Captain America SPOILERS!

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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby LadyTevar » 2011-07-31 09:31pm

Havok wrote:
neoolong wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:another old Hero the Red Tornado who was also a robot/android.


Red Tornado is DC by the way.

HA HA!!! FUCKING NOOB!! :lol:


:P
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I am however right that The Vision is based upon that Android. (via insane comic hijinks)
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Havok » 2011-07-31 10:34pm

Yes, but a damn charming and sexy jackass. :D

The hijinks really aren't that insane from the in universe perspective... at least at first.
Now they are beyond insane and just downright ridiculous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Torch_%28android%29

I mean, insane indicates at least the acknowledgement of sanity. :lol:

But technically, now, you are only partially correct as the Vision IS that android.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Lonestar » 2011-08-01 12:38am

Mayabird wrote:
Those scenes where they're in the camp in Europe, and there are incidental background sounds from the woods around, I clearly heard a chickadee call. Chickadees do not live in Europe. Their cousins the tits do, but they sound different.

Yes, I am THAT big of a nitpicker. :P


The movie was filmed in London. So:

(1)You misidentified the call

(2)Some Chickadees do live in Europe

(3)It was some sound added later.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Ahriman238 » 2011-08-01 12:53am

We all saw the grenade trick in the trailer, but its the scene afterward, where Dr Erskine is having a drink with Rogers the night before that I felt was the important one. The history of Red Skull sets up how the serum ramps everything, body and mind and soul. I do not think the serum would ever have been usable mass-production, even if Erskine lived, just because of that effect on the mind.


Maybe it's because reading the comics have made me cynical, but all I heard there is a scientist giving in to superstition. The serum's never really shown pyschological effects (besides the one-off guy. Protocide?) I hated that they kept the line about only a weak man knowing the value of stength, because that makes it sound like Steve was chosen for his physical frailty, rather than his good nature.
I liked this tweak to the Cap story, it explained how the Skull is a threat to Cap without having the tedious process of him collecting Steve's blood and reverse-engineering the serum from it. It gave Steve and Erskine some bonding-time, gave Erskine some sympathy and screen-time before the axe fell. Finally, it gave Erskine a damn good reason for picking a candidate purely on the basis of character, he's already seen what happens when other people use it.
I just wish he could have left it at saying that Steve has courage and compassion.

The other is the 'save the little boy' subversion, where the kid looks up and say "don't worry! I can swim!" Most other hero-films would have the kid needing rescued, so again, nice touch.


I was thinking it. I saw him about to leap, and subverted. Nicely done, indeed.

The US Bonds tour. *sigh* Well, it was a great tribute to the big 1940s musical era, and the war movies were as gung-ho as anything else produced at the time. While painfully cheesy, you had to admire the choreography. And the girls in short skirts. (Did anyone notice in the end credits one of the fighter planes had nose-art of one of the dancers?) Still, Rogers was right to think of himself as a performing monkey.
The comic books we see the kids and soldiers reading I didn't get a good glimpse of, but I'd not be surprised if they copied actual 1940s Captain America covers.


I loved it, corny period goodness. You are correct about the covers, by the way.

Bucky and the Howling Commandos were fantastic. Yes, there was a Japanese-American added ("I'm from Fresno"), but he wasn't there as a token, he was just as good a soldier as the rest of them. Even the "token Black Dude" wasn't just for show, he spoke and read German and French. The massive montage of Cap & the Howling Commandos taking out Hydra ops was simply beautiful. The teamwork was spot-on, and it was clear the Commandos were just as determined as their Captain. The various ways to kill a tank made me grin (even if one tank was a Fuckin' Bolo!!!).


I think in the comics it was more: anyone having objections to the team's ethnicity is welcome to direct their concerns to Sgt. Fury. He is a warm and caring individual who finds you important and will absolutely have no problem with you wasting his time with pointless objections about his men that have nothing to do with their combat prowess.

However... Bucky. He wasn't just off being tortured; Zola was experimenting on him. Red Skull makes a off-hand comment to Zola that leads me to think Zola was also trying to remake the SuperSerum, just as the US was trying with Cap's blood. Bucky was improving very quickly as they ran out of the building. Almost like he was healing.


From the snatches of conversation about 'infusions' and how it seemed to relate to the greater plan of manufacturing more batteries and bombs, I thought they were installing/injecting the Cube-batteries into the prisoners. Either for ease of use of Cube-powered gear, in the hopes of making their own super-powered army, or just to see what would happen.

The prop-bombs are the scariest. It was clear they were suicide missions for the pilots, thus the toast given to them by Red Skull before Cap's arrival. It was a self-propelled, user-guided WMD.


That's what I said!

As the Skull said so himself to Hitler's men: You call it Magic, I call it Science. Paraphrasing Thor, who said much the same thing in his own movie. That "Odin's Gem" was hidden in Norway, in an ancient cathedral carved with Norse Mythology, inside the image of Jormandr.... makes one think, doesn't it?


More interesting if you read the comics lore on Cubes, which started out as "grey holes" and eventually became sentient beings who are also self-contained universes (in the style of the Beyonder.)

SideNote:
The DoubleDate at Stark's World Expo was great. The artificial man on display may be a lead-in to The Vision, or could be another old Hero the Red Tornado who was also a robot/android.
While it wasn't the IronMan entrance, Stark Sr. also knew how to play the crowds. The anti-grav car was sweet while it lasted ("I did say a few years..."). I would like to see Cap ask Tony "Where's the flying Car?" in the Avengers movie. After all, the Avengers do have several in the comics, to carry those who can't fly.


The original Human Torch who escaped during an expo and ran around downtown Manhattan on fire the whole time? One imagines there was a quite an off-screen story there. A number of the Vision's parts were recycled from the Old Torch. Where are else are you going to find parts for an android?
I'm a little disturbed that the movies are tying together the Marvel universe better than the comics are these days.
Still really looking forward to Steve's reactions to meeting Tony Stark. It would be even funnier if Cap got to explain what fondue is to the younger Stark, but he's probably twenty years or so too late for that.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby mr friendly guy » 2011-08-01 01:47am

I am going to have to watch this aren't I? Cap isn't exactly my favourite Marvel character, but the praise thats coming from the board makes me think I should watch it while I have a few days off. The question is, does 3D enhance it that much or should I just stick to good old 2D?
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby neoolong » 2011-08-01 02:20am

It's not incredible, but it's pretty good for post-converted 3D. There's some minor enhancement, if that's worth the surcharge to you. If you don't care that much about 3D, just see the 2D version.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Flagg » 2011-08-01 02:32am

The only movie I saw in 3D that was worth it was Avatar. The rest have all sucked, especially the 3D in TF3.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Simon_Jester » 2011-08-01 02:53am

Ahriman238 wrote:
We all saw the grenade trick in the trailer, but its the scene afterward, where Dr Erskine is having a drink with Rogers the night before that I felt was the important one. The history of Red Skull sets up how the serum ramps everything, body and mind and soul. I do not think the serum would ever have been usable mass-production, even if Erskine lived, just because of that effect on the mind.
Maybe it's because reading the comics have made me cynical, but all I heard there is a scientist giving in to superstition. The serum's never really shown pyschological effects (besides the one-off guy. Protocide?) I hated that they kept the line about only a weak man knowing the value of stength, because that makes it sound like Steve was chosen for his physical frailty, rather than his good nature.
I liked this tweak to the Cap story, it explained how the Skull is a threat to Cap without having the tedious process of him collecting Steve's blood and reverse-engineering the serum from it. It gave Steve and Erskine some bonding-time, gave Erskine some sympathy and screen-time before the axe fell. Finally, it gave Erskine a damn good reason for picking a candidate purely on the basis of character, he's already seen what happens when other people use it.
I just wish he could have left it at saying that Steve has courage and compassion.
There's an implication that he learned a lot of compassion from being the underdog for so long- this may be, in part, what makes him stand out so much from the big beefy guys who are recruited along with him. A lot of them are 'bullies,' to use the film's terminology, big tough guys who think with their fists. Cap thinks with his heart instead.

The original Human Torch who escaped during an expo and ran around downtown Manhattan on fire the whole time? One imagines there was a quite an off-screen story there. A number of the Vision's parts were recycled from the Old Torch. Where are else are you going to find parts for an android?
I'm a little disturbed that the movies are tying together the Marvel universe better than the comics are these days.
It's mostly a matter of compactness. Also that they can show some random bit of prop material for five seconds on-screen and count on a thousand fans with encyclopedic knowledge of their universe to fill in the blanks, whereas doing the same amount of tying-together in print would take pages.

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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Havok » 2011-08-01 04:41am

Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:The original Human Torch who escaped during an expo and ran around downtown Manhattan on fire the whole time? One imagines there was a quite an off-screen story there. A number of the Vision's parts were recycled from the Old Torch. Where are else are you going to find parts for an android?
I'm a little disturbed that the movies are tying together the Marvel universe better than the comics are these days.
It's mostly a matter of compactness. Also that they can show some random bit of prop material for five seconds on-screen and count on a thousand fans with encyclopedic knowledge of their universe to fill in the blanks, whereas doing the same amount of tying-together in print would take pages.

That and the movie verse has the knowledge of the past 70 years of Timely/Marvel comics to draw from and not to mention all the retcons that countless writers have done to try to make things tie together, and then the retcons of those by actual good writers, so that they, the movie folk, can now present a nice coherent story. One which no one can go back and monkey with.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby CaptainChewbacca » 2011-08-01 05:18am

The only thing they could've possibly done to this movie to make me geek out more is if they'd said the shield was made of WAKANDAN Vibranium. Besides that, there's nowhere to improve.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Ted C » 2011-08-01 10:37am

Mr Bean wrote:As noted there was no power loss when the cube was removed, and the plane was already in motion before the cube was installed both things that don't seem to jibe with the fact that the plane required the Cosmic cube itself to fly.


Which could be accounted for simply by the existence of some of the CC battery technology we already saw. Takeoff would be more power-intensive than cruising, and the batteries might not have been sufficient for a trans-Atlantic flight on their own. The mechanism still looks the same, and there's evidence that at least some of the engines are receiving power from the Cube.

Mr Bean wrote:And I'll toss out two more things I'm recalling, in the escaping scene there were other planes besides the one the Red Skull escaped on I recall, which makes little sense if each plane requires the Cube to power it.


No one said anything but the gigantic flying wing requires the CC.

Mr Bean wrote:Second, the Ratte tank Cap smashed in the destroying the bases montage were powered by Cube energy and moving that much armor and guns is a far sight harder then propelling the super ship. The power generation requirements are harder for moving something that size and arming it with a disintegration ray on a tank scale compared to just getting a flying wing in the air.


Moving a large tank around on the ground, even for a hundred miles, will take far less energy than getting that massive flying wing off the ground and across thousands of miles of ocean.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Simon_Jester » 2011-08-01 12:11pm

Ted C wrote:Moving a large tank around on the ground, even for a hundred miles, will take far less energy than getting that massive flying wing off the ground and across thousands of miles of ocean.
Don't bet on it.

Looking at the 200-ton Maus tank, the beast had a roughly 3000-liter fuel tank, and a range of, under good conditions, something like 160 kilometers on road, more like 60 off-road.

By the same standard, a huge bomber like the B-36 (max takeoff weight also around 200 tons) could carry around 30000 gallons of fuel (140 thousand liters)... but then take that fuel and fly about nine thousand miles- well over ten thosuand kilometers.

In terms of gas mileage, the B-36 wins over the Maus, even though the two weigh roughly the same... and I'm pretty sure the Hydra supertank was bigger than a Maus, and therefore even heavier. What it comes down to, really, is that an aircraft can afford to be half fuel by weight- or, in this case, half cosmic energy batteries by weight. A tank cannot, because so much of its mass is eaten up by heavy slabs of armor plate.

So I'd think it perfectly feasible for the flying wing bomber to be run off of batteries. The fact that it stayed in the air even without the Cube suggests that it had batteries capable of running it for a considerable distance, too. It may have been capable of being powered directly from the Cube, and that's totally reasonable, but not necessary. And I'd still say the best explanation is that the Red Skull wanted to be sure he could take the Cube with him- as noted, he was escaping his last remaining base in this plane, and the Cube is a truly irreplaceable asset left to his organization. The smart, and safe, thing to do is take it with him, whether he needs it to power the plane or not.

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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby dragon » 2011-08-01 02:52pm

once planes get going they tend to be fairly decent on fuel unless it's the SR-71. Man talk about a gas guzzler

Anyway question.
I know the red skull didn't die as he shows up later but where did he get sent?
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Ted C » 2011-08-01 04:14pm

Simon_Jester wrote:Looking at the 200-ton Maus tank, the beast had a roughly 3000-liter fuel tank, and a range of, under good conditions, something like 160 kilometers on road, more like 60 off-road.

By the same standard, a huge bomber like the B-36 (max takeoff weight also around 200 tons) could carry around 30000 gallons of fuel (140 thousand liters)... but then take that fuel and fly about nine thousand miles- well over ten thosuand kilometers.

In terms of gas mileage, the B-36 wins over the Maus, even though the two weigh roughly the same... and I'm pretty sure the Hydra supertank was bigger than a Maus, and therefore even heavier. What it comes down to, really, is that an aircraft can afford to be half fuel by weight- or, in this case, half cosmic energy batteries by weight. A tank cannot, because so much of its mass is eaten up by heavy slabs of armor plate.

So I'd think it perfectly feasible for the flying wing bomber to be run off of batteries. The fact that it stayed in the air even without the Cube suggests that it had batteries capable of running it for a considerable distance, too. It may have been capable of being powered directly from the Cube, and that's totally reasonable, but not necessary. And I'd still say the best explanation is that the Red Skull wanted to be sure he could take the Cube with him- as noted, he was escaping his last remaining base in this plane, and the Cube is a truly irreplaceable asset left to his organization. The smart, and safe, thing to do is take it with him, whether he needs it to power the plane or not.


While I daresay that the HYDRA flying wing would be substantially larger than the Peacemaker, I'll not dispute this too heavily. It is, however, going to require an operational range of several thousand kilometers, which -- again -- might have exceeded what the plane could have done with batteries. It's apparently not just crossing the Atlantic, it's making an additional cross-continent flight to hit major cities all over America. If nothing else, connecting the CC directly to the plane's engines gives him a range that is limited only by wear on the machinery, not fuel.

And it's undoubtedly true that half the reason he made a way to plug it into the plane was so he'd have the option of taking the thing with him. I'd have to guess that he took Zola's plans and assorted other documents that he would need to rebuild HYDRA in a new location, although I wouldn't put it past him to already have some sort of backup base outside of Germany (maybe he was planning to land in South America after bombing the US?).
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Ted C » 2011-08-01 04:16pm

dragon wrote:once planes get going they tend to be fairly decent on fuel unless it's the SR-71. Man talk about a gas guzzler

Anyway question.
I know the red skull didn't die as he shows up later but where did he get sent?


I don't know where/when he "shows up later" in move continuity, but based on the effect we saw, it's reasonable to guess that he ended up on one of the other Nine Worlds that Thor spoke about in his movie. There's good reason to think that in the movie-universe, the Cube is an Asgardian artifact. We shouldn't assume that it has all the properties of a comics-universe Cosmic Cube.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Imperial Overlord » 2011-08-01 06:46pm

Hydra power storage systems allow for hand held disintegrator guns, giant tanks with disintegrator cannons, and bombs capable of laying waste to the East Coast. Powering a giant flying wing isn't going to require more cube energy than laying waste to the East Coast.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Simon_Jester » 2011-08-01 08:37pm

dragon wrote:once planes get going they tend to be fairly decent on fuel unless it's the SR-71. Man talk about a gas guzzler
SR-71 actually gets pretty good mileage at Mach 3, too. Sure, it's burning fuel like crazy, but it covers a fuckton of miles to compensate.

There are a number of planes that are more fuel-efficient at supersonic speeds; the SR-71 is one of them.

Ted C wrote:While I daresay that the HYDRA flying wing would be substantially larger than the Peacemaker, I'll not dispute this too heavily. It is, however, going to require an operational range of several thousand kilometers, which -- again -- might have exceeded what the plane could have done with batteries.
Well, the HYDRA tank is bigger than the Maus... just how big is that flying wing, anyway? The B-36 was flipping huge.

Anyway. Given the high energy density of the batteries, I bet the plane could make it across the Atlantic and back on battery power- they're a much better energy storage medium than gasoline, and planes that big can manage intercontinental range on gasoline if they're built right.

But yeah, onboard power supply is good. They tried this with the B-36 too, believe it or not- nuclear reactor, but they never worked the bugs out.

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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Zor » 2011-08-02 02:36am

In regards to the Japanese American Soldier, they were fighting in Italy and thats where the 442nd fought. Some of those guys got captured as well. Captain's team was a special unit. Nothing worth getting in a fuss about and it gets across the fact that despite comming from an era where that nonsense was common that Cap is not a bigot.

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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Havok » 2011-08-02 06:01am

Where does the Red Skull show up later? I mean, I know they aren't going to waste Hugo Weaving and not bring him back at some point, but he hasn't shown back up yet.

As for where he went? One of the Nine Realms that was mentioned. Keep in mind that in the comic-verse Asgard and the Nine Realms have universal reach and impact. The OdinForce is one of the strongest sources of power in the multiverse, which makes Asgard a major player in universal events... if they want to be. They tend to stick to the Nine Realms, which I think is fine with the rest of the Marvel Big Powers. It may not be that way in the comic-verse, but the potential is there.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Flagg » 2011-08-02 08:09am

I dunno, the more time I have to dwell on the problems with this movie the less I like it. I mean it's passable and better than most superhero crap we get, but aside from the performce by Evans as Cap, there really wasn't much to write home about.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Anguirus » 2011-08-02 10:48am

(3)It was some sound added later.


It's ALWAYS sound added later. Drives naturalists crazy.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Ahriman238 » 2011-08-02 02:46pm

Where does the Red Skull show up later? I mean, I know they aren't going to waste Hugo Weaving and not bring him back at some point, but he hasn't shown back up yet.

As for where he went? One of the Nine Realms that was mentioned. Keep in mind that in the comic-verse Asgard and the Nine Realms have universal reach and impact. The OdinForce is one of the strongest sources of power in the multiverse, which makes Asgard a major player in universal events... if they want to be. They tend to stick to the Nine Realms, which I think is fine with the rest of the Marvel Big Powers. It may not be that way in the comic-verse, but the potential is there.


Somewhere he'll keep for seventy years or so. I like to imagine him blustering at Surtr or cracking jokes with Fafnir the Dragon. Which raises an interesting point, besides Earth and Asgard, none of the Nine Realms are much fun to visit.
Then again, he could just as easilt have been sent to anywhere on earth/this plane of existence, or somewhere else entirely. Or, being a Cube, another time. Just as long as he gets back to earth during the 21st century.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby Imperial Overlord » 2011-08-02 06:58pm

Ahriman238 wrote:Somewhere he'll keep for seventy years or so. I like to imagine him blustering at Surtr or cracking jokes with Fafnir the Dragon. Which raises an interesting point, besides Earth and Asgard, none of the Nine Realms are much fun to visit.


The residents of Alfheim might object to that.

As for the Skull, I thought he was sucked up into the cube. Which means he can be released in the appropriate movie and link up with the modern version of Hydra and do bad things.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby lordofchange13 » 2011-08-02 09:48pm

LadyTevar wrote:another old Hero the Red Tornado who was also a robot/android.

Red tornado is a charcter from DC not marvel.
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Re: Captain America SPOILERS!

Postby CaptainChewbacca » 2011-08-02 10:54pm

Top of this very page, LoC.
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