Stas Bush wrote:
Suvorov gave a figure of 17 out of 80 bunkers completed on the banks of San on the German side. Looks comparable.
Comparable to what?
In terms of percentage. Not absolute terms, of course, but I hardly think every single bunker was built on the banks of San.
Tyulenev viewed the Finnish defenses as the most fitting for the modern times. With a 78 km depth. After all, the Soviets had no choice back then but to consider it exemplary defense.
The line which had like, what - 5 modern fortifications (the Miljoonalinnake). Concrete anti-tank blocks were meant to stop Renault FT-17 tanks; hardly a modern project. The line used 14 520 cubic meters of concrete. In fact, its fortifications were inferior to the most modern ones; so the Soviet command "extolled" the Mannerheim line only because of their own exceptionally
bad luck when trying to break through it. And I could go into more detail, if you like, albeit I'm really short on time these days.
I'm talking about the fact they praised its depth. They said a defense line should be deep, and away from the border. So... where is their own depth?
Re armed? it had over 300 bunkers. A mere dozen old guns brought there could easily mean a deception attempt.
Yeah, except only a handful of the 300+ bunkers were artillery
- 7 finished according to Soviet documents. 340 were machine-gun bunkers. Another failure to produce an argument.
For these 340 - only a dozen machine guns.
Which means that the need for upgrades was serious, and the attitude was lousy even earlier than Suvorov initially stated. And the amount of work needed doesn't look that large compared, for example, to the Volga-Don Canal.
There were unfinished bunkers captured by the Germans on the old border line. Which means the work was still ongoing.
Are you sure these weren't the bunkers standing incomplete since 1939?
The mass rearmament of the FRs deemed still worthy for combat was slated for September 1941, actually. I see no reasons that would indicate otherwise.
Strange schedule. Did they expect the Germans to attack in September? Or did they expect they won't be able to mobilize until September?
Volga-Don actually used lots of heavy construction machinery which was ample during late Stalinism. On the other hand, 1939-1941 was still the middle of the third five-year plan, when many projects were done by hand, often with terrific loss of life. I judge the level of advancement of Soviet industry by the numbers of dead at canal construction. Not a fair gauge, but a good gauge when going into all the minutiae statistics is too much of a hassle.
Belomorkanal wasn't that small either. And there is the one Suvorov mentions being dug for the Pinsk flotilla - 127 km. Not meant for very large ships, but still.
Whether well trained or not, we are talking about resources being spent. In a socialistic country, that means a purpose.
No. Planned economies often waste resources... in black holes. One negative part of a command economy. In any case, that was obviously a necessary spending for a nation that desired to become a modern industrial economy (re: Stalin's 1931 speech to "run the 100 years in 10 years").
Over a hundred thousand pilots trained, with only a few thousand people in the civilian service. How does that make Russia a "modern industrial economy"?
You think they were ignorant of their ally's progress? ...Doesn't seem to be the case on the December conference.
Yes, because they were. Otherwise they wouldn't plan for "defence with unmobilized and unconcentrated forces".
What do you mean "otherwise, they wouldn't". If they expected the Germans to have the initiative and attack first, then, yes, such an approach looks ridiculous. But if it's the USSR which concentrates and attacks first, the Germans (reacting directly to Soviet forces concentrating) are unlikely to prepare and launch a full scale attack before the Soviets are ready. A more likely scenario is hastily prepared attacks attempting to disrupt the gathering of the forces - of the exact type the covering plans expected.
I'm sorry, but that's just speculation.
But this is a history forum, is it not? When something does not have solid documental proof, it's for all extents and purposes speculation.
Like the Soviets planning the Winter War? Where are the plans of that
The materials of the conference are a "solid documentary proof" that the Soviet military didn't think the way you claim.
Besides, if your forces are "unmobilized and unconcentrated", then most certainly the defense can't be expected to have reserves, which the Soviets state to be necessary.
How so? The Soviet forces had reserves. But they were unconcentrated. Once again you fail to provide evidence.
And the unconcentrated reserves can provide the described organized battle order?
You say there are reports - give me a few, why?
Here are quotes (from bdsa.ru). The ones from after Barbarossa was approved. Sorry if mistakes were made during translation (there are some locations mentioned which I couldn't find on the net as they are spelled).
По данным агентуры, немцы строят бетонированные укрепления по реке Сан, от Перемышля на запад, протяжением в 140 километров. Такие же укрепления по реке Сан строятся от Перемышля до Ярослава. Вокруг Ярослава устанавливаются цементные противотанковые надолбы.
Около города Кросне строится большой форт. По специально проложенной от станции Кросне жел. дорожной ветке прибывают составы с цементом и другими материалами для строительства этого форта.
В пограничной полосе, против участка 93-го погранотряда, немцами продолжается усиленное строительство военных укреплений...
В 30 км севере-восточнее г.Варшавы, в районе железнодорожной линии Варшава – Миньск – Мазовецки, строится пункт противовоздушной обороны.
Кроме этого, там же сооружаются железобетонные укрепления от наземного противника.
В шести километрах от г.Клайпеды, справа от шоссейной дороги, ведущей на Байор, закончена постройка железобетонных укреплений.
Также закончена постройка железобетонных укреплений около местечка Занкрук, где уже установлена тяжелая, полевая и зенитная артиллерия.
В селе Журавицы, около кладбища, в первой половине января 1941 года, построен подземный склад боеприпасов, обнесенный проволочным заграждением. В этом же пункте продолжается строительство новых укреплений.
На полях около гор.Санок роются окопы и устанавливаются проволочные заграждения.
На ст.Эйтекун, напротив выходного семафора в сторону ст.Эбенроде, в середине декабря 1940 года начато строительство укреплений. Фронт земляных работ раскинут в юго-западном направлении, протяжением около километра. В ночное время место работ освещается прожекторами.
27 декабря 1940 г. с этой станции в Сувалки отправлен военно-строительный поезд в составе 27 платформ, 13 крытых и 10 классных вагонов. В \658\ классных вагонах помещались солдаты, на платформах были погружены машины, бревна, повозки и груз, закрытый брезентом. Поезд следовал в Сувалки на строительство укреплений.
Каких-либо конкретных признаков готовящейся против нас близкой агрессии в моем распоряжении нет, но известно лихорадочное дорожное строительство, оборонительных укреплений и содержание большого количества войск в бывшей Польше.
По данным, требующим проверки, в районе Клайпеды, на расстоянии 7 10 километров от советско-германской границы, строится линия укреплений. Железобетонные ДОТ, площадью 30 – 50 кв.метров располагаются на расстоянии 500 метров одна от другой и вооружаются тяжелыми орудиями и пулеметами.
Линия укреплений проходит вокруг г.Клайпеды и вдоль шоссейных дорог Прекуле – Тильзит и Пилькаллен – Кенигсберг.
Каждая из ДОТ обнесена проволочными заграждениями и-охраняется часовыми в форме артиллеристов.
На побережье Балтийского моря от Клайпеды до Паланги устанавливаются батареи тяжелых орудий.
В районе ст.Лауксзарген, на расстоянии 500 метров от границы установлена линия проволочных заграждений. На расстоянии 500 – 600 метров от этой линии установлена вторая линия заграждений.
На ст.Тересполь строится бомбоубежище, на перекрытие которого израсходовано 1400 рельсов. Рельсовое перекрытие покрыто слоем бетона.
На ст.Журавица 10 февраля доставлено три вагона железных столбов четырехугольной формы толщиною 20 см, длиною 3 метра. Предполагается, что эти столбы будут использованы для устройства противотанковых заграждений.
Сразу же после выхода в 1939 г. на линию новой границы с СССР германское командование приступило к расширению своих восточно-прусских укреплений, к модернизации и усовершенствованию бывших польских укреплений на территории Генерал-Губернаторства.
По приграничной полосе В.Пруссии.
К 1 марта 1941 г. имелись сведения о следующем количестве законченных строительством ДОТ:
в районе Клайпеда 6 ДОТ
-"- Тильзит 3 "
-"- Пилкаллен 25 "
-"- Сталлюпенен 8
на участке Пшеросль – Рачки 18 "
-"- Лык-Просткен 13 " \758\
Всего же на участке Клайпеда – Рачки, занимающем по фронту около 300 км, отмечено законченных или находящихся в последней стадии строительства 103 ДОТ, в действительности же их, видимо, больше.
На территории Генерал-Губернаторства.
На территории Генерал-Губернаторства к 1 марта 1941 г. отмечено следующее количество оконченных или находящихся в последней стадии строительства ДОТ (железобетонных и дерево-земляных):
в районе Остроленка – до 60
-"- Варшавы – до 140
-"- Демблин (участок Рыни, Куруа) – 83
-"- Аннополь – 7
Итого: ок. 290 ДОТ.
Вместе с переброской войск и боеприпасов отмечено также усиленное строительство укреплений, аэродромов и дорог.
В феврале начато строительство линии укреплений Варшава - Модлин, на которой заняты главным образом евреи.
Также развернулось строительство укреплений по линии р.Буг.
В районе железнодорожной линии от ст. Рембертов в направлении г. Седлец отрываются окопы и сооружаются военные укрепления и проволочные заграждения.
В юго-западном направлении от г. Рачки над рекой Довстуи на протяжении 2 км проходит линия железобетонных подземных укреплений, которые в настоящее время якобы используются под склады боеприпасов и военного имущества.
На границе Восточной Пруссии с Сувалкским уездом в районе деревень Филиппово и Баколажево, построены цементные и железобетонные подземные укрепления.
От д.Носажево в сторону г.Прасныша на протяжении 18 км вдоль шоссейной дороги Млава - Прасныш строится оборонительная линия шириной 10 \59\ 12 км. На территории этого строительства проведена узкоколейная железная дорога, используемая для подвозки строительных материалов. В этом же районе построено большое количество деревянных бараков, в которых в настоящее время находится свыше 5000 германских солдат. Большая часть этих солдат работает на данном строительстве. Вблизи бараков установлены дальнобойные орудия. Все жители деревень, расположенных в районе этого строительства, отселены.
В одном километре от д.Збуйна, в сосновом лесу, по обе стороны шоссейной дороги, идущей в сторону г. Мышинец, построено 45 -50 цементированных огневых точек длиной 15 - 16 м, шириной 10 м и глубиной 7 м. Каждая с боков и сверху имеет амбразуры и замаскирована дерном и специально посаженными деревьями.
Линия укрепления на подступах к Варшаве проходит от р.Нарев до р. Висла через Струга, фольварк Зенка, ст. Милосна, к истоку р. Свидер. В районе линии укреплений в настоящее время продолжают строиться бетонные артиллерийские точки, пулеметные гнезда, противотанковые заграждения, завалы, подготавливаются для минирования поля.
В казармах крепости Модлин, что в 60 км северо-западнее Варшавы, в трехэтажных зданиях может разместиться дивизия военного времени.
Форты преимущественно современные, замаскированные от наблюдения с воздуха. Вооружение фортов состоит из тяжелых, легких, противотанковых и зенитных орудий и тяжелых пулеметов. В подвалах казарм и фортах находятся большие склады продовольствия и боеприпасов.
Одновременно с концентрацией немецких войск немецким командованием производится ускоренное строительство железобетонных укреплений и шоссейных дорог.
В район г.Лиско подвезено много готовых железобетонных гнезд, по слухам, якобы с линии Мажино, с целью установления их вблизи советской границы. В окрестностях г. Санок производится трассировка пулеметных и артиллерийских гнезд, места расположения которых отмечены небольшими столбиками с номерами.
Не исключена возможность, что на местах отмеченных столбиками, будут установлены подвезенные готовые железобетонные гнезда.
В те же районы, куда прибывали войска, доставлялось большое количество боеприпасов, горючего и искусственных противотанковых препятствий.
В апреле усилились работы по строительству укрепления. Строительство долговременных огневых точек отмечено в Сувапкском уезде в районах Шабляки - Подгурнж - Козьол, и установка противотанковых металлических крестовин в районе Ширвиндта Клайпедской области.
23.4.41 г. отмечено в районе Вабицы - Куньковицы - Русска "ВЕС" работы оборонительного характера по берегу реки Сан. С этой целью в ночь на \128\ 23.4.41 г. подвозили стройматериалы на 10 автомашинах. В этом же районе установлено проволочное заграждение в 3 кола - колья железные. Ширина забора 100 метров, высота 1 метр. 24.4.41 г. в районе м. Жиглуд-Гломча продолжаются работы оборонного характера.
В последних числах марта на ст. Старый-Загуж прибыли металлические купола для строительства оборонительных сооружений в погранполосе. Купола якобы доставлены из линии Мажино. На 24.4.41 г. в районе Гнышев, Загроды и Мунина производятся работы оборонительного характера. В указанном районе работает батальон пехотинцев. Немецкими властями спешно ремонтируется и расширяется шоссе Ясло - Сапов. На данном шоссе работает местное население.
Подтверждаются сведения о создании на границе с СССР укрепленной линии и отдельных укрепленных районов. Все работы проводились под руководством известного строителя "линии Зигфрида" - инженера ТОДТ силами немецких рабочих и солдат. Для подсобных, главным образом земляных работ, было мобилизовано 35 000 евреев. В частности, из района города Родома выселены все жители окрестных 250 деревень. Здесь создан ряд укрепленных районов. Город Седлец превращен также в укрепленный пункт.
На ст. Тересполь ежедневно прибывают по 2 - 3 состава гравия, предназначенного для сооружения укреплений около имения Лобачев, в полутора километрах от Тересполя.
С 1 апреля на границе открыто работают саперы, к местам работы подвозится лес-кругляк.
Одновременно с концентрацией немецких войск у границы с СССР отмечается усиленное строительство аэродромов и укреплений.
В Ярославе закончено строительство большого аэродрома, на который прибыли самолеты.
В лесу близ Ярослава быстрыми темпами строятся бетонированные укрепления.
Немецкими властями форсируется строительство оборонительных сооружений. Особенно интенсивные работы по укреплению границы проводятся в районе м.Белз и Заставье.
Во дворе ст. Журавица-Южная строится бетонированное укрепление. (Данные зак.агента "ВЛАДИМИРСКОГО" от 24.4.41 г.).
На станциях Перемышль, Журавицы и Ярослав отмечается строительство разных укреплений. Днем работы не производятся.
В конце апреля на ст.Перемышль в течение 10 суток стоял пассажирский поезд из 10 мягких и одного вагона-ресторана. Поезд охранялся усиленным военным конвоем. В этом поезде якобы приезжали губернатор и какой-то генерал (их фамилии не установлены), которые производили осмотр вновь возведенных укреплений.
По результатам опроса отдельных переселенцев, прибывших из Германии в порядке репатриации, строительство укреплений на границе с ЛССР началось с 1939 года и особенно активизируется за последнее время. \254\
Укрепления возводятся по всей линии границы, но мы располагаем только частичными данными по отдельным населенным пунктам.
На территории Мемельского уезда.
1. Строительные работы по сооружению укреплений производятся по берегу Балтийского моря, севернее города Мемель в пунктах: Ферстрей, Мелраге, Зандкруг, Сидершнеце и в воротах к Мемелю.
Расположение огневых точек - шахматный тип. Точки между собой связаны подземными ходами. Глубина - 5 метров, высота над землей около 2 метров, а толщина стен - 1 метр и более. Поверхность укрепления замаскирована под берег. В гнездах отмечено наличие орудий калибра 32 м/м и по 2 пулемета.
По неточным данным, в этом районе под землей имеется помещение для войск, склады боеприпасов и аммуниции. Количество гнезд не выявлено.
В пересеченной местности, вблизи этой линии укреплений, выстроены ДОТы, противотанковые надолбы и проволочные препятствия. На работе по строительству этих укреплений были заняты немцы, а лица других национальностей, якобы, не привлекались.
2. Укрепленные точки также имеются вблизи населенных пунктов: Таурлаукен, Слинчай, Акяй, Дивинчи и Плекен. Около каждого населенного пункта по 3 - 4 железобетонных точки на расстоянии 50 - 100 метров друг от друга. Поверх железобетона проложена резина толщиной 64 см.
Огневые точки в группах соединены железобетонными трубами под землей, где в полусогнутом состоянии свободно проходит человек.
Аналогичного характера укрепления возводятся в 3 км от города Мемеля в сторону Прекуле, возле имения Гесейфе, а также возле местечка Гирули.
3. В 7 км от г. Мемеля, в сторону г.Кретинга - ЛССР, построена ДОТ, замаскированная сверху хворостом под местность. Там же несколько бараков человек на 200.
Подобные ДОТы отмечены возле деревень: Сленден, Фимортен, Наудварен и имения Суркунай. По рассказам местных жителей, эти укрепления строили полтора года.
В район деревни Лелиай, по шоссейной дороге от Мемеля на Прекуле, подвозится большое количество лесоматериала и камня для строительства огневых точек. Проведена уже закладка фундамента для установки тяжелых орудий.
Имеются частичные данные об активном строительстве укреплений в Сувалкском и других уездах, так например:
1. С весны 1940 года начато строительство в районах населенных пунктов: Вижайны, Филиппово, Новинки (Сувалкский уезд), и линия строительства тянется на Августовские леса.
В данное время наблюдается усиленный подвоз стройматериалов - цемента, камня, леса.
Такие же работы проводятся за местечком Краснополь, возле озера Вигри, а по линии Пшеросль - Филиппов - Бакалжево - Рачки - строятся ДОТы по западным берегам озер и реки Роспуда. На строительстве заняты саперные части. Перед ДОТами строятся противотанковые заграждения и тянется проволока.
При въезде в мест. Рачки, со стороны Сувалок, с правой стороны моста 3 ДОТа, а с левой - 4 ДОТа. Строительство продолжается.
К югу от города Сувалок, на расстоянии 8 - 9 км, по дороге СувалкиАвгустов, в лесу, строятся огневые точки и проводится дополнительное шоссе. Эти работы продолжаются около года. \255\
2. На территории Тильзит-Рагнитского уезда укрепленные точки отмечены в лесах Екштаркен - за городом Пагеген. Первоначально работали военнопленные французы (видимо, только на земляных работах), а в настоящее время на работах заняты немцы-саперы.
Продолжаются работы по устройству оборонительных сооружений вблизи границы, главным образом в ночное время.
По дороге Просткен - Остроколен с правой стороны построены три огневые точки.
На протяжении 1940 года и до сего времени по всему берегу р.Нарев строятся укрепления разных видов, ежедневно со ст.Остроленка на автомашинах и подводах к местам строительства подвозится цемент, железо, доски и др. строительные материалы.
В 600 метрах от границы в направлении ст.Плятеров в 1 км от ж.д. полотна вправо производится строительство ДОТ.
Источник "Ковалевский", будучи на железнодорожной станции Журавица, путем личного наблюдения установил, что вдоль линии границы по всей возвышенности роются окопы. За станцией Журавица... на расстоянии одного километра сооружаются бетонные укрепления.
According to the agents' reports, the Germans are building concrete fortifications along the San river, from Peremyshl to the west, extending 140 km. Similar fortifications are being built along San from Peremyshl to Jarosław. Concrete anti-tank obstacles are being constructed around Jarosław.
Near the city of Krosno a large fort is being built. Along a separately constructed from the Krosno railroad branch, trains with concrete and other materials are arriving for the building of said fort.
Near the border, opposite the territory of the 93rd border unit, the Germans continue increased building of military fortifications.
30 km south east of Warsaw, in the area of the railroad line Warsaw-Mińsk Mazowiecki, an ADF point is being built.
Also, reinforced concrete fortifications against land forces are being built at the same place.
6 km from Klaipeda, to the right of the road leading to Bajor, the building of reinforced concrete fortifications was complete.
Likewise was completed the building of reinforced concrete fortifications near the Zankruk borough, where heavy, field and AA artillery has already been placed.
In the Juravitsy town, near the graveyard, in the first half of January 1941, was built an underground ammunition depot, surrounded with barbed wire. in the same place, the building of new fortification continues.
on the Eytekun station, opposite the exit semaphore signal post in the direction of the Ebenrode station, fortification building has started in mid-December 1940. The front of the earthwork stretches about a kilometer in the south-western direction. At nighttime, the work site is lighted by projectors.
On December 27th 1940, from that station into Suwalki, a military construction train was sent, composed of 27 platforms, 13 covered and 10 passenger cars. The passenger cars contained soldiers, the platforms were loaded with machines, logs, carts and tarp covered cargo. The train went into Suwalki for building fortifications.
There are no concrete signs of a close aggression being prepared against us, but we know about feverish road and fortification building, as well as a large amount of forces being stationed in former Poland.
According to data requiring verification, near Klaipeda, 7-10 km from the Soviet-German border, a forification line is being built. Reinforced concrete pillboxes, 30-50 sq. m. area are positioned 500 meter apart and are being armed with heavy artillery and machine guns.
Fortification line is passing arround Klaipeda and along the roads Priekule - Tilsit and Pillkallen - Königsberg
Each pillbox is surrounded by barbed wire and guarded by sentries in artillery uniform.
On the coast of the Baltic Sea, from Klaipeda to Palanga, heavy artillery batteries are being placed.
Near the Laukszargen station, 500 meter from the border a barbed wire obstacle line has been placed. 500-600 meter away from it there is a second line.
On the Terespol station a shelter is being built, for the cover of which 1400 rails have been used. The rails are covered with a layer of concrete.
On February 10th, the Juravitsa station received 3 train cars of iron poles 20 cm thick, 3 meter long. Presumably, they will be used to construct anti-tank obstacles.
Immediately upon reaching the new border with the USSR, the German command started the expansion of its East-Prussian fortifications, modernization and improvement of former Polish fortifications on the General Government territory.
On the border of East Prussia.
As of March 1st 1941, data was present on the following number of complete pillboxes:
Near Klaipeda 6
Przerośl - Raczki sector 18
Lyk - Prostken 13
Overall, on the sector Klaipeda - Raczki, stretching 300 km, 103 pillboxes were reported complete or nearly complete, in reality the number is probably higher.
On the General Government territory.
On the General Government territory, as of March 1st 1941 the following number of pillboxes was reported complete or nearly complete (both reinforced concrete and wood-earth):
Near Ostrolenka - up to 60.
Warsaw - up to 140
Demblin (or Deblin?) (sector Ryni-Kurua) - 83
Annopol - 7
Overall, around 290 pillboxes.
Along with the transfer of forces and ammunition, an increased building of fortifications, airfields and roads has been noted.
In February, a building started of a fortification line Warsaw - Modlin, using mainly Jews for work.
Likewise, fortification building along the Bug river has started.
In the vicinity of the railroad from Rembertov station towards the City of Siedlec, trenches are being dug, and military fortifications along with barbed wire obstacles are being constructed.
In the southwestern direction from Raczki above the river Dovstui (Rospuda?) for 2 km passes a line of underground reinforced concrete fortifications, which are currently supposedly used as a depots for ammunition and military equipment.
On the border of East Prussia and the Suwalki district, near the villages of Philippovo and Bakolajevo, cement and reinforced concrete underground fortifications have been built.
From the village of Nosarzewo towards Przasnysz, over 18 km along the high road Mława-Przasnysz a defensive line is being built 10-12 km wide. On the territory of said construction, a narrow-gauge railway was built, used for delivering building materials. In the same area a large number of wooden barracks has been constructed, which currently house over 5000 German soldiers. Most of the soldiers work at said construction. Long range artillery has been placed near the barracks. All the inhabitants of the nearby villages have been evacuated.
One km from Zbójna, in a pine forest, to both sides of the road leading to Myszyniec, 45-50 cemented firing positions were built 15-16 meter long, 10 meter wide and 7 meter deep. Each one has gun ports to the sides and above, and is concealed with turf and planted trees.
The fortification line on the approaches to Warsaw passes from the Narev river to the Vistula river through Struga, Zenka farm, Miłosna station, to the source of the Świder river. In the fortification line currently they continue building concrete artillery positions, machine gun nests, anti tank obstacles, blockages, fields are being prepared for mining.
In the barracks of the Modlin Fortress, 60 km north-west of Warsaw, in three floor buildings, a wartime division could be stationed.
The forts are mainly modern, concealed from aerial observation. The forts' armament consists of heavy, light, AT and AA guns, as well as heavy machine guns. in the basements of the barracks and the forts there are large amounts of rations and ammunition.
Along with concentrating forces, the German command also carries out accelerated building of reinforced concrete fortifications and highroads.
To the vicinity of Lesko, many reinforced concrete nests have been delivered, rumored to be from the Maginot line, in order to put them near the Soviet border. In the vicinity of Sanok routing of machine gun and artillery nests is carried out, with the locations marked with small numbered posts.
It is a possibility, that the places marked with the posts are where the nests will be placed.
Into the same areas where the forces are arriving, large amounts of ammunition, fuel and artificial anti tank obstacles are being delivered.
In April, fortification building work has increased. Building of permanent firing positions has been noted in the Suwalki district in the areas Szablaki - Podgurnzh - Kozioł, and installation of anti tank metal crosspieces in the vicinity of Schirwindt, Klaipeda region.
23.4.41 have been noted in the vicinity of Vabitsy - Kunkovitsy - Russka VES (?) defensive works on the banks of the San river. For this purpose, in the night before 23/4/41, building materials were delivered on 10 cars. in the same area, a barbed wire obstacle was constructed 3 stakes (deep?) - iron stakes. The fence is 100 meter wide and 1 meter high. 24/4/41 in the Zhiglud - Glomcha area, defensive activity continues.
In the last days of March, the Stary Zagórz station received metal domes for building defensive structures near the border. The domes are reportedly from the Maginot line. As of 24/4/41 in the vicinity of Gnyshev, Zagroda and Munina defensive works are conducted. An infantry batallion is working in the designated area. The German authorities are rapidly repairing and expanding the road Jasło - Sapow. The local population is working on the road.
There are confirmations about the reports, that on the border with the USSR, a fortified line is being created, as well separate fortified regions.All the works were conducted under the supervision of the famous Siegfried Line builder - a Todt engineer , with the manpower of German workers and soldiers. For auxiliary, mainly ground works, 35 000 Jews were mobilized. Particularly, from the vicinity of Radom, all the inhabitants of 250 nearby villages were evacuated. A group of fortified regions was created there. Siedlec has likewise been turned into a fortified area.
The Terespol station receives 2-3 trains of gravel daily, meant for constructing fortifications near the Lobachev estate, 1.5 km from Terespol.
Since April the 1st, sappers are working on the border openly, round timber is being delivered to the working locations.
Along with the concentration of the German forces near the Soviet border, increased building of airfields and fortifications has been noted.
In Jarosław, construction of a large airfield has been completed, to which planes have arrived.
In the forest near Jarosław, concrete fortifications are being constructed rapidly.
German authorities are speeding up construction of defensive structures, especially intensive works on border fortification are being conducted in the area Bełz and Zastave bridge.
In the yard of the station Żurawica-Uuzhnaya, a concrete fortification is building is being built. (A report by the agent "Vladimirsky", 24/4/41)
On the stations of Przemyśl, Zurawica and Jarosław, construction of various fortifications has been noted. No works are conducted during daytime.
In the end of April, on the station of Перемышль, a passenger train of 10 upholstered carriages and a restaurant car was standing for 10 days. A reinforced military convoy was guarding the train. A governor and a general (last names undetermined) have reportedly arrived, for inspecting the freshly constructed fortifications.
According to the questioning of migrants, who arrived from Germany as repatriates, the building of fortifications on the border with LSSR has started in 1939, and has significantly increased lately.
Fortifications are constructed along the entire border, but we only posses partial data on individual places.
On the territory of Memel district.
1. Fortifications are being constructed on the coast of the baltic sea, north of Memel in the locations; Ferstrey, Melnragė, Sandkrug, Sidersheze, and the gates to Memel.
Firing positions' order - in staggered rows. The positions are connected with underground passages. Depth - 5 m, Height above ground - 2 m, wall thickness - 1 m and above. The surface of the fortifications is disguised as part of the coast. The nests were noted to contain 2 machine guns each and 32 mm guns.
According to low accuracy data, in this area underground there is a place to house forces, ammunition and equipment depots. The number of nests is unknown.
In rough terrain, near this fortification line, pillboxes, Anti tank obstacles and wire obstacles have been built. Germans were deployed on the construction of said fortifications, while other nationalities, reportedly, were not.
2. Fortified positions are likewise present near the places: Taurlakhen, Slinchay, Akiay, Divinchi and Pleken. Near each place there are 3-4 reinforced concrete positions 50-100 m apart. Above the concrete there is rubber, 64 cm thick.
The positions within the groups are connected underground by reinforced concrete tubes, through which a half bent man can easily pass.
Similar fortifications are being constructed 3 km from Memel in the direction of Priekule, near the Geseife estate, as well as the Giruli borough.
3. 7 km from Memel, in the direction of Kretinga - LSSR, a pillbox has been built, disguised with brushwood as part of the terrain. There are also a few barracks there, for about 200 people.
Similar pillboxes have been sighted near the villages: Slenden, Fimorten, Naudvaren and the Surkunai estate. The locals say the fortifications were built over the course of a year and a half.
Into the vicinity of the Leliai village, on the highway from Memel to Priekule, a large amount of timber and stone is being delivered for firing positions' construction. The foundation was already laid for placing heavy artillery.
Partial data is present about active fortification building in Suwalki and other districts such as:
Since spring 1940, building has started near Wiżajny, Filipów, Nowinki (Suwalki district), with the construction line stretching toward Augustów Forest.
Currently, an increased delivery of building materials was noted - cement, rock, timber.
Similar works are conducted behind Krasnopol, near the Wigry Lake, and on the Przerośl - Filipów - Bakałarzewo - Raczki line - pillboxes are built on the western banks of the lakes and Rospuda river. Sapper units are the ones working. In front of the pillboxes, anti tank obstacles are being built and wire stretches.
At the entrance to Raczki from the side of Suwalki, there are 3 pillboxes to the right side of the bridge, and 4 to the left. The construction continues.
To the south of the Suwalki city, 8-9 km away, on the Suwalki/Augustów road, in the forest, firing positions are being built and additional highroads are being laid. This work continues for about a year.
Om the territory of the Tilsit-Ragnit district fortified positions are noted in the forests behind Pogegen. At first, French POWs worked (earthworks only, it seems), now German sappers are the ones working.
Works are continuing on organizing defensive structures near the border, mainly at night time.
On the road Prostki - Ostrykół to the right, three firing positions have been built.
Throughout 1940 and until now, all along the bank of Narev, fortifications of different types are being built. Every day from the Ostrołęka station, on cars and carts, cement, iron, boards and other building materials are being brought.
600 meter from the border, in the direction of the Platerów station, 1 km from the railroad to the right, pillboxes are being constructed.
The source "Kovalevsky", while being at Żurawica railroad station, determined through personal observation, that along the border, all over the elevated terrain, trenches are being dug. Behind the Żurawica station... 1 km away, concrete fortifications are being constructed.
In other words; some people are saying that modern defense is dead. Nonsense. However, in order to be viable in modern times, the defense requires modifications - more depth, more reserves. Now, how can a defense which is not manned have reserves? How can it use its full potential? I don't think Timoshenko ignores the issue of the German element of surprise - it's simply taken for granted.
How can a defence "give time for concentration" if forces are already concentrated? A contradiction in terms. Pay attention.
By giving time to concentrate for a more effective defense, as well as other types of action. I see no contradiction. After all, there is never too much defense.
Finland was hardly an operation where speed was an issue.
Really? The USSR didn't plan to swiftly win? I'm sorry, but I've given an example. You failed to counter it with anything meaningful. Besides, the USSR did plan to win swiftly in Finland.
Pavlov states that in the fast advancing mechcorps, minor repairs which can be done by the crew are to be performed, but anything serious is simply solved by pulling the machine off the road. The slower units will come and see to it.
That's pretty reasonable, but I doubt Pavlov considered an exceptionally high level of breakdowns and huge numbers of machines being kicked out of service when confronting the German forces. The tanks were often engaged in battles with German forces - the results of said battles were not good for the Soviet tanks.
Both arguments are based on the assumption that the real life operation was identical to the plans, without the need to make significant adjustments... any evidence of that?
If the enemy is expected to have the initiative - yes. But where's the evidence that was the expected scenario?
The scenario centers around a sudden attack by the Germans. You may be right here, the Soviet command did not expect the enemy to gain the initiative, because they were still thinking in terms of long pre-hostilities, etc.
Documents which show examples of such thinking?
Inertia is very hard to shake off.
Seems to me it was shaken off quite well by December 1940.
But this exact case is a case where they proposed a plan to defend against a German attack.
A plan to defend against a German attack, which doesn't include said attack as a trigger for execution? Once again, what are you smoking? Where did you hear of a self defense law which requires written permission from a police officer to shoot the attacker?
The fact that Stalin and the Soviet leadership prepared a MASSIVE plan of evacuation of all European Soviet industry indicated that they, in fact, admitted at least in theory that there might be a military catastrophe or a long war that would require shielding industries from strategic bombing (it is their, or should I say, our great luck the concept never really caught on with the German air command!).
Mind giving some details about this plan?
What are the arguments for the claim it couldn't be abandoned then?
What is the proof it should've been abandoned, though? The USSR was known for it's ad hoc approach to stuff. Today this, tomorrow that.
It should've been abandoned because taking the parade was Stalin's duty. All you are saying is that there would have been no problem doing that.
And speculation is not history - ergo...
Unfortunately, gaps are too common to avoid speculation.
I don't think I'm the only one to say they really overdid it with the Treaty of Versailles.
So why is the USSR to blame for trading with the opressed Weimar Republic and technical cooperation with the nation?
Not for trading, for training its generals.
I'm not sure how the Soviet aid to the Weimar Republic equals same aid to Nazi Germany.
Germany was a favorable country for starting a war.
Germany was an infavourable country - in 192x-1933 it was an industrial cripple. There were no guarantees whatsoever it could even rise from the Depression. The Depression was at an all-time high and Germany was exceptionally hard hit. In 1933, there were no objective reasons to think it would get better, more powerful or whatever.
A gamble, you say? Not unusual for the Komintern.
The cutoff in cooperation post-1933 pretty much proves my point.
How? Judging from World War II, what the Soviets did by then was quite sufficient. What reason did the Soviets would have had to continue the cooperation? Time to play the other side.
Which side? The USSR was cooperating with top industrial powers. In the 20s, there was an idea that a pariah state like Germany would be excellent for tech transfer to the USSR (Junkers concessions were exceptionally important for the Soviet Airforce and air industry in general, etc.) By 1933, Germany became Nazi and that was it. On the other hand, the US was a democracy, a top industrial and it's new leaders JUST AT THIS TIME recognized the USSR diplomatically. Obviously, considering Stalins' own comments that Western democracies are better than Fascists and Nazis, the USSR chose to continue industrial development, using tech transfer from the USA, not from Germany.
Exactly. Allies of Germany when convenient, allies of the USA when convenient... proves absolutely nothing.
The USSR only restored it's industrial potential in the early 1950s (and that combined with the German reparations, anyhow).
Would the cost of the skyscrapers built after the war in Moscow have been insufficient to at least get started?
Obviously yes. A few buildings in Moscow did not and could not comprise a large share of Soviet GDP. They were but promilles, I think. I could investigate it further, obviously, by looking at the late-Stalinist skyscraper construction costs in roubles and maybe manhours and the then-Soviet GDP and total manhours. *shrugs* But it should be obvious to people with an understanding of economics, even cursory.
We are not talking about the GDP, we are talking about building a single large skyscraper.
Just like when the building started.
Exactly my point.
So... what changed that the project was abandoned?
He provides examples from 1993. Since the book was sent into printing in 1994, and published in 1995 (probably with some last moment modifications), "long" would be an incorrect word. Besides, are you certain the historical science moved on? The 2008 book The Stalin and Molotov Lines, for example, still uses Zhukov's false description of the January games.
Even some new books often fail to notice new documents, true. But, by and large, science HAS moved on.
Suvorov can still find enough to criticize. You have a problem with the examples he gives - well, details?
Such things are never guaranteed. But what is the guarantee that they would have become hostile to the point Stalin couldn't have at least bought the necessary goods (if the shortage would have been severe enough without the losses of 1941)? What could the attack change? Besides, Suvorov also mentions some blackmailing material, and that is generally worth more than some pieces of paper.
Once again, documental proof of anything Rezun mentions is necessary. Speculation is not history.
Western indifference to Soviet attacks on other countries, however, is a fact. Without the Germans capturing/destroying half the Soviet industry and conquering territory, neutrality of the West would have been quite acceptable for Stalin.
Iron railings were being scrapped due to metal shortages.
And yet, the shortages were never even near the food collapse in the First World war. Metal shortages occured from the simple fact that Britain was undergoing a massive total mobilization of war industries which was necessary to actively participate in the war and win it. The U-boats were pathetically inefficient compared to the overall volume of British-American naval traffic and became completely inefficient by 1943-45, despite their number and technical sophistication only increasing and getting better and better.
And how does all this prove Britain would have had a negative reaction?
It's not unprecended, such orders were issued in the Civil War (hmm, why not mention Tukhachevsky?)
Yeah, on one side, a man who used chemical weapons to suppress revolts, on the other, a man who nuked his army. Also, civil wars and ordinary warfare are often played by different rules.
Please, do without the drama. Americans nuked their army (or, should I even say Navy and Army?) too.
In close proximity to their own cities?
Besides, if the order never saw execution, it is not a war crime commited.
So what? Was it legal to issue?
Including his pointless battering in 1942?
Including - overall. Because other commanders also managed to lose people en masse, duh. Especially in larger battles, e.g. standoffs at Leningrad when Zhukov was already away from there.
Zhukov was the one with the worst defeats.
Not knowing where enemy forces are when your forces lack aviation and modern means of intelligence is a common occurence.
For five weeks? Even cavalry could have scouted throughout Poland if organized properly. Which wasn't done.
Cavalry can scout in case there is no active enemy hindrance. If there is, cavalry is pretty much of limited use for scouting. Just like aviation is when there's heavy flak, you know.
Then why did he advance? Nothing can change the fact that this is idiocy.
It is a fact Tukhachevsky developed a theory of mechanized operations, because he published works on it.
What are the works saying, exactly? Are they giving actual figures? Are the figures valid (mathematics wasn't his strong suite)? He had a lot of demagoguery (and technobabble obsession), but little actual theory.
In the late-1920s his views on warfare were similar to those of many commanders of the day. He had many progressive ideas and many strange ideas which seem strange in retrospect. In the late 1920s, the tank-tractor ideas, supermobilization ideas, land cruiser ideas and lots and lots of other crap was quite common in military theorizing.
So, he went along with completely idiotic ideas (or started them)... And you don't doubt his ability?
Besides, we're not talking about the twenties. He wrote the article in 1932, and conversion experiments were conducted even later.
I'm not a supporter of Tukhachevsky, but I read his works. I could be more specific, if you want.
How about the one where he said that in 1935 that Germany was building 9 battleships... at the time when only two were ordered, and it's unclear whether they were battleships or battlecruisers?
0.94 kg/sq.cm. ground pressure.
Did it seriously impact their real performance?
The problems with Russian terrain are well known.
"Roads and wheels" are not mentioned in the corresponding chapter of The Last Republic. He talks about operations in the deep rear; away from the enemy army. So long as a breach is made for you, the deployment of the army doesn't change that much.
Moving on wheels and on-road during combat is prohibited, only on march.
What is this obsession of yours with roads and wheels?
And they only had 300 of them. The Soviets had 30 T-26 for each of the mediums, and 500-600 T-28; their own medium tank (mostly with armament similar to Pz IV, being rearmed with a better one).
The T-28 was vastly inferior to the Pz IV, being an old, obsolete multi-turret tank design.
A disadvantage in mobility, but the armor and armament were similar. With a 100% numerical advantage, I wouldn't hurry to dismiss them.
I am asking; was the difference in the engine weight 5 tons? If not, where did the 5 tons go? When the Soviets built the T-50, they got the same engine as the Germans, about the same armament (smaller caliber, greater rate of fire), more armor... and it still weighed less than the very first modifications of Pz-III. This is what Suvorov's talking about.
And what does the T-50 has to do with the T-26 and German tanks?
You were the one who started the talk about Suvorov arguing the relative inefficiency of the German tanks - and that's exactly his point. He argues that without mentioning T-26 - any type fitting the description works.
We were discussing the former and latter. The T-26 is a spectacularly bad piece of engineering, and by 1941 it was hardly capable of dealing with newer German machines.
The Germans had enough of the older machines for it to deal with. And I believe we are discussing 1939, too.
Several sources insist that it was the "tractors" brought from America which had such a designation. In any event, judging from the date, they seem to be the model tested. BTW, the words that the speed is "no more that 70 kph" can easily mean the testers expected more.
They might have, but the models failed to get this speed.
And Pz-I couldn't keep up with infantry on Russian roads. Doesn't tell much about the maximum speed under other conditions.
But where is the work on the Stalin Line? At all?
There are reports to reinforce the Letichev UR, KAUR before the onset of the war.
I ask about actual work done, not paper.
How is using fixed defenses AND field defenses worse than using only field defenses?
Not a bad idea; the bad idea is the false belief that fixed defenses can operate without a mobilized army and will hold off the enemy long enough for you to mobilize.
Is there evidence of such a false belief?
He mentions fixed defenses in East Prussia, albeit with somewhat thinner walls. But then, the Molotov line also was short on 3 meter walls.
ML bunkers were, however, the most modern and powerful the USSR constructed at the time.
So what? In 1941, German tanks had 30mm armor. It was better that in 1939. It was the best they had. But it doesn't mean it was adequate
Heigl's Taschenbuch der Tanks from 1935 (translated to Russian) states:
That's not proof.
Why is that?
All I see is a description of the revolution attempt in Germany, with Suvorov stating that it looks like Hitler could have been a part of it, but he has no data.
Heh. Speculation, then. And speculation is not history.
Speculation is for filling gaps. With a conspiracy, you often have too much of these.
The armor penetration figures seem to be higher for the 45 mm.
How so? Proof?
Figures for Soviet guns are at the bottom of the table.
Suvorov gives a list a list of generals who either:
1) Went from their districts to the west
2) Were on their way to the west
3) were preparing to go.
Your point is that... in one case, Suvorov got the category wrong? How does it affect his point about the generals moving?
Not in that one case; in many cases. Alas, no time to get into detail now - be sure to requote this, I'll give a list.
So it wasn't. Still, why abandon it instead of upgrading?
Parts of SL which were deemed relevant and necessary were upgraded, in fact, or slated for upgrade. Parts which weren't, however, were left to degrade and rot away. KAUR is an example of the former
We saw a witness stating it was neglected. What does it matter that some piece of paper states it shouldn't have been?