True that's an unknown alloy to the borg huh. But neutronium is 10 billion times stronger than steel whereas durasteel is only 300,000 times stronger than steel.Metahive wrote:Seven's quote means nothing because it's been contradicted on screen. Also, if they can assimilate neutronium, why don't they use it?
How "known" would durasteel be for them? There you go. Durasteel isn't all neutronium you know.The doctor said that the tubules are capable of penetrating any known alloy or energy field. Since neutronium is a known alloy, I don't see any problem here
Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Moderator: Vympel
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Where did you get that first figure from?`
Also, you can hem and haw as much as you want, fact is that canon doesn't show the Borg as being able to handle neutronium. That Iconians and the Think Tank managed to do so doesn't mean the Borg get that knowledge by default, that's just Borgwank.
Also, you can hem and haw as much as you want, fact is that canon doesn't show the Borg as being able to handle neutronium. That Iconians and the Think Tank managed to do so doesn't mean the Borg get that knowledge by default, that's just Borgwank.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
It's a big galaxy, maybe they do somewhere. They may also not be able to artificially produce the material in large amounts.Seven's quote means nothing because it's been contradicted on screen. Also, if they can assimilate neutronium, why don't they use it?
The species 8472 thing doesn't contradict what seven said as I see it. The nanoprobes get zapped before they make contact with Species 8472's technology. Seven's talking about being able to utilize the technology once the nanoprobes are able to make contact with it. This is a perfect example because once the nanoprobes were reprogrammed to avoid from getting zapped, they were able to assimilate the cells no problem. The doctor designed the nanoprobes to denaturate along with the cell afterward.
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
I ask again, where did you get the "neutronium is 9 billion times stronger than steel" info from?
You ignore once again that the Borg were unable to tune their nanoprobes that way by themselves which means your example is irrelevant for a scenario were they have to rely on their own resources. Do I also have to break out the "assimilate HMS Victory (you know, Nelson's flagship)" example out to prove Seven's line to be hyperbole? You also ignore that the Borg are in canon not capable of handling neutronium, so you can forget about them reproducing durasteel now.
You ignore once again that the Borg were unable to tune their nanoprobes that way by themselves which means your example is irrelevant for a scenario were they have to rely on their own resources. Do I also have to break out the "assimilate HMS Victory (you know, Nelson's flagship)" example out to prove Seven's line to be hyperbole? You also ignore that the Borg are in canon not capable of handling neutronium, so you can forget about them reproducing durasteel now.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw= ... =&aql=&oq= googledMetahive wrote:Where did you get that first figure from?`
Also, you can hem and haw as much as you want, fact is that canon doesn't show the Borg as being able to handle neutronium. That Iconians and the Think Tank managed to do so doesn't mean the Borg get that knowledge by default, that's just Borgwank.
but if this knowledge is common place in star wars, it wouldn't be that hard to aquire for themselves. With most technology there is a process involved like gathering the raw materials, refining it, knowing how to put it together, having the knowledge to understand how it works. I see nothing in this process which would be beyond the borg's ability to duplicate from the minds of others or reverse engineering the technology itself. If it were something mystical like being able to make a force storm sure they may never be able to do that but technology is right up their alley. It would be out of character for the borg to approach advanced technology and not even bother trying to assimilate it since it looks too complicated to understand that the nanoprobes can't make heads or tails of it.
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
All right. This should be easy to prove. I'd like you to build a CPU equivalent to a Motorola 68000 processor from out of raw materials. You have 6 months, ten people to help you, and you're permitted any amount of 19th century technology you'd like (i.e. vacuum tubes and possibly primitive lithography). You'll have all the information that the Internet can give you, and if you don't want to use the 19th century equipment we give you, you're welcome to create more modern transistors and the like by yourself.darthy wrote:but if this knowledge is common place in star wars, it wouldn't be that hard to aquire for themselves. With most technology there is a process involved like gathering the raw materials, refining it, knowing how to put it together, having the knowledge to understand how it works.
You're not going to be able to do this. Why? Because you don't have the industrial base, nor access to the components and manufacturing machinery we take for granted, nor education in the necessary fields.
It would be the same thing for anyone transported from today to Star Trek. Sure, we could learn to service existing technology - swap out chips, clean tubes, draw cables, and so on. But we wouldn't be able to understand it on a deeper level. It's the same with the Borg and Imperial tech. The Borg aren't magical beings, and given that they don't appear to innovate at all post-assimilation, to rely on them making the intuitive leaps they'd need to surmount such a huge tech disadvantage doesn't seem prudent.
Last edited by Eleas on 2011-03-12 12:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
Björn Paulsen
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
O, so you're talking about "RL" neutronium. I'm sorry to inform you that unlike what several pseudoscience sites want to tell you, actual Earth science isn't even sure how "neutronium" would work and even what's it actually composed of (other than "neutrons in some way"), so any speculations about its strength are just that, idle speculations. Therefore you better scrunch up some in-universe numbers as to how strong ST/SW neutronium is supposed to be because that is what matters here.
Even if the Borg mystically acquired the knowledge, how would that help them? They still would have to mine and refine it somehow and as has been said already, durasteel isn't just neutronium anyway.
Even if the Borg mystically acquired the knowledge, how would that help them? They still would have to mine and refine it somehow and as has been said already, durasteel isn't just neutronium anyway.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Argh. Me and my big mouth. I misread the tangent entirely.
Björn Paulsen
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Okay here's in canon information about neutronium strength:Metahive wrote:O, so you're talking about "RL" neutronium. I'm sorry to inform you that unlike what several pseudoscience sites want to tell you, actual Earth science isn't even sure how "neutronium" would work and even what's it actually composed of (other than "neutrons in some way"), so any speculations about its strength are just that, idle speculations. Therefore you better scrunch up some in-universe numbers as to how strong ST/SW neutronium is supposed to be because that is what matters here.
Even if the Borg mystically acquired the knowledge, how would that help them? They still would have to mine and refine it somehow and as has been said already, durasteel isn't just neutronium anyway.
From deep space nine episode "what you leave behind"
deep space nine episode "to the death"GARAK: I'm afraid it's a rather large problem. The cargo door is made of neutronium.
KIRA: Then the explosives we brought aren't even going to make a dent.
GARAK: You see the problem.
star trek the next generation episode "relics"WEYOUN: The central structure is composed of solid neutronium. Even a direct hit from a quantum torpedo wouldn't necessarily destroy our objective.
the original series "the doomsday machine"PICARD: Mister Worf, can we use the phasers to open a hole in the sphere?
WORF: No, sir. The exterior shell is composed of carbon neutronium. Our weapons would be ineffective.
voyager episode "think tank"KIRK: Ninety seven point eight three five. Will it be powerful enough to destroy that thing out there?
[Bridge]
SPOCK: Negative, Captain. Its hull is pure neutronium. There is no known way of blasting through it.
Assuming we take the doctor at his word about the borg being able to penetrate a material like this and let's say current science is wrong about the strength of neutronium by a factor of a few million making it at best only slightly better than durasteel, they should still be able to handle this.JANEWAY: We've got a puzzle and we're not leaving this room until we solve it. The Think Tank is out there somewhere, hiding in subspace. How do we find them? And even if we can, their ship's hull is neutronium-based alloy, impervious to our weapons. How do we capture them?
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Do you know what all those quotes are missing? Objective numerical values. That makes them rather worthless since it means we don't know how strong neutronium is vis-a-vis durasteel. Also, forget about it, in RL there's no objective measure for how durable neutronium is because it's not even yet been classified as an element so pop/pseudoscientific speculation is equally worthless. O, and I accept your concession on the whole "Borg have no way of collecting, refining and applying durasteel to repair any sustained damage due to lack of inrastructure and knowledge" issue that originally caused this tangent to crop up, I just take your silence on it as such.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
- Batman
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 16340
- Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
- Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Did they at least manage to avoid the blunder of that 'neutronium' cargo door being able to be moved by hand?
Not that I see what you'd want a neutronium cargo door for. Sure, it's the next best thing to impermeable. It's also the next best thing to impossible to open or close, which are, you know, the primary functions of a door, and you can easily go around it if you have to by simply cutting through the walls (unless those are also neutronium, which would give us some very interesting mass figures
Not that I see what you'd want a neutronium cargo door for. Sure, it's the next best thing to impermeable. It's also the next best thing to impossible to open or close, which are, you know, the primary functions of a door, and you can easily go around it if you have to by simply cutting through the walls (unless those are also neutronium, which would give us some very interesting mass figures
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
- Eternal_Freedom
- Castellan
- Posts: 10372
- Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
- Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Incidentally darthy, the "to the Death" quote doesn't work either, because Weyoun says it would not necessarily destory the objective. In other words, it might blow it up, bu it isn't a certainty.
The same is true for the "What you leave behind" and "Think Tank" quote, when they say "our weapons will be ineffective" that just means the weapons they have available right now won't work.
The same is true for the "What you leave behind" and "Think Tank" quote, when they say "our weapons will be ineffective" that just means the weapons they have available right now won't work.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
they could possibly mean that, you still have to explain away the other dialogues though. If my computer case were made of durasteel that doesn't mean dropping out of my window wouldn't damage the internal components anyway.Incidentally darthy, the "to the Death" quote doesn't work either, because Weyoun says it would not necessarily destory the objective. In other words, it might blow it up, bu it isn't a certainty.
The same is true for the "What you leave behind" and "Think Tank" quote, when they say "our weapons will be ineffective" that just means the weapons they have available right now won't work.
What a coincidence, your arguments lack any objective values as well. You say assimilation has limits yet there's no telling what these limits are making this, as you call it, idle speculation on your part. Let's say that species A, knows how to artificiallly create material B. The borg need only assimilate species A to know how to synthesize material B. At that point they may even make durasteel part of their own body structure if they found it worthy enough. Plus even if they weren't able to cut into durasteal, they could just beam their nanoprobes through it with transporter technology. The borg are known for being able to adapt and being able to assimilate anything they get their hands on. Its safe to say that the borg have this ability to assimilate star wars technology if they already assimilated the death star II as is assumed in this scenario.Metahive wrote:Do you know what all those quotes are missing? Objective numerical values. That makes them rather worthless since it means we don't know how strong neutronium is vis-a-vis durasteel. Also, forget about it, in RL there's no objective measure for how durable neutronium is because it's not even yet been classified as an element so pop/pseudoscientific speculation is equally worthless. O, and I accept your concession on the whole "Borg have no way of collecting, refining and applying durasteel to repair any sustained damage due to lack of inrastructure and knowledge" issue that originally caused this tangent to crop up, I just take your silence on it as such.
As I stated earlier, I had a feeling the main defense to this scenario is to question how they can get to this point instead of how to deal with them once they do. There should exist a critical point where once the borg have assimilated enough star wars technology that nothing stands much of a chance against them afterward. If this point isn't at the death star, it can't be too far off. As a general rule of thumb, I don't make concessions unless I state that I have like "you're right that..." or "i conceed that...". This is a classic mistake in debates like this I've noticed (point45). Never just assume i've made them just because I didn't address the point, didn't address it to your satisfaction, or didn't feel it was a point worth debunking. I may be sleeping or at work and not available to answer at the moment.
- Batman
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 16340
- Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
- Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
You obviously don't know how this works. We absolutely know what those limits are. Namely, anything the Borg have managed to assimilate. Which decidedly doesn't include Wars technology.darthy wrote: What a coincidence, your arguments lack any objective values as well. You say assimilation has limits yet there's no telling what these limits are making this, as you call it, idle speculation on your part.
How about you show evidence for that.Let's say that species A, knows how to artificiallly create material B. The borg need only assimilate species A to know how to synthesize material B.
When they couldn't be arsed to armour their drones against KE/momentum throughout all of Star Trek. The term 'No' comes to mind. Presupposes they can ever a)find out how to make and b) find the means TO make durasteel to begin with.At that point they may even make durasteel part of their own body structure if they found it worthy enough.
Which is why they routinely beam over nonoprobes instead of sending over Drones to inject them mechanically...oh wait! And we ll know transporters work perfectly well through shields.Plus even if they weren't able to cut into durasteal, they could just beam their nanoprobes through it with transporter technology.
As long as it's technology considerably inferior to or at best on par to their own.The borg are known for being able to adapt and being able to assimilate anything they get their hands on.
So basically you're admitting they couldn't outside a 'Q/Trelaine/ROB/Valen gave it to them' scenario.Its safe to say that the borg have this ability to assimilate star wars technology if they already assimilated the death star II as is assumed in this scenario.
If the only way they could get to that point is Divine Intervention, that says something about your scenario right there and then.As I stated earlier, I had a feeling the main defense to this scenario is to question how they can get to this point instead of how to deal with them once they are.
Not for any reasonable scenario, no. Presupposes they can assimilate Star Wars technology to begin with. They didn't become unstoppable in Trek, which not only has hopelessly inferior technology than Wars but is by and large reigned by complete and utter morons.There should exist a critical point where once the borg have assimilated enough star wars technology that nothing stands much of a chance against them afterward.
Or it may simply have been because you didn't know how to address the point.As a general rule of thumb, I don't make concessions unless I state that I have like "you're right that..." or "i conceed that...". This is a classic mistake in debates like this I've noticed (point45). Never just assume i've made them just because I didn't address the point, didn't address it to your satisfaction, or didn't feel it was a point worth debunking. I may be sleeping or at work and not available to answer at the moment.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
- Darth Tedious
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1082
- Joined: 2011-01-16 08:48pm
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
The fact that you've been here, and still not addressed the point doesn't help your case.darthy wrote:As a general rule of thumb, I don't make concessions unless I state that I have like "you're right that..." or "i conceed that...". This is a classic mistake in debates like this I've noticed (point45). Never just assume i've made them just because I didn't address the point, didn't address it to your satisfaction, or didn't feel it was a point worth debunking. I may be sleeping or at work and not available to answer at the moment.
Of course, it's a pretty damn stupid assumption. As has been said, how the fuck would the Borg have done this, without switching on God Mode?darthy wrote:Its safe to say that the borg have this ability to assimilate star wars technology if they already assimilated the death star II as is assumed in this scenario.
Such a point would exist. Actually getting to it without making assumptions like "RAWR!!!11!!!ONE GOD MODE WILL GIVE US TEH DEATH STAR!!!shift+1" is another matter entirely.darthy wrote:There should exist a critical point where once the borg have assimilated enough star wars technology that nothing stands much of a chance against them afterward.
I've already provided a few suggestions, you haven't addressed any of them.darthy wrote:As I stated earlier, I had a feeling the main defense to this scenario is to question how they can get to this point instead of how to deal with them once they do
EDIT: Batman beat me to a lot of what I was saying. Underlined the main thing he didn't bring up.
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
- Darth Tedious
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1082
- Joined: 2011-01-16 08:48pm
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
I call bullshit! Does the name Data mean anything to you?darthy wrote:The borg are known for being able to adapt and being able to assimilate anything they get their hands on.
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
- Batman
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 16340
- Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
- Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Or Species 8472. I mean they totally assimilated them. Oh wait.
The Borg have a pretty sad track record for assimilating species up to/below their own tech level but they're going to assimilate Star Wars because...Darthy says so.
The Borg have a pretty sad track record for assimilating species up to/below their own tech level but they're going to assimilate Star Wars because...Darthy says so.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
- Darth Tedious
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1082
- Joined: 2011-01-16 08:48pm
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
I'm willing to overlook S8472 because their tech is biowank. But Data was a machine, built with known (and readily available) materials, made by a species with which the Borg already had experience.
Kind of blows the 'no-limits-to-assimilation' theory out the window.
Kind of blows the 'no-limits-to-assimilation' theory out the window.
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
And we don't know everything that the borg managed to assimilate except more species than any shown on star trek and for thousands of centuries.You obviously don't know how this works. We absolutely know what those limits are. Namely, anything the Borg have managed to assimilate. Which decidedly doesn't include Wars technology.
sure here from "I Borg":How about you show evidence for that.
I'm pretty sure everything would include how to create durastealLt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Part of what we do is learn more about other species.
Third of Five: We assimilate species. Then we know everything about them.
from voyager episode "The Gift"
They obtain new technology from species unlike their own. Their entire existence is dependant on learning from new species and new technology with a goal of perfection. That's why most people would just take it as a given that if a drone encounter with star wars technology would look something like this:TORRES: What about these linkages. Every time I pull one out another one comes back in it's place.
SEVEN: Autonomous regeneration sequencers. They function to counteract resistance.
KIM: Amazing. How did you come up with the pattern duplication design?
SEVEN: We came up with nothing. The Borg assimilated this technology in Galactic Cluster three from species two five nine.
...
KIM: I'll start here. You said the Borg got this stuff from species two five nine. Who are they? Guess the Borg meet a lot of people, don't they? Stupid question. So, what's it like out there in Galactic Cluster three?
SEVEN: Beyond your comprehension.
KIM: Try me.
SEVEN: Galactic Cluster three is a transmaterial energy plane intersecting twenty two billion omnicordial life forms.
KIM: Ah. Interesting.
In all of star trek, really? the 29th century borg had reactive body armour, multidimensional adaptability, and Internal transporter nodes. The doctor also states the borg have body armour in episode "the gift". Body armour by its very nature protects against momentum.When they couldn't be arsed to armour their drones against KE/momentum throughout all of Star Trek. The term 'No' comes to mind. Presupposes they can ever a)find out how to make and b) find the means TO make durasteel to begin with.
... My guess is you must not know what adapt means.Which is why they routinely beam over nonoprobes instead of sending over Drones to inject them mechanically...oh wait! And we ll know transporters work perfectly well through shields.
we saw the borg queen was going to use this strategy in voyager episode "Dark Frontier".1. (often foll by to) to adjust (someone or something, esp oneself) to different conditions, a new environment, etc.
2. (tr) to fit, change, or modify to suit a new or different purpose
They wouldn't have been able to reach the level they're at now if this were the case.As long as it's technology considerably inferior to or at best on par to their own.
I'm admitting that the scenario is already set up as are every other vs scenario. I could talk all day about countless situations which brought it to this point but its irrelavent since it wouldn't change where the scenario is at. The setting takes place where the borg have a fully assimilated deathstar II. That's all there is too it. Assimilated sw tech is a given obviously.So basically you're admitting they couldn't outside a 'Q/Trelaine/ROB/Valen gave it to them' scenario.
The only way to get to any sw vs st scenario is divine intervention though, they're two seperate franchises. That's all it says to me.If the only way they could get to that point is Divine Intervention, that says something about your scenario right there and then.
Sure they became unstoppable before. In the next generation episode "Parallels", there was a quantum reality where the borg destroyed the federation.Not for any reasonable scenario, no. Presupposes they can assimilate Star Wars technology to begin with. They didn't become unstoppable in Trek, which not only has hopelessly inferior technology than Wars but is by and large reigned by complete and utter morons.
I think so, I just don't think people like the conclusions. But even in that case, that's not considered a concession by an opposing view.Or it may simply have been because you didn't know how to address the point.
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Data was taken over by nanoprobes in star trek next generation episode "evolution".Darth Tedious wrote:I'm willing to overlook S8472 because their tech is biowank. But Data was a machine, built with known (and readily available) materials, made by a species with which the Borg already had experience.
Kind of blows the 'no-limits-to-assimilation' theory out the window.
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Oh dear lord. If that were evidence, I'll direct you to the episode Scorpion, Part Two. Specifically, the part where S-8947 says "Your galaxy will be purged."darthy wrote:sure here from "I Borg":
I'm pretty sure everything would include how to create durastealLt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Part of what we do is learn more about other species.
Third of Five: We assimilate species. Then we know everything about them.
So sorry. The Borg will never be able to take over the Death Star. Going by your own take on canon, they're all going to be killed by S-8947. A character said so, and off-the-cuff statements of characters must be treated as broadly as possible, and considered completely literally true in every respect.
Which is why the Borg will fail even if they do manage to leave the Milky Way in time, of course. Don't you remember Palpatine shouting "POWER! Unlimited POWER!"? His power is unlimited. He said so himself. Obviously.
You have established that the Borg can in certain circumstances learn the technology of another species. Not that this ability is without limits. You have furthermore inadvertently established that they, as Seven says, "came up with nothing." They lack innovation. They're going to have to design an industrial and infrastructural base to power and maintain the Death Star, but they don't have those abilities and have abandoned research and development.They obtain new technology from species unlike their own. Their entire existence is dependant on learning from new species and new technology with a goal of perfection. That's why most people would just take it as a given that if a drone encounter with star wars technology would look something like this:TORRES: What about these linkages. Every time I pull one out another one comes back in it's place.
SEVEN: Autonomous regeneration sequencers. They function to counteract resistance.
KIM: Amazing. How did you come up with the pattern duplication design?
SEVEN: We came up with nothing. The Borg assimilated this technology in Galactic Cluster three from species two five nine.
Doesn't look good.
It cannot protect against bullets, which is the relevant point being discussed, i.e. that armour that doesn't fill the function of armour isn't... armour.In all of star trek, really? the 29th century borg had reactive body armour, multidimensional adaptability, and Internal transporter nodes. The doctor also states the borg have body armour in episode "the gift". Body armour by its very nature protects against momentum.
<snip inanity>
Interestingly, you forget to mention not only that these were Federation nanoprobes, but that Data allowed the nanoprobes to speak through him. There was no control allowed that he didn't permit, meaning you're verging on dishonesty in your argument.darthy wrote:Data was taken over by nanoprobes in star trek next generation episode "evolution".
Björn Paulsen
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
- Darth Tedious
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1082
- Joined: 2011-01-16 08:48pm
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Yep. That explains why Worf was able to kill a drone using a fucking knife.darthy wrote:Body armour by its very nature protects against momentum.
Oh, really? You haven't been able to come up with a single one so far.darthy wrote:I could talk all day about countless situations which brought it to this point but its irrelavent since it wouldn't change where the scenario is at.
Apparently neither do the Borg. They consistantly fail to do it. Species 8472 had destroyed over 400 cubes, and they still fly in with the same "Resistance is futile" speech. No sign of adaption there.darthy wrote:... My guess is you must not know what adapt means.
Wait, so you're saying the Borg are unstoppable because they beat the Federation in one possible reality out of how many? Having one chance in a thousand of beating the Federation falls spectacularly short of 'unstoppable'. And when I say one chance in a thousand, I'm being decidedly generous.darthy wrote:Sure they became unstoppable before. In the next generation episode "Parallels", there was a quantum reality where the borg destroyed the federation.
Yeah. Too bad they weren't Borg ones, you almost had a point! Remember, First Contact happened after TNG. Either Borg nanoprobes are inferior to Wes', or Data adapted and became immune to them!darthy wrote:Data was taken over by nanoprobes in star trek next generation episode "evolution".
Are you going to even attempt to address, or (Valen help us) refute the strategies that have already been suggested?
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
hmm you must not have seen the borg much. We've seen that when individuals become assimilated that all their knowledges and experiences become part of the collective.Oh dear lord. If that were evidence, I'll direct you to the episode Scorpion, Part Two. Specifically, the part where S-8947 says "Your galaxy will be purged."
So sorry. The Borg will never be able to take over the Death Star. Going by your own take on canon, they're all going to be killed by S-8947. A character said so, and off-the-cuff statements of characters must be treated as broadly as possible, and considered completely literally true in every respect.
Which is why the Borg will fail even if they do manage to leave the Milky Way in time, of course. Don't you remember Palpatine shouting "POWER! Unlimited POWER!"? His power is unlimited. He said so himself. Obviously.
The borg are a species based on technology and improving themselves through other species technology. The star wars galaxy would be the perfect place for them to thrive. If there was a realistic limit to assimilation, the federation would not have been so obsessed with keeping 29th century technology away from them.You have established that the Borg can in certain circumstances learn the technology of another species. Not that this ability is without limits. You have furthermore inadvertently established that they, as Seven says, "came up with nothing." They lack innovation. They're going to have to design an industrial and infrastructural base to power and maintain the Death Star, but they don't have those abilities and have abandoned research and development.
Doesn't look good.
They didn't fall immediately. It took many bullets to take them down. Perhaps it was a bullet in a non-armored area which got them down also.It cannot protect against bullets, which is the relevant point being discussed, i.e. that armour that doesn't fill the function of armour isn't... armour.
let's see...Interestingly, you forget to mention not only that these were Federation nanoprobes, but that Data allowed the nanoprobes to speak through him. There was no control allowed that he didn't permit, meaning you're verging on dishonesty in your argument.
yup sounds like a very controlled situationWORF: If they have control of a Starfleet Commander, they become an even greater threat.
PICARD: How can we be sure we can get them out of you?
DATA: It would be a considerable risk, sir, but it would also represent a gesture of trust on our part. It could be an important step toward peace, sir.
sure on the side of the drone's exposed neckYep. That explains why Worf was able to kill a drone using a fucking knife.
okay, some species assists the borg in adapting their assimilation technics so that they can assimilate sw tech assuming they can't already.Oh, really? You haven't been able to come up with a single one so far.
data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"I'm willing to overlook S8472 because their tech is biowank. But Data was a machine, built with known (and readily available) materials, made by a species with which the Borg already had experience.
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
No he wasn't. Do you even know what you're fucking talking about?darthy wrote:data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"
- Darth Tedious
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1082
- Joined: 2011-01-16 08:48pm
Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars
Too bad they don't use them. Picard knew where Data's off switch was, yet in multiple instances of Borg drones engaging Data in hand-to-hand combat, none of them switched him off, even when they had ample oppportunity to do so.darthy wrote:hmm you must not have seen the borg much. We've seen that when individuals become assimilated that all their knowledges and experiences become part of the collective.
Again, too bad those weren't Borg nanoprobes. The fact that Wes could do something the Borg can't only speaks further of their incompetence.darthy wrote:yup sounds like a very controlled situation
darthy wrote:They didn't fall immediately. It took many bullets to take them down. Perhaps it was a bullet in a non-armored area which got them down also.
Yeah! Great adaption that shows! They leave critically vulnerable areas exposed! Tell me again what the point of having armour is?darthy wrote:sure on the side of the drone's exposed neck.
Okay. Who?darthy wrote:okay, some species assists the borg in adapting their assimilation technics so that they can assimilate sw tech assuming they can't already.
Joining Lore to lead a band of renegade Borg runaways isn't being assimilated. Where were the implants? The nanoprobes? At the very least, the radical reprogramming of his neural net?darthy wrote:data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"
Oh, that's right! None of that happened! He was under the influence of Lore, who was using his emotion chip as a means of manipulation.
You must be assuming that we haven't seen Trek or something, to be trying to pull bullshit like this...
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy