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Saxton's Ewok Holocaust Theory

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Master of Ossus
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-06 04:22pm 

Darkest Knight


Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
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Even if they had destroyed the larger chunks of debris, the effect of the smaller bits would be enough to kill the Ewoks. I really don't see why there would have been a planetary shield over Endor. Perhaps it was a theatre shield? Remember that it was described as a security deflector shield (italics mine). That indicates, to me, that it only protected a small area of the planet, and was there as a security precaution against special forces operations, and not really as a full scale planetary shield. It is possible that that would have protected the part of Endor where the Ewoks we saw in the film live, but that would still leave the ecosystem so badly damaged that the Ewoks would eventually die out.

BTW, also remember that rebels from the fleet were able to land, but we never saw the special forces that they had entering another bunker to turn off the security deflector shield. The celebration was immediately after the battle, as indicated by the novel saying that there was still a significant amount of larger debris in-bound to the atmosphere. That would have been impossible had Han and his team neither de-activated the shield nor destroyed it. I think it would have been destroyed simultaneously with the main bunker.
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-06 07:22pm 

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IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
Why would it take so long for them to set up planetary shield generators? I don't think the Imperials are the only ones that use prefabricated buildings. I thought the Rebels did too. So setting one up would probably only be a matter of hours. I'm not sure how quickly those chunks of debris would hit Endor, but apparantly they didn't hit it yet in the movie or they were already vaporized from the shields that they put up.


Not every piece of equipment can be made pre-fabricated drop mobile that easily. A planetary shield generator is a huge, delicate device, which you then have to hook up to a power plant, which you then have to hook up with a projector, and the generator might be too big, so you have to split it up, and it goes on until it takes too long.

Or maybe they don't even have one. Remember they are Resource-Limited and must remain mobile. If they have a facility worthy of a planetary shield, it wouldn't take long for the Imperials to come in and smash that large operation.
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Master of Ossus
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-06 07:33pm 

Darkest Knight


Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
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The Rebel Alliance likely did not have planetary shield generators lying about. Remember that they had never held significant territories until after the Battle of Endor, and that they likely lacked the power generation and the shield systems for such a large planet.

It is possible, though, that they were able to use such a generator, I just think it unlikely, given the circumstances.
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CorSec
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-06 09:02pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-08 07:37pm
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Not to sound crass or anything, but the only real loss is the habitable aspects of Endor. I say good riddance to nasty ewoks!
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Talon Karrde
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-06 09:25pm 

Fundamentalist Moron


Joined: 2002-08-06 12:37am
Posts: 743
Location: Alabama
If only this were interesting :D I'd much rather spend my time on canon Star Wars
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Ragnar Rocker
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-06 10:58pm 

Redshirt


Joined: 2002-08-05 10:34am
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Location: Canada
"Not every piece of equipment can be made pre-fabricated drop mobile that easily. A planetary shield generator is a huge, delicate device, which you then have to hook up to a power plant, which you then have to hook up with a projector, and the generator might be too big, so you have to split it up, and it goes on until it takes too long."

These are all reasonable assumptions, but they are still assumptions.
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Master of Ossus
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-07 02:09am 

Darkest Knight


Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
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IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
What if the Rebels were aware of this and set up planetary shield generators and blocked the chunks of the DSII? Didn't anyone think of that?


Of course we've talked about the possibility, but it is unlikely that the Rebels would have had the resources to do something like that, at the time. Also, planetary generators generally take considerable time to establish.

BTW, planetary shields would block all of the debris, but stopping only the large chunks would still leave the Ewoks stewing in radiation. Thus, stopping only large debris would be ineffective.
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-07 05:35am 

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Ragnar Rocker wrote:
"Not every piece of equipment can be made pre-fabricated drop mobile that easily. A planetary shield generator is a huge, delicate device, which you then have to hook up to a power plant, which you then have to hook up with a projector, and the generator might be too big, so you have to split it up, and it goes on until it takes too long."

These are all reasonable assumptions, but they are still assumptions.


Yes they are, but that ain't so bad considering it was in response to an assumption that the Rebels had one right then and there ready to install. I'm listing it more as a alternate possibility to the original assertion, not as a "It must be that way."
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Ragnar Rocker
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-07 10:17am 

Redshirt


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I understand that, as i said, it's all totally reasonable.

Personally i like to think the Ewok disaster was averted somehow, but i guess we'll never know unless Lucas decides to specifically address the point
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SPOOFE
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-08 05:40am 

Sith Devotee


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Quote:
Saxton explained that. It is simply to do what they can. If we say they can destroy the larger chunks, then immediate effects can be avoided, and the Rebels on the planet can finish their celebration before leaving.

I know this. I am just of the opinion that he disregards shielding much too quickly and easily. It's nice to think "Ooh, the Rebels aren't that nice after all!", but that's just as big a leap in logic as it is to assume that a planetary shield was in place. Bigger, actually, since planetary shields are an established fact, and the Rebel's apathy towards others is not.

I'm saying that Saxton's conclusions have him trade one inconsistency for another one, when a single assumption - that the Rebels managed to shield the planet somehow (whether through shields on their ships, shields already in place on the planet, or shields quick set up on the planet) - would eliminate both inconsistencies.

I mean, let's face it, in the EU, we get accounts of planetary shields not being terribly difficult to set up secretly. The Empire's industrial supply is such that the obviously have the capability to do it without missing those resources a whole helluva lot, and a planetary shield would be one more piece of security to prevent sabotage (Han's infiltration, obviously, wouldn't have been affected by such... but Palpatine allowed that to happen, so it really doesn't count).
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-08 07:19am 

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A single assumption that is not totally necessary introduces an extra factor, potentially violating Occam's Razor. Saxton could make his theory fit with only the evidence on hand. He does not have to invent anything out of the blue. You, on the other hand, have to invent a planetary shield that was somehow never noticed by George Lucas, the most all-knowing of the authors (he has to be, his work is rated higher in credibility than any officials,) nor by anyone else for that matter.

You have to remember the Rebels aren't all that resource rich. If they had the facilities for a decent planetary shield with a fast set-up time, they might have used it over Hoth. Unless they suddenly bought a planetary shield, and decided that the Ewoks (if they really knew about them at all) are worth the sacrifice of a permanent planetary scale deflector over using it on a vital facility of their own. Or that they will risk it in a TRANSPORT in the battle zone.

I'm not sure the Rebels even have a power plant able to power a full blown planetary shield.
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IRG CommandoJoe
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-12 01:19am 

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Weren't the planetary shields on Hoth "full-blown"? And why wouldn't they Rebels have a spare planetary shield system on their capital ships? They don't have any vital facilities to protect. They protect their bases whenever they go to a new planet. They aren't very stationary, those Rebels. They move around a lot, from planet to planet, running from the Imperials. It is a logical assumption that they have defenses that are quick and easy to set up to defend against any invading Imperials. The only real problem the Rebels had in setting up their base on Hoth was adapting their equipment to the extremely cold temperatures of the ice planet. So why wouldn't they have planetary shielding that they could use on Endor? Besides, Endor is only a moon, not a planet. So it might be easier to set up than it would be on a planet. Just because the Rebels are low on resources doesn't mean they can't afford a planetary shield generator. That's like saying they can't afford capital ships or starfighters because they're low on resources. If they can afford to research and build two new starfighters (B-Wing and A-Wing) to have ready by the Battle of Endor, I'm sure they could afford to lug along some planetary shield generators on their transports and capital ships, so that they can use them to quickly secure planets where they set up their bases. And if the debris was traveling very quickly to Endor, why would Endor exist by the time of the celebration? If there were incoming chunks of the Death Star hurtling towards Endor, wouln't you see them flying towards the moon? But you don't. So it is reasonable to assume that the Rebels somehow managed to protect the moon from disaster. Why would the starfighters be flying around shooting off fireworks if there was impending doom??? The Ewoks were the ones that helped them to destroy the Death Star II. The Rebel Alliance wouldn't just say, "Oh, too bad you're all doing to die. Have a nice life! All 5 hours of it...." Endor somehow survived the debris of the Death Star II.
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Master of Ossus
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-12 01:28am 

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The Alliance, at the time, DID have heavy assets to protect. Several planets, most notably Mon Calamari, had openly joined the rebellion.

And it is canon that the Hoth energy shield only protected "an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment."

Endor is the size of a small, habitable planet. It would take just as long to set up planetary shields there as it would on most similarly sized planets, if not longer since other equipment and tech crews would have to be imported.

Planetary shields (for the Alliance) are vastly more resource consuming and less useful than either capital ships or starfighters. Remember that capital ships and starfighters can actually recuperate their costs by capturing Imperial or other equipment, as well as through other means. Planetary shield generators, while usually unecessary, anyway, would actually cost money to operate, and would be of no real use unless the Imperials decided to attack them.
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IRG CommandoJoe
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-12 01:53am 

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Yes, but the Imperials DO attack them. And why wouldn't planetary shields be useful as protection against asteroids, as described?
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-12 08:40am 

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The shields on Hoth are partial theater shields. If they were full blown planetary shields, the Imperials won't have landed. It is that simple. You'll have noticed that the Imps spent less than a day moving in, so they couldn't have landed THAT far away from the base.

They won't have a shield system. Everyone knows if the Fleet dies (very likely scenario here) then all they'll have left are bases and cells. Bringing more precious equipment into battle is impractical. The things take weight, they may be flammable or might even EXPLODE. You leave these things on transports, OUT of the battle zone, if you leave them there at all.

They don't have planetary shielding because they have limited resources and no one ever detected one (not Lucas, not anyone.) They rely more on staying undetected and a rapid-packup when detected, not on a planetary shield. For the limited defense they must do, a theater shield is adequate, cheap, and easier to pick up (or lose in the invasion.)

You still presume, by the way, that they MUST be able to rapidly set up a planetary scale shield. And we're not talking ordinary fast here. We are talking outrunning the debris.

The cold was a problem at Hoth, but removing it does not equate they can suddenly have a planetary shield. Stop wild speculating. Endor is a moon, but it has enough gravity to hold an atmosphere, and they had pretty normal gaits. It may be somewhat smaller, but it won't BEGIN to turn a theater shield into a planetary one.

The fact they made some new starfighters do not equate to a planetary shield. It must means they made starfighters. Their doctrine had not changed. A planetary shield will just be a waste of money.

I'll suspect that they had succeeded in killing off the biggest immediate threats and the starfighters were dealing with the ones that remain, so the planet can remain inhabitable until a nuclear winter like thing sets in.

And you're still assuming the Rebels care a LOT about those Ewoks, when there's a chance that they wouldn't even know they EXISTED. Face it, to everyone else, they may be teddy bears. Some of US think they're teddy bears. The sacrifice of a few teddy bears is nothing compared to the galaxy that was saved.

As for Mon Calamari, from the Rebel Sourcebook, it is clear that they expected to stop about a squadron, MAX. They were counting on the defense fleet, not a planetary shield, AFAIK.
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Patrick Degan
 Post subject: Endor is dead
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 12:42am 

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There is official literature to confirm the Endor holocaust scenario as cited in Curt Saxton's essay on the subject: the X-Wing novels, Dark Force Rising and Dark Empire. Furthermore, it was wholly unlikely that Palpatine would have bothered to invest the Endor moon with a full-scale planetary shield system. The only assets which needed to be protected at Endor were the ground-based shield generator and Death Star II, and as far as the rest of the moon was concerned, well, the novelisation of ROTJ has Emperor Palpatine ordering Moff Jerjerrod to turn the Death Star to align the superlaser with the moon to destroy it. Clearly, the Endor moon and its native Ewok population were considered quite expendible.

About the only chance the Rebels would have had to save any of the native Ewok population as well as their own troops on the ground would have been to land several of their large transports within a tight perimetre and possibly use them as makeshift theatre energy shield projectors. I'm not sure how feasible this operation might be, but it would be the one chance the Rebels would have to save anything, and the Ewok "army" would have to be evacuated along with the Rebel commando unit as soon as possible. But with gigaton-massed debris and millions of Death Star chunks of varying sizes and masses falling over a large area of the moon, there would be no chance to prevent the planetary ecosystem from being devestated, and probably a very large percentage of the Ewok species was annihilated.
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Master of Ossus
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 02:01am 

Darkest Knight


Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
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Location: California
Ragnar Rocker wrote:
"Not every piece of equipment can be made pre-fabricated drop mobile that easily. A planetary shield generator is a huge, delicate device, which you then have to hook up to a power plant, which you then have to hook up with a projector, and the generator might be too big, so you have to split it up, and it goes on until it takes too long."

These are all reasonable assumptions, but they are still assumptions.


The first sentence is not an assumption. Anyone can see that.

The second one is not an assumption. It is implied in EGWT (all other planetary weapons are BOTH highly expensive and difficult to establish), and demonstrated in the video games on the subject. The rest of it is speculatory, but highly reasonable, although in VotF it is clear that some planetary shield generators come with the power generators already installed (as part of the unit).
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SPOOFE
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 06:30am 

Sith Devotee


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Quote:
A single assumption that is not totally necessary introduces an extra factor, potentially violating Occam's Razor.

Saxton's theory is no different, though. He assumes that sources are just plain wrong, when the assumption of the presence of a common (and easy to set up and maintain, for the Empire) piece of technology would explain the matter.

If this were Star Trek, where planetary shields aren't so common and the typical industrial capacity isn't so great, I'd give more credence to Saxton's preference... but c'mon, the Empire can build a friggin' Death Star in six months. They're practically shitting planetary shield generators. They probably have planets with fifty shield generators just because they don't know what to do with them all. Hell, they could probably use planetary shield generators as currency, they're so common.

All right, I'm exaggerating. Just a tad. An eensy-weensy bit.

Quote:
Furthermore, it was wholly unlikely that Palpatine would have bothered to invest the Endor moon with a full-scale planetary shield system.

Why? It was obviously easy for them to do so. It would have utterly eliminated the possibility of unwanted saboteurs from getting onto the planet prior to Palpatine's arrival to the site. Such a simple security precaution that could potentially do so much for so important a project? I don't find that far-fetched at all.
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 07:36am 

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He didn't say they were WRONG. He rationalized all those he knew about without adding anything that wasn't there before. He just interpreted what was there. Your theory requires that we add a planetary shield that no one noticed, add a rapid deployment ability that you could not prove, add...

Their priority was to defend the Death Star. Without them opening the shield, the Rebels are far too much away, and certainly a legion of troopers is adequate for a few Rebel commandoes (the Ewok involvement was never in the Imperial cards at all.) If they really wanted safety at all costs, they'll never have leaked the info to the Bothans. THey wanted the Rebels to think they have a chance. Remember that.

Also, while we are speculating about things that were never shown...

If the Empire can get a theater shield that has the ability to wrap itself around the Death Star, it stands to reason they can design a planetary shield that can do the same thing if the situation warrants.

If that is the case, why didn't the planetary shield operators immediately see what happened to the normal shield and alter their shield geometry to so it covers the Death Star as well. It is logical that a design provision like this would safeguard the Death Star doubly.
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IRG CommandoJoe
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 01:37pm 

Sith Devotee


Joined: 2002-07-09 12:51pm
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Maybe Imperial transports with the ground forces waited for the Rebels to lower the planetary shields in order to evacuate their own transports and ships of sorts. When they were lowered, the Imperials landed and began their ground assault. Couldn't that explain why they landed? The Rebels could have very well had a planetary shield. There isn't any proof that they didn't have full planetary shields. Didn't Leia brief Rogue Squadron to escort all transports off of Hoth before the Imperials landed? That must mean they were evacuating during the Imperial transport's descent on the planet.

Another theory is that the planetary shields might not have protected against ships at all, but did protect against general weapons, as the shields did in TPM in the ground battle on Naboo. The blasters could not enter the shields, but the battle droids were able to. So maybe on Hoth, this was the case, where the Imperials could not DBZ the planet, but could land ground forces. Unless the Rebels at one point said they had to lower their shields to let transports escape...I really don't remember. :)
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Master of Ossus
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 02:21pm 

Darkest Knight


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But whenever you add an additional component, you are making something a violation of Occam's Razor. By adding the shield generators that the Rebels (somehow) had sitting around at the time, you are altering the situation and making it far less likely.
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IRG CommandoJoe
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 03:03pm 

Sith Devotee


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IMO, everything in the EU is at risk of being contradicted by Episode Three. Although this is unrelated to the discussion, just saying that no one should trust EU sources anymore for debates. But I still think the Rebels somehow saved the Ewoks, and the planetary/theater shields seems like the most efficient way they did it.
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SPOOFE
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 06:33pm 

Sith Devotee


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Quote:
He didn't say they were WRONG. He rationalized all those he knew about without adding anything that wasn't there before.

All right, he didn't say they were "wrong", he said they were delusional. That's such an improvement.

Quote:
Your theory requires that we add a planetary shield that no one noticed

Wrongo, I explained the canon basis for the possibility of a shield generator for the planet. I'll explain again: When Han lands on Endor, he had to transmit a code to lower the shield. The shield mentioned in the briefing, based on the parabolic dish on the shield generator AND based on the schematic from said briefing (there was no "bubble" at the base protecting the area around it), protected only the Death Star. Since Han was NOT landing on the Death Star, but on the surface of Endor, we must conclude that there was a shield protecting the surface.

FURTHER, since they went to such extreme measures to accomplish this mission - stealing a shuttle, acquiring access codes - instead of just flying a stealthy shuttle in on the far side of the moon, we can suppose that the entire surface of the planet was summarily shielded.

As you can see, I'm not assuming the presence of a planetary shield generator without evidence to support such an assertion.

Quote:
Their priority was to defend the Death Star. Without them opening the shield, the Rebels are far too much away, and certainly a legion of troopers is adequate for a few Rebel commandoes (the Ewok involvement was never in the Imperial cards at all.) If they really wanted safety at all costs, they'll never have leaked the info to the Bothans. THey wanted the Rebels to think they have a chance. Remember that.

They also wanted the Rebels to think that they had managed to acquire that information legitimately. Here is Endor, probably one of the top five most important planets (and/or moons) to the Emperor's plans. Don't you think it'd be a little suspicious if it wasn't fully shielded?

I'll ask a simple question: Why do you think it's irrational to assume that there was no shield generator on Endor? There was no mention of a shield generator on Alderaan, but few would dispute its existence.
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 07:26pm 

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He suggested a possibility that they were delusional. And he was forced to invoke that in a novel of the lowest credibility (he explained why its credibility was poor, too.)

The shield could easily be blocking a vector that they need. The area they needed to immediately protect is in fact very small on the moon, so it might not be visible on a planetary scale. Just enough so they can't simply airdrop the commandoes on them or take a shuttle on a bombing run. And Ackbar NEVER briefed them on an additional planetary shield, nor was a second commando team sent to destroy that shield in case it can also envelope the Death Star.

The Far Side of the Moon. You must be kidding here. You are talking about a foot commando force. If you land on the far side of a planetary-sized object that is heavily forested, how long do you think it'll take you to get to the other side. Hint, humans walk perhaps 3-5km/h when they aren't resting and in good health. They're commandos, but those numbers weren't taken in a forest.

Obviously not. Remember, no one briefed it. No one noticed it. There was no hard evidence. And if they had a backup shield somewhere, they might be using it to defend the Death Star when the theater shield goes out.

In fact, why have two shields AT ALL? The planetary shield could simply be slightly changed in its geometry so it covers the Death Star adequately. Then you could save the second generator and STILL be safe, all around.

Alderaan had a shield because we SAW a fucking shield effect, and even now, what we saw is being disputed by at least some. Endor had no such thing.
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Darth Yoshi
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2002-08-13 07:50pm 

Metroid


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It was probably a theatre shield protecting Endor, with the radar dish thing pushing it out to cover the DS. Considering that repulsors are unable to penetrate theatre shields as implied by TESB and shown by TPM, it can be assumed that a Lambda-class shuttle would be unable to penetrate it. If the Endor shield is as good as the Hoth shield, that means that it covers an area that can't be crossed on foot in any reasonable length of time, hence the stolen codes.
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