[OmniBack] Can the Borg assimilate a Founder?

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Postby Baal » 2007-07-10 10:52am

Flagg wrote:I don't know that the Borg could ever really do it without somehow freezing their ability to shapeshift. I mean the founders are able to fool Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and Cardassian sensors and scanning technology, including medical equipment. Right down to the blood cells at least. I think if ever at war with the Dominion, the Borg would simply try to completely wipe the founders out.


As for Data, I think the Borg could probably assimilate him easily if they chose to. IIRC we've seen Data interface with Starfleet technology on more than one occasion and we know they Borg can interface with it from First Contact and Voyager. What it comes down to is whether or not Data can block access to his neural net, and if the Borg can get through that firewall without taking his "brain" apart piece by piece.


I always figured that when Data said he could not be assimilated it meant the Borg couldnt assimilate him and get all of him. Sure they may be able to take control of his body but the time and effort it would take would be more than enough time for Data to completely trash his own neural network. The Queen needed those lockdown codes. If you give Data even a millisecond of time during assimilation he would delete/overwrite/delete that could a few million times so that there was no way for the Borg Queen to get the data she needed.

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Postby Skylon » 2007-07-10 12:20pm

Since Data is coming up a bit here, was I the only one who in "Best of Both Worlds" got the impression the Borg had a disdain for purely artificial life (ie: robots, droids etc). Based on Locutus' line that Data would be "obsolete in the new order".

Obviously this may have been revised by FC, and the Borg's efforts to assimilate/turn Data. Possibly because Data's meddling around in BoBW helped thwart them there.
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Postby ShadowSonic » 2007-07-10 01:05pm

I think they had a disdain for Data because he was a "Primitive" artifical organism, maybe if he was more advanced or made by Borg technology they'd have considered him worthwhile from the start.

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Postby Flagg » 2007-07-10 05:10pm

Baal wrote:
Flagg wrote:I don't know that the Borg could ever really do it without somehow freezing their ability to shapeshift. I mean the founders are able to fool Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and Cardassian sensors and scanning technology, including medical equipment. Right down to the blood cells at least. I think if ever at war with the Dominion, the Borg would simply try to completely wipe the founders out.


As for Data, I think the Borg could probably assimilate him easily if they chose to. IIRC we've seen Data interface with Starfleet technology on more than one occasion and we know they Borg can interface with it from First Contact and Voyager. What it comes down to is whether or not Data can block access to his neural net, and if the Borg can get through that firewall without taking his "brain" apart piece by piece.


I always figured that when Data said he could not be assimilated it meant the Borg couldnt assimilate him and get all of him. Sure they may be able to take control of his body but the time and effort it would take would be more than enough time for Data to completely trash his own neural network. The Queen needed those lockdown codes. If you give Data even a millisecond of time during assimilation he would delete/overwrite/delete that could a few million times so that there was no way for the Borg Queen to get the data she needed.


He said it in First Contact, correct? I always assumed he was just scared shitless and in denial.
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Postby Socar15 » 2007-07-10 05:28pm

Flagg wrote:He said it in First Contact, correct? I always assumed he was just scared shitless and in denial.


Data saying that was from before they reactivated his emotion chip, so him being scared shitless wasn't a factor at that point.

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Postby Flagg » 2007-07-10 05:34pm

Socar15 wrote:
Flagg wrote:He said it in First Contact, correct? I always assumed he was just scared shitless and in denial.


Data saying that was from before they reactivated his emotion chip, so him being scared shitless wasn't a factor at that point.


Hrm. I can see no reason why the Borg wouldn't be able to assimilate him unless he was somehow able to wipe his memory, so you're probably right.
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Postby ShadowSonic » 2007-07-10 05:43pm

He was either bluffing or was ready to commit "suicide" to keep the Borg from hacking his brain, but either way I'd say the Borg are quite capable of assimilating a Soong-type android.

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Postby Stark » 2007-07-10 06:02pm

So instead of the obvious 'you guys can't deal with my positronic brain', you instead go with 'we're all retards and I want you to give it to me willingly oh wait you've killed us all'?

Show evidence they can extract data from a positronic brain, since the impression of everyone I've ever met is that they can't, which is why the Queen debased herself in such a pathetic display instead of just plugging a USB cable in. The Borg are cripplingly unimaginative, and nobody (even Data) in the Federation can work out how Data's brain works. Remember, the Borg are out-thought by Voyager's autodoc.

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Postby OmniBack » 2007-08-03 03:28pm

brianeyci wrote:The Dominion relies on weapons platforms on the home front, shielded huge weapons platforms strong enough to resist a whole Federation fleet.
A *single* Borg Cube is able to completely rape a Federation fleet.

brianeyci wrote:Without their special adaptation defense, the Borg have nothing.
Well I've seen calcs that put that deflector shield at many GT.


Remember that last ditch effort the Ent-D did, and it had no effect... even without adaptation.

Which can be seen here at 1:39

I don't remember the Dominion having that kind of firepower.


brianeyci wrote:It's not like the Borg one-shotted shit in ST:FC.
1:50 in the above video.

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Postby Starglider » 2007-08-03 04:51pm

OmniBack wrote:
brianeyci wrote:The Dominion relies on weapons platforms on the home front, shielded huge weapons platforms strong enough to resist a whole Federation fleet.
A *single* Borg Cube is able to completely rape a Federation fleet.


And a Voyager was able to destroy cubes with single shots in Endgame. Meanwhile the Dominion have lots of weapons platforms that don't rely on dicey technobabble to work. What's your point again?

OmniBack wrote:Well I've seen calcs that put that deflector shield at many GT.


What calculations are those?

Remember that last ditch effort the Ent-D did, and it had no effect...


If you mean the deflector dish trick, how does the failure of a piece of Federation technobabble improvised out of a GCS deflector dish demonstrate anything about Borg deflector shield strength?

I don't remember the Dominion having that kind of firepower.


No, the Dominion are smart enough to rely on real weapons rather than last ditch messing about with their deflector dishes.
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Postby OmniBack » 2007-08-03 05:29pm

Starglider wrote:And a Voyager was able to destroy cubes with single shots in Endgame. Meanwhile the Dominion have lots of weapons platforms that don't rely on dicey technobabble to work. What's your point again?


So brianeyci states that the Dominion can hold their own/defeat the Borg because "The Dominion weapons platforms on the home front, shielded huge weapons platforms strong enough to resist a whole Federation fleet.", and I counter this with the fact that a single Borg cube can completely rape the same fleet and you want to know what the point is?





Starglider wrote:What calculations are those?


Some calcs done by vivftp.

Starglider wrote:If you mean the deflector dish trick, how does the failure of a piece of Federation technobabble improvised out of a GCS deflector dish demonstrate anything about Borg deflector shield strength?
Because that "technobabble" had a yield, and maybe you've heard of them?

That's how you know who has stronger weapons/shields!

Starglider wrote:No, the Dominion are smart enough to rely on real weapons rather than last ditch messing about with their deflector dishes.
And this means what?

Jack shit!

It doesn't matter what they rely on you ass, if their "real weapons" aren't as powerful as that "last ditch messing about with their deflector dish" than who gives a shit?

That's like saying a "real weapon" that does one KT of damage will have more of an effect than a "last ditch messing about with their deflector dish" that does one MT of damage.


Do you see what your posting?

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Postby brianeyci » 2007-08-03 05:45pm

Omniback, your kind of thinking is pretty stupid. Just because the Dominion can beat the Federation and the Borg can beat the Federation that doesn't mean the Borg can beat the Dominion. You sound like the kind of guy to make dumb "power rankings" of civilizations with x > y > z > a etc., with no regard to specific circumstances.

I will say that after Kane Starkiller's post I stopped posting, and it had to be weeks ago (or felt like it.) Because Kane is right, and the phased part is a trick. So the Dominion would probably get its ass raped, just not because of some kind of "firepower ladder."

EDIT: By the way I read back, because I didn't remember what I read weeks ago and I don't think I was so stupid as to claim what you said I claimed Omni. And I didn't. I brought up weapons platforms in response to transwarp, stating that weapons platforms are static defenses. I didn't bring them up to say that Dominion > Federation => Borg > Dominion. So you took my words out of context.

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Postby Ghost Rider » 2007-08-03 06:04pm

I'll give dipshit one post to actually produce a calculation. And provide said math back up. If not, locking because he's not contributing anything beyond what's spewing out his ass.
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Postby Starglider » 2007-08-03 06:35pm

OmniBrat wrote:Because that "technobabble" had a yield, and maybe you've heard of them?


This has to be a deliberate troll, I can't believe someone would be stupid enough to not only cite the rantings of a banned troll as evidence, but then fail to even describe the 'yields' and 'calculations' their argument relies on when challenged. Sock puppet perhaps?

OmniBrat wrote:I counter this with the fact that a single Borg cube can completely rape the same fleet and you want to know what the point is?


Yes. Opponent A smashed a Federation fleet until it was killed by technobabble. Opponent B did the same. Nothing is demonstrated about A vs B, though the Chintoka defences probably did more damage against more ships than that borg cube.
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Postby Batman » 2007-08-03 07:03pm

OmniBack wrote:
Starglider wrote:And a Voyager was able to destroy cubes with single shots in Endgame. Meanwhile the Dominion have lots of weapons platforms that don't rely on dicey technobabble to work. What's your point again?

So brianeyci states that the Dominion can hold their own/defeat the Borg because "The Dominion weapons platforms on the home front, shielded huge weapons platforms strong enough to resist a whole Federation fleet.", and I counter this with the fact that a single Borg cube can completely rape the same fleet and you want to know what the point is?

The term 'Yes' comes to mind. Because the Dominion beat that Federation fleet by what apparently was sheer brute force. The Borg cube beat the Feds via technobabble. So while the Dominion beating the Feds says something about their firepower, the Borg doing it does NOT.
Starglider wrote:What calculations are those?

Some calcs done by vivftp.

I note a distinct lack of numbers. Not that I'd consider vivftp a reliable source but that has already been pointed out.
Starglider wrote:If you mean the deflector dish trick, how does the failure of a piece of Federation technobabble improvised out of a GCS deflector dish demonstrate anything about Borg deflector shield strength?
Because that "technobabble" had a yield, and maybe you've heard of them?

How convenient that you provided not only the yield but also the way it was determined, then. Oh wait, you didn't, which is unsurprising since it is IMPOSSIBLE to quantify the BoBW swiss-army-deflector event, what with it resulting in NOTHING WHATSOEVER.
That's how you know who has stronger weapons/shields!

A pity that can't be done for the swiss-army-deflector event. You're a lying little shit.
Starglider wrote:No, the Dominion are smart enough to rely on real weapons rather than last ditch messing about with their deflector dishes.
And this means what?

It means the Dominion beating a Fed fleet says something about their firepower while the Borg winning via technobabble doesn't.
It doesn't matter what they rely on you ass, if their "real weapons" aren't as powerful as that "last ditch messing about with their deflector dish" than who gives a shit?

People who realize that the swiss-army-deflector dish doesn't say beans about the resilience of the Borg while those 'real weapons' DO say something about Dominion firepower.
That's like saying a "real weapon" that does one KT of damage will have more of an effect than a "last ditch messing about with their deflector dish" that does one MT of damage.

Too bad there's no evidence for that swiss-army-deflector dish doing ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER AT ALL.
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Postby OmniBack » 2007-08-04 12:01am

brianeyci wrote:Omniback, your kind of thinking is pretty stupid. Just because the Dominion can beat the Federation and the Borg can beat the Federation that doesn't mean the Borg can beat the Dominion.
That's not what I've said at all.

brianeyci wrote: Because Kane is right, and the phased part is a trick.
What are you talking about?

brianeyci wrote:So the Dominion would probably get its ass raped, just not because of some kind of "firepower ladder."
Again, what are you talking about?

brianeyci wrote:EDIT: By the way I read back, because I didn't remember what I read weeks ago and I don't think I was so stupid as to claim what you said I claimed Omni. And I didn't. I brought up weapons platforms in response to transwarp, stating that weapons platforms are static defenses.
What you posted is clear for all to see, don't back out of it now.

brianeyci wrote:I didn't bring them up to say that Dominion > Federation => Borg > Dominion. So you took my words out of context.
I did no such thing, its there to read plain as day.

Ghost Rider wrote:I'll give dipshit one post to actually produce a calculation. And provide said math back up. If not, locking because he's not contributing anything beyond what's spewing out his ass.
Fuck off, and as far as calcs go here: http://forums.spacebattles.com/archive/index.php/t-73155.html, this is an older calc and I'm still looking for a newer one done a few months ago.

DickLicker wrote:
OmniBrat wrote:Because that "technobabble" had a yield, and maybe you've heard of them?


DickLicker wrote:This has to be a deliberate troll, I can't believe someone would be stupid enough to not only cite the rantings of a banned troll as evidence,

He's not known as a troll on SB.com, what was he banned for and why call him a troll?


And banned or not, that doesn't invalidate his math, etc.

DickLicker wrote:but then fail to even describe the 'yields' and 'calculations' their argument relies on when challenged.
That is a lie, I supplied it when challenged, so piss off.

DickLicker wrote:Yes. Opponent A smashed a Federation fleet until it was killed by technobabble. Opponent B did the same. Nothing is demonstrated about A vs B, though the Chintoka defences probably did more damage against more ships than that borg cube.
What the hell are you bullshiting about now?

All I'm saying is that merely saying that the Dominion weapons platforms defeated Federation fleets isn't that impressive when a *single* Borg cube has done the same.


Batman wrote:You're a lying little shit.

Too bad there's no evidence for that swiss-army-deflector dish doing ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER AT ALL.


See above, and I just PM'd viv I'm waiting for his reply.

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Postby Ghost Rider » 2007-08-04 10:07am

Flushing because the idiot doesn't grasp, that viv did nothing that could be considered math. He pulled dialogue numbers and went from there.
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Postby Surlethe » 2007-08-04 10:55am

Hey, OmniBack, you should be able to repeat vivftp's argument for yourself instead of simply pointing to it and going "looky there!" Otherwise, your "argument" borders quite closely on the appeal to authority.
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Postby OmniBack » 2007-08-04 12:41pm

Surlethe wrote:Hey, OmniBack, you should be able to repeat vivftp's argument for yourself instead of simply pointing to it and going "looky there!" Otherwise, your "argument" borders quite closely on the appeal to authority.


That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, you're an idiot.

Why should I have to perform my own calc, when I can past someone elses?


Where's the difference?


You're still getting numbers and the math that shows how they were formed.



By your logic math teachers should conduct all their classes with no textbooks.

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PM from vivftp.

Postby OmniBack » 2007-08-04 12:47pm

I'm following your discussion on SDN about this. I will only say this
once. The calc is NOT valid. If you note, in the original post it was
just a "for the hell of it" sort of deal. For whatever reason after that
it kinda stuck and cropped up in several additional threads over the
years, but I don't support the calc as being valid, and have noted so in a
few of those threads.

Again, the calc is NOT valid and if you don't mind, I'd like you to
tell them this over there. Either just tell them or please copy and paste
this reply.

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Re: PM from vivftp.

Postby Havok » 2007-08-04 12:57pm

OmniBack wrote:I'm following your discussion on SDN about this. I will only say this
once. The calc is NOT valid. If you note, in the original post it was
just a "for the hell of it" sort of deal. For whatever reason after that
it kinda stuck and cropped up in several additional threads over the
years, but I don't support the calc as being valid, and have noted so in a
few of those threads.

Again, the calc is NOT valid and if you don't mind, I'd like you to
tell them this over there. Either just tell them or please copy and paste
this reply.


So, is this a concession? :?:
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Postby Surlethe » 2007-08-04 12:58pm

OmniBack wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Hey, OmniBack, you should be able to repeat vivftp's argument for yourself instead of simply pointing to it and going "looky there!" Otherwise, your "argument" borders quite closely on the appeal to authority.


That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, you're an idiot.

Why should I have to perform my own calc, when I can past someone elses?


You're a moron with the reading comprehension of a chimpanzee. You should be able to understand and repeat the argument instead of doing nothing but linking to the calculations.

By your logic math teachers should conduct all their classes with no textbooks.


No, by my logic math teachers should be able to teach the class instead of pointing to the textbook and saying "Pages 252-257. Read and learn", and then sitting back and drinking a tequila.
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Postby General Schatten » 2007-08-04 03:05pm

OmniBack wrote:He's not known as a troll on SB.com, what was he banned for and why call him a troll?


Many of our rejects go to Spacebattles to become community members of 'good standing' which I view as evidence of SB being inherently inferior, but that's neither here nor there. But to quote Edi on Vivftp in his ban thread (If you weren't so stupid as to be incapable of using search), 'He has a track record of passive-aggressive bullshit, wall of ignorance, broken record debating and he has directly stated he has no interest in learning anything or improving himself.'
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Re: PM from vivftp.

Postby Dalton » 2007-08-04 03:12pm

OmniBack wrote:I'm following your discussion on SDN about this. I will only say this
once. The calc is NOT valid. If you note, in the original post it was
just a "for the hell of it" sort of deal. For whatever reason after that
it kinda stuck and cropped up in several additional threads over the
years, but I don't support the calc as being valid, and have noted so in a
few of those threads.

Again, the calc is NOT valid and if you don't mind, I'd like you to
tell them this over there. Either just tell them or please copy and paste
this reply.

If your only purpose here is to act as the mouthpiece of a banned user, then why should we let you stay?
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Re: PM from vivftp.

Postby OmniBack » 2007-08-04 03:28pm

Dalton wrote:If your only purpose here is to act as the mouthpiece of a banned user, then why should we let you stay?
Fuck you.


I'm not acting as a mouth piece for anyone, I simply cited a calc done by another poster to use in this debate.


And that user asked me to post that, saying he didn't support the calc.




So far all you assholes have done is talk shit about how he's a troll who got banned, and how I'm stupid for posting someone else's calc instead of doing my own (which is a load of crap, you fucking retards)... are any of you going to actually debate the issue or not.



So far none of you have shown the slightest ability to carry on a rational debate, and have shown no reason as to why the Dominion would beat the Collective.

Also as an aside, that isn't even the point of this thread (Can a/the Drone/Collective assimilate a Founder?).


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