What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

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What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby FaxModem1 » 2011-05-20 08:54am

During the fight on Naboo, Qui Gon and Obi Wan never get separated, and so they are able to take down Darth Maul without either of them being seriously hurt. What happens from this point on?

For a similar scenario, what would happen if Qui Gon survived the fight but Obi Wan was the one who perished?
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby TheHammer » 2011-05-20 02:18pm

FaxModem1 wrote:During the fight on Naboo, Qui Gon and Obi Wan never get separated, and so they are able to take down Darth Maul without either of them being seriously hurt. What happens from this point on?

For a similar scenario, what would happen if Qui Gon survived the fight but Obi Wan was the one who perished?


I think someone wrote a fanfic on Qui Gon surviving and Obi Wan dieing...

Hard to say how different things would be really. Obi Wan seemed to run a very similar style to Qui Gon, which makes sense since he was trained by him.

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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Ahriman238 » 2011-05-20 04:54pm

Instead of being trained by stuffed-shirt Kenobi, Anakin studies the Force at the feet of a man who was close friends with Count Dooku and who refined flipping off the Jedi Council to a fine art. More than that is anyone's guess. Would they have joined the seperatists? WOuld Anakin not have turned?

Who knows. But it'd probably be amore interesting ride.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Knife » 2011-05-20 08:37pm

A serious problem with Dooku and Qui Gon would happen. Qui Gon knows Dooku well, so Dooku leaving the Order would be difficult without Qui Gon curious enough to see/think there is something going on.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby atg » 2011-05-21 09:26pm

Wasn't Qui-Gon's death a big reason behind Dooku leaving the order?
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-05-22 12:20am

I suspect Anakin would be better off with Qui-Gon as his master. Jinn would encourage Anakin to "follow his heart," which may result in him leaving the Jedi Order to get married, thus removing himself as Sidious' "Trojan Horse." Or Jinn may encourage Anakin to NOT make a secret of his wedding, support his Padawan's case before the Jedi Council, and cite precedents until Yoda agrees that Anakin's attachments strengthen the Padawan.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Havok » 2011-05-22 03:15am

My thoughts on this...

Obi-Wan becomes a Master and takes on his own padawan, while Qui-Gon trains Anakin.

Anakin learns under, not necessarily a better master, but one that I think better fits his personality and one who is better equipped to deal with the problems he will face.

However you still have to factor in Palpatine's presence and influence. He will still have sway over Anakin and will still work to keep them apart at the crucial moments, and Dooku, while using Qui-Gon as the catalyst for actually leaving the Order, was still seeking more power and looking to the Dark Side to find it. His leaving the Jedi Order was inevitable.

There would be minor changes to what happened, but nothing major as far as how events unfolded.
Instead of Obi-Wan sneaking into the Seperatist council and getting captured in AOTC, Qui-Gon is invited by Dooku and then taken prisoner, still leaving Anakin to confront the Tuskens on his own.

What I'm not sure of is how the final confrontation between Anakin and Palpatine would go with Qui-Gon still alive.
Assuming Dooku is still killed by Anakin, Obi-Wan is still the best man to confront Greivous, but it leaves Qui-Gon, who probably still wouldn't be on the council, unaccounted for. I'm sure Palpatine would have a plan for that, but I have no idea what it would be.

Would he be there for the final showdown with Mace? Would he be helping Obi-Wan with Greivous? I can't see him commanding troops and would probably be opposed to the Jedi leading clones in battle for the Republic.

I still think Anakin would turn, as I don't think Qui-Gon would do any better at alleviating Anakin's built in fears of losing Padme, than Obi-Wan did, unless he were to help Anakin save his mother. Even then though, his dreams and visions would still be proven true if his mother were actually in danger and he would probably worry just as much about Padme and their child as much as he did with Shmi dying.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Napoleon the Clown » 2011-05-22 04:22pm

It's possible that Anakin would have been willing to trust Qui-Gon with his secrets, instead of turning to Palpatine. Guy who, as has been said, refined flipping off the Counsel to a fine art, would be someone you could trust with certain secrets. Hell, Qui-Gon was stated to have been refused a place on the Counsel because he was too willing to tell them to spin on it (respectfully) when it suited him, wasn't he?
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-05-24 03:45pm

Qui-Gon encouraged others to go with their feelings, and seems more perceptive, understanding, and accomodating of said feelings.
Dooku, while using Qui-Gon as the catalyst for actually leaving the Order, was still seeking more power and looking to the Dark Side to find it. His leaving the Jedi Order was inevitable.

It was Qui-Gon's DEATH that served as the catalyst for Dooku leaving the Order. If Qui-Gon was still alive, Dooku may still leave, but he now has an "attachment" to keep him from going too far- a function Obi-Wan Kenobi was unable to serve, considering the younger Master's "by the book" stance on Jedi forming attachments to those outside the Order.
Instead of Obi-Wan sneaking into the Seperatist council and getting captured in AOTC, Qui-Gon is invited by Dooku and then taken prisoner, still leaving Anakin to confront the Tuskens on his own.

If Qui-Gon was still alive, Dooku is less likely to turn to the Dark Side. Palpatine will likely need SOMEONE ELSE to serve as the second Sith Lord.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2011-05-24 03:46pm

Havok wrote:There would be minor changes to what happened, but nothing major as far as how events unfolded.
Instead of Obi-Wan sneaking into the Seperatist council and getting captured in AOTC, Qui-Gon is invited by Dooku and then taken prisoner, still leaving Anakin to confront the Tuskens on his own.


What if Qui-Gon and Obi-wan go together to track down Fett? No, they're no longer Master and Apprentice, but they are two experienced Jedi who are experienced at working together. Much as Anakin and Obi-wan often were assigned to the same missions even after Anakin became a knight, I could see them working together on this.

In which case, Fett is fucked. He barely escaped a single Jedi knight. A knight and a master working together take him down on the landing pad on Kamino. Either Fett dies fighting or he is captured and may or may not be successfully compelled to reveal what's going on.

What I'm not sure of is how the final confrontation between Anakin and Palpatine would go with Qui-Gon still alive.
Assuming Dooku is still killed by Anakin, Obi-Wan is still the best man to confront Greivous, but it leaves Qui-Gon, who probably still wouldn't be on the council, unaccounted for. I'm sure Palpatine would have a plan for that, but I have no idea what it would be.

Would he be there for the final showdown with Mace? Would he be helping Obi-Wan with Greivous? I can't see him commanding troops and would probably be opposed to the Jedi leading clones in battle for the Republic.


Why not? Is there anything specific in canon to suggest he have had a problem with clone soldiers or being a general?

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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Havok » 2011-05-27 02:26am

Sidewinder wrote:Qui-Gon encouraged others to go with their feelings, and seems more perceptive, understanding, and accomodating of said feelings.
Dooku, while using Qui-Gon as the catalyst for actually leaving the Order, was still seeking more power and looking to the Dark Side to find it. His leaving the Jedi Order was inevitable.

It was Qui-Gon's DEATH that served as the catalyst for Dooku leaving the Order.
That's what I just said.

If Qui-Gon was still alive, Dooku may still leave, but he now has an "attachment" to keep him from going too far- a function Obi-Wan Kenobi was unable to serve, considering the younger Master's "by the book" stance on Jedi forming attachments to those outside the Order.
Why exactly? According to the EU Dooku was enthralled by the Dark Side as a Padawan and as far as I know, he and Qui-Gonn had already been separated for years and his whole life was spent at odds with the Jedi and it was that, that was driving him away from the Jedi. And didn't Dooku pose as Sifo-Dyas 10 years before AOTC? If that is true then Qui-Gon's death wasn't the catalyst either of us think it was.

Instead of Obi-Wan sneaking into the Seperatist council and getting captured in AOTC, Qui-Gon is invited by Dooku and then taken prisoner, still leaving Anakin to confront the Tuskens on his own.

If Qui-Gon was still alive, Dooku is less likely to turn to the Dark Side. Palpatine will likely need SOMEONE ELSE to serve as the second Sith Lord.
Again why? Dooku was searching the archives about the Dark Side and supposedly learning from a Sith Holocron long before Qui-Gon was killed.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Havok » 2011-05-27 03:28am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Havok wrote:There would be minor changes to what happened, but nothing major as far as how events unfolded.
Instead of Obi-Wan sneaking into the Seperatist council and getting captured in AOTC, Qui-Gon is invited by Dooku and then taken prisoner, still leaving Anakin to confront the Tuskens on his own.


What if Qui-Gon and Obi-wan go together to track down Fett? No, they're no longer Master and Apprentice, but they are two experienced Jedi who are experienced at working together. Much as Anakin and Obi-wan often were assigned to the same missions even after Anakin became a knight, I could see them working together on this.
Palpatine used considerable energy to keep Obi-Wan and Anakin separated at key moments, I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same with Qui-Gon. That said, there is no real history of ex master/Padawans working together once that Padawan has become a Knight and taken on his own Padawan. Oh wait... isn't that the whole premise of The Clone Wars? :lol: Nevermind.

In which case, Fett is fucked. He barely escaped a single Jedi knight. A knight and a master working together take him down on the landing pad on Kamino. Either Fett dies fighting or he is captured and may or may not be successfully compelled to reveal what's going on.
I agree that would happen, I just don't see them together in this way. It would be either Obi-Wan, like it was, or Qui-Gon if he had lived and Obi-Wan would have been off doing his thing.

What I'm not sure of is how the final confrontation between Anakin and Palpatine would go with Qui-Gon still alive.
Assuming Dooku is still killed by Anakin, Obi-Wan is still the best man to confront Greivous, but it leaves Qui-Gon, who probably still wouldn't be on the council, unaccounted for. I'm sure Palpatine would have a plan for that, but I have no idea what it would be.

Would he be there for the final showdown with Mace? Would he be helping Obi-Wan with Greivous? I can't see him commanding troops and would probably be opposed to the Jedi leading clones in battle for the Republic.


Why not? Is there anything specific in canon to suggest he have had a problem with clone soldiers or being a general?
He made it pretty clear that he felt that was not the role of the Jedi in TPM. There were still missions that Jedi needed to handle and we know that some Jedi chose not to lead Clones and be directly involved in the war. I just feel that this is the path that Qui-Gon would chose. Leading Clones in a battle doesn't fit in with Qui-Gon's character at all.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2011-05-27 03:57am

Havok wrote:Palpatine used considerable energy to keep Obi-Wan and Anakin separated at key moments, I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same with Qui-Gon. That said, there is no real history of ex master/Padawans working together once that Padawan has become a Knight and taken on his own Padawan. Oh wait... isn't that the whole premise of The Clone Wars? :lol: Nevermind.


Exactly, The Clone Wars shows precisely this.

I agree that would happen, I just don't see them together in this way. It would be either Obi-Wan, like it was, or Qui-Gon if he had lived and Obi-Wan would have been off doing his thing.


Hmm, I wonder how Qui-Gon would fare one on one vs Fett.

He made it pretty clear that he felt that was not the role of the Jedi in TPM. There were still missions that Jedi needed to handle and we know that some Jedi chose not to lead Clones and be directly involved in the war. I just feel that this is the path that Qui-Gon would chose. Leading Clones in a battle doesn't fit in with Qui-Gon's character at all.


An exact quote would be helpful. I remember Qui-Gon telling Amidala that he and Obi-wan couldn't fight the battle for her or something like that, but from what I recall he could have been saying they were unable to, not unwilling to. But its been a while since I watched it.

On top of that, there's the fact that Windu said "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" in Attack of the Clones, but he obviously altered his views shortly thereafter, and repeatedly lead clones in the war. There's no reason to assume Qui-Gon won't do the same that I am aware of.

And I have a feeling that the Council would want such an experienced and skilled Jedi on the front lines.

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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2011-05-27 04:04am

The Qui-gon/Amidala quote you are looking for is this:

Panaka: "We are greatly outnumbered, we have no army."
Qui-Gon: "And I can only protect you; I can't fight a war for you."
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2011-05-27 04:07am

Excellent. That would seem to support my point.

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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Havok » 2011-05-27 04:46am

Except that none of the Jedi WANTED to lead troops, they simply did it because the Republic was threatened. Windu falling in line with the council fits with his character. Qui-Gon doing it, does not. And the point was driven home pretty hard that Qui-Gon routinely not only disagreed with the council, but directly contradicted their orders and defied them.

And again, as I pointed out, we know that there were Jedi that opposed, and did not, lead clones in the war.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby Knife » 2011-05-27 11:25am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:The Qui-gon/Amidala quote you are looking for is this:

Panaka: "We are greatly outnumbered, we have no army."
Qui-Gon: "And I can only protect you; I can't fight a war for you."


That quote only supports Qui Gon's orders from the council about protecting her, not necessarily his views on the issue. It can be seen as a practical statement as well; he can protect her, but can't take on the whole TF army by himself and even if he could then she wasn't winning her battle, he would be.
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Re: What if Qui Gon survived?(RAR)

Postby TOSDOC » 2011-06-01 12:54pm

Knife wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:The Qui-gon/Amidala quote you are looking for is this:

Panaka: "We are greatly outnumbered, we have no army."
Qui-Gon: "And I can only protect you; I can't fight a war for you."


That quote only supports Qui Gon's orders from the council about protecting her, not necessarily his views on the issue. It can be seen as a practical statement as well; he can protect her, but can't take on the whole TF army by himself and even if he could then she wasn't winning her battle, he would be.


Exactly. Qui Gon may have approved Amidala's resulting plan to grab the Viceroy because it gave him the opportunity to help her without breaking the council's mandate to protect her specifically. It doesn't conflict with Jedi leading clones if that's what the council ordered them to do at that time.
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