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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

Underbelly interactions between the two.

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FaxModem1
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 08:38am 

Sith Marauder


Joined: 2002-10-30 07:40pm
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Location: In a dark reflection of a better world
Ok, Empire conquers the Alpha quadrant, Republic makes diplomatic contact with the UFP, whatever. What would happen with both sides underbellies?

First off, which is more corrupt?(Course, are we talking about the Old Republic, the Empire, the New Republic, etc.)

Second, what new laws would each side have to put in effect regarding all the more 'interesting' items each side of the galaxy has.(Spice, tribbles, what have you.)

Third, would there be mob wars for the new territory and old guards of the Alpha Quadrant having to fight off the much tougher competition?

I personally would love to see what kind of problems this would cause for people like Odo and Worf when dealing with Imperial goods and such.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 09:54am 

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Being an essentially Communist system, the Federation would almost have to be more corrupt by definition, though the Old Republic could probably give them a good run for their money. The Empire and the New Republic had their problems, but at least attempted to rein in the corruption.
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Lord Revan
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 11:12am 

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well with Republic it depends wildly on the time period, at last years(or decades?), during the PT that is the Galactic Republic was essentially crippled by massive corruption. Galactic Empire and the New Republic has less corruption but that's not saying alot.

with Trek we have a problem of lack of accurate data (no pun intended), we know there's some sort of black market, the extent of it or the corruption within the goverment is not shown.
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 02:46pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
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Ignoring Hoth's unsupported "it is more corrupt because it has to be more corrupt!" bullshit, the obvious answer here is that SW in any time period features vastly more corruption and failings than we see in the entirety of Star Trek.

In terms of laws, while there would be some vice and containment laws, you would see more the corrupt groups from Wars trying to influence the governments of Trek into limiting or restricting the exporting of certain products (and the same in their home governments) to essentially corner the market for exploitation through other means, as they did in SW.

Mob wars between the universes would basically be non existent due to the tech and resources gap. Single corporate entities in SW could roll through the major A/B Quadrant powers without even noticing it, a few criminals are going to disappear like a fart in a tornado if they try to go against them.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 03:53pm 

Sith Marauder


Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
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Location: Victoria, Canada
Darth Hoth wrote:
Being an essentially Communist system, the Federation would almost have to be more corrupt by definition, though the Old Republic could probably give them a good run for their money. The Empire and the New Republic had their problems, but at least attempted to rein in the corruption.


They gave the Hutts more or less free reign in the Outer Rim so long as the didn't cause the Empire trouble as far as I can tell, the Emperor had a lot of dealings with that crime lord (can't remember his name) who hated Vader and helped build the Death Star, the Empire used slave labor frequently (weather or not this was in violation of thier own laws). I'd say that as long as the corruption didn't interfere with the agenda of the Imperial government, or was carried out by loyal Imperial henchmen, the Empire was happy to look the other way, or even actively support it.

At the very least, you could give evidence for your assertion. And no, "its communist so it must be more corrupt" isn't going to count.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 04:04pm 

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The Federation has abolished the official monetary economy. You do not need to be an economist or psychologist to tell that this will create a large underground barter economy. Trade is part of human nature; it simply moves out of sight when it is not allowed to prosper legally, so outlawing it is inviting crime and corruption in. Is there anyone here who knows what the Soviet Union was like? And they were not nearly as economically repressive as the TNG-onwards Federation is. Ender's interpretation is not supported by any comparable real life model.
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 04:55pm 

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Darth Hoth wrote:
The Federation has abolished the official monetary economy. You do not need to be an economist or psychologist to tell that this will create a large underground barter economy. Trade is part of human nature; it simply moves out of sight when it is not allowed to prosper legally, so outlawing it is inviting crime and corruption in. Is there anyone here who knows what the Soviet Union was like? And they were not nearly as economically repressive as the TNG-onwards Federation is. Ender's interpretation is not supported by any comparable real life model.


It is true because Hoth says it is true. Evidence is irrelevant and will be ignored so that he can keep his happy little self delusion. Despite the fact we see next to nothing of corruption and what we do see is at a level lower than what we see today on the headline news, it must be true because he says it so. Hoth's interpretation isn't supported by anything we see, but we will ignore that.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 05:37pm 

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Either we have

a) A society supposedly consisting of human beings that defies every known law and precedent of human sociology and economics by successfully implementing an anti-market, halfway non-monetary collectivist economic model without suffering gross corruption

or we have

b) A society that does follow known human sociological patterns and does develop corruption as a consequence of its flawed economic system but chooses not to show its black market in the television shows.

Ender would have it that option a is the more reasonable one.
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 06:28pm 

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Darth Hoth wrote:
Either we have

a) A society supposedly consisting of human beings that defies every known law and precedent of human sociology and economics by successfully implementing an anti-market, halfway non-monetary collectivist economic model without suffering gross corruption

or we have

b) A society that does follow known human sociological patterns and does develop corruption as a consequence of its flawed economic system but chooses not to show its black market in the television shows.

Ender would have it that option a is the more reasonable one.

No, Ender would have you show your non existent proof that the Federation is more corrupt than the institutions we have seen in SW. You of course won't do that because you don't have it, hence why you are claiming that A automatically must mean B, despite the fact that we see B is false. This is real simple dumbshit - you have made the hypothesis that the economic system employed by one member of the Federation (notably not all of it) is intrinsically flawed in such a manner that it will result in the rampant corruption you claim exist. Confirmation of this hypothesis would be continual demonstrations of rampant corruption. Which you don't have, not only because it doesn't exist, but because as always you are just parroting your betters, in this case Mike.

Put up or shut up Hoth. Post the clips/screencaps/transcripts/audioclips/any media I haven't listed that shows that the Federation suffers more rampant corruption than the Old Republic, Empire, or New Republic have demonstrated themselves to be riddled with.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 06:42pm 

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Ender wrote:
No, Ender would have you show your non existent proof that the Federation is more corrupt than the institutions we have seen in SW.


I reiterate: Do we assume that the people of the Federation are human? If so, we should logically reason that they are subject to human psychology and sociology unless otherwise demonstrated. Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, and if you can prove why Communism would work any better for them than it has for us, please do so. Otherwise, we assume that a system that produces gross corruption on Earth also does so in space.

Quote:
You of course won't do that because you don't have it. And you don't have it because as always you are just parroting your betters, in this case Mike.


Did he say that?

Surprise for you, much as you would like it otherwise I am no "parrot". Then again, with the memory you have demonstrated before (how was it with Ulic Qel-Droma and the Republic fleet again? How about the bugs in SST with their rayguns that could {according to you} cook an MI inside his suit?) you obviously misremembered my name and confused me with someone else.

Quote:
Put up or shut up Hoth. Post the clips/screencaps/transcripts/audioclips/any media I haven't listed that shows that the Federation suffers more rampant corruption than the Old Republic, Empire, or New Republic have demonstrated themselves to be riddled with.


The implicit evidence is in the economic system the Federation employs. Why do we assume an economic system that has always been a disaster on Earth works magically just because we do not see its downsides demonstrated in the series (which usually focus on military vessels far from the Federation's hub)?
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 07:07pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
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Darth Hoth wrote:
I reiterate: Do we assume that the people of the Federation are human? If so, we should logically reason that they are subject to human psychology and sociology unless otherwise demonstrated. Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, and if you can prove why Communism would work any better for them than it has for us, please do so. Otherwise, we assume that a system that produces gross corruption on Earth also does so in space.
So no, no proof. Gotcha.

Quote:
Did he say that?
Wow, you are really trying to pass this off as your own line of thought? You really are a dishonest little shit, aren't you? Mike's page that you are trying to claim you are completely unaware of. You know, the one that has been up for the past 9 years.

Quote:
Surprise for you, much as you would like it otherwise I am no "parrot". Then again, with the memory you have demonstrated before (how was it with Ulic Qel-Droma and the Republic fleet again? How about the bugs in SST with their rayguns that could {according to you} cook an MI inside his suit?) you obviously misremembered my name and confused me with someone else.
Trying to pass off stuff from Mike's page as your own line of thought, your continual trying to ape Publius that last time you ran off... nope, it's you. And if I have misremembered a few incidents, that hardly compares with your outright dishonesty demonstrated here and other threads.

Quote:
The implicit evidence is in the economic system the Federation employs. Why do we assume an economic system that has always been a disaster on Earth works magically just because we do not see its downsides demonstrated in the series (which usually focus on military vessels far from the Federation's hub)?
Gosh, why do I assume a system for which we have no evidence of failing on the same scale as an entity that can't prevent hundreds of cases of open warfare among its own member states, allows corporations to rule large sections of space, has overt criminals in the ruling body, is completely infiltrated by hostile powers, and can host multiple programs of genocide, slavery, and institutionalized war crimes and crimes against humanity.

This is really simple bitch. Post your fucking proof. This should be nothing exceptional to you, it is one of the fundamental rules here. So quit whining about how A obviously means B in the face of the fact that there is no hard and fast law dictating such and no evidence B is true, and provide it. Or is this going to be another case you your refusing to do so, getting the thread flushed, and running off without conceding anything?
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Isolder74
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 07:14pm 

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The only thing we have of evidence of a Federation Black market is in the TOS movies. One example is Romulon Ale that is illegal but everyone seems to have tons of. The other is in Star trek 3 when McCoy tries to hire a ship to get to Genesis.

Not sure what this is suppose to prove however.
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 07:21pm 

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Isolder74 wrote:
The only thing we have of evidence of a Federation Black market is in the TOS movies. One example is Romulon Ale that is illegal but everyone seems to have tons of. The other is in Star trek 3 when McCoy tries to hire a ship to get to Genesis.

Not sure what this is suppose to prove however.

Apparently buying a black market beer is worse than occupying and killing half the population of a planet. I smoke Cuban cigars on occasion, perhaps Hoth will explain how many megadeaths that works out to.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 08:03pm 

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Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
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Isolder74 wrote:
The only thing we have of evidence of a Federation Black market is in the TOS movies. One example is Romulon Ale that is illegal but everyone seems to have tons of. The other is in Star trek 3 when McCoy tries to hire a ship to get to Genesis.

Not sure what this is suppose to prove however.


And wasn't that before the Federation was totally without currency, as well?
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Isolder74
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 08:08pm 

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
The only thing we have of evidence of a Federation Black market is in the TOS movies. One example is Romulon Ale that is illegal but everyone seems to have tons of. The other is in Star trek 3 when McCoy tries to hire a ship to get to Genesis.

Not sure what this is suppose to prove however.


And wasn't that before the Federation was totally without currency, as well?


perhaps, McCoy does mention money in STIII. Scotty mentions buying a boat as well in STVI but how isn't mentioned. We don't have enough information to make a call either way. Considering Kirk's no money statement in STiV(of course even if the Federation had currency it would be worth nothing in '80's San Francisco), it's hard to say but not once do we get the TNG bettering themselves speeches in TOS either.
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-20 08:21pm 

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Isolder74 wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
The only thing we have of evidence of a Federation Black market is in the TOS movies. One example is Romulon Ale that is illegal but everyone seems to have tons of. The other is in Star trek 3 when McCoy tries to hire a ship to get to Genesis.

Not sure what this is suppose to prove however.


And wasn't that before the Federation was totally without currency, as well?


perhaps, McCoy does mention money in STIII. Scotty mentions buying a boat as well in STVI but how isn't mentioned. We don't have enough information to make a call either way. Considering Kirk's no money statement in STiV(of course even if the Federation had currency it would be worth nothing in '80's San Francisco), it's hard to say but not once do we get the TNG bettering themselves speeches in TOS either.

I recall a big thread in PST at one point where it was eventually determined that while Earth was communist, the rest of the federation was not, or at least that each member world set its own economic policy. However I think it was Bounty and Ted C and such that did mot of the discussing in there, it isn't my work so I'm not real familiar with it beyond the conclusions.
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2009-03-21 03:26am 

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Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
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Well, I know they have "latinum" on DS9, which seems to be used as currency. I can't comment on the rest of the Federation.
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Starglider
PostPosted: 2009-03-21 03:53am 

Miles Dyson


Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
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Location: Isle of Dogs
Darth Hoth wrote:
I reiterate: Do we assume that the people of the Federation are human? If so, we should logically reason that they are subject to human psychology and sociology unless otherwise demonstrated.


One can easily imagine the Federation having access to brainwashing and conditioning techniques vastly in advance of contemporary communist countries; we saw some of this in TOS : Whom Gods Destroy. Furthermore they have advanced and pervasive sensor and AI technology that would makes it easy for them to keep their entire population under close surveillence. I find the hypothesis that the Federation uses these in combination to keep their population in compliance with their ideology more likely than massive systemic corruption being carefully hidden from viewers throughout the entire run of TNG and DS9.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-21 06:55am 

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Joined: 2008-02-15 10:36am
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Ender wrote:
Wow, you are really trying to pass this off as your own line of thought? You really are a dishonest little shit, aren't you? Mike's page that you are trying to claim you are completely unaware of. You know, the one that has been up for the past 9 years.


I have seen the page in the index and skimmed it, but never read it it any detail. I came independently to the conclusion that the Federation is Communist from analyzing what I know of the evidence long before I was aware of this site (I had, in fact, not known about this place for very long at all before I joined last year), and I assert independently that with Communism follows corruption, since that is what all the available evidence from real life suggests (A quick read-through of that page does not seem to make that particular point).

I realise that there is no way I can prove my honest intentions. I also think I should not have to, since you are the one making baseless accusations.

Quote:
Trying to pass off stuff from Mike's page as your own line of thought, your continual trying to ape Publius that last time you ran off... nope, it's you. And if I have misremembered a few incidents, that hardly compares with your outright dishonesty demonstrated here and other threads.


You may believe what you like; it is not like you are someone whose opinion about me I am inclined to care about. And I shall repeat what I said last time: It is ridiculous that I should have to somehow "prove" that my arguments were not all taken from Publius. God, did it look like I copy-pasted him? I admit to assuming a style that would be reminiscent of his, and I did include some of his analysis from Domus Publica in my arguments there (is that a crime, now?).

You throw around accusations of "dishonesty" that I cannot defend myself against, and declare an autowin on your part.

Quote:
Gosh, why do I assume a system for which we have no evidence of failing on the same scale as an entity that can't prevent hundreds of cases of open warfare among its own member states, allows corporations to rule large sections of space, has overt criminals in the ruling body, is completely infiltrated by hostile powers, and can host multiple programs of genocide, slavery, and institutionalized war crimes and crimes against humanity.

This is really simple bitch. Post your fucking proof. This should be nothing exceptional to you, it is one of the fundamental rules here. So quit whining about how A obviously means B in the face of the fact that there is no hard and fast law dictating such and no evidence B is true, and provide it. Or is this going to be another case you your refusing to do so, getting the thread flushed, and running off without conceding anything?


I have no direct evidence. I also think it is totally unrealistic to assume that human nature does not apply to the Federation just because of Roddenberry's retarded leftist-utopian writing and author's fiat, and a stupid standard to accept it at face value. But fine, if those are the standards, I suppose I shall have to concede the argument.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-21 06:56am 

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Starglider wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
I reiterate: Do we assume that the people of the Federation are human? If so, we should logically reason that they are subject to human psychology and sociology unless otherwise demonstrated.


One can easily imagine the Federation having access to brainwashing and conditioning techniques vastly in advance of contemporary communist countries; we saw some of this in TOS : Whom Gods Destroy. Furthermore they have advanced and pervasive sensor and AI technology that would makes it easy for them to keep their entire population under close surveillence. I find the hypothesis that the Federation uses these in combination to keep their population in compliance with their ideology more likely than massive systemic corruption being carefully hidden from viewers throughout the entire run of TNG and DS9.


This model would also work. I suppose it is probably the more reasonable one, then.
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Ender
PostPosted: 2009-03-22 01:57am 

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Darth Hoth wrote:
I have seen the page in the index and skimmed it, but never read it it any detail. I came independently to the conclusion that the Federation is Communist from analyzing what I know of the evidence long before I was aware of this site (I had, in fact, not known about this place for very long at all before I joined last year), and I assert independently that with Communism follows corruption, since that is what all the available evidence from real life suggests (A quick read-through of that page does not seem to make that particular point).

I realise that there is no way I can prove my honest intentions. I also think I should not have to, since you are the one making baseless accusations.

Bullshit. The basis for the accusation and why you don't look to be within a mile of being honest are very simple:

"I evaluated the evidence, and came to this conclusion on my own."
"Well what evidence is that?"
"I don't know what evidence I looked at to come to my conclusion."

Gosh, and you wonder where the question comes in to play here. So you are claiming that YOU came up with this, not Mike, and ignoring the fact that your claims are a near straight life of those made here, in his fanfic, and in ASVS, you can't point to what led you to come to that analysis. Isolder is the one who pointed out the known incidents.

Which is it, did you come to the conclusion about the corruption in the UFP being horrendous by looking at the evidence (and if that is the case let us see it) or do you not have the evidence proving the rampant corruption you claim exists?

Quote:
You may believe what you like; it is not like you are someone whose opinion about me I am inclined to care about. And I shall repeat what I said last time: It is ridiculous that I should have to somehow "prove" that my arguments were not all taken from Publius. God, did it look like I copy-pasted him? I admit to assuming a style that would be reminiscent of his, and I did include some of his analysis from Domus Publica in my arguments there (is that a crime, now?).
Yes, it looked like you copy pasted him then and it looks like you are copy pasting Mike now. And yes, trying to pass off someone else's work as your own in a crime by board standards.

Quote:
You throw around accusations of "dishonesty" that I cannot defend myself against, and declare an autowin on your part.
How is demanding proof "declaring an autowin"? Are you seriously trying to paint my demanding you support your statements as unreasonable?

Quote:
I have no direct evidence. I also think it is totally unrealistic to assume that human nature does not apply to the Federation just because of Roddenberry's retarded leftist-utopian writing and author's fiat, and a stupid standard to accept it at face value. But fine, if those are the standards, I suppose I shall have to concede the argument.

Fuck off shit stain. The existence of a fucking FTL drive is retarded, exists by author's fiat, and shouldn't be accepted at face value. Same goes for artificial gravity, shields, phasers, etc. Funny that you don't complain about those. This "well I can't back anything I say but I am still right" bullshit is the most pathetic trick in your bag. Either man up and admit you pulled this out of your ass without the declaration that you are still right, or provide the fucking evidence.
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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2009-03-22 06:01am 

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Joined: 2008-02-15 10:36am
Posts: 2319
Ender wrote:
Bullshit. The basis for the accusation and why you don't look to be within a mile of being honest are very simple:

"I evaluated the evidence, and came to this conclusion on my own."
"Well what evidence is that?"
"I don't know what evidence I looked at to come to my conclusion."

Gosh, and you wonder where the question comes in to play here. So you are claiming that YOU came up with this, not Mike, and ignoring the fact that your claims are a near straight life of those made here, in his fanfic, and in ASVS, you can't point to what led you to come to that analysis. Isolder is the one who pointed out the known incidents.

Which is it, did you come to the conclusion about the corruption in the UFP being horrendous by looking at the evidence (and if that is the case let us see it) or do you not have the evidence proving the rampant corruption you claim exists?


This is getting ridiculous. I came to recognise the Federation as Communist because of its stated collectivism, utopianism and displayed lack of a traditional market economy (are those accepted, or do I have to quote individual films and episodes?), and extrapolated from that that since it was Communist, it must also be corrupt. I do not have direct evidence for massive corruption, just for their Communistic system. I was never a member of ASVS, and I had not read Conquest till some time after I joined last year (and again, did not notice this aspect being heavily preached there). Is it so incomprehensible to you that one might assume a society outright said to have abolished money to be Communist on one's own accord? I might have heard of concepts from here by second or third hand elsewhere on the 'Net, but that would be all, and if so I had no idea that they originated here. Was Mike first in all the world to propose the economic system that fits best with what we do know of the Federation?

Why I am I apparently on trial here? You continually misrepresent my position: I have not claimed to have direct evidence of corruption, I extrapolated from what we know of how Communist systems work in real life.

Quote:
Yes, it looked like you copy pasted him then and it looks like you are copy pasting Mike now. And yes, trying to pass off someone else's work as your own in a crime by board standards.


Then maybe you have a reading comprehension problem, because I did nothing of the sort. Go over the respective texts with a comparing programme if you like, if that is what it takes. The one thing I did copy directly from Domus Publica was some quotes from the ISB, since I did not have my own copy available, and I freely admit that. On certain points I also used arguments I found there, such as the detail of Leia and the interrogation 'droid, but always in my own words. Should I have put in a list of acknowledgements for where some ideas originally came from in a message board post?

Quote:
How is demanding proof "declaring an autowin"? Are you seriously trying to paint my demanding you support your statements as unreasonable?


No, I am painting your groundless fucking accusations of plagiarism as unreasonable.

Quote:
Fuck off shit stain. The existence of a fucking FTL drive is retarded, exists by author's fiat, and shouldn't be accepted at face value. Same goes for artificial gravity, shields, phasers, etc. Funny that you don't complain about those. This "well I can't back anything I say but I am still right" bullshit is the most pathetic trick in your bag. Either man up and admit you pulled this out of your ass without the declaration that you are still right, or provide the fucking evidence.


Tech and human nature is not the same thing, and it grinds me personally more when people are retardedly written than when tech is. But given how Starglider posited an interpretation that appears superior to mine, I have already backed down.
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Samuel
PostPosted: 2009-03-23 01:28pm 

Sith Marauder


Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am
Posts: 4750
While Star Wars has the Hutts, Star Trek has the Orions, who were essentially a slave running nation, as well as planets that are neo-barbarian. Given the size of Trek compared to Wars, it is probably more corrupt.

Of course, there isn't enough wealth to justify muscling into Trek- the area is too small and hazardous, with weird shit happening at regular intervals. They'd probably wait for the navy to clear out the galaxy before flooding in.

Starglider wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
I reiterate: Do we assume that the people of the Federation are human? If so, we should logically reason that they are subject to human psychology and sociology unless otherwise demonstrated.


One can easily imagine the Federation having access to brainwashing and conditioning techniques vastly in advance of contemporary communist countries; we saw some of this in TOS : Whom Gods Destroy. Furthermore they have advanced and pervasive sensor and AI technology that would makes it easy for them to keep their entire population under close surveillence. I find the hypothesis that the Federation uses these in combination to keep their population in compliance with their ideology more likely than massive systemic corruption being carefully hidden from viewers throughout the entire run of TNG and DS9.


... wow. So the most likely interpretation is Earth is a totalitarian state?
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ANGELUS
PostPosted: 2009-03-24 07:38pm 

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Joined: 2003-03-04 03:11pm
Posts: 361
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The Romulan Republic wrote:
They gave the Hutts more or less free reign in the Outer Rim so long as the didn't cause the Empire trouble as far as I can tell, the Emperor had a lot of dealings with that crime lord (can't remember his name) who hated Vader and helped build the Death Star, the Empire used slave labor frequently (weather or not this was in violation of thier own laws). I'd say that as long as the corruption didn't interfere with the agenda of the Imperial government, or was carried out by loyal Imperial henchmen, the Empire was happy to look the other way, or even actively support it.


I think you mean Prince Xizor from Shadows of the Empire
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The Romulan Republic
PostPosted: 2009-03-24 09:31pm 

Sith Marauder


Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
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Location: Victoria, Canada
Yep, that's the one.
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Board index » Fiction » Science Fiction » Star Wars vs Star Trek

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