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 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 04:36pm 

Spectre of the Past suggests a reason why both might be accurate - range limitations. There, a Chiss ship buzzed the Errant Venture, ducked behind the command tower to put it out of line-of-sight of other ship's sensors, and jumped. The discussion that followed aboard the EV included the statement that ships could be tracked for a few microseconds after entering hyperspace. This suggests to me that they can be physically tracked, but you've got to be quick to jump to lightspeed after them otherwise they'll be out of range, can change course, and poof - gone.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 04:42pm 

It's possible, although unlikely, that he dropped to sublight briefly to check. The EU is ridiculously harsh on this; it often acts like ships in hyperspace can't be tracked at all, even though they blatantly can in the movies.



Even in the EU, ISDs have FTL 'subspace' sensors so it seems almost impossible that they couldn't track a warp ship (where warp drive is acknowledged to produce a massive signature unless the ship is cloak-capable and fitted with 'nullifier cores'). What you are proposing is just a slightly longer range version of the 'Picard maneuver', assuming they're closing to a range where phaser fire is useful, and it might work once or twice at best before Imperial gunners adjust their targeting parameters. This is why I said 'wide orbits', since the Imperials have FTL sensors but not have FTL weapons. Trek ships aren't terribly maneuverable in warp, but at hundreds of c it only takes a tiny course change to dodge slower-than-light TL bolts.

Actually I recall that my very first post to this site was asking whether photon torpedoes would be a useful innovation if fitted with the warheads from SW missiles. The reason being that at ~1000c they are much, much harder for point defence to shoot down - and the relative ease of shooting down normal missiles may be a major reason for their scarcity in SW fleet engagements. The main problem with that, other than being speculative in general, is that we AFAIK don't have any examples of Trek PT accelerating to FTL on their own - in fact the TNG tech manual claims they cannot do so. If so, one could make one reasonable, albeit highly specialised claim for how warp drive could be useful in the SW universe; a warp-equipped 'missile frigate'. It would use exactly the tactic I describe above - orbiting at high warp at standoff range from the enemy fleet, releasing clouds of PT-equivalents with decent warheads. Obviously this is something that could only work as a support ship for proper capships, but it sounds like something that Imperial R&D might build a few examples of, to try out the concept.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 04:50pm 

For a few microseconds after they jumped yet in ANH the Imperials where apparently able to not only tell in which direction the Falcon was going as it initially jumped but actually TRAIL him for a time. You're NOT going to follow a ship into a jump on that short a notice.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 04:59pm 

A human couldn't - but a computer probably could. Pursue the ship trying to grab it with a tractor, but set the computers to automatically jump the ship after the Falcon if it jumps, matching its course.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 05:03pm 

And he could be talking out his ass again. Even if he isn't, tracking in hyperspace isn't necessarily the same as tracking a trek ship at warp.

Hyperspace exists in Trek, though nobody knows how to use it (some DS9 episode mentioned it) but they do know that it was insanely faster than Warp drive. However, hyperspace =/= subspace and TNG Warp travel is part spacial wave compression and part submergence into the dimension known as subspace. While SW tech would have a reason to track in hyper, it wouldn't have a reason to track any other type of FLT transit methods unless someone had the tech to move at FTL speeds without using hyper. If we assume the imperials have a way of tracking an object at Warp (per EU as noted by someone else), then that assumption makes it more plausible that the backup FTL drive wouldn't be just a crappier hyperdrive. Heck, a class 10 hyperdrive may even work similar to Trekwarp in that it only pulls the ship partially out of normal space instead of fully out of normal space.

Now, as to why an imperial would want to capture a Federation vessel - mostly it would be intel. When a ISD first arrives in the Milky Way, it would most likely show up in butt-fuck nowhere (assuming the wormhole connection). Having no nav charts for hyper, the Imps would have to take their time starmapping, probably going from system to system to get various readings, etc. Capturing a Federation vessel they run across and ripping the data would be quicker (Fed tech seems compatible with nigh-everything, even when they say it isn't), even if the tech staff has to get creative. Oh, and sometimes you want prisoners. As Starfleet sends ships to explore & such, the likelyhood of running into one is greater than randomly stumbling across an inhabited world or starbase that has the info needed.

If the Imp-in-charge is competent, he'll talk the first federation vessel he meets into face-to-face negotiations and get them to dock. Then he orders a boarding action and Stormtroopers easily overwhelm the crew. If the Imp-in-charge lacks subtly or creativity to act on such a situation, then you have a problem with Imp tech easily overwhelming fed tech and it takes them a few tries to figure out just how far they need to tone things down in order to accomplish the mission.



Yet a TNG episode had someone aboard a probe the size of a PT that was able to travel at Warp 9. Voyager (yes, I know, referencing VOY is bad, but in this case it isn't completely stupid) had to deal with warp-capable missiles smaller than a PT. What with the Phoenix (First Contact) being a modded nuclear missile, it is probably one of those things that can be done, should be done, but nobody in trek is militarily competent enough to think of it.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 05:37pm 

SW has subspace comms and sensors. They are detailed in The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology and The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels.



Completely unfounded. There is no indication in any SW source of hyperspace being anything other than a binary transition. The 'conversion to tacyhons' explanation in particular has no concept of a 'partial transition'.



Capturing a starbase would be quicker and easier still, though with good automated data analysis they wouldn't even have to do that; they could just monitor the subspace comm network and pull pretty much any public, commonly used data out. If the Federation isn't aware of the threat yet, it's even easier.



Irrelevant. The probe was based on a PT casing and could easily have been launched from a ship that was already at warp (in accordance with the TNG tech manual claims).



When?



That was the size of a large shuttle. Obviously warp shuttles exist, though they're usually limited to low warp. A PT has 1000 times less volume.



It has been done; the Cardassian dreadnought weapon, a large, expensive strategic missile. That would not be a practical or economical weapon to use for general fleet engagements.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 06:42pm 

Fair enough.


Wait, what? As I understand it, Hyperdrive involves dimentional transition where you pop-out of this dimension then pop back in at another location. Never heard of tacyhons being involved.


Again, it's a matter of finding it. And, uh, not accidentally blowing the snot out of it. Accidentally running across civilian transmission network would be easier, or finding a subspace relay to jack. While logical, though, it seems against typical Imperial M.O. Of course, if you have someone from Military Intelligence of a decent rank on board able to convince the commander that it's a good idea, that would work. Imp commanders typically seem to like to take immediate and destructive action.

On Warp Missiles:
Voyager Episode: It was the one where Doc wanted to salvage a missile's AI rather than toast it as it was sentient, even though the sucker just wanted to blow up it's target (and wipe out a group of people on one side of an ancient war that was no longer going on).

Cardassians: Great back stabbing badguys who were technologically retarded.

Warp Missile: So just take the engines from a warp-capable shuttle and put a bigger warhead on it. Considering all the bullshit Feddie Engineers figure out on a consistent basis, this shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Or just a solid weight of high-density material to serve as a sort of warp bullet.

BTW, per Ex Astris Scientia the technical manuals are known to contain lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 06:53pm 

Err yes it is. Tracking Wars ships under hyperdrive means tracking ships going FTL in real space. Tracking ships under Warp means-tracking ships going FTL in real space, only a hell of a lot slower.

Erm-hyperspace as an alternate dimension is no longer part of Wars continuity. It's merely realspace as seen from a FTL perspective.

I don't recall Warp drive ever being described that way. Ships under Warp travel FTL in realspace by cheating.

As both Wars and Trek travel FTL in realspace both have that technology by default.

Err-how so?

Um-neither does.

A lot of that can be done with simple optical telescopes you know.

Which can easily be done STL.

Which was launched at a base velocity that was-never stated.

Which has what exactly to do with PTs being independently Warp capable?

You DO remember the Phoenix was considerably LARGER than a photon torpedo, which apparently are roughly the size of a coffin.
Nobody's saying Warp missiles are impossible. Photon torpedoes however are NOT.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 06:59pm 

For all we know, they could simply accelerate the torpedoes to a high speed using equipment installed on the ship - the missile would only need a maneuvering drive after that. Which seems to be supported by the slow turning rates, and the fact that it starts out at a high speed (tough there might be some acceleration, not sure about that.)

And it would safe a lot of space and money, too.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 07:06pm 

Actually the Imperials aren't that destructive given that more times then not they have taken a path to conquer, not mindlessly destroy.

Also...problems of warp missile? Expense. As Starglider pointed out, the Cardassian missle gave one a clear idea of how much is needed to push something like that along and the ST powers don't have that material to fling around just to see what would happen.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 07:43pm 

Hyperspace: whoot - retcons. I didn't know about that particular one - then again, I've read very little EU stuff outside the Thrawn trilogy and that was years ago. Wookipedia is pretty vague on hyperspace being another dimension or not (looked it up right before this post). So due to EU conflicts with Hyperspace, I'll just go with old school dimensional hopping as it fits with Trek's definition of hyperspace.

Oh, wait, this helps my argument (sort of). Since Hyperspace is just normal space as viewed at FLT, an ISD should be able to slow down just enough to engage Federation vessels at their own speed.

ST Warp: More info than you'd ever want to know: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/warp.htm. And no, subspace submersion doesn't make much sense, but it's official trektech.

Warp-capable torpedo: Torpedoes already can be fired while in warp and maintain relative velocity to a certain extent. The problem is that either way, they are relatively short ranged. I have a hard time believing that it's impossible or impractical to extend it. Rather, it seems like it is just one of those things that nobody has thought of for some reason.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-28 10:06pm 

In the face of of Wars hyperspace NOT being that,

Err-why? Them moving FTL in realspace as opposed to some alternate dimension or other doesn't mean they can do so at arbitrarily slow OR fast speeds. It just means they CAN.

As evidenced by-what,exactly? Ex Astris Scientia is NOT canon.

The operative term being RELATIVE velocity.
It isn't, as evidenced by the Warp-capable missiles you yourself mentioned earlier. That doesn't mean it's actually worth the effort.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-29 05:00am 

Actually, I believe that line from the AotC: ICS was retconned out again in the CCS. There is also the matter of the WEG sourcebooks, which had "Other Space" or some similar parallel universe that was accessed through hyperdrive. As it stands, the nature of hyperdrive travel does appear to have at least some extra-dimensional component.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-29 10:12am 

Doesn't mean they can't. Any evidence that a hyperdrive can't go slower than it's rating?

This portion of the article on Ex Astris does reference a lot of TNG stuff - they just don't cite the sources like they should. The Warp factor chart is from either pre-production or one of the tech books, and a lot of the other info on subspace I remember seeing in a number of TNG episodes.

If the dimensional aspect is completely removed from hyperspace travel, I don't see any reason technological why a SW ship couldn't just slow down to chase a trek vessel. If the dimensional aspect is mixed in the way it is with trek, then hyperspace travel equates to the next step above quantum slipstream and should be able to be slowed down to ST:tech levels when they need it. If it is old school dimensional popping out and back in, that would be closer to rendering my argument bunk.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-29 03:55pm 

@Darth Hoth:Thanks, I didn't know that.

YOU claim they can, YOU provide the evidence. Besides, hyperdrive ratings (if the chart and measurements provided by Chokula are accurate) are wildly at odds with the speeds evidenced in the movies (as are some of the actual quantified speeds in the EU) and thus are of dubious reliability at best.

No Warp factor chart was to my knowledge EVER presented on the actual SHOW and the incidents of Warp factors being associated with an actual quantified speed are far and few between.

So you're a hyperdrive engineer now? Given that we have NO CLUE how hyperdrive technology works there might be OODLES of technological reasons why they can't.
Leaving alone the pointlessness of chasing down Trek ships to begin with (which Mike and others have already explained), we already KNOW Wars hyperdrive CAN'T be dialed down arbitrarily far, else fleet cohesion during jumps would be a nonissue. (I don't have the actual quote handy but in TTT Palleon muses that the reason fleets tend to jump to the outer system of a target rather than directly on top of it is
so the ships have time to reorganize because minusucule differences in the cycle time of the stardrive ALONE can scatter the fleet all over space. Hardly an issue if you can just ease on the pedal arbitrarily far).
We KNOW you can use Warp to go pretty much any speed STL to maximum Warp. We know no such thing for Wars hyperdrive.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 03:14am 

Actually IIRC Pellaeon indicates that fleets don't routinely meet just outside of a system because it is easy to get lost, and that he had and arguement with Thrawn over Thrawn's practice of doing so.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 07:35am 

You know, there is real life precedent for a technology that acts exactly like that. That is, a method of propulsion that only works at high speed and doesn't have a lower gear, so to speak: a ramjet. I majored in Mechanical rather than Aerospace engineering but I do recall from my classes that ramjets do not work at subsonic speeds. They require supersonic airflow at the inlet to function as a ramjet. The result is that designers had to create a dual function engine. I don't remember the details on exactly how they did it, but the end result was a jet engine that worked as a standard jet at subsonic speeds and as a ramjet once the aircraft reached suitable speeds.

In fact, they used an engine like that on the SR-71 and part of the design of the aircraft was such that when it was traveling at high speed the supersonic shockwave coming off the nose lined up with the air intakes of the engines. Or so said my Fluid Mechanics professor.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 08:57am 

Your memory is broken. The first ramjet powered aircraft was strictly subsonic. Ramjet-powered helicopters have been built; I assume you remember that helicopter rotor blades need to stay subsonic?

There is a starship drive concept called a Bussard Ramjet that needs high forward speed for 'compression' of ambient fuel/reaction mass, but there is no reason to believe hyperdrive is anything like that - it uses onboard fuel only.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 09:09am 

Well, shit. I guess he was being more specific that I realized.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 10:04am 

Then take somethinge easier: the 4 stroke internal combustion engine. Its optimal rpm range is rather narrow: for a typical engine in a contemporary car it ranges from high hundreds to low thousands rpm. That´s why there is the gearbox there, otherwise it would be difficult to drive in the city and in the highway with the same car.

Of course it has nothing to do with the hyperdrive, but real life engines have a certain domain of optimal operation, and since an upper limit certainly exist for any hyperdrive it is not that irrealistic that a lower one exists also.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 02:19pm 

I'm sick of the word "dimension" being used in sci-fi as a catchall excuse to explain away anything they can't bother to properly define, which is exactly how it's used by most authors. Take the "alternate dimension" of hyperspace and this stupid "mass shadow" bullshit. It's so goddamned idiotic that the person who thought of it should be flogged for public stupidity. Do these imbeciles even understand what "dimension" means? If there's another dimension and we can move around in it, we wouldn't fly through a star: we'd fly over it.

Take the analogy of going from two dimensional travel (ie- surface travel) to three-dimensional travel (air travel). In a plane, you simply fly over obstacles such as hills, buildings, and mountains. Mind you, you still must travel the same distance, so one objection immediately comes to mind: you have not necessarily shortened your travel distance at all, so the use of a fourth dimension (other than time) does not automatically allow you to go FTL. Not unless this other dimension is very strangely connected to ours, thus allowing you to use it like wormhole travel (which would obviously not require you to worry about flying through stars).

PS. It's worth noting that tachyonic travel does in fact require the use of another dimension anyway, ie- the complex number domain. Complex numbers exist perpendicular to real numbers. There is no telling how this would translate into reality (apart from the most obvious answer which is that they're simply impossible).

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 05:04pm 

Galaxy Guide three for TESB covered the transit to Bespin. Basically it can be summed up the following:

- Han's tinkering with the Falcon screwed up the hyperdrive in some ways (Which was always finicky sas it is). It wasn't even conected reictly to the hyperdrive system nor to the Nav computer (and was described as an "old" model on top of that). And Han managed to damage it during his escape with the Avenger (but not critically), so that was further playing against it. Nevermind it was described as "painfully slow" to begin with.

The end result was that the Falcon could only make FTL jumps for "several hours", and needed course calculations made by hand. Solo only risked it for "short" hyprespace skips and that most of the travel was done at sublight speed (hence why Fett was said to be able to easily track the Falcon.)

Without knowing the exact distance we can't really determine how fast the thing moves. Its not like it needs to move ALL that fast anyhow - the whole point of a Backup hyperdrive is that it simply gets you to the nearest place where you can hopefully fix the main one - it doesn't need to be al that big, fast, or precise - it just needs to get you a short distance sompelace so you don't die of old age. (I once had a car that had an emergency tire that served a similar purpose.)

We basically know shit all about bakcup hyperdrives to really judge their usefulness in a combat situation, but for their purpose they really dont need to be all that fast or powerful, nor would you really expect them to be used in that way. They're a fucking emergency device. If you wanted that capability you're better off either equipping a ship with a hyperdrive that's slower. BEsides, some sources (EG the Lando Calrissian novels) mention hyperdrives being able to change their velocity as it is (which is pretty much required given the variable velocities.) so it seems eminently possible to "accelerate" in hyperspace (you need to manuver anyhow...) I think I discussed the tactical uses of hyperdrive somewhere else anyhow, you dont need to "chase" an enemy anyways (at least as long as you have sensor ability to track them.) There's no reason a hyperdrive couldn't pull a hit and run FTL against enemies either (you just might need to hyper out a greater distance to do it.)

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-30 05:44pm 

Right, well, I think I'm going to throw in the towel on this - not because I don't think that it wouldn't be an interesting idea, but rather I'm too lazy to type out a lengthy discourse addressing a number of the things posted. Han poking at the hyperdrive (backup or regular) to coax it to Bespin makes sense in context of the movie (much like coaxing a car that keeps stalling).

BTW, I think the confusion over dimensions comes from it as a word that describes both "Alternate Reality" and "component of reality (length, width, depth, time, etc). Explanations to simple non-math people like me of certain aspects of string or quantum theory don't really help matters. Although, aren't there theories that gravity is a force that exists pan-dimensionally? Would a hyperdrive need to circumnavigate that along with the aspect of relativity that prevents FTL travel?

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-31 12:26am 

The biggest argument in favour of the "backup hyperdrive" is from TPM: we've seen how big a hyperdrive unit is, even for a rather large vehicle like Amidala's blackbird, and it's shockingly small. It's like the size of a large plasma TV, which makes it more feasible for Han to be carrying a backup unit. However, it begs the question of why he never even mentioned the possibility, since a fully functional backup unit should be just as fast as the regular unit (indeed, one must wonder why the backup hyperdrive should be inferior in any way to the regular one if the damned things are so small). But of course, Han being Han, he would have used it years ago, and freed up the space so he could store more contraband.


Even if gravity extended into this other dimension, so what? All you have to do is move farther into the dimension, and you avoid it. It's like avoiding a tall mountain by simply flying higher. The real problem is that it doesn't cut your traveling distance at all, especially since EU hyperdrive is defined as coterminous with realspace at all points. This means that hyperspace does not solve the problem of FTL travel at all. It would be more useful for avoiding detours in flight, ie- allowing you to make a straight flight despite obstacles, much like an aircraft can fly in a straight line from point A to B while a car must travel a winding road.

Hyperspace as defined in most of the EU is literally written as a meaningless escape clause from reality, which is a habitual behaviour among idiot sci-fi authors.

The whole thing could be retconned by saying that both statements are true: the ship must go tachyonic in order to travel at such great speeds, and hyperspace actually refers to the complex-number regime where the ships push most of themselves when they go tachyonic. However, the remaining real-space component and the limited submersion into hyperspace still means they can't go through extremely dangerous phenomena such as suns or black holes, although they might be able to pass through something like the Alderaan debris field without damage.

 Post subject: Re: Emergency Backup FTL

Posted: 2009-10-31 09:08am 

Cost. Hyperdrives seem to be really expensive.