Last survivor of Jutland set for scrap

[Lonestar]

The UK Military Times

Save HMS Caroline: the last survivor of the Battle of Jutland

Strange isn’t it? If you want a good historical day out, you can see innumerable abbeys, castles, cathedrals, and charming Medieval towns and villages.

The country is littered with stately homes, and there are more museums and galleries than you can shake a stick at. Megaliths, barrows, hillforts, henges, and goodness knows what else lurk behind every hedgerow.
But historic warships? Forget it.

Unless, that is, you live within range of Dundee, Leith, Hartlepool, London, Chatham, or Portsmouth. Of all the thousands of warships that protected our shores, convoyed our wealth, projected our power, and imposed the Pax Britannica, almost nothing survives for the public to see and experience. A meagre total of 13 major ships represent five centuries of British sea-power. Moreover, no grand plan has gone into their choice: it is as if 13 buildings had been chosen randomly to represent all of the country’s built heritage.

How has this bizarre situation come about? Perhaps the lack of anything closely resembling a public policy for the heritage in Britain combined with a kind of snobbish elitism that unerringly values a Titian above a Dreadnought. How many ships does English Heritage care for? None. CADW? None. Historic Scotland? None. I could go on. They all equate heritage with buildings, collections, and archaeological sites.

That anything survives at all is down to the enthusiasm, drive, energy, and, sometimes, sheer dottiness of dedicated individuals who have tried to save something from the wreck. And wreck it has been. We were still blowing up 18th century warships as late as 1947.
These people have taken chances. Without them, only HMS Victory and HMY Britannia would have survived – there was even a plan to break up HMS Victory shortly after the celebration of the centenary of Trafalgar! Then, just when you think that the loss of a great historic warship could not happen again, you discover that it is about to.

HMS Caroline is a light cruiser, a greyhound of the seas. Built in 1914, she served throughout the First and Second World Wars. She is the last survivor of the Battle of Jutland, and the last major ship to survive from the Grand Fleet. To stand on her bridge, with her tripod mast towering above you, is an unforgettable experience; and it is equally extraordinary to explore her galley, fitted out in 1914, or to sit in the doctor’s surgery, or to walk into her steering flat. She has the only in situ First World War turbines in the world, indeed, 80 percent of HMS Caroline is original. Not only is she the most important warship still unprotected in Britain, she comes close to the top of the list of the world’s ten warships that should be protected at all costs.

So, a cosy retirement for HMS Caroline as a visitor attraction, then? Not so. In the run up to the to the commemoration of the centenary of the First World War, the Navy has decided to decommission HMS Caroline as of 31 March 2011 – and turn her into razor blades. HMS Caroline is the last of her kind, all other venerable ships of her significance are long gone.

Built like a tank and in good condition for a ship of her age, all that is needed is a stay of execution long enough to complete arrangements already in hand to find her a safe harbour – whether in Belfast, where she is currently berthed, or elsewhere around the British Isles.

But time is running out, and fast. Certainly, historic ships are expensive to maintain. But we have so few. We must find a way to preserve our nautical heritage for future generations. So, let’s save HMS Caroline from the scrap-heap, for this is our last chance to gaze upon the like of her

It always blew my mind that the UK is so, well, not into preserving warships. At least not compared to the US(cue folks going "The US is more militaristic than it would like to admit"). I suppose there isn't much I as an American can do....

[Lonestar]

Whoops, can someone wrap that link for me?

[Zinegata]

Preserving ships and other items/places of historical interest requires money - which isn't always available. The 18th century warship that was scrapped in 1947 (HMS Implaccable, I believe) was actually a survivor of Trafalgar - originally a French-built man-of-war. Due to austerity measures in 1947 they decided to scuttle her, and all attempts to raise money to save her (including offering the French to save the only French-made man-of-war left in the entire world) fell through.

Hilariously, when they attempted to scuttle her (while flying both an English and French flag) the ship refused to sink after the scutting charges were set off, as the ship was made of wood. I think they actually ended up spending more money chopping her down to bits than it would have cost to keep her around for a bit longer.

Regardless, lack of money is why Warspite, Enterprise, and a large number of other notables never got the chance to become a museum ship. Unless money can be raised, the future looks grim for Caroline.

[Sea Skimmer]

Warspite was not a very realistic candidate for preservation; the ship had extensive structural damage that was never repaired. HMS Caroline is in any case almost certainly already doomed; the timeframe for disposal is just too short to organize anything. The only hope is someone who already has money simply appearing. Failing that I hope someone at least buys thirty tons of the scrap and sells it in small pieces to collectors. It’s fucking mad to just destroy this ship at a time when just THREE Great War veterans are left in the world but hey, it is an RN tradition. The way things are going tradition and two CV hulls are all they are going to have left soon.

[Zinegata]

Well, Mikasa was sunk, refloated, and bombed several times. But she's still around as the prize of the Japanese historical ship collection.

When there's a will and a massive pocket book, there's a way.

It is interesting how the RN tends to treat its retired ships rather poorly - almost as a tradition. Virtually every veteran of Trafalgar (Victory exempted) was gone just 20 years or so after the battle, and the only reason holdouts like Implacable survived was because they were converted to non-combat roles.

[Skgoa]

Why would preserving them even be a goal worthy of it's cost?

[HMS Sophia]

.... History?
Why do we keep artefacts? to remember..
It was fucking Jutland, the last great Naval battle, the last true meeting of fleets at war.
While the outcome was dubious, the simple event deserves to be remembered, and to preserve a ship that was there is part of that.
It should be turned into a museum ship or similar, commemorating the battle and WW1 as a whole.

[CaptHawkeye]

.... History?
Why do we keep artefacts? to remember..
It was fucking Jutland,

the last great Naval battle,

the last true meeting of fleets at war.

Look no one thinks Jutland was was exactly a forgettable day but it sure as hell wasn't anything you say here. I mean, "last great naval battle"? Yeah ok. Quit gushing for a second and take a look at the reality. It was definitely an under rated battle that did more good than harm for Britain. But at the end of the day the battle ultimately just re-affirmed what everyone already knew. IE: The British Navy was running the seas and their was nothing Germany could do about it. In terms of anything else their was nothing special about it except for how unbelievably disorganized both sides were.

[Captain Seafort]

Look no one thinks Jutland was was exactly a forgettable day but it sure as hell wasn't anything you say here. I mean, "last great naval battle"? Yeah ok. Quit gushing for a second and take a look at the reality. It was definitely an under rated battle that did more good than harm for Britain. But at the end of the day the battle ultimately just re-affirmed what everyone already knew. IE: The British Navy was running the seas and their was nothing Germany could do about it. In terms of anything else their was nothing special about it except for how unbelievably disorganized both sides were.

Nonetheless, he has a point - it was the last true fleet action between battleships, even if said action did consist of the Germans crapping themselves and then running.

[Thanas]

Hey now.

They valiantly retreated after blowing up some British Battlecruisers.

[HMS Sophia]

Look no one thinks Jutland was was exactly a forgettable day but it sure as hell wasn't anything you say here. I mean, "last great naval battle"? Yeah ok. Quit gushing for a second and take a look at the reality. It was definitely an under rated battle that did more good than harm for Britain. But at the end of the day the battle ultimately just re-affirmed what everyone already knew. IE: The British Navy was running the seas and their was nothing Germany could do about it. In terms of anything else their was nothing special about it except for how unbelievably disorganized both sides were.

Whatever. How does that change anything about what I said? It was the last meeting of true battlefleets, and it was the last major combat at sea. Maybe I was waxing a bit lyrical, but excuse me for feeling something about a piece of our fucking history. So piss off.

Also:

Hey now.

They valiantly retreated after blowing up some British Battlecruisers.

And then 'valiantly' spent the rest of the war in port

[Thanas]

Sure, but I doubt anybody would disagree that they as a whole were plagued by less breakdowns at Jutland than the British.

[D.Turtle]

It was the last meeting of true battlefleets, and it was the last major combat at sea. Maybe I was waxing a bit lyrical, but excuse me for feeling something about a piece of our fucking history. So piss off.

Good thing there was no Pacific War in World War 2.

[HMS Sophia]

Ok, meeting of battlefleets including battlecruisers and battleships... happy now? It was the last time battleships fought other battleships, and that goes down as a a day worth remembering.

Sure, but I doubt anybody would disagree that they as a whole were plagued by less breakdowns at Jutland than the British.

I'm not going to disagree with that one. They also had better communications between ships.

[Thanas]

Ok, meeting of battlefleets including battlecruisers and battleships... happy now? It was the last time battleships fought other battleships, and that goes down as a a day worth remembering.

Washington vs Kirishima would be the last pure battleship action in history.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sure, but I doubt anybody would disagree that they as a whole were plagued by less breakdowns at Jutland than the British.

Depends on what you mean by breakdowns. German fleet had quite a few heavy guns put out of action by mechanical faults, Von Der Tann particularly had problems with this IIRC. Issues like this have simply been obscured by the British failure to observe proper ammunition handling procedures leading to the infamous explosions.

[HMS Sophia]

Well didn't I just drop the ball :p
My bad, I give that one. Still an important day, at least in Atlantic history

[HMS Sophia]

Issues like this have simply been obscured by the British failure to observe proper ammunition handling procedures leading to the infamous explosions.

This is silly, since the Germans had exactly the same problem until only a few months before, until they suffered similar catastrophic damage and made changes.

[Thanas]

Sure, but I doubt anybody would disagree that they as a whole were plagued by less breakdowns at Jutland than the British.

Depends on what you mean by breakdowns. German fleet had quite a few heavy guns put out of action by mechanical faults, Von Der Tann particularly had problems with this IIRC. Issues like this have simply been obscured by the British failure to observe proper ammunition handling procedures leading to the infamous explosions.

I was actually talking more about signal failures.

[CaptHawkeye]

Whatever. How does that change anything about what I said? It was the last meeting of true battlefleets, and it was the last major combat at sea. Maybe I was waxing a bit lyrical, but excuse me for feeling something about a piece of our fucking history. So piss off.

This would be great if anyone gave a shit about what you think. Maybe you should try....not being whiny someday?

Issues like this have simply been obscured by the British failure to observe proper ammunition handling procedures leading to the infamous explosions.

Hence the ridiculousness of the whole "lol shit battlecruisers" myth. The design of Fast Battleships seems to owe a lot more to BCs than to Super Dreadnoughts. But nah BCs suck or something for reasons that are literally just because Beatty was the dumbest motherfucker in the RN.

[Zinegata]

The last battleship vs battleship action was actually the Battle of Surigao Strait, which was in large part HIJMS Yamashiro vs basically the entire battleship line sunk/damaged at Pearl Harbor (led by West Virginia). Destroyers were in the mix at Surigao Strait and sank far more ships than the battleships, but DD's were also in the mix at Jutland and it was a British destroyer that sank the only German battleship lost in the battle (a pre-dread).

Caroline itself isn't actually hugely historically notable, certainly not as notable as Victory, Warspite, Mikasa, or Enterprise. But as the last Light Cruiser she is a sort of historical oddity that's good for historical curiosity.

[Zinegata]

Sure, but I doubt anybody would disagree that they as a whole were plagued by less breakdowns at Jutland than the British.

Depends on what you mean by breakdowns. German fleet had quite a few heavy guns put out of action by mechanical faults, Von Der Tann particularly had problems with this IIRC. Issues like this have simply been obscured by the British failure to observe proper ammunition handling procedures leading to the infamous explosions.

I was actually talking more about signal failures.

Beatty was infamous for shitty signalling, albeit I do agree also that the Brits seem to have suffered a lot more mechanical problems and blunders than the Germans.

Also, if I recall right the main reason VDT stopped firing was because she took a hit that knocked out her guns. I dunno about the main German line.

[Lonestar]

Washington vs Kirishima would be the last pure battleship action in history.

What was the Battle of Surigao Strait? Chopped liver?

EDIT: Whoops, I see that it was caught.

[Thanas]

Washington vs Kirishima would be the last pure battleship action in history.

What was the Battle of Surigao Strait? Chopped liver?

I completely bungled the ship names up. I mean the Battle of Surigao Strait.

Yes, knowledge fail after no sleep does happen.

[Zinegata]

Surigao Strait was more of a "massacre" rather than a battle, so a lapse is acceptable :p.

Kirishima at least got to shoot up the South Dakota before Washington smothered her.