[Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Moderator: CmdrWilkens

What shall be done with Schuyler Colfax

Poll ended at 2009-06-08 07:10pm

PermaBan (only)
3
7%
PermaBan (lesser offenses would be acceptable)
11
26%
TempBan (only)
10
24%
TempBan (lesser offenses would be acceptable)
7
17%
Title (TBD)
2
5%
Table the Issue
3
7%
Abstain
6
14%
 
Total votes: 42

User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Bounty » 2009-06-02 12:29pm

Voted.

User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by RedImperator » 2009-06-02 12:51pm

Veoted
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues

User avatar
Simplicius
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2006-01-27 06:07pm

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Simplicius » 2009-06-02 03:25pm

Done.

User avatar
Mad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:32am
Location: North Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Mad » 2009-06-02 10:46pm

Abstain. Haven't seen much of him in the threads I've frequented lately.
Later...

User avatar
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Ruthless Imperial Tyrant
Posts: 5755
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:11pm
Location: Canada

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2009-06-03 12:41am

Voted.
"You know, I was God once."
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama

User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Kuja » 2009-06-03 03:47am

Yeah.
Image
JADAFETWA

User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by fgalkin » 2009-06-03 07:50am

Abstain.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 19940
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by LadyTevar » 2009-06-03 08:11pm

Blah
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet

User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2009-06-07 01:04am

Since it's now mathematically impossible for Schuyler Colfax to receive anything other than a temp ban, I move that we create a thread to discuss the length options for the temp ban, with the proposal that they be 4-months, 6-months, and 12-months, with whichever that gets a plurality becoming his punishment.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.

User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2009-06-07 01:46am

Till, labour day?
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin

User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15548
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Knife » 2009-06-07 02:17am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Since it's now mathematically impossible for Schuyler Colfax to receive anything other than a temp ban, I move that we create a thread to discuss the length options for the temp ban, with the proposal that they be 4-months, 6-months, and 12-months, with whichever that gets a plurality becoming his punishment.
Considering a Perm Ban (with lesser being acceptable) is winning, I would point out a new set of polls without a perm ban option would be...insulting.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2009-06-07 02:36am

I swear some of us are so bloodthirsty about banning that they belong in the great terror right next to rospierre.

---edit---

for those who don't know whom I'm refering too. Robespierre
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin

User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2009-06-07 06:39am

Ahh, there are 14 first-preference votes for a permban and 16 first-preference votes for a tempban, with 11 second-preference votes for a tempban leading to 27 votes in favour of a temp ban, which is half the Senate, so you're wrong.

If you want to get technical there are 3 first-preference, 7 second-preference, and 11 third-preference votes for a titling, but third-preference votes would only be applied if the second preference doesn't pass. However, it is now a mathematical impossibility for the 11 first-preference permban, second-preference tempban votes to be applied to a permban, because the permban cannot achieve enough votes in any remaining mathematical circumstance to pass, meaning that the second-preference of those eleven votes should be applied to a tempban.

Granted, there's a few other ways of looking at this depending on what sort of variation of Single Transferable Vote that Greg is using, but they all lead to a temp ban.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-06-07 11:51am

Knife wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Since it's now mathematically impossible for Schuyler Colfax to receive anything other than a temp ban, I move that we create a thread to discuss the length options for the temp ban, with the proposal that they be 4-months, 6-months, and 12-months, with whichever that gets a plurality becoming his punishment.
Considering a Perm Ban (with lesser being acceptable) is winning, I would point out a new set of polls without a perm ban option would be...insulting.
Here is hwo things stand with one day to go:

PermaBan 14 votes (counting PermaBan and PermaBan+Lesser) out of 36 non-abstentions
TempBan 27 votes (counting PermaBan+Lesser, TempBan Only, and TempBan+Lesser) out of 36 non-abstentions
Title 21 votes (counting PermaBan+Lesser, TempBan+Lesser, and Title) out of 36 non-abstentions
Table/None 3 Votes
Abstain 6 votes

As currently constructed (and as I indicated in the initial post) the measure which would pass is TempBan given that:
a) PermaBan does NOT have the 60% supermajority neccessarry for passage
b) TempBan does have the simple majority neccessarry for passage
c) TempBan carries before lesser preferences are applied to chosing a title


Again I will quote from my OP:
CmdrWilkens wrote:Per the rules a PermaBan requires a supermajority of all voters and a 50% quorum, for purposes of calculating this votes for both A and B will be considered PermaBan votes. If PermaBan does not pass the next evaluation will be for TempBan which requires a majoirty vote and 40% quorum, for purposes of calculating this will include all votes in options B, C, and D. If TempBan fails the next evaluation is Title which will be counted from options B, D, and E and must pass by majority vote and 40% quorum. If none of the option (PermaBan, TempBan, Title) pass then we will table the issue until and if Colfax violates the terms of his self propsoed parole.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15548
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Knife » 2009-06-07 12:46pm

You both are assuming quite a bit in the vague definitions given to vote upon. How ever, I shall reiterate my point, with all the basic categories in the vote; Permban (lesser offenses would be acceptable) is WINNING. Not having a category in a more defining vote that represents the PERM BAN in the PERM BAN (lesser offenses would be acceptable) would make this current vote an abortion and a disgrace.

Trying to go about it in a statistical manner when each category bleeds into the other is giving you both assumptions that are not warranted especially since the drama had move forward durring the voting period. You can not and should not eliminate a category for a more defined vote based off of a vague category vote that IS WINNING in the vote. I don't care if you tally up all the 'less punishments' categories end up beating the 'larger punishment' categories. IN THE VOTE PERM BAN (lesser offenses would be acceptable) is winning and not having PERM BAN as an option in the next tier of votes in NOT ACCEPTABLE whether or not it wins in that vote is another matter.

Edit: To further pontificate, who cares if you think it has a statistical chance of passage in the next tier of votes. That is not what matters in my objection, rather the Chancillorship limiting voting options due to assumed voting statistics. Put it in and if no one votes for it, no one votes for it.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-06-07 04:38pm

Knife wrote:You both are assuming quite a bit in the vague definitions given to vote upon. How ever, I shall reiterate my point, with all the basic categories in the vote; Permban (lesser offenses would be acceptable) is WINNING. Not having a category in a more defining vote that represents the PERM BAN in the PERM BAN (lesser offenses would be acceptable) would make this current vote an abortion and a disgrace.

Trying to go about it in a statistical manner when each category bleeds into the other is giving you both assumptions that are not warranted especially since the drama had move forward durring the voting period. You can not and should not eliminate a category for a more defined vote based off of a vague category vote that IS WINNING in the vote. I don't care if you tally up all the 'less punishments' categories end up beating the 'larger punishment' categories. IN THE VOTE PERM BAN (lesser offenses would be acceptable) is winning and not having PERM BAN as an option in the next tier of votes in NOT ACCEPTABLE whether or not it wins in that vote is another matter.

Edit: To further pontificate, who cares if you think it has a statistical chance of passage in the next tier of votes. That is not what matters in my objection, rather the Chancillorship limiting voting options due to assumed voting statistics. Put it in and if no one votes for it, no one votes for it.
Allright let me lay some things out here:

The following options are available in sum:
If the possibilities are as such:
A Perma Ban
B Temp Ban
C Title

Then the following preferences are possible:

A, none, none
A, B, none
A, C, none
A, B, C
A, C, B
B, none, none
B, C, none
B, A, none
B, C, A
B, A, C
C, none, none
C, B, none
C, A, none
C, B, A
C, A, B
none, none, none

That is more total options than the board software allows for so what I did was state, very clearly I thought, what options or combinations thereof we would be voting upon. As such the available options are:

- A, none, none
- A, B, C
- B, none, none
- B, C, none
- C, none, none
- none, none, none

Now one could point out that the chance certianly exists for folks to have preference for a heavier punishment secondary to a lighter punishment and I did not include that chance I feel this is a relatively solid model. It is, essentially, a Single Transferrable Vote. One votes for either an Option with no transfer (A,none,none; B,none, none; C none, none) or they vote with their option transferrable to the "lower" tiers of punishment.

You might upbarid the decision but I would challenge that given the constraints of the voting software which does not allow for more than 10 options (and none, none, none along with Abstain MUST be included) this represents the best possible compromise.

As to the idea that Perma Ban (lesser is acceptable) "winning" that may be true but Perma Ban requires a 60% supermajority. Of the 36 non-abstentions cast so far this would require 22 votes in favor...so PermaBan is not "winning." It may be the leading contender but it is not "winning" in the sense that it currently lacks sufficient support to pass. Given that I stated in the OP that if PermaBan doesn't pass then votes for PermaBan plus lesser would transfer to TempBan I find it ironic that anyone could have been deceived or misled as to how I will determine the final outcome.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22148
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Mr Bean » 2009-06-07 04:44pm

I have a far more simple model CmdrWilkens

We have at present 11 votes for Permaban(Less punishments acceptable), 9 votes for temp ban only and 7 votes for temp ban or lesser. At present it puts us 27 votes for a Temp-ban as both the 9 votes for temp ban only and temp bans or less count towards the ban limit.

At 27 votes of 42 votes the Temp ban is currently passing with 64% of the total votes.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-06-07 09:25pm

Mr Bean wrote:I have a far more simple model CmdrWilkens

We have at present 11 votes for Permaban(Less punishments acceptable), 9 votes for temp ban only and 7 votes for temp ban or lesser. At present it puts us 27 votes for a Temp-ban as both the 9 votes for temp ban only and temp bans or less count towards the ban limit.

At 27 votes of 42 votes the Temp ban is currently passing with 64% of the total votes.
Which is exactly what I said here
Here is hwo things stand with one day to go:

PermaBan 14 votes (counting PermaBan and PermaBan+Lesser) out of 36 non-abstentions
TempBan 27 votes (counting PermaBan+Lesser, TempBan Only, and TempBan+Lesser) out of 36 non-abstentions
Title 21 votes (counting PermaBan+Lesser, TempBan+Lesser, and Title) out of 36 non-abstentions
Table/None 3 Votes
Abstain 6 votes

As currently constructed (and as I indicated in the initial post) the measure which would pass is TempBan given that:
a) PermaBan does NOT have the 60% supermajority neccessarry for passage
b) TempBan does have the simple majority neccessarry for passage
c) TempBan carries before lesser preferences are applied to chosing a title
and here
Taking the current vote totals there are:

14 for PermaBan
25 for TempBan (counting PermaBan+ Lesser, TempBan Only, and TempBan + Lesser)
20 for Title (counting PermBan+Lesser, TempBan+Lesser and Title Only)
2 No Punishments
6 Abstains

Currently TempBan is the leading preference with length To Be Determined.
Near as I can tell Knife's objection is that there is no clear dileneation as to preference within the PermaBan+Lesser and TempBan+Lesser categories. That is, and my post was pointing out that there aren't all that many ways to do it better, those two categories are not as fully defined in terms of where the Instant Runoff Vote ends up. While I get the objection my point in posting above, and here, is to clarify that the rules for how this vote will be conducted have been made as abundantly clear as I can make them. No one prior to this point had raised any objections (well I did get into a technical discussion via PM but I'm saving that for Tuesday).

Clarifying a bit more the system I am using here is a modified instant runoff whereby voters are indicating a first, second and third preference (Perma/None/None ; Perma/Temp/Title ; Temp/None/None ; Temp/Title/None ; Title/None/None ; None/None/None). Obviously this does not include all possible results (Perma/Title/Temp, Perma/Temp/None and Perma/Title/None being the most obvious) and most notably there is no allowance for a "harsher" punishment as a second or third preference. Anyway when the tally begins first preferenes are:

14 Perma
17 Temp
2 Title
6 None
No option meets the majority requirements (22 for Perma, 19 for Temp or Title) so Title is eliminated and we recount:

14 Perma
17 Temp
8 None (6 None First Preferences and 2 None Second Preferences)

Again, no options meets the majority requirements (22 for Perma, 19 for Temp) so "None" is eliminated and we recount:

14 Perma
17 Temp

Again no option meets the majority requirements and Perma is eliminated and we recount:

28 Temp (17 first preference and 11 second preference)

Temp now carries a majority for victory. That would be under a pure IRV and the modified version as I stated in the OP has Perma-Ban eliminated if it does not pass on the first "ballot." Since the secondary preferences are, and here I could understand some criticism, only for lesser punishments it is not possible for permaBan to gain any ground in future rounds. If secondary preference did not pass TempBan then tertiary preference would be given to Title (again I did this because of the descending punishment options) and if tertiary was insufficient then a majority would not have been attained and the measure would fail. As a matter of course this would require that PermaOnly+TempOnly+None to hold an outright majority which it does not (in other words None as a primary or secondary preference would have to hold a majority stake).

Its not perfect as I admit above but I think some technical arguments aside, and I'm getting into that on Tuesday, its a valid and fair preferrential voting system.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by RedImperator » 2009-06-07 09:48pm

I wonder if it's possible to mod the software to allow preferential voting.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-06-07 10:27pm

RedImperator wrote:I wonder if it's possible to mod the software to allow preferential voting.
Maybe and the answer comes with a bit mroe explanation on Tuesday...I promise. Its just I've been having a highly technial discussion on the issue and right now there is some work being done to see if it can be added to the code. That aside I'm going to bring up a summarized and clarified version of the discussions I've been having once this vote closes. The reason is I don't want to get any deeper into mecahnics (I've really violated my own rule a bit in this thread) until we've finished with all the outstanding votes and we've had 4 in the last week and a half.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2009-06-07 10:28pm

RedImperator wrote:I wonder if it's possible to mod the software to allow preferential voting.
That would be really cool and I'd definitely support it, it would make these polls much more efficient and interactive and avoid the need for runoffs.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.

User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22148
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by Mr Bean » 2009-06-07 11:03pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Which is exactly what I said
Which is why I said it in far fewer words,.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Vote]Punishment for Schuyler Colfax

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-06-08 09:48pm

The vote is now closed. With 42 votes recorded out of 54 Active Senators we have a quorum to conduct business. Per the OP and vote rules we shall evaluate each punishment in succession:

Perma Ban: 14 total votes in favor out of 36 non-abstentions. The measure does NOT have a supermajority and fails.

Temp Ban: 17 votes in favor and 11 secondary preferences. The measure hold 28 votes out of 36 non-abstentions and carries a majority the measure PASSES.

If the appropriate Admin could enact a TempBan a seperate thread will be opened for discussion in regards to length.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

Locked