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 Post subject: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 01:57pm 

As in title.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 01:58pm 

By that logic, DSI should not have any exhaust ports, yet it did.



It is only inconclusive due to your bias.



Federation is only power that has it, and it isn't using it due to Traty of Algeron.



If you were even slightly familiar with G-canon, you would not be saying that.



And you are telling me that I don't know English? What I meant was that Federation was only power which actually built useful interphase cloak.



Romulan one. But that is irrelevant.



And how about some logic and actual understanding? And you warp everything that doesn't fit your wiev.



Asteroids are usually not pure low nor pure high density materials. And Death Star isn't of high density either.



And what would prevent Federation ship from passing through shields normally and then cloaking?



Again, you show your overwhelming bias and ignore all evidence contrary to your claims.



Which level of "canon"?



It will hardly ever be lower than yours.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 02:17pm 

Picard here is a nice little page on the Death Stars, inclueding design flaws and how they were fixed. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star


As for my view, in theory Star Trek could destroy the first Death Star, however I see no possible way for Star Trek to destroy the second Death Star once it is completed

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 02:58pm 

Let's not forget that this is exactly the same phase cloak that fucked up the Pegasus in the first place. The Enterprise only considered relying on the buggy piece of shit because they had little other choice. The phase cloak is nowhere near ready for prime time, if it's ever perfected.

How does that follow? The stuff in that diagram of the DSII weren't exhaust ports. Those were never stated to be exhaust ports (unlike ANH, which did characterize the target shaft as an exhaust port), and given the real exhaust ports would be millions of milimeter sized holes, they would be irrelevant to put on a diagram showing an attack plan to fly into the reactor system.

Doesn't matter, since it's not contradicted, no matter how much you whine about it.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 03:15pm 

It's rather unlikely that a photon torpedo could make it into the DS1's exhaust port, since they haven't been seen to be able to maneuver the way a proton torpedo can, and they are significantly larger than a photon torpedo.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 03:26pm 

Imperial528, I said possible in theory, not likely, it is a 1 in a trillion holy crap shot... but in theory possible, as there was an episode where they hit a 2 meter object and I would expect a higher angle of attack, thus limiting the need for the radical turn, granted this ignores the shielding and return fire issues, but agian, it is in theory possible


And at Picard as I stated in the other topic,where is your proof that the enterpirse was allowed to keep the device? As even a passing level of familiarity with the Romulans would tell you that they would demand its distruction after Picard (the intelligent one) decloaks.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 04:53pm 

You fail so badly Picard. It wasn't useful, it was a prototype that KILLED ALMOST ALL OF IT'S TEST CREW. Good heavens man, are you so retarded you equate "prototypefailed and killed test crew" with "useful technology"?



Romulan one. But that is irrelevant.

[/quote]

Fucktard, it WASN'T a phase cloak, it was just an ORDINARY Romulan cloaking device. Please, get your own Trek knowledge straight before you try and attack Star Wars based on it

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 05:33pm 

Fucktard, it WASN'T a phase cloak, it was just an ORDINARY Romulan cloaking device. Please, get your own Trek knowledge straight before you try and attack Star Wars based on it[/quote]

That is not irrelevant, that is actaully the single LARGEST PROBLEM with this theory of yours Picard.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 05:35pm 

First, stop putting words into my mouth - those were from takemeout_totheblack. Not that he is wrong, mind you - and stop using the word "logic", you obviously don't understand it. We clearly SAW the thermal exhaust vent on the first Death Star, and it was clearly stated to be such.

Okay, let's compare:
-We didn't see any exhaust in these vents. Granted, it might be some exotic radiation or the like.
-It wasn't actually a specifically built shaft, and obviously there due to incomplete construction
-It is never referred to as a vent
-It branches off all over the superstructure, and sometimes ends within it. That would be contrary to the purpose as a vent.
-It didn't lead straight into the reactor, since they had to lock onto the reactor to find it - which would not be the case if it was a shaft specifically designed to lead into the vent.
-We have a canon-statement that explains that it wasn't a vent.

So yes, you are right. The evidence is NOT inconclusive - it conclusively shows that G-canon makes no statement about it being a vent, shows things that are contrary to it being a vent, and that we have a statement that it's not a vent. Therefore, it's conclusively not a vent.

Ignoring canon again, eh?
Both the Romulans and Klingons worked on it. Besides, having a faulty prototpye is NOT equal to having a fully functional device.
Go ahead. Just TRY to prove that statement.
Aah, here we go. So the Federation is the only power with a phase-cloak - and Sisko used a romulan phase cloak. I guess the Romulans are Federation-members now

Even nickel-iron asteroids are less dense than actual military armor used TODAY.

Since when can Federation ships pass trough shields? Oh, right, you are ignoring that SW has particle shielding.


Okay, let's see. Did he present a SINGLE SHRED OF PROOF? No, he didn't - he just repeated his claims and even contradicted himself.

Again, his self-contradiction:
"Only the Federation has phase cloaks" "The Defiant used a Romulan phase cloak". Picard, do you know the old robot saying "DOES. NOT. COMPUTE."? Well, this doesn't. And this is the reason why no one is taking your seriously (well, except possibly Destructionator XIII) - you are obviously a moron.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 05:43pm 

Serafina... the romulan cloak was a standard one not a phase-cloak.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 06:35pm 

She knows that. Picard is the one claiming otherwise.

EDIT: I have to ask, why is anyone even bothering to debate this guy? He makes shit up as he goes along, he rejects any evidence he dislikes, either by ignoring it or by claiming it violates G-Canon even when it doesn't, and he generally displays no signs of ever changing this behavior. Trying to have any sort of intelligent discussion with him seems like a waste of time.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 06:54pm 

I'm not having an intelligent discussion with him, I am poking him to see what half baked idea he comes up with next.

And as a serious question anyone know what the Death Star was armored with? I'm thinking durasteel but that is just what I would have made it out of.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 07:03pm 

The Death Stars were made of Quandanium steel. At least,Wookiepedia says that's what they're made of.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Quadanium_steel

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 07:12pm 

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-07 09:43pm 

I gave up arguing with him when he said that a few Fedie torpedoes can destroy a star destroyer.
Yea, what ever. Sheer insanity.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 01:19am 

Sure they can. They can scribble one on a piece of paper and then destroy it as much as they like. As for the actual Death Stars employed by the Empire, I'd say only through subterfuge and sabotage at best but not with a direct military assault.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 03:44am 

I'd really want to see the evidence that Starfleet ships can move thru shields at will, only incident where a federation "ship"(actually a shuttlecraft) moved thru an active shield I can remember was when the Argo went thru the shields of the Enterprise in Nemesis, but that incident has a minor problem of the Argo being launched from the Enterprise (on purpose by the crew I might add) so there was no reason for them to try to stop it (in fact it was in their best intrest make certain that the Agro got thru).

how would this translate being able to penetrate shields under combat conditions is beond me.

was that a shielded star destroyer, or an unshielded one?

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 04:24am 

If you can smuggle a photorp into a the hangar bay of a Stardestroyer, you can probably blow it up with a single TM style 64MT device. Iirc we've had several EU instances of tiny explosive devices (smaller than proton torpedoes) causing substantial secondary detonations (probably the fuel and munitions stored) and taking out the whole ship in a spectacular explosion.

But even if you could take out a couple like that (already a bit of a stretch), it's insignificant in the long run.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 08:49am 

Let me fetch you the link to the posts:
His post (and my 1st reply): viewtopic.php?p=3420126#p3420126
His reply: viewtopic.php?p=3420214#p3420214

I mean did you read that?


What is this guy thinking? Plus, specificly mentioned shielded.


So it's not some sort of tactical solution. No, he thinks that direct fire from several torpedoes at a shielded Star Destroyer will blow it up.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 09:02am 

Delusions run deep.

I was talking to this big trek fan and the topic casually got onto to Trek vs Wars. He kept saying things like "oh man, Wars has NO CHANCE! The Photon Torpedos are 64 megatonnes!"

Most people outside of our little community have no idea of the scales involved or the capabilities of SW.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 10:52am 

So DSII would simply work until it blew up?
We actually saw unfinished exhaust port (remember round thing at top?)



Your version of canon. Both Klingons and Romulans worked on it and failed utterly. Federation is only power that has access to Interphase cloak that actually works.



Episode "Pegasus": Federation experimented with interphase cloak in 2358. Cloak failed after some time. Same cloak was later successfully used by USS Enterprise D.
"The Next Phase": Romulans were experimenting with molecular phase inverter to create cloak. Experiment failed. Klingons also unsuccessfully experimented with interphase cloak.
VOY: "Distant Origin": Voth regularly use interphase cloaks, but they are not Alpha Quadrant power.



You're dumb. Sisko did not use phase cloak, Defiant's cloak is regular one.



"latest developments involve the use of carbon nanotubes to improve toughness even further.[citation needed] Commercially produced or researched ceramics for such type of armour include boron carbide, silicon carbide, aluminium oxide (sapphire or "alumina"), aluminium nitride, titanium boride and Syndie, a synthetic diamond composite. "

Density of nickel is 8.912 g/cm^3. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm^3. Density of materials used in cobham armor is 2.52, 3.21, ~4, 3.26, 4.52 and 3.52 grams per cubic centimeter. So you are utterly wrong. Or deliberately lying.



Never shown in use on Death Star. And particle shields are physical barrier too (just logic), so interphase cloak can be used to bypass them.



Misquote, misinterpretation and direct lie in one. Just when I thought you could not get any "better".



Beacouse these scales and capabilities are completely made up by your little community.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 11:22am 

No, because they are a logical conclusion based on what is presented in the EU.
For crying out loud read the main site, and it has been discussed to death here anyway.

The calculations are all there for you to see and check if you don't believe it.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 12:33pm 

If the Death Star was (semi-)powered down and otherwise did not defend itself (i.e. essentially a controlled demolition project) then yes, the Federation would probably be able to destroy it. I don't doubt they'd have to devote a nontrivial amount of resources to that end, and it would be silly as all hell to do so, but they could conceivably destabilize it by altering its distribution of volume, weaken it by ruining its structural gravity generators, and so on. But if they somehow found an abandoned Death Star, this would be an incredibly stupid and self-defeating thing to do.

Imagine, for a moment, that Naval Station North Island in San Diego was sent back in time to the year 0 BC. Imagine it turning up - minus the residents - inside the territory of a significant power (say, Byzantium). Even if the scientists of that city-state only comprehended a bare fraction of the technology they'd find, even if much of it was damaged beyond repair, it would still be a coup undreamed of. This still pales in comparison to what a partially intact Death Star would mean for Federation scientists.


But the Federation fighting an operational Death Star?

No. There's literally no way. Phase cloak nonsense aside, the thing is just too big and too decentralized for anything other than an enemy of equal power to affect it. You would have to possess detailed blueprints of the DS to have any shot at sabotaging it the way the Rebels did, and even if you had that, you'd need indepth knowledge of SW technology to suss out the particulars of the weak spot. The Federation has neither.

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 12:35pm 

Except that it was never stated to be an exhaust port and it is stated that they where replaced with millions of millimeter size heat exchangers. So, how does the "tunnel" we see equal a millimeter is size?


I should not have to say this but 50% success rate does not equal a working item, it has worst odds than playing Russian roulette. It should be added that the Enterprise use the device for only a few minutes at most, the defect that killed the crew might take only slightly more than that to happen.


Pity that is not what you said, you did say that he used a Romulan phase cloak.

Like you always do instead of admitting an honest mistake you stupidly plow ahead and blame others for the mistake. Maybe you should take the time to understand what is being said before you blunder through it and then deny everything.




No this is again a complete lack of understanding on your part. Asteroids are not "pure" metal a nickel iron core would not be a solid slab of nickel and iron.


It shows here that they are mostly "rock" not metal.



But it is used on the Second Death Star. Particle shields are not made of "particles" they are used to repel matter, such as missiles, torpedoes, or ships.



Considering that the main site provided more proof than you have given about anything you are the one guilty of "making up capabilities". To you the only proof you need to give "It is canon".

 Post subject: Re: Can Federation destroy Death Stars

Posted: 2010-11-08 12:57pm 

Current variants of chobham use depleted uranium (M1) or tungsten (Challenger 2) along with the standard ceramic and wire mesh. Ironically, this is stated on the same Wikipedia page you quoted. So, not only are you ignoring evidence, you're cherry-picking your own sources.