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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Just saw Thor (Some Spoilers)

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Elheru Aran
PostPosted: 2011-05-13 10:20am 

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Well, I do understand where you're coming from and I certainly won't argue that it's not a good story. I do enjoy it myself, and I'd watch this movie if it was ever made.

The problem is, is this a story that would go over with Joe Six-Pack in the theater? Is Joe Moviegoer going to shell out eight bucks to watch Thor tussle with Thorse? Or would he rather see Thor and Captain America kicking Hulk's ass together?

It'd remind people of Iron Man 2, actually, now that I think of it. Is it doable? Possibly. Would it sell? I kinda doubt it. If they shoot for a Thor 2, they'll do it after the character has been rooted further into the popular consciousness by the Avengers movie and people are more willing to accept the adventures of the character on his own. Thor was a gamble to start with, but it paid off; they aren't necessarily going to risk it with Thorse.
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mr friendly guy
PostPosted: 2011-05-13 11:37am 

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Any one but me want to see Hela as a villain and love rival? Granted we might have to change her back story a bit since she is the daughter of Loki, which makes her Thor's niece by adoption but not by blood.

We can introduce Hela as a prophecy the Jotuns have that one will rise among them who will defeat Asgard. Young Hela is thought not to be that person because she is female, and all the chosen ones must be male. :D

We can have her ally with Malekith. Malekith is stealing the souls of humans for his master spell, hence he comes into conflict with Thor.

Odin is transported far away with the master spell and its predicted it will take him years to get back. Asgard is invaded by armies of the dead and the dark elves, with the Destroyer being rebuilt and empowered by Hela, who kills Thor. Malekith steals the Casket of Eternal winters and freezes Asgard over.

Hela wants to make Thor her um, king, a common plot point both in Ultimate Thor and the regular Thor comic. Sure she is a Jotun, but she has no loyalty to them because they treated shabbily (since she is kind of deformed underneath her mask) so why not get on with Thor.

However in death the thunder God's spirit refuses to give up. Managing to fight his way out his spirit joins with his body and comes alive again to fight the Hela empowered Destroyer.

This time Thor discovers that Mjolnir can open a portal and teleports the Destroyer near a freaking black hole after taking some advice on astronomy from the physicists Jane Foster. :D He then fights Hela in an epic battle. However just as Hela gains the upper hand Malekith back stabs her. Thor gets his second wind and manages to defeat Malekith and in the process discovers some more of the numerous powers his hammer has which the writers have forgotten. Hela is too weak to offer much resistant and her mask comes off where we see underneath she is deformed, and in an uncharacteristic vulnerable moment has to cover her face because she doesn't want any one to see her like this.

Thor however refuses to slay her in her weaken state and helps her put on her mask. Shocked by his nobility she agrees to pull out her troops of the dead, leaving the dark elves to fall to Asgard. Meanwhile Balder and asgardian sorcerors create the Gem of infinite suns which combine with Balder's light powers counteracts the power of the casket of eternal winters.

The scene ends with Hela scrying Thor and we get a Fatal Attraction stalking vibe.
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Magellan
PostPosted: 2011-05-13 12:53pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2011-03-25 12:53pm
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*sigh* Why anyone would want the big live action avengers movie to be about them fighting the hulk is beyond me.

Hey, let's spend all this money to have them simply fight one of their own.
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Ahriman238
PostPosted: 2011-05-13 01:15pm 

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Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
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Quote:
Any one but me want to see Hela as a villain and love rival? Granted we might have to change her back story a bit since she is the daughter of Loki, which makes her Thor's niece by adoption but not by blood.

We can introduce Hela as a prophecy the Jotuns have that one will rise among them who will defeat Asgard. Young Hela is thought not to be that person because she is female, and all the chosen ones must be male.

We can have her ally with Malekith. Malekith is stealing the souls of humans for his master spell, hence he comes into conflict with Thor.

Odin is transported far away with the master spell and its predicted it will take him years to get back. Asgard is invaded by armies of the dead and the dark elves, with the Destroyer being rebuilt and empowered by Hela, who kills Thor. Malekith steals the Casket of Eternal winters and freezes Asgard over.

Hela wants to make Thor her um, king, a common plot point both in Ultimate Thor and the regular Thor comic. Sure she is a Jotun, but she has no loyalty to them because they treated shabbily (since she is kind of deformed underneath her mask) so why not get on with Thor.

However in death the thunder God's spirit refuses to give up. Managing to fight his way out his spirit joins with his body and comes alive again to fight the Hela empowered Destroyer.

This time Thor discovers that Mjolnir can open a portal and teleports the Destroyer near a freaking black hole after taking some advice on astronomy from the physicists Jane Foster. He then fights Hela in an epic battle. However just as Hela gains the upper hand Malekith back stabs her. Thor gets his second wind and manages to defeat Malekith and in the process discovers some more of the numerous powers his hammer has which the writers have forgotten. Hela is too weak to offer much resistant and her mask comes off where we see underneath she is deformed, and in an uncharacteristic vulnerable moment has to cover her face because she doesn't want any one to see her like this.

Thor however refuses to slay her in her weaken state and helps her put on her mask. Shocked by his nobility she agrees to pull out her troops of the dead, leaving the dark elves to fall to Asgard. Meanwhile Balder and asgardian sorcerors create the Gem of infinite suns which combine with Balder's light powers counteracts the power of the casket of eternal winters.


It's a pretty good idea, but if you're going to have Malekith and the Dark Elves, I demand to see Kurse. Actually, you can just substitute him for "the repaired Destroyer" pretty easily if you keep his backstory to a minimum.
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Manus Celer Dei
PostPosted: 2011-05-14 09:00am 

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Joined: 2005-01-01 07:30pm
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Magellan wrote:
*sigh* Why anyone would want the big live action avengers movie to be about them fighting the hulk is beyond me.

Hey, let's spend all this money to have them simply fight one of their own.

Because "Loki tricks everyone into fighting the Hulk" was the first ever Avengers story, you dolt. It was something of a landmark for Marvel comics in general, up there with things like Galactus' first appearance or the death of Gwen Stacy. Of course fans are going to be excited about the possibility of seeing an Avengers movie that takes cues from it.
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Magellan
PostPosted: 2011-05-14 09:41pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2011-03-25 12:53pm
Posts: 98
Manus Celer Dei wrote:
Magellan wrote:
*sigh* Why anyone would want the big live action avengers movie to be about them fighting the hulk is beyond me.

Hey, let's spend all this money to have them simply fight one of their own.

Because "Loki tricks everyone into fighting the Hulk" was the first ever Avengers story, you dolt. It was something of a landmark for Marvel comics in general, up there with things like Galactus' first appearance or the death of Gwen Stacy. Of course fans are going to be excited about the possibility of seeing an Avengers movie that takes cues from it.


No shit, but put that story into context of the movie industry. The amount of money they're putting into this (the salary of the actor's will be a shit ton already), the fact that they're probably not gonna make a sequel (unless this makes like a billion or something), and whether or not the actors are gonna get tired of this, getting them all together just to fight one of their own just seems like a waste after all that setup.
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SCRawl
PostPosted: 2011-05-14 10:07pm 

Has a bad feeling about this.


Joined: 2002-12-24 04:11pm
Posts: 3491
Location: Burlington, Canada
Magellan wrote:
No shit, but put that story into context of the movie industry. The amount of money they're putting into this (the salary of the actor's will be a shit ton already), the fact that they're probably not gonna make a sequel (unless this makes like a billion or something), and whether or not the actors are gonna get tired of this, getting them all together just to fight one of their own just seems like a waste after all that setup.


The salaries won't be as big a deal as you're making them. Some films will have two leading actors making around $20m-25m each, and that'll be the big draw of the film. (The Avengers movie will feature far more than just the actors on the screen; it will also be effects-heavy and have ruinously expensive production costs. Kanastrous would be a good one to comment here, I think.) Only RDJ will command anything close to that kind of salary for a film, and I'd wager that he won't make as much as that. If the actors' salaries for this film exceed $40m total I'd be shocked.

Having said that, yeah, corralling the Hulk (under Loki's influence) will be the central theme of the movie if and only if the execs also believe that that plot will kill at the box office. It's completely optional, and I think that it's really not necessary. Already we know that the "Avengers Initiative" was underway as early as the first Iron Man movie as a government project, so the idea of a handful of superheroes banding together in the manner that they did in Avengers #1 is already obsolete. I think that it could make a great movie, but I'm not the one the studio has to impress. They've already got me.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Edit: I see from IMDB that Loki will, in fact, be the main villain in the film. So maybe they'll follow the comics after all.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2011-05-16 03:51am 

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Maybe Hulk could feature as part of the Avengers movie? As in, part of the action but not the entirety of it?

Havok wrote:
The implication that Bifrost is too hard to, or can't be rebuilt. I'm fairly sick of the 'technology of our past that can no longer be duplicated' crap. Learn to write shit down.
Eh, maybe they can duplicate the thing, but they expect it to take a hundred years or something- the fact that they only have one Bifrost suggests that it isn't cheap or easy to build them. As does the fact that the frost giants didn't just rebuild their own interstellar teleporter after it was (presumably) destroyed by Odin in the last war.

And "yeah, we'll rebuild it some time after your mortal girlfriend's grandkids die of old age" is pretty sad from Thor's point of view, if perhaps not quite as sad as "I don't think we'll be able to fix it."
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Zaune
PostPosted: 2011-05-17 01:05pm 

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Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
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Ahriman238 wrote:
When Thor and Loki were children, they dreamed of one day hunting the Frost Giant's into extinction, finishing what their father had begun. When Thor was a man, he proposed marching an army into Jotunheim and slaughtering so many that they would never dare mess with Asgard again. Cut to the climax, and Loki is about to realize their childhood dream of genocide, but after a few days on earth, the thought of it sickens Thor. Clearly, something significant happened during his stay on earth.

Actually, my main problem with that scene was that the implication that Thor wouldn't have had an issue with blowing up Jotunheim if not for the last few days he'd spent on Earth. There's a difference between wanting redress for an act of war (and for all that he let his temper get the better of him and made a bad situation much worse, Thor did have a right to be angry about that) and wanting to wipe out an entire civilisation over it.

And by the way, seeing it in 3D did nothing to enhance the experience and I wish I'd saved the extra couple of quid.
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Simon_Jester
PostPosted: 2011-05-17 04:07pm 

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Zaune wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:
When Thor and Loki were children, they dreamed of one day hunting the Frost Giant's into extinction, finishing what their father had begun. When Thor was a man, he proposed marching an army into Jotunheim and slaughtering so many that they would never dare mess with Asgard again. Cut to the climax, and Loki is about to realize their childhood dream of genocide, but after a few days on earth, the thought of it sickens Thor. Clearly, something significant happened during his stay on earth.

Actually, my main problem with that scene was that the implication that Thor wouldn't have had an issue with blowing up Jotunheim if not for the last few days he'd spent on Earth. There's a difference between wanting redress for an act of war (and for all that he let his temper get the better of him and made a bad situation much worse, Thor did have a right to be angry about that) and wanting to wipe out an entire civilisation over it.
Right.

Thor has the trait of nobility. A "noble" person may well wage war, enthusiastically and ferociously- nobles can be bloodyhanded murderers from the point of view of their enemies. But it isn't "noble" to commit genocide, to utterly destroy an enemy's people rather than merely defeating them and punishing them for perceived wrongs. When Thor fights the frost giants, he thinks in terms of battling with them, of conquering them, of punishing them, of intimidating them... but not of exterminating them.

Thor's a warrior born and bred, but not a practitioner of total war. He'll cheerfully bash someone's door down and slaughter a few hundreds (thousands, millions?) of their warriors, but who doesn't really think in terms of annihilating his foes down to the babes in their cradles. Neither did Odin back in the day. And it's ironic that Loki, who was saved as a baby by Odin's decision not to massacre innocents, is himself totally lacking in that kind of mercy.

And I think that this difference must have been present in their characters before Thor went to Earth- Loki was always ruthless, and Thor was always, when you got right down to it, a basically OK guy. Arrogant, overconfident, thinking with his muscles, but there was a moral compass underneath it all.

Quote:
And by the way, seeing it in 3D did nothing to enhance the experience and I wish I'd saved the extra couple of quid.
I took my father to see it last night in 3D, having already seen it in 2D, and yeah, it doesn't add that much to the experience.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2011-05-17 09:15pm 

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Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
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Zaune wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:
When Thor and Loki were children, they dreamed of one day hunting the Frost Giant's into extinction, finishing what their father had begun. When Thor was a man, he proposed marching an army into Jotunheim and slaughtering so many that they would never dare mess with Asgard again. Cut to the climax, and Loki is about to realize their childhood dream of genocide, but after a few days on earth, the thought of it sickens Thor. Clearly, something significant happened during his stay on earth.

Actually, my main problem with that scene was that the implication that Thor wouldn't have had an issue with blowing up Jotunheim if not for the last few days he'd spent on Earth. There's a difference between wanting redress for an act of war (and for all that he let his temper get the better of him and made a bad situation much worse, Thor did have a right to be angry about that) and wanting to wipe out an entire civilisation over it.


First of all, children can be stupid. Little Thor and Little Loki only knew the Frost Giants as ferocious monsters from war stories and bed time fairy tails. They obviously didn't grasp that they were a civilization with a culture, children, pets etc..

Secondly, it wasn't so much Thor's time on Earth, it was the loss of his father's trust and the belief that he no longer was worthy in his eyes to be "Thor". They kinda beat you over the head with that by repeating the spell Odin cast on Mjolnir. That coupled with Loki's lies about his father's death and his mother wishing him to stay banished drove the point home. That actually backfired on Loki. If he had just let Thor think his father was alive and didn't him back, he may have just stayed a depressed hump.

Even when the Warriors three showed up. Loki could have just stood behind what he said to them earlier, that he would not countermand the last command of Odin.
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Ahriman238
PostPosted: 2011-05-18 12:23am 

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Quote:
Right.

Thor has the trait of nobility. A "noble" person may well wage war, enthusiastically and ferociously- nobles can be bloodyhanded murderers from the point of view of their enemies. But it isn't "noble" to commit genocide, to utterly destroy an enemy's people rather than merely defeating them and punishing them for perceived wrongs. When Thor fights the frost giants, he thinks in terms of battling with them, of conquering them, of punishing them, of intimidating them... but not of exterminating them.


But a noble person might also stamp out a race of monsters. The Jotuns somply weren't people to Thor and Loki, they were the bogeymen that scared them at night, and the creatures they slew in hundreds of broomstick battles.

Noble though he is, I doubt Thor ever considered a Jotun as something that might have a mother or children etc. I don't think he's actually considered that there might be Jotun babies in cradles for him to kill. Children never imagine the unpleasantness in war, which is how he can speak so cavalierly about destroying them. If you don't believe me, watch the scene where Thor and party confront Laufey again. Watch the difference in how Thor speaks to Laufey and how Odin speaks to Laufey. Odin treats like Laufey with repect, as a fellow king. Thor certainly doesn't.

Quote:
Neither did Odin back in the day. And it's ironic that Loki, who was saved as a baby by Odin's decision not to massacre innocents, is himself totally lacking in that kind of mercy


Almost Shakespearean.

Quote:
Secondly, it wasn't so much Thor's time on Earth, it was the loss of his father's trust and the belief that he no longer was worthy in his eyes to be "Thor". They kinda beat you over the head with that by repeating the spell Odin cast on Mjolnir. That coupled with Loki's lies about his father's death and his mother wishing him to stay banished drove the point home. That actually backfired on Loki. If he had just let Thor think his father was alive and didn't him back, he may have just stayed a depressed hump.


Thats... Probably true. I still like to think that Selby and Foster had something to do with it. But Thor certainly couldn't have come back without Loki doing all he could do keep Thor on earth. Call it Karma.
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Havok
PostPosted: 2011-05-18 01:09am 

Miscreant


Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
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Ahriman238 wrote:
Thats... Probably true. I still like to think that Selby and Foster had something to do with it. But Thor certainly couldn't have come back without Loki doing all he could do keep Thor on earth. Call it Karma.

Oh they absolutely had something to do with it. Once Loki put them in danger by provoking TWT and unleashing The Destroyer.
Had he not done those things, Thor may have spent a whole lot more time on Earth trying to figure things out while Loki was able to accomplish his plan.

Remember, Loki never wanted to be King, he just wanted to be found as worthy as he felt Odin found Thor. Something he proved by killing his own father when he tried to kill Odin. It was all a ruse, but he never intended harm to come to Asgard or Odin, and only wanted to keep the realm safe from Thor's hubris. He had every intention of allowing Odin to return to the throne, but with Loki, now the favored son and heir, when the time came.
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CaptainChewbacca
PostPosted: 2011-05-18 02:22am 

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I wouldn't worry too much about the 'Avengers' story, because there's been rumors about Skrulls in Avengers or Avengers 2.
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FaxModem1
PostPosted: 2011-05-21 02:57am 

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Joined: 2002-10-30 07:40pm
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Location: In a dark reflection of a better world
Just saw it.

I felt real sympathy for Loki, and sided with him. Seeing as how Thor did initially act without thinking, he would be a terrible king, and he desperately wanted Odin's approval.

That, and I found the actor rather sexy for some reason.
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Lord_Of_Change 9
PostPosted: 2011-05-21 05:29am 

Youngling


Joined: 2010-08-06 04:49am
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Saw it, liked it.

Just a minor niggling question though:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Were the worlds connected by Bifrost actual planets in the same universe or separate dimensions linked together? I'm not sure.
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Zaune
PostPosted: 2011-05-21 06:35am 

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Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
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Ahriman238 wrote:
But a noble person might also stamp out a race of monsters. The Jotuns simply weren't people to Thor and Loki, they were the bogeymen that scared them at night, and the creatures they slew in hundreds of broomstick battles.

Noble though he is, I doubt Thor ever considered a Jotun as something that might have a mother or children etc. I don't think he's actually considered that there might be Jotun babies in cradles for him to kill. Children never imagine the unpleasantness in war, which is how he can speak so cavalierly about destroying them. If you don't believe me, watch the scene where Thor and party confront Laufey again. Watch the difference in how Thor speaks to Laufey and how Odin speaks to Laufey. Odin treats like Laufey with repect, as a fellow king. Thor certainly doesn't.

I think he'd done at least a little growing up in the intervening years between those two scenes. And to be honest, I was less bothered by Thor's initial reaction than I was Odin's. Citizens of Jotunheim had broken into the seat of the Asgardian government and killed at least two security personnel in the attempt to steal a weapon of mass destruction, which at the very least demands some pointed questions be asked of their government, yet Odin seemed to shrug it off completely. I think he was so desperate to avoid another war that he wouldn't let himself see that the Jotuns were actively preparing to violate the armistice.
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Lost Soal
PostPosted: 2011-05-21 07:15am 

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Joined: 2002-10-22 06:25am
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Zaune wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:
But a noble person might also stamp out a race of monsters. The Jotuns simply weren't people to Thor and Loki, they were the bogeymen that scared them at night, and the creatures they slew in hundreds of broomstick battles.

Noble though he is, I doubt Thor ever considered a Jotun as something that might have a mother or children etc. I don't think he's actually considered that there might be Jotun babies in cradles for him to kill. Children never imagine the unpleasantness in war, which is how he can speak so cavalierly about destroying them. If you don't believe me, watch the scene where Thor and party confront Laufey again. Watch the difference in how Thor speaks to Laufey and how Odin speaks to Laufey. Odin treats like Laufey with repect, as a fellow king. Thor certainly doesn't.

I think he'd done at least a little growing up in the intervening years between those two scenes. And to be honest, I was less bothered by Thor's initial reaction than I was Odin's. Citizens of Jotunheim had broken into the seat of the Asgardian government and killed at least two security personnel in the attempt to steal a weapon of mass destruction, which at the very least demands some pointed questions be asked of their government, yet Odin seemed to shrug it off completely. I think he was so desperate to avoid another war that he wouldn't let himself see that the Jotuns were actively preparing to violate the armistice.


I think your all missing one small detail about Thor's reaction, it wasn't because of the attempted theft. He confronted Laufey and was leaving, then killed hundreds of Frost Giants, demolished what was left of their city and started another war all because someone insulted him! That is an extreme reaction to say the least and the most likely reason he was cast out by Odin
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Molyneux
PostPosted: 2011-05-21 08:52am 

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Lord_Of_Change 9 wrote:
Saw it, liked it.

Just a minor niggling question though:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Were the worlds connected by Bifrost actual planets in the same universe or separate dimensions linked together? I'm not sure.


If I'm not mistaken, it's strongly implied that both Asgard and Jotunheim were in separate universes - but still, somehow, physically collected.

From what Thor told the female-scientist-whose-name-escapes-me, it sounded like he was saying that what we see in Earth's sky actually extends into different realities - but from our perspective, we can't tell, and therefore assume that it's all just part of one cosmos. We can't see the "branches" of Yggdrasil, just what's on them - other stars and galaxies.
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Crazedwraith
PostPosted: 2011-05-31 04:56pm 

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Not like how I expected. I thought they're be a lot more fish out of water comedy stuff and a lot less Asgardian gods stuff.

Then again that meant more Sif which would be good. Also more of that Blonde fencer guy that looks like Lord Flashheart from Blackadder.
"Hey Odinson, Do I have mjolnir stuck down my pants or am I just happy to see you? WOOF!"

Kinda wish they'd just had one plotline or another.
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