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Thrawn Trilogy vs Star Trek

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Darth Hoth
PostPosted: 2008-07-08 09:07am 

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A new take on the VS debate: The Thrawn trilogy against the Trek galaxy.

The canon rules for the SW side are simple: Thrawn trilogy only. Neither Expanded Universe, nor film guides nor DK reference books, nor even the films themselves, are admissible as evidence. Only the written word of the Thrawn trilogy is to be taken as true; what happened outside it effectively did not, except where it is mentioned in it. Weapon power levels are such that can be scaled from the novels, ship shields cannot withstand Nkllon's sunlight, the size of the Empire is minuscule, there is only one (well, two) Jedi around et cetera.

The Federation, of course, is still curb-stomped even by the most minimalist GFFA possible. But not quite as easily. How does a standard wormhole scenario with this set-up unfold?
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Feil
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PostPosted: 2008-07-08 09:33am 

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Unless the wormholes are located next to important places, I don't think anybody would even care, beyond a few scouts. At the time of TTT, Star Wars already has huge untapped resources, so the big powers wouldn't waste active resources on what is obviously a low-tech, undeveloped bunch of worlds. Maybe Star Trek does some limited exploration or conquest on the Wars side, but their ships are slow, so they won't reach the conflict zones in any reasonable time scale. Most likely scenario is some local ex-Imperial warlord deciding to add to his private little Empire after having a few worlds sacked by the Borg and subsequently kicking their asses back to the Milky Way, I think.
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harbringer
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PostPosted: 2008-07-08 09:52am 

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Well all the stuff for star wars is assumed knowledge in the thrawn trilogy as are some of the characters even. Clones with blasters and clones that are brilliant pilots as well, flying fighters that can compete with small trek warships (such as the defiant) how was this fair again??.
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Peptuck
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PostPosted: 2008-07-08 11:03am 

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Quote:
ship shields cannot withstand Nkllon's sunlight,


Mike already dealt with this on the shields page.

Quote:
Nkllon-derived upper limit. Some Federation cultists point to the Nkllon incident in Heir to the Empire, in which the ISD Judicator suffered damage while orbiting the planet Nkllon, which closely orbits its sun Athega. However, there are several problems with this line of reasoning:

The characteristics of that star and planet are completely unknown- the star is described as super-hot in the SWE and the planet is obviously composed of extremely unusual minerals since Lando felt its mineral wealth was worth the expensive and dangerous undertaking of mining it, in spite of the fact that millions of other planets were accessible.

The shield-ships survived prolonged proximity to Nkllon even though they were actually unshielded vessels.

Based on the shield-ships, Nkllon was extremely close to its star, and suffering radiative bombardment equal to being deep in the corona of Sol.

The incident is official but non-canon and therefore overriden by the TESB and ROTJ canon evidence. (going to ignore this one, per Hoth's OP standards)

Heavy damage to the ship was not confirmed. In fact, the only descriptions of the damage came from Rebels, who speak from a seriously biased standpoint. Pallaeon reported that it would only take a few weeks to repair the damage, and one can surmise that it was probably confined to delicate items like sensor arrays, communications antennae, and perhaps exposed light gun barrels. At no time was the ship in any threat of being destroyed, not even in the biased evaluation of Rebels at the scene.

The Judicator started taking damage immediately after entering the area, which suggested that the solar radiation actually penetrated its shields even though they were still up. Furthermore, there was no sharp increase in damage level- the ship was taking damage continually while it was in the vicinity of Nkllon. There are several possible explanations for this phenomenon:

The Judicator entered the system with shields down. This would seem to be rather unlikely, since it is difficult to concoct a reason why they would do this.

The shields permitted enough stellar radiation through, even while up, to damage components on the ship's surface. This is distinctly possible. We know that, failing all else, the shields must allow visible-spectrum electromagnetic radiation to pass, since we can see the ships and their crew can see external objects through the windows.

The damaged components were weakly shielded by design. This is also distinctly possible. The efficiency of communications antennae and sensor arrays will obviously be adversely affected by highly opaque shielding, and the shielding may be deliberately semi-permeable to a wider range of electromagnetic radiation frequencies than the normal shielding over heavy armour.


In any case, this won't affect how thoroughly the TTT Empire would stomp the Federation with minimal effort. Thrawn, wanked out as his strategic skills are, could probably wipe the Federation out in a matter of weeks with a half-dozen ships.
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Napoleon the Clown
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 05:23am 

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Thrawn's tactical abilities overshadow the tactical abilities of the Federation by a degree as great, if not greater, than the Federation's tactics overshadow that Borg's. Take into account the overwhelming firepower of the ships he had, and the Federation gets curb-stomped into the stone age.
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Darth Hoth
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 07:21am 

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As an afterthought, can capital ship firepower be scaled from the Thrawn books? I cannot really think of a good example.
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bz249
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 07:52am 

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Darth Hoth wrote:
As an afterthought, can capital ship firepower be scaled from the Thrawn books? I cannot really think of a good example.


Since heavy turbolaser barrage felt as an earthquake in a distant city... well it would be quite a challenge :wink:
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Illuminatus Primus
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 10:11am 

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Napoleon the Clown wrote:
Thrawn's tactical abilities overshadow the tactical abilities of the Federation by a degree as great, if not greater, than the Federation's tactics overshadow that Borg's. Take into account the overwhelming firepower of the ships he had, and the Federation gets curb-stomped into the stone age.


Please. His tactical "abilities" are not quantificable or repeatable, they are pure fiat acts by Tim Zahn. I'm sure he'll just get some UFP socialist realism poster and then know exactly how they'll deploy their ships.
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Swindle1984
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 02:55pm 

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Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
Thrawn's tactical abilities overshadow the tactical abilities of the Federation by a degree as great, if not greater, than the Federation's tactics overshadow that Borg's. Take into account the overwhelming firepower of the ships he had, and the Federation gets curb-stomped into the stone age.


Please. His tactical "abilities" are not quantificable or repeatable, they are pure fiat acts by Tim Zahn. I'm sure he'll just get some UFP socialist realism poster and then know exactly how they'll deploy their ships.


Nah, he'd pretend to be friends with the Federation and explore the holodeck and their culture and art. Then he'd realize what chumps they were, curb-stomp the Federation, and conquer the Klingons, Romulans, and anyone else nearby without even bothering with tactics.
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Darth Wong
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 03:01pm 

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Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
Thrawn's tactical abilities overshadow the tactical abilities of the Federation by a degree as great, if not greater, than the Federation's tactics overshadow that Borg's. Take into account the overwhelming firepower of the ships he had, and the Federation gets curb-stomped into the stone age.

Please. His tactical "abilities" are not quantificable or repeatable, they are pure fiat acts by Tim Zahn. I'm sure he'll just get some UFP socialist realism poster and then know exactly how they'll deploy their ships.

On the other hand, Napoleon is only saying that his tactical abilities far outstrip those of the Federation, which is no doubt true since Federation tactics are pitiful.
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JGregory32
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PostPosted: 2008-07-09 11:59pm 

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I can just see how Thrawn would work.

Thrawn stares at POS artwork obtained by his Stealth Commando of DOOM!(patent pending). His brow furrows as he explores the soul of the Federation as expressed through art.
"Amazing, I've never seen the likes of this. This art work displays no creativity, no sense of history, no deeper meaning. These people are idiots!"
Captain 'I survived Lord Vader and you didn't.' marches into the room.
"Your battle tactics sir?"
Thrawn looks at Captain 'I survived Lord Vader and you didn't.' for a moment.
"Tactics? Against these idiots? Captain just kill them for me. Let me know when we encounter someone actually interesting."
"Yes sir, I think your Stealth Commando's of DOOM(patent pending) found you a nice little song called "The Wrath of Kayless" or something like that, would you care for me to set it playing while I leave?"
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Lord Pounder
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PostPosted: 2008-07-10 05:14pm 

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Darth Wong wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
Thrawn's tactical abilities overshadow the tactical abilities of the Federation by a degree as great, if not greater, than the Federation's tactics overshadow that Borg's. Take into account the overwhelming firepower of the ships he had, and the Federation gets curb-stomped into the stone age.

Please. His tactical "abilities" are not quantificable or repeatable, they are pure fiat acts by Tim Zahn. I'm sure he'll just get some UFP socialist realism poster and then know exactly how they'll deploy their ships.

On the other hand, Napoleon is only saying that his tactical abilities far outstrip those of the Federation, which is no doubt true since Federation tactics are pitiful.


Though in fairness the janitor on Thrawn's Star Destroyer probably out strips those of the Federation. Remember the Dominion War when the standard formation of the Federation Fleets was a wall of ships (Formation 2 in Homeworld IIRC).
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Themightytom
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PostPosted: 2008-07-10 05:29pm 

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is the appliccation of a greek letter to a stupid maneuver an indicator of tactical prowess? I believe Han's "Special maneuvers" would ahve been referred to as "Evasive pattern Picard sierra tango two charlie foxtrot".

What would thrawn do if someone gave him a magic eye to inspect? O.O

They were blowing up asteroids over coruscant in the thrawn trilogy, which star trek TOS couldn't do period, and ST VOY had a lot of trouble doing.

Although was there any evidence in the thrawn trilogy to negate the transporter advantage? That might get the Federation in trouble if Thrawn decides he could sue that technology. he'd probably invade just for the Klingon's cloaking device (Assuming they worked against imperial technology)
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Batman
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PostPosted: 2008-07-10 05:42pm 

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Quote:
They were blowing up asteroids over coruscant in the thrawn trilogy which star trek TOS couldn't do period, and ST VOY had a lot of trouble doing

And here I thought the E-Nil did just that in TMP...
Quote:
Although was there any evidence in the thrawn trilogy to negate the transporter advantage?

What transporter advantage?
Quote:
he'd probably invade just for the Klingon's cloaking device (Assuming they worked against imperial technology)

Um-Thrawn already has several kinds of cloaking technology at his disposal.
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Themightytom
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PostPosted: 2008-07-10 09:20pm 

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you know what you're not even really batman...


Quote:
And here I thought the E-Nil did just that in TMP...


I suppose that is true. I was going to ask why they couldn't manage to blow one up in "Rise" of voyager but it doesn't matter, because the book doesn't specifically state that the Empire COULD vaporize asteroids. The turbolaser commentary discusses scenes from The empire Strikes back as evidence.

Now I have to re read the thrawn trilogy to see where they talk about weapons effects.


Quote:
What transporter advantage?


Having one vs not? Even if we don't debate the value of teleporting weapons onto an enemy ship or reactors and rew OUT of an enemy ship, it would be a great espionage device if you acquired the technology from an unknown source and the new Republi didn't know you could beam storm troopers down to a planet from orbit


Quote:
Um-Thrawn already has several kinds of cloaking technology at his disposal.


The klingon one is used widely, implying its not expensive to build, the klingons can SEE out of their cloaking device, and if a bird of prey is around the size of the Millenium falcon than the Klingons can build them smaller, as it was stated in Empire Strikes Back that "no ship that small carries a cloaking device."

Although I guess that isn't admissable EITHER here as only TTT can be used as evicence. Definitely have to re read the thrawn trilogy
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Stark
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PostPosted: 2008-07-10 09:23pm 

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The Klingon cloak is also defeatable by contemporay sensors; even the Romulans have issues with this.
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Themightytom
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PostPosted: 2008-07-10 10:56pm 

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Stark wrote:
The Klingon cloak is also defeatable by contemporay sensors; even the Romulans have issues with this.


When was a cloak defeated in the TNG era by anything other than a carefull planned out technique applied by people familiar with the technology?

The Romulans couldn't find Shinzons ship, and he was using THEIR technology. The tachyon net wouldn' work so well for SW anyway, unl;ess its spread out over a rediculous area, During the klingon civil war they were guarding a critical area along the quickest path between the romulan border and a specific klingon planet.

They had a predictable situation. That would ahve been negated if the romulans had hyperspace technology beause they could have gone around the net.

The romulans didn't catch the klingon ship that brought Picard and Data to Romulus.

The Dominion found the cloaked ship that dropped off Garak kira and Damar but I think aht had been explained as them ahving a spy in their midst.

For that matter what are "contemporary sensors"? Do the imperials use the same "sensors" as the federation? For all we know that is comparing apples to oranges, and if there is a single wormhole to the Milky Way which appeared to lead to people with valuable technology wouldn't the impreials secure it so that the republic can't get acess to either it, or the people that "Know" about cloaking devices from taht galaxy?
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Knife
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 01:14am 

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Uhm, Kirk shot down a state of the art BOP with a heat seeking photon torp he (well Spock and Bones) jury rigged.
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Aaron
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 07:20am 

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Quote:
When was a cloak defeated in the TNG era by anything other than a carefull planned out technique applied by people familiar with the technology?


In The Search DS9, the Romulan laison tells Sisko that above a certain speed emissions are more easily detected.

In Tin Man (TNG) a Warbird running with it's engines over spec was detectable even under cloak.

In The Die is Cast (DS9) the Romulan/Cardie fleet showed up as a large concentration or tetryon particles.

In Face of the Enemy (TNG) the Romulan Commander is concerned about Federation gravitic sensors along the Neutral Zone, indicating that they could be detected.

In The Search (DS9) and Once More Unto the Breach (DS9) the Dominion was able to detect cloaked ships with a tachyon scanner and anti-proton beam.

Quote:
The Romulans couldn't find Shinzons ship, and he was using THEIR technology. The tachyon net wouldn' work so well for SW anyway, unl;ess its spread out over a rediculous area, During the klingon civil war they were guarding a critical area along the quickest path between the romulan border and a specific klingon planet.


They had a predictable situation. That would ahve been negated if the romulans had hyperspace technology beause they could have gone around the net.


Shinzons ship was using new technology for which a counter did obviously not exist yet. We've seen a progressive arms race with cloaking technology since TOS, so going by the precendent set in the show that cloak woulod shortly have been countered.

Besides the fact that the ship was destroyed and the tech likely lost.

Quote:
The romulans didn't catch the klingon ship that brought Picard and Data to Romulus.


The cloak merely increases the chances of not being deteced, it doesn't make them completely undetectable. Rather like turning the power down on your radio, you can still be detected and located. It's just harder for the enemy.

Quote:
For that matter what are "contemporary sensors"? Do the imperials use the same "sensors" as the federation? For all we know that is comparing apples to oranges, and if there is a single wormhole to the Milky Way which appeared to lead to people with valuable technology wouldn't the impreials secure it so that the republic can't get acess to either it, or the people that "Know" about cloaking devices from taht galaxy?


In the earlier EU (Han Solo Trilogy IIRC) there is mention of subspace sensors and communications in use by Xim the Despot. That's thousands of years before the OT.
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atg
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 10:24am 

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Illuminatus Primus wrote:
His tactical "abilities" are not quantificable or repeatable


Except for the part where Ackbar repeats Thrawn's tactics in Isards Revenge amongst others, ie the "Thrawn Pincer"?
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Illuminatus Primus
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 11:59am 

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atg wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
His tactical "abilities" are not quantificable or repeatable


Except for the part where Ackbar repeats Thrawn's tactics in Isards Revenge amongst others, ie the "Thrawn Pincer"?


:roll: I'm talking about his "the commander of this force is a blah blah, they always deploy like this" or "this is some art from so-and-so's collection, they will do this".
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Ender
PostPosted: 2008-07-11 12:16pm 

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Darth Hoth wrote:
Weapon power levels are such that can be scaled from the novels, ship shields cannot withstand Nkllon's sunlight,
The thing no one ever considers about the Nkllon incident is that for a star, much of the light released will be in the visible spectrum. Which is not blocked by shields. So the incident provides no quantification at all.

However, IIRC there is an incident where one of Karrde's ships gets very close to/gets caught in the exhaust stream of an ISD's engines. That does provide quantification.

As for the TL/earthquake bit, estimate the distance and magnitude, use seismologist graphs to determine strength at epicenter. It would provide a low end way to do it.
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Napoleon the Clown
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 01:44pm 

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TTT specifically states that the technology to detect gravitational forces as small as those produced my asteroids exists. Vague, I know. Odds are, the Empire could use that and go "Ah, there they are. Fire at will." If not, there's going to be something being emitted from the impulse engines of the Trek vessel. Imperial sensors may well be able to detect that. And, all else fails, there's just waiting for the Trek ship to fire its weapons and blast them afterward.
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Darth Nostril
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 03:07pm 

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Ender wrote:
However, IIRC there is an incident where one of Karrde's ships gets very close to/gets caught in the exhaust stream of an ISD's engines. That does provide quantification.


That's the bit where Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade escape the Chimaera aboard the Millenium Falcon, after successfully rescuing Talon Karrde from the clutches of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Dark Force Rising wrote:
"Come on, Mara," he said, slipping off his restraints. "You know how to handle a quad laser battery?"
"No, I need her here," Karrde said. He had the Falcon skimming the underside of the Star Destroyer now, heading for the ship's portside edge. "You go ahead. And take the dorsal gun bay - I think I can arrange for them to concentrate their attack from that direction"
Luke had no idea how he was going to accomplish that, but there was no time to discuss it. Already the Falcon was starting to jolt with laser hits, and from experience he knew there was only so much the ship's deflector shields could handle. Leaving the cockpit, he hurried to the gun well ladder, leaping halfway up, then climbing the rest of the way. He strapped in, fired up the quads ...... and as he looked around he discovered what Karrde had had in mind. The Falcon had curved up past the portside edge of the Chimaera, swung aft along the upper surface, and was now driving hard for deep space on a vector directly above the exhaust from the Star Destroyer's massive sublight drive nozzles. Skimming rather too close to it, in Luke's opinion; but it was for sure that no TIE fighters would be coming at them from underneath for a while


Napoleon the Clown wrote:
TTT specifically states that the technology to detect gravitational forces as small as those produced by asteroids exists. Vague, I know.


Much smaller than asteroids, unfortunately for anyone in a cloaked ship.

The Last Command wrote:
Leia nodded. Crystal gravfield traps, originally designed to zoom in on the mass of sensor-stealthed ships from thousands of kilometers away, would be ideal for this job.
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Batman
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PostPosted: 2008-07-11 05:12pm 

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Themightytom wrote:
you know what you're not even really batman...
Quote:
And here I thought the E-Nil did just that in TMP...

I suppose that is true. I was going to ask why they couldn't manage to blow one up in "Rise" of voyager but it doesn't matter, because the book doesn't specifically state that the Empire COULD vaporize asteroids. The turbolaser commentary discusses scenes from The empire Strikes back as evidence.

And is inadmissable as evidence per the OP. Try again. Here's a hint-not all asteroids are the same size. ;)
Quote:
Quote:
What transporter advantage?

Having one vs not? Even if we don't debate the value of teleporting weapons onto an enemy ship or reactors and rew OUT of an enemy ship,

When Trek shields, dense materials and electric transformators block transporters and thus it's highly dubitable transporters could penetrate Wars hulls, leave alone Wars shields,
Quote:
it would be a great espionage device if you acquired the technology from an unknown source and the new Republi didn't know you could beam storm troopers down to a planet from orbit

Technology they'll need a couple ten thousand years to understand and reengineer. And landing them with-do we have a Acclamator equivalent for the Imperial era? I'm a bit hazy on this-landing craft is FAR to be preferred because you can land armour and artillery at the same time, too.
Quote:
Quote:
Um-Thrawn already has several kinds of cloaking technology at his disposal.

The klingon one is used widely, implying its not expensive to build, the klingons can SEE out of their cloaking device

The ONLY double blind cloak was the one used by Thrawn in TTT
Quote:
and if a bird of prey is around the size of the Millenium falcon

When even the smaller ones are several times larger,
Quote:
than the Klingons can build them smaller, as it was stated in Empire Strikes Back that "no ship that small carries a cloaking device."

Not a worthwhile one, anyway. ST VI anyone?
Quote:
Although I guess that isn't admissable EITHER here as only TTT can be used as evicence. Definitely have to re read the thrawn trilogy

Last I checked the Klingon Emire didn't happen in Wars. Their thechnology would definitely be admissible. Your assumptions about it are simply erroneous.
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