Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

JasonB
Retarded Spambot
Posts: 136
Joined: 2011-03-23 10:31pm

Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby JasonB » 2011-05-03 09:19pm

Caption Kirk used weapon during Star Trek Obsession that could blow off half atmosphere of a planet. UFP had something So little over year waring why did UFP not us this kind weapon against the Borg. Borg know allow other people beam over to there starships. Can someone please explain to why or is UFP just being stumped and deserved Worf 359.

User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12924
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Stofsk » 2011-05-03 09:30pm

QWho wrote:Borg: 'We have analysed your defensive capabilities as being unable to withstand us.'

Says it all, really.
Image

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 26485
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Simon_Jester » 2011-05-03 09:53pm

JasonB wrote:Caption Kirk used weapon during Star Trek Obsession that could blow off half atmosphere of a planet. UFP had something So little over year waring why did UFP not us this kind weapon against the Borg. Borg know allow other people beam over to there starships. Can someone please explain to why or is UFP just being stumped and deserved Worf 359.
Gleeby herkle. Juba wonky zappakoo. Fronxa. Bthbthbpt, ewonda tuggret loofah nah oslo, gruqazazzbot kerboing? Pottawumpa wicklebat zivvie rumpelstiltskin. Arrow time banana flies likelikelike. Ribbit. Ribbit. Halperja wiggler troopadoopameek yogwuck.

There. I think that answers the question in the spirit it was asked.

Now, if you were a person who speaks English, I might say other things in response.

Stofsk wrote:
QWho wrote:Borg: 'We have analysed your defensive capabilities as being unable to withstand us.'

Says it all, really.
Yep. I wonder, would they let someone beam on board one of their ships with a huge bomb, the way they let people beam on board without a huge bomb?

User avatar
Baffalo
Jedi Knight
Posts: 805
Joined: 2009-04-18 10:53pm
Location: NWA
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Baffalo » 2011-05-04 02:08am

JasonB wrote:Caption Kirk used weapon during Star Trek Obsession that could blow off half atmosphere of a planet. UFP had something So little over year waring why did UFP not us this kind weapon against the Borg. Borg know allow other people beam over to there starships. Can someone please explain to why or is UFP just being stumped and deserved Worf 359.

Translation: Kirk had access to weapons capable of causing damage on a planetary scale. The United Federation of Planets had quite a bit of time due to Q showing Picard and the Enterprise the threat of the Borg, so why didn't they use technology from Kirk's era against the Borg. Could someone please explain this to me or is this a case of ignorance prior to the battle of Wolf 359?

First of all, two totally different shows. TNG was supposed to be the refined, elegant Enterprise that was impossible to achieve with the original, both due to public expectations and budget. The audience of TOS wanted drama, action, adventure! And it helped if they faced enemies with weapons that could destroy entire planets. Now, sure, Kirk had access to many pieces of technology that were very destructive, but the TNG Enterprise was supposed to overcome problems with peace and non-violence. Technologically, the Federation is further along than in Kirk's day, and they may have found a reason to avoid its use, or even banned it and hid it so deep in the archives that no one found it. There could be numerous reasons for this.
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry

"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team

User avatar
DaveJB
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1906
Joined: 2003-10-06 05:37pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby DaveJB » 2011-05-04 07:33am

Curtis Saxton actually did an analysis of Kirk's "weapon" (read: tank full of antimatter) in Obsession, and found that at best case, it'd be equal to a high-yield thermonuclear bomb. Probably enough to blast the vampire cloud to kingdom come, but nowhere near enough to destroy a planet's atmosphere. Since we never actually saw the effects on the planet, we can only assume that either Kirk was either deliberately exaggerating the effects of the blast, or just didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

User avatar
Metahive
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2795
Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
Location: Little Korea in Big Germany

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Metahive » 2011-05-04 07:59am

DaveJB wrote:Since we never actually saw the effects on the planet, we can only assume that either Kirk was either deliberately exaggerating the effects of the blast, or just didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

We actually do see the effect on the planet in the remastered episode, behold:

Image
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula

O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer

User avatar
Captain Seafort
Jedi Master
Posts: 1406
Joined: 2008-10-10 11:52am
Location: Blighty

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Captain Seafort » 2011-05-04 08:00am

DaveJB wrote:Curtis Saxton actually did an analysis of Kirk's "weapon" (read: tank full of antimatter) in Obsession, and found that at best case, it'd be equal to a high-yield thermonuclear bomb.


About 1.2 Mt, based on the stated antimatter content and assuming there was an ounce of ordinary matter in there as well.

Probably enough to blast the vampire cloud to kingdom come, but nowhere near enough to destroy a planet's atmosphere. Since we never actually saw the effects on the planet, we can only assume that either Kirk was either deliberately exaggerating the effects of the blast, or just didn't have a clue what he was talking about.


Two problems with that.

1) Something hit the Enterprise, in high orbit hard enough to shake her. See here
2) As Metahive says, the remastered episode does show the result of the blast on the planet.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 26485
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Simon_Jester » 2011-05-04 11:32am

Yeah. Something definitely hit Enterprise hard enough to notice.

Also, I'm reluctant to use the "the guy speaking didn't know what the hell he was talking about" excuse unless it's absolutely necessary. This man is a ship captain who is personally involved in handling a huge bomb; you'd think he'd have at least a rough sense of what the bomb was and was not capable of.

And sure, an antimatter bomb of the stated size wouldn't be big enough to show massive "blow off the atmosphere" effects. This doesn't mean the Federation lacks (or lacked) the ability to build bombs more effective than their weight in antimatter somehow- which sounds impossible, but which is a capability we routinely ascribe to Star Wars explosives for obvious reasons.

Maybe we're looking at an early, demolition-charge version of one of the technologies that went into the wonkier and more powerful torpedo warheads that began replacing photon torpedoes during the TNG and later period.

User avatar
Darth Hoth
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2319
Joined: 2008-02-15 09:36am

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Darth Hoth » 2011-05-04 12:55pm

Simon_Jester wrote:Gleeby herkle. Juba wonky zappakoo. Fronxa. Bthbthbpt, ewonda tuggret loofah nah oslo, gruqazazzbot kerboing? Pottawumpa wicklebat zivvie rumpelstiltskin. Arrow time banana flies likelikelike. Ribbit. Ribbit. Halperja wiggler troopadoopameek yogwuck.

There. I think that answers the question in the spirit it was asked.


:lol:

Simon_Jester wrote:And sure, an antimatter bomb of the stated size wouldn't be big enough to show massive "blow off the atmosphere" effects. This doesn't mean the Federation lacks (or lacked) the ability to build bombs more effective than their weight in antimatter somehow- which sounds impossible, but which is a capability we routinely ascribe to Star Wars explosives for obvious reasons.

Maybe we're looking at an early, demolition-charge version of one of the technologies that went into the wonkier and more powerful torpedo warheads that began replacing photon torpedoes during the TNG and later period.


For generic weapons effects, I would agree, you can certainly handwave an effect powerful enough to fit the visuals. It does bother me, though, when the charge is specifically said to be antimatter-powered and we are given the mass of antimatter used. In this case it becomes glaringly obvious that something is off, and the dialogue becomes inconsistent/ignorant regardless of whether the atmosphere is blown off or not. Either the yield is horribly off, or the antimatter as such contributes a puny fractional millionth (or whatever) of the energy that goes into it. In which case whatever other mechanism makes up the actual big boom ought to be mentioned.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 26485
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Simon_Jester » 2011-05-04 01:13pm

Put it this way.

When the first thermonuclear bombs were tested, they were called "hydrogen bombs." What does this actually tell you about how the weapon works? Practically nothing- it in some way uses hydrogen, that's it. No one who didn't have to know the details of how they worked, the full complexity of the Teller-Ulam process, was informed of this, because it was sensitive information.

Now, I haven't seen the episode, but I have to ask: under whatever circumstances the bomb was discussed, would it have been sensible for them to invoke the technical details of how it generated such a large explosion? Or would they just say "be careful, there's antimatter in there," while leaving out all the complex information about how you boost an antimatter charge into a planet-shaker.

User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12924
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Stofsk » 2011-05-04 02:42pm

If you have to explain it, don't discount the possibility the exotic nature of the dikironium cloud creature contributed the most to the explosion, being as it is some kind of exotic entity that is warp-capable. And yes, I know this doesn't fully account for the dialogue the characters have, but so what? Kirk could easily be exaggerating for effect without being an idiot.
Image

User avatar
Captain Seafort
Jedi Master
Posts: 1406
Joined: 2008-10-10 11:52am
Location: Blighty

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Captain Seafort » 2011-05-04 07:21pm

Destructionator XIII wrote:The Borg do some kind of weird bullshit to disarm bombs or something too - photon torpedoes do virtually nothing to them.


Bullshit. Beaming a PT into a Borg ship worked beautifully for Voyager in Dark Frontier. Too well, as it turned out, since it triggered the self-destruct and trashed the ship too badly to scavenge any decent technology.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Ahriman238 » 2011-05-04 08:41pm

The Borg do some kind of weird bullshit to disarm bombs or something too - photon torpedoes do virtually nothing to them.





Explosives seem to work just fine. For that matter, I've never heard of the Borg having explosion suppression technology.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Asgard from Stargate? They're the only group that I can name off the top of head that has that capability. Well, presumably SG earth has it now too.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud

User avatar
Baffalo
Jedi Knight
Posts: 805
Joined: 2009-04-18 10:53pm
Location: NWA
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Baffalo » 2011-05-04 08:50pm

Destructionator XIII wrote:I'm thinking of Q-Who and Best of Both Worlds - the phasers did damage to them, but torpedoes never did anything to them that I recall. In BoBW part 2, they also couldn't beam over without taking a shuttle inside the cube's shields. Villain decay?

But it's been a while since I've seen it, and I've never seen half of Voyager. I might be mixing it up with Asgard - I did watch that specific episode just a month or so ago so who knows what's going in my jumbled brain.


Well don't forget, BOBW was the first ever encounter with the Borg. The Enterprise didn't have Starfleet's best and brightest examining every bit of data for over a year desperately trying to find a solution. Also, according to an interview with the producers, the Borg scene was supposed to be much longer, with the fleet taking the Borg's shields down and then trying to hammer them down. It was only the limited budget that kept them from making the scene longer than it was.
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry

"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14693
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: In Denial
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Batman » 2011-05-04 09:03pm

Actually, yes it had, you're thinking 'Q Who'. It was explicitly stated in BoBW that Starfleet's best and brightest had been hard at work to find means to counter the Borg, they just hadn't made sufficient headway yet.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14057
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2011-05-04 10:53pm

Simon_Jester wrote:Yeah. Something definitely hit Enterprise hard enough to notice.


supposedly shockwaves or something, but that alone should tell us it wasn't a typical occurance.

Also, I'm reluctant to use the "the guy speaking didn't know what the hell he was talking about" excuse unless it's absolutely necessary. This man is a ship captain who is personally involved in handling a huge bomb; you'd think he'd have at least a rough sense of what the bomb was and was not capable of.


Hyperbole is out too, since Spock at that time was not known for exaggeration or sense of humor. If we had no choice, we'd HAVE to go with the stupidity argument, but doing so would be a kludge.

On the other hand, to explain the event pretty much demands we don't take it literally, so in a sense we are saying "they don't know what they're talking about."

The "super antimatter" argument is part of an annoying Brain Bug regarding trek, where people consciously believe TOS was somehow "special" or inherently vastly more powerful than the succeeding generations (Even though that there exists ample evidence to the contrary.) Ususually it's based on interpretations derived from shit like that sonic weapon that hit the enterrpirse, or this scene. Of course, ST had other cases that were significantly less impressive (like a 100 megaton explosion of the warp engines totally obliterating the ship in question.)

And sure, an antimatter bomb of the stated size wouldn't be big enough to show massive "blow off the atmosphere" effects. This doesn't mean the Federation lacks (or lacked) the ability to build bombs more effective than their weight in antimatter somehow- which sounds impossible, but which is a capability we routinely ascribe to Star Wars explosives for obvious reasons.


One thing about the event that occurs to me is that people typically assume "ounce" is being spoken of as a unit of mass. It could be a unit of volume and antimatter might have some hefty density to it (At least in TOS ships it might.)

Also, if we're perfectly honest it's probably hard to blow off precisely half the atmosphere. I suppose it could also be argued "blow off" doesn't mean that the atmosphere reaches escape velocity, just that it reaches orbit.

Also, to be honest, it's quite possible to argue that Trek's usage of the word "antimatter" does not always refer to antimatter as we know it. TOS and the other series (Voyager especially) tend to ascribe some very bizarre properties to "antimatter" of various kinds (Ranging from things like it being able to exist without violently reacting with nearby matter, to triggering all sorts of spatial distortions and or Time Travel as I recall.) Basically, the latter means that ST "antimatter" is treated in the same way that we approach mentions of "black holes/singularities", "neutronium" and in Warhammer 40,000, plasma.

Maybe we're looking at an early, demolition-charge version of one of the technologies that went into the wonkier and more powerful torpedo warheads that began replacing photon torpedoes during the TNG and later period.


We could think of lots of reasons why the "supah antimatter" charge wasn't used as a conventional weapon against the Borg. We know from DS9 "For the Uniform" (I believe that's the episode) that 200 kg of Tritium resin can significantly impact photorp manuverability - I doubt that you could inject tons and tons worth of energy into a photorp by that method. Which means that you would have to deploy it as a mine, and lure the Borg into range, and hence limiting its usefulness.

There's also no idea whether such pods would survive the sorts of accelerations and general forces that one might expect in space combat. for all we know the containment was relatively fragile.

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14057
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Re: Why UFP not us TOS techology stop Borg

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2011-05-04 10:55pm

Destructionator XIII wrote:I'm thinking of Q-Who and Best of Both Worlds - the phasers did damage to them, but torpedoes never did anything to them that I recall. In BoBW part 2, they also couldn't beam over without taking a shuttle inside the cube's shields. Villain decay?


They used a focused rather than omnidirectional detonation? They used some other kind of warhead? For all we know they used them as freaking cannonballs the way they did in TUC, or they used the "god killer" setting like STV torpedoes (I'd have thought that nukes designed to destroy incorporeal life would be more 40K, myself, but eh.)


Return to “Pure Star Trek”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests