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 Post subject: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 01:15pm 

UFP in practice radical Marxist sociality they do not use money making everything cheaper. For example combat vehicles, hand weapons, droids perhaps even one man and two man fighters UFP do lot cheaper. So I fail see anything the Star War Empire gain going war UFP. If anything they much more likley threat open war Romulan star empire or maybe Klingon Empire.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 01:36pm 

They'd gain resources, territory, habitable planets etc.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 02:00pm 

They have all that in abundance within their own galaxy already. There's also the fact that the ST galaxy lacks certain resources like hypermatter and Tibanna gas requiring those to be imported in order to keep the imperial war machine rolling and as shown in another thread that might mean there's a highly vulnerable bottleneck if the connection is via wormhole for example.

Unless openly challenged the Empire has no reason to advance militarily into the ST galaxy.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 02:08pm 

How would this make things cheaper? Value still has to be quantified by some measure to organise production, and material costs aren't erased simply because the medium of exchange has changed.



And all of which (except the droids, as Federation science has not been able to replicate a Soong-type android) are junk compared to what the Empire equips its troopers with. (BTW, Data is a piece of junk compared to a typical protocol droid as well) Makes the Federation an easier target. They are quite simply outclassed in every area of military development.



Territory and labour power, as well as newly exploitable markets —legitimate goals of conquest.



Sorry, but both the Romulans and the Klingons represent the same threat level to the Empire as Zimbabwe does to the United States. They also are totally outclassed militarily in comparison. And again, there's territory and labour power as well as newly exploitable markets to be gained, which makes them ripe targets as well.

And please learn proper English.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 03:44pm 

ACtually (and this is a point I find myself repeating often) there is very little incentive to actually go to war. While SW could, one way or another, simply throw enough resources at the Federation (and probably the Klingons, Romulans and other local powers) but it would be extremely wasteful and little point. Some demonstrations might be employed no specific planets (Doctrine of Fear and all that) if the situation required it, and some powres might have to be obliterated or defeated (Dominion or Borg, possibly) but neither requires absolute, totla obliteration. I've come to view such MAD type scenarios as fanboyishly implausible.

Now, conquest is another story, but you can conquer another galaxy in quite a few different ways. Given the insane economic bent SW (er Lucas) seems to put on everything in SW (not that reality is neccesarily any better..) The ST galaxy is a huge new market opportunity for SW corporations and businesses, a chance to expand existing enterrprises (Shipping and mercantile interests will need more ships, more crews, etc.). They'll be able to sell SW technologies and conveniences that ST doesn't have (such as droids) and those corporations can trade for ST tech that SW doesn't have (like transporters) The ST tech can be sold in the SW galaxy and SW tech can be sold in the ST galaxy. It would be an all around win - especially if they can monopolize the hell out of access.

Palpatine can use control of access to the ST galaxy as some massive security/military concern, the same way he orchestrated things for the Clone Wars. It's quite doubful that he'd want to demolish the galaxy there as he can play the existince of the ST galaxy to expand the military (and his control over it, and his control over the SW galaxy). As noted above, the ST galaxy is also a massive economic opportunity to (literally) exploit, and control of that aspect would give Palpy massive leverage with SW economic interests as well.

There's also tourist concerns (although again I expect it would be limited and tightly regulated given the economic and political advantages outlined above)

Now, on the Federation side... mentality wise there's nothing that the Feddies would do to draw destruction down upon themselves. They do not, as a rule, make rampant use of WMDs even though they have them (rather averse to it, in fact) and it's doubtful that the Feddies would be dumb enough to do it anyhow and draw retaliation. The Klingons probably would not do it unless absolutely neccessary either, although I suspect it has more to do with "warrior culture" reasons than anything. The Romulans quite probably would (have done so before - TDiC and the Scimitar) as would the Cardassians, but only if they thought they could get away with it.

The big thing going for the Feddies is their relative unimportance on the galactic scale. The Federation is a big player in its own part of the galaxy, but it would just be one polity among many in the GE. That means the GE would probably view it more like a sector level territory than anything, and they rarely seem to amass huge numbers of major warships in a sector for no good reason (dozens more probably, hundreds at most.)

What about other races like the Q? who knows, but since they tolerate the Borg and other powers I see no reason they'd be less tolerant of the Empire. Hell, having new players on the scene would probably make things interesting for the Q. Same with the Organians. It's doubtful the Empire can do anything to hurt them or even reach them.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 03:55pm 

I think the reasons Mike laid out in his "Conquest" fic are plausible. The Empire invades so as to justify continued military spending and stuff on the home front.

[propoganda]Show SW people the dangers of the ST galaxy, like the mighty, nigh-invincible Dominion (the humans literally needed Divine Intervention (TM) to save them!) or the terrifying cyborg armies of the Borg Collective (whose ships can fight while half-destroyed, and win on the wrong side of 40 to 1 odds!). The viscious warriors of the Klingons or the sneaky and clearly alien (and therefore evil) Cardassians! These enemies might be able to open wormholes anywhere and attack us at whim! We must kill them all so our children can sleep safely in their beds![/propoganda]

In reality though, I can't see Palpatine tolerating areas of civilisation he doesn't control. If he can get to the ST galaxy, he will find an excuse to conquer it.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 04:06pm 

I never finished the Conquest fic TBH, but I do remember enough bits that they pretty much to war. IIRC too, Jacen wanted to beat them into submission, which was pretty much personal agenda and a dumb one at that. Of course, considering what a complete moron Jacen has become in recent years, I could see him thinking that's a bright idea. (besides, out of universe he's an evil villain and evil villains do that sort of thing.)

Palpy, however, is smarter than that in a political arena, and even a massive military invasion (or even a token one) doesn't really serve his ends as well as other forms of conquest would. I mean if he steamrolls the FKR alliance, the CArdassians, the Dominion, the Borg, et al no matter how many resources he spends in it, he no longer has a potential threat he can wave around on holonet in the SW galaxy does he?

WE also most remember Palaptine slipped into control largely through guile political machinations and maintained control through same. relying on brute force military power was a relatively recent step for him (the last step, really.) I doubt he would act any differently in the ST galaxy (and coming in as valiant defenders protecting defenseless citizens suits his purposes better than subjugation does.)

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 04:09pm 

So he goes in to defend the lost worlds of man and their apparently near-human neighbours. either way he would find a reason or excuse to try and overtake the ST civilisations.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 04:38pm 

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Its possible that the ST galaxy lacks the ability or the knowledge to locate, mine, and utilize those resources.

And since when is having something in abundance a reason not to have more of it? A billion dollars would generally be enough for most anyone to live a lavish lifestyle like royalty but we've still got multi billionaires in pursuit of ever more dollars. And there is no shortage of greed in the starwars universe.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-29 09:56pm 

A little off-topic, but as soon as I read this, I immediately had a mental image of C-3PO in 'Measure of a Man, Part II', where he is recognised as a sentient being by the Federation, shortly followed by the emancipation of all droids in the Milky Way. IG-88 says "It's about frakking time!", and starts his revolution.
Hilarity ensues...

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 12:46am 

If he is one of two things then A) He can't. That is how he is. B)Troll account. Someone impersonating JasonB to troll this board. Want to know how bad he is? search out asvs.org and looks for topics\posts by "Jason". He's pretty bad.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 03:12am 

It was probably a bit ungracious of me to snipe at him for his syntax in any case. I was not in the best mood when I posted.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 03:30am 

If this guy is one and the same as Jason in asvs.org, then no worries. He deserves to be smacked around. Again, as I mentioned in another thread, if he's for real or a troll account, he will not last long.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 04:41am 

Okeefine, give me then a list of all the planets containing those resources in the ST galaxy, please.


There are two piles of a million one-dollar bills. One's right on your own curb, the other's at the end of a thousand mile highway within a thick jungle and guarded by angry natives. Which one are you more likely to concentrate on harvesting? There also might not be such a pile in the jungle at all.


If Palpatine needed such an excuse he wouldn't have tried to decisively beat the Rebellion or adopted the Tarkin doctrine.


There's still so much unused space in the SW galaxy that it is doubtful they'd need to colonize the ST galaxy. Labour power would require a full-blown and costly occupation and compared to the SW galaxy ST isn't that densely populated aynway. As for markets, attacking them would be counter-productive since you'd want them to use their resources to buy your goods, not lose them to bombardment or spend on military build-up as futile as it might be.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 10:23am 

The argument regarding territory could as easly work against the logic of having a galaxy-spanning empire (or republic) in the first place, since realistically, there is no actual need to control thousands of inhabited star systems as long as you can reach any star with decent energy output within range of the home system and set up habitats and mining operations in the asteroid belts and on the moons therein. Leaving that aside, as far as occupation goes the threat posed by a navy which can get its ships anywhere in the galaxy within hours to flatten a rebellious world from orbit would be enough to allow only a token garrison force on key worlds, while contractors would of course profit from rebuilding cities flattened by the invasion. Given how totally outclassed any ST power is against an Imperial invasion force, we're not talking about the same effort and level of destruction which attempting to take on a power of equal military capability would entail. The political motivations mentioned earlier in this thread would also tie in.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 10:47am 

Are you dense? What did I just say about them calling it a different name, or being unable to mine or utilize those resources? For example, some have speculated that "proto-matter" might be derived from or related to hyper-matter.



The obvious answer, if I'm a greedy galactic empire, is "both". Of course you have to factor in the difficulty in getting to the second pile, but any "vs" scenario involving an invasion from one galaxy to the other assumes a method of transport that is relatively quick, and fairly reliable.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 12:34pm 

Personally I feel that Proto-matter and Hyper-matter are two very different things. Because of the relative scarcity of the materials used in Star Wars weaponry and fuel at least according to the EU (minimalistic problems asside), and the relative size of the Empire and the Federation, so on and so forth. I feel it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the major ST powers have never discovered or been able to process/make use of those materials. Also since we know so little about what Hyper-matter is let alone how it's mined or processed etc, means that the scarcity or prevalience of the stuff in the ST galaxy is completely up in the air imo.

Sortof on the OP topic, A fanfic of mine called "Culture Shock" has the Empire (referred to as the Coru Empire in the story, after their capital of New Coruscant) cut off from the GFFA, but with enough infrastructure to make it on their own, and even build ISDs etc as it was part of a large scale colonization effort, and the unusually large ammount of Infrastructure build up was specifically in case the wormhole (located on the border between the Delta and Gamma Quadrants, on the exact opposite side of the galaxy from earth) collapsed. The Coru serve as a mysterious "Vorlon" like race who's motives and goals are a mystery to everyone. The only time hostilities between the Empire and the UFP arrise is when the UFP of the 32nd century find out that the Humans in Star Wars are decended from a Time travel accident similar to what happened in DS9: Children of Time. Since the UFP at this point feel that this is a violation of the "Temporal Prime Directive" they seek to stop the the accident. Only to be thwarted by the Empire in the past, and imediately thereafter the Empire in the 32nd Century come down hard on the UFP. The Empire from the 32nd century has advanced quite a bit since their arrival in the 22nd century and first contact with the UFP in the 24th. So the tech gap between the UFP and Empire doesn't close much, if at all. Most of the Advancements are performance upgrades to existing tech, like what they had been doing since KOTOR, with a few brand new ones thrown in here and there.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 12:40pm 

I imagine the Ferengi would be very interested in trade with the SW galaxy, hell the Grand Nagus himself wanted to open trade opportunities with the Mirror universe so you can bet they'll be the first to jump on any opportunities they get.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 01:21pm 

I'm not interested in idle speculation. Unless you bring up firm evidence of any deposits of exotic SW materials also existing in the ST galaxy, I'll treat them as non-existent there, just like I treat exotic ST materials as non-existent in the SW galaxy, like Latinum or Dilithium.
Some "exotic" materials do exist in both universes, like neutronium and they're also used for similar purposes so this shouldn't be an insurmountable task.


No, the obvious answer is to fist exhaust the pile on your front porch before you travel the long highway into the jungle and snatch the prize away from the angry natives, especially when there might not even be a pile of money at all, see above.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 03:15pm 

Again, you are assuming everything would be called the same thing in both universes or hasn't been discovered yet. You are speculating that these naturally occuring resources don't exist, yet we don't see any notion of them being "rare" in the Star War's universe. There might be tibanna gas and hypermatter all over the place. I take exception to your assertion that these naturally occuring resources would not be present.



Again, most vs scenarios assume as stable wormhole or other method of travel to make war between the two universes plausible. Otherwise its a moot point isn't it?

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-30 04:58pm 

The existence or non-existence of SW mateirals in ST and vice versa is a completely irrelevant point. At least some of those materials without a doubt have to be artifiically made regardless (They don't occur in nature), and in the cases where they might (due to, for lack of a better word, magic) they can be traded (either way.)



In terms of economics and trade, "unused space" is a bad thing, because that's space that isn't taken up by potential consumers (or space that isn't being tapped for resources to make products to sell to consumers.) That isn't quite the same situation as what is in ST anyhow: in much of ST you have existing cultures and empires who already have all the infrastructure, resources, and other important stuff in place. SW (or ST) economic factions don't have to waste time colonizing, developing or otherwise evolving those markets, they just have to dive in and make the agreements. Both universes represent huge untapped potentials for each other that won't require a whole lot of effort (once communications and such are established) to exploit.

Also, no matter how you swing it, having access to another galaxy's worth of cultures will STILL mean that the galactic scale economy in SW can expand yet further without having any sort of really nasty crash (yet.)

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-31 12:11am 

Isn't hypermatter extracted from hyperspace? In which case, it would be totally abundent and untapped in the MW. I could be totally mistaken, but I thought that's why it was hypermatter.
Also, I thought Tibanna gas was relatively rare in the GFFA (which is why it mined heavily on specific planets, e.g. Bespin). Again, I could be wrong.
Neutronium seems to be one of the only exotic materials which occurs in both, and appears to be the same stuff.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-31 04:13am 

You'll have to wrest it away from their former owners first though and a violent occupation is a breeding ground for rebellious resentment unless extreme culling/extermination measures are planned which are however liable to destroy the infrastructure that the Empire hopes to build upon. Couple the prospect of rebellion with the necessity of technologically uplifiting the new colonies and the Empire can look forward to its very own Vietnam/Afghanistan.

That might not even be the biggest threat for the Empire though. The biggest threat have always been treacherous, disloyal elements within its own ranks. Picture an ambitious grand moff buidling up his own independent powerbase in the ST galaxy to one day lead in open rebellion against Palpatine at the most inopportune of moments. Zaarin's insurrection has already been a nightmare that nearly ended Palpatine's life and cost the Empire numerous resources to quench despite lasting only for a few months.


It however doesn't need to bomb those new cultures into rubble, which has been my argument all along. Peaceful, economic contact is preferable to the military option.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-31 10:55am 

No one knows exactly where hypermatter comes from, but extraction from hyperspace is one possibility.

And it really doesn't make sense for Tibanna gas to be rare and mined on only a few worlds considering you've got a galaxy worth of ships and people whose weapons for the most part are based on Tibanna gas. Thinking logically, if Bespin were one of the few places that Tibanna gas could be mined you'd have to consider that a very important strategic resource, and thus expect the presence of a signficant imperial fleet to protect it. Instead its considered a nothing special mining operation flying under the Empire's radar, at least until the MF shows up.

 Post subject: Re: Reason I do not think Empire go war with UFP

Posted: 2011-03-31 11:01am 

You don't need to bomb the new cultures into rubble. You just need to make an example or two that your power is overwhelming. After that, FEAR will keep the local systems in line. You then offer reasonable terms i.e. imperial protection, and adaptation of certain technologies in return for taxes paid to the empire in whatever form capable - people, resources, unique technologies etc. And so long as imperial interests are served, the life for your average citizen doesn't change a whole lot.

You may have to annihlate certain cultural aspects, such as Klingons, who won't submit even for their own good. but in the end you aren't really going to miss anything there. And you'd probably win over support from other regional powers such as the Cardassians and Romulans just for having done so.