different from an untouched one.
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Elheru Aran
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 08:04am 

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Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Honestly; if the Imperium is like you describe I don't see how they've avoided already being taken over by something like Genestealers.


Mostly it's the diligent attention of the Inquisition that help keep the genestealers taking over. There are a lot of shapeshifter species, but the general Imperial policy of eradicating alien races back around the Crusade helped send the message that they should keep their heads down; we don't hear very often about shapeshifters turning up, after all.

Really though, the thing about the Thing is that it can hide at a cellular level within a person; it only goes crazy spider-heads when it's exposed. If they're telepathic, then perhaps they'll know that the best way to survive is to just keep mum and do absolutely nothing to set off suspicion... as such, they don't necessarily have the same objectives as the genestealers and most infiltrating enemies of the Imperium. Those ultimately plan to overthrow the IoM; the Thing just wants to survive and propagate. As such, even if it knocks off a planetary governor, it's not likely to disturb the status quo.
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PeZook
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 10:49am 

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Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
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Location: Poland
Isn't gene-reading tech pretty common on advanced Imperial worlds? You had things like genelock doors and weapons in some of the novels, that could esily draw attention to the problem if a factory manager suddenly can't fire up his cogitator...

Also, I'm not sure if infecting Guard contingents is all that hot a strategy: they get shipped around on Navy vessels, and the trips take months, during which the thing-guardsmen will be under close scrutiny of comissars and techpriests, very likely involving frequent physicals, cybernetic implantations and the like.
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Oni Koneko Damien
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 11:32am 

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Joined: 2004-03-10 08:23pm
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Connor MacLeod wrote:
The thing I'm having a hard time understanding is that this threat is somehow supposed to micromanage an Imperium that can't even micromanage itself? Is this telepathy the way in which it coordinates and controls itself? If so, how fast does it propogate or operate at? Is this Thing infestation able to create some Gravemind-esque psychic holonet thingy or something, or what?


It doesn't have to micromanage the Imperium. All The Thing does is, near-perfectly, impersonate its host until it's either directly threatened or sees a really good opportunity to spread without being detected. So basically, as long as The Thing doesn't make too many stupid mistakes, as far as the Imperium is concerned nothing has really changed. Everyone still does their jobs and acts the same way, it's just a growing number of them are no longer human. Assuming The Thing is like most life and will instinctively take the easiest available route of proliferation, this state of affairs will continue until it sees vastly diminishing returns in the 'assimilate Joe-nobody' tactic.

It's whatever happens when this point is reached that is up for speculation. Will The Thing decide to now try and assimilate those who pose a greater threat to it through brute force? Will it just use the masses to try and isolate and starve them into impotence? Will it use the masses to try and crush them through a sudden, unified show of force? Or will it simply exist in an indefinite state of uneasy symbiosis, having taken all it could but not considering it worth the risk of taking on the elite of the Imperium?

That said, I don't really know all that much in depth about the 40k universe. If they are really as generally paranoid as claimed, they might stand a better chance than SW. It will come down to whether or not their telepaths and technology can truly detect a Thing that really doesn't want to be detected, and how fast they can enact suitable countermeasures on a galactic scale if and once they realize the true scope of the problem.
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Molyneux
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 12:12pm 

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Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
The thing I'm having a hard time understanding is that this threat is somehow supposed to micromanage an Imperium that can't even micromanage itself? Is this telepathy the way in which it coordinates and controls itself? If so, how fast does it propogate or operate at? Is this Thing infestation able to create some Gravemind-esque psychic holonet thingy or something, or what?


It doesn't have to micromanage the Imperium. All The Thing does is, near-perfectly, impersonate its host until it's either directly threatened or sees a really good opportunity to spread without being detected. So basically, as long as The Thing doesn't make too many stupid mistakes, as far as the Imperium is concerned nothing has really changed. Everyone still does their jobs and acts the same way, it's just a growing number of them are no longer human. Assuming The Thing is like most life and will instinctively take the easiest available route of proliferation, this state of affairs will continue until it sees vastly diminishing returns in the 'assimilate Joe-nobody' tactic.

It's whatever happens when this point is reached that is up for speculation. Will The Thing decide to now try and assimilate those who pose a greater threat to it through brute force? Will it just use the masses to try and isolate and starve them into impotence? Will it use the masses to try and crush them through a sudden, unified show of force? Or will it simply exist in an indefinite state of uneasy symbiosis, having taken all it could but not considering it worth the risk of taking on the elite of the Imperium?

That said, I don't really know all that much in depth about the 40k universe. If they are really as generally paranoid as claimed, they might stand a better chance than SW. It will come down to whether or not their telepaths and technology can truly detect a Thing that really doesn't want to be detected, and how fast they can enact suitable countermeasures on a galactic scale if and once they realize the true scope of the problem.


There also is the question of what the Things do when they're not trying to avoid detection. Do they keep on with the daily lives of those they've replaced? Do the hosts' minds even survive, after a fashion? Or do the Things ditch the masquerade and try to do something different? I don't know if we really saw enough to gauge their long-term motives.
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Metahive
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:00pm 

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Genestealers, chaos cults and the like are easier to detect because they tend to "clot", ie form large, co-operating groups to fulfill whatever purpose they have in mind. There's strength in numbers but at the same time bigger groups all out for a unified goal make more "noise" than a single individual just trying to not stand out.

The paranoia of the IoM might even work in the Thing's favor since it means that Thing-related incidents might get blamed on Tyranids or Chaos first before anyone thinks of looking closer into the matter and discovers the unique properties of the Thing, giving it more time to spread and hide.
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Purple
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:16pm 

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What is wrong with you? Why are you time and time again ignoring what I am saying?

DudeGuyMan wrote:
But somehow the Thing won't be able to infect them rampantly even though according to you nobody is paying any fucking attention at all, because handwave, handwave, Chaos, handwave. Righto.

Again, you are not fucking looking at the right fucking level.

Quote:
Your post was shit.

No, your lack of basic comprehension of the written word is shit.

Quote:
Who gives a shit if the IoM "cares" about it's population being assimilated? What the fuck sort of defense is this?

When talking about an organization and using the verb care it is customary to understand that it does not refer to emotional care but to the change in output for said organization. In other words the phrase "Organization X cares for Y" translates to "The conditions of Organization X change if Y changes."

Quote:
They'll pay their taxes right up until they've spread so far that the IoM can't get rid of them without basically killing itself.

And you expect them to do that how? Especially when agents with far greater abilities including but not limited to being physical gods have failed to do so for tens of thousands of years.

I call you on this. Prove it or shut up.

Quote:
Except that according to YOU IN THIS SAME POST all the security measures that could stop a Thing "don't apply at all" to the bulk of the population. So the Thing being able to eventually gobble up 90% of them without provoking a giant campaign against it is a "no-limits fallacy" because... uh... why again?

They don't apply on the personal level. But again they don't need to apply on that level.
But here again you are claiming that the Thing can somehow posses 90% of all the planets in the IOM without being detected. An act that many more powerful and capable factions have failed at so far. Hence again. PROVE THAT THEY CAN.

Quote:
Hahaha, who gives a fuck about some completely different threat with different goals that operates on completely different mechanisms? I'm supposed to be the one wanking?

If that different threat has superior capabilities and the same objective than yes you should care.
Its simple comparative analysis. If a bullet with 100MJ of force can't penetrate a steel plate than something with 10MJ of force certainly won't. The same thing applies here.

Chaos is in all ways superior to the thing. It can infect people without exposing it self to risk. It is far more virulent and powerful. It has access to physical magic. It even has the ability to spawn sentient Thing like plagues. And yet it has failed time and time again to do the thing you say the Thing would be able to do. If subverting the entire population of the IOM was that easy surely you think Chaos would have managed it in the 10K years it's been trying.

My argument: Chaos > Thing; Hence: Chaos can't do it => Thing can't do it either.
How is that not logical?

Quote:
I just asked you how they'd stop the Thing and you basically said "They won't!"

Concession accepted. Well at least in regards to you. I suspect some other 40k supporter is going to look at your post, facepalm, and make a better and more challenging one.

Go die in a hole.
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Connor MacLeod
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:36pm 

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Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14053
Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
It doesn't have to micromanage the Imperium. All The Thing does is, near-perfectly, impersonate its host until it's either directly threatened or sees a really good opportunity to spread without being detected. So basically, as long as The Thing doesn't make too many stupid mistakes, as far as the Imperium is concerned nothing has really changed. Everyone still does their jobs and acts the same way, it's just a growing number of them are no longer human. Assuming The Thing is like most life and will instinctively take the easiest available route of proliferation, this state of affairs will continue until it sees vastly diminishing returns in the 'assimilate Joe-nobody' tactic.

It's whatever happens when this point is reached that is up for speculation. Will The Thing decide to now try and assimilate those who pose a greater threat to it through brute force? Will it just use the masses to try and isolate and starve them into impotence? Will it use the masses to try and crush them through a sudden, unified show of force? Or will it simply exist in an indefinite state of uneasy symbiosis, having taken all it could but not considering it worth the risk of taking on the elite of the Imperium?

That said, I don't really know all that much in depth about the 40k universe. If they are really as generally paranoid as claimed, they might stand a better chance than SW. It will come down to whether or not their telepaths and technology can truly detect a Thing that really doesn't want to be detected, and how fast they can enact suitable countermeasures on a galactic scale if and once they realize the true scope of the problem.


I don't know either. Part of the problem is I dont know enough about how the Thing works or what it is nature wise. It's quite possible (probable, given the way 40K tends to copycat other sci-fi and absorb it into himself) that something like the Thing exists in 40K already. But even if not, I can see alot of obstacles to overcome compared to invading Star Wars.

For one thing, your average person in 40K, while not exactly stupid, is rather ignorant of things beyond their personal space. Stuff that happens beyond the planet (or even the sector/subsector) will be very rare on planets, and tend to be the very high up people. That also includes space travel. And even then that knowledge will probably be limited (its unlikely that an average person in a system will know about other planets in a sector, much, less one sector over or across the galaxy.) Getting that sort of data for any real long term planning won't be easy. And even if they "take over" one planet, they'll probably have to start all that over again because there's no guarantee the last planet will be anything like the former. And tactics they used on the last planet may not work on the next one (EG infiltrating a forge world or hive world when the last world was a shrine world or agri world.)

On top of that there are lots of other obstacles in the form of what they will have to do to remain hidden. Not piss off the AdMech by using technology wrong or showing wrong understanding ot technology. Not pissing off the Ecclesiarchy by acting like a Heretic. Not pissing off the Inquisition by staying hidden. And so on. There's a chance they cna do it (Genestealers and 'Nids and chaos cults do) but that only leads to another problem - all the other myriad chaos and alien infiltrators will be competing with the Thing, and if the Thing infiltrates one of them, or comes into conflict with them, it could alert the Imperium or get an infestation wiped out purely by accident. Same thing for rampant mutation, rebellion (and it doesn't have to be the Thing that starts it.) or whatever.

Psychic means of detection will vary. We dont know enough about it telepathically or psychically to say so. If there is any similarity between their powers (if they have them) and the Warp, then any Thing wil probably get treated like a psyker which means they get captured or killed. What happens when they reach terra would be... interesting. Warning via divination, God Emperor, or whatever might be possible but that's in the same ballpark as Force precog - the humans involved may or may not understand or get the warning (I'm sure the GEoM would recognize it, esp if the Thing starts infiltrating astropaths, but telling the humans t large is more difficult when you're a corpse on a throne.)

I don't think 40K has any real "guranteed" ways to kill it or wipe it out - any more than they've managed ot purge Orks or Tyranids from a planet. But I simply don't see what guarantees the Thing is going to have an insta-win here either, rather than just becoming yet another part of 40K that endures and survives but never wins anything decisively. Their ability to reproduce and survive detection is a good skill for survival, but there are too many factors to against them to guarantee they can simply spread unopposed. Plus alot of this depends on far too many unknowns (What sorts of information they'll have access too, whether or not they avoid random bad luck, warp anomalies, chaos/xenos invasions, religious or Inquisitorial fanatics, etc.) that we simply can't answer on.

Last edited by Connor MacLeod on 2011-10-28 02:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Molyneux
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:37pm 

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Joined: 2005-03-04 09:47am
Posts: 7186
Location: Long Island
Purple wrote:
Quote:
They'll pay their taxes right up until they've spread so far that the IoM can't get rid of them without basically killing itself.

And you expect them to do that how? Especially when agents with far greater abilities including but not limited to being physical gods have failed to do so for tens of thousands of years.

I call you on this. Prove it or shut up.


Wait. Physical gods have tried and failed, for tens of thousands of years, to...pay their taxes? That doesn't sound right.

Quote:
Chaos is in all ways superior to the thing. It can infect people without exposing it self to risk. It is far more virulent and powerful. It has access to physical magic. It even has the ability to spawn sentient Thing like plagues. And yet it has failed time and time again to do the thing you say the Thing would be able to do. If subverting the entire population of the IOM was that easy surely you think Chaos would have managed it in the 10K years it's been trying.

My argument: Chaos > Thing; Hence: Chaos can't do it => Thing can't do it either.
How is that not logical?


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't Chaos mostly incubate until they've got a nice-sized cult, then just go crazy and start with the plagues/war/seducing/whatever? They don't seem all that good at staying incognito, really. Unlike the Thing, whose whole strategy revolves around being as normal-looking as possible.
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Connor MacLeod
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:41pm 

Sith Apprentice


Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Posts: 14053
Chaos depends ultimately on the kind of cult and the kind of world. The main problem with Thing = Chaos is that Chaos is, at its most basic nature, insane. It doesn't care about the survival of its minions (it can always get more) or about winning by taking territory or conquering planets or anything like that. What Chaos cares about is emotions, especially the negative ones. Pain, suffering, fear, etc. And death. Consuming souls. Things like that. The souls of its own or the souls of innocents work equally well.
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Metahive
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 02:59pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
Posts: 2393
Location: Little Korea in Big Germany
Connor McLeod wrote:
I don't think 40K has any real "guranteed" ways to kill it or wipe it out - any more than they've managed ot purge Orks or Tyranids from a planet. But I simply don't see what guarantees the Thing is going to have an insta-win here either, rather than just becoming yet another part of 40K that endures and survives but never wins anything decisively.

I'd argue that since survival is the Thing's highest goal, resisting all attempts to eradicate it completely already constitutes a win for the Thing. In nature it's more comparable to the common cold than either Chaos or 'nids.
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PeZook
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 04:52pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Posts: 13236
Location: Poland
Metahive wrote:
I'd argue that since survival is the Thing's highest goal, resisting all attempts to eradicate it completely already constitutes a win for the Thing. In nature it's more comparable to the common cold than either Chaos or 'nids.


How can you possibly know that's its highest goal?
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-28 05:22pm 

Jedi Knight


Joined: 2010-03-25 03:25am
Posts: 587
Purple wrote:
What is wrong with you? Why are you time and time again ignoring what I am saying?


Because you're a sniveling incompetent cunt who thinks "but they defeated their other enemies" and "Chaos>Thing" comprise compelling arguments when really they're little more than worthless irrelevant spam.

DudeGuyMan wrote:
When talking about an organization and using the verb care it is customary to understand that it does not refer to emotional care but to the change in output for said organization. In other words the phrase "Organization X cares for Y" translates to "The conditions of Organization X change if Y changes."


No shit moron, it still doesn't make your utterly bullshit line about how they won't "care" if their populace is assimilated any less of a fucking waste of electrons.

Quote:
And you expect them to do that how? Especially when agents with far greater abilities including but not limited to being physical gods have failed to do so for tens of thousands of years.


Man on what fucking planet is this considered a valid argument? Connor, Pezook, and some others have raised interesting points that make this a much more difficult situation for the Thing, but you? All you've done is go "They don't!" when asked how IoM security measures apply to this scenario, act like "Well... uh... I guess they won't catch them then?" is some sort of crazy response to that, and post stupid shit like the above.

Pezook's "genereading is fairly common technology" post was a cogent argument. Aha, a specific means of detecting a Thing that is reasonably widespread. That could change things. By comparison, your "but they beat their other enemies" shit is fucking garbage. You are failing badly at grasping the basic tenets of this sort of debate if you think blabbering that sort of shit is going to get you anywhere.
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