SD+SB in Middle Earth

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Post by His Divine Shadow » 2003-02-12 10:55am

Mr Bean wrote:KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!
Well fuck you too.

Jesus fucking christ...
Helm's Deep could easily be held with less than fourty men(Assuming we train the defenders in the use of Pooring burning liquids on anything that gets vaugly close)
It'd be even simpler to trap and gas them.
Doesn't take much more knowhow than to throw a can of the gas at them, and they are in a confined area, alot quicker and simpler than your idea, it doesn't take a genius to make explosives, and we got people who can make mustard gas.

We're not a real army so therefore acting like one is fucked in the head, guerilla tactics are much better, no direct combat.

Nor do I see a single reason why one would to keep Helms deep, it's a piece of shit place, what we want to do is to kill orcs.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2003-02-12 10:56am

Just a reminder to all the people talking about tanks, artillery, gunships, and APC's: we don't have any of that stuff. All we've got is Hummers and direct-fire weapons like machine-guns and grenade launchers, and we do not have an infinite supply of ammo. So we have to think strategically, rather than attempting to storm in there and crush them with one blow, hence the more cautious plans advocated by myself and several others.
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Re: SD+SB in Middle Earth

Post by Thunderfire » 2003-02-12 10:56am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Seriously, this is complete overkill. That's nineteen years. In nineteen years just IDMR and I alone (We've speculated on things like this before) could have Gondor and Rohan equipped with fusils, wheelock pistols and cannon, with well-drilled mass muster armies. Most of the required technology is there.
No it isn't building cannons takes alot of practice. Some people in austria
have tried to build a colonial bronze cannon several times. They failed every
time. Building such cannons is an art. We simply lack the experience to
do it. The ability to build these cannons is lost in modern times.

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Post by His Divine Shadow » 2003-02-12 10:58am

Darth Wong wrote:Just a reminder to all the people talking about tanks, artillery, gunships, and APC's: we don't have any of that stuff. All we've got is Hummers and direct-fire weapons like machine-guns and grenade launchers, and we do not have an infinite supply of ammo. So we have to think strategically, rather than attempting to storm in there and crush them with one blow, hence the more cautious plans advocated by myself and several others.
Yes, therefore stuff like chemcial weapons is to be advocated, imagine if you'd had mustard gas at helms deep.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2003-02-12 10:58am

PS. After viewing the tough-guy posturing and "tactics, not strategy" approach of the SB thread, I can only say that it would be best if none of those guys are in any position of authority during this campaign.
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Re: SD+SB in Middle Earth

Post by Darth Wong » 2003-02-12 11:00am

Thunderfire wrote:No it isn't building cannons takes alot of practice. Some people in austria have tried to build a colonial bronze cannon several times. They failed every time. Building such cannons is an art. We simply lack the experience to do it. The ability to build these cannons is lost in modern times.
What on Earth are you talking about? We can build a great variety of cannons with modern technology. Are you simply saying we can't precisely duplicate a particular style of cannon because we've lost the tricks they used to get around things like the use of bronze instead of steel? Who cares? We'll use steel!
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Post by Mr Bean » 2003-02-12 11:13am

Well fuck you too.

Jesus fucking christ...
Its called KISS
Keep it simple Stupid
I'm trying to remind you we don't have infintie supplies nor do we have infinte time nor men, Rigging the Cliffs to blow is iffy, besides possible faliure and and possible ineffectivness(What if the Musterd Gas does not work? What if their are high winds that day?) on one or two things
Second unless you know of some SB Demolitions experts we don't have anyone with the nessary knowledge to cave in Mountian-sides(Nevermind how to get out after the fact) nor possible the amount of expolives nessary to do the deed to begin with

I'm not insulting HDS, I'm simply remind you of the fundemntal rule of military planing which is KISS

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Post by Mr Bean » 2003-02-12 11:15am

PS. After viewing the tough-guy posturing and "tactics, not strategy" approach of the SB thread, I can only say that it would be best if none of those guys are in any position of authority during this campaign.
And the fact one of the two leaders suggestied was IXJac did not tip you off to that? :P
Remeber the quote Wong, you had it in your sig for awhile

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Post by Admiral Valdemar » 2003-02-12 11:24am

The whole stuff before in my posts was mainly thinking out loud, really the plan here is a lot simpler in areas, .50 cals at Helm's Deep will work wonders.

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Post by phongn » 2003-02-12 11:37am

Darth Wong wrote:PS. After viewing the tough-guy posturing and "tactics, not strategy" approach of the SB thread, I can only say that it would be best if none of those guys are in any position of authority during this campaign.
Notice that virtually everyone who's posturing there has no military experience ;)

The rest are mostly deciding on which weapons to outfit the crew with, except a few idiots amongst them (Laird, BigBryan who'd probably be shot within moments).
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Post by phongn » 2003-02-12 11:41am

Mr Bean wrote:
PS. After viewing the tough-guy posturing and "tactics, not strategy" approach of the SB thread, I can only say that it would be best if none of those guys are in any position of authority during this campaign.
And the fact one of the two leaders suggestied was IXJac did not tip you off to that? :P
Remeber the quote Wong, you had it in your sig for awhile
AFAIK, IXJac is one of the few people with any long amount of military experience (and a large number of posts) on SB - he's in the Canadian Forces reserve. In the original thread, he'd probably be better than anyone else to lead.
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Post by phongn » 2003-02-12 11:42am

Mr Bean wrote:Second unless you know of some SB Demolitions experts we don't have anyone with the nessary knowledge to cave in Mountian-sides(Nevermind how to get out after the fact) nor possible the amount of expolives nessary to do the deed to begin with
PainRack pretty much said no to that idea with some fool brought it up (based on his experience as a conscript in Singapore).
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Post by phongn » 2003-02-12 11:47am

As far as grenade launchers, we may not even have those (they're static on the base) IIRC, we're limited to GPMGs, rifles, shotguns, SMGs and pistols. I think they implied that something like the M203 was right out - certainly the same with the M2.
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Post by Sir Sirius » 2003-02-12 11:54am

Thunderfire wrote:Moral: Lack of combat experience means that we will loose battles unless we fight defensly all the time. Lost battles = moral goes to hell. I think we will hide in out fortress after a few battles.
What the fuck?
We'd be armed with assault rifles, light and heavy machine guns and granade launchers while our opponents would be basically medieval armies armed with swords, pikes, bows and stuff. And you belief that we would lose? :lol: That's just silly.
Do you have any idea what a single .50 cal Browning will do to an advancing orcish army?
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Post by Mr Bean » 2003-02-12 11:54am

We get Saw's don't we? I know my Captentry well enough, we can improvise turret housings for them at least

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Post by His Divine Shadow » 2003-02-12 12:08pm

Mr Bean wrote:I'm trying to remind you we don't have infintie supplies nor do we have infinte time nor men, Rigging the Cliffs to blow is iffy, besides possible faliure and and possible ineffectivness(What if the Musterd Gas does not work? What if their are high winds that day?) on one or two things Second unless you know of some SB Demolitions experts we don't have anyone with the nessary knowledge to cave in Mountian-sides(Nevermind how to get out after the fact) nor possible the amount of expolives nessary to do the deed to begin with

I'm not insulting HDS, I'm simply remind you of the fundemntal rule of military planing which is KISS
It wouldn't require any real manpower or supplies beyond what any other plan would require, what it would require is mustard gas and explosives in huge amounts.
And It's a valley surrounded by high mountains right? Winds ought to be mostly irrelevant.

We don't really have to cave in any mountains either, though I fail to see how hard it could be, we could just barricade the exit with the defenses one would put at Helms Deep instead, or atleast the basics, guns and stuff to keep them pinned down while the gas does it's job.

As a bonus one could fill the thing

And I'm pretty sure the mustard gas will work, it's not a bio-agent, but a chem agent, it burns stuff.
Also, as I've heard mentioned in this thread, we got years on us to do this shit, and the foresight of whats to happen.

I don't see how it gets much simpler than this, and would not require any real fighting either, it'd be more along the lines of a malevolent engineering project, and we got our malevolent engineer don't we *points to wong*?
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Re: SD+SB in Middle Earth

Post by Thunderfire » 2003-02-12 12:08pm

Darth Wong wrote: What on Earth are you talking about? We can build a great variety of cannons with modern technology. Are you simply saying we can't precisely duplicate a particular style of cannon because we've lost the tricks they used to get around things like the use of bronze instead of steel? Who cares? We'll use steel!
With modern technology. We have to work with medival technology
there. Middle Earth lacks the infrastructure to do it. Building cannons
there requires knowledge about medival/colonial cannon manufactoring
methods.

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Post by Shinova » 2003-02-12 12:09pm

Let's build a nuke!!

Oh wait, there's no Plutonium. *sigh*


I think everyone has covered just about everything on what to do strategically and tactically.

Will it pull off? Depends on whether we can keep our act together---I think that's the more important question rather than what hardware we can put together and what we can do with them.

I predict at least half of the SB populace will turn on each other like rabid dogs...or not, depending on whether Tron can intimidate them enough into obedience :D

Either way, even this board has the capability to splinter (hint hint, Weekend of Hell).
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Post by His Divine Shadow » 2003-02-12 12:10pm

phongn wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:Second unless you know of some SB Demolitions experts we don't have anyone with the nessary knowledge to cave in Mountian-sides(Nevermind how to get out after the fact) nor possible the amount of expolives nessary to do the deed to begin with
PainRack pretty much said no to that idea with some fool brought it up (based on his experience as a conscript in Singapore).
No on what?

Also, who exactly said we would be inside the valley?
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Post by His Divine Shadow » 2003-02-12 12:12pm

Really, I'm all for the mustard gas, I think could make any number of variations on that angle that'd be efficient, I just liked the idea of using helms deep since it's so constricted, it'd be like a gas chamber.
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Post by NecronLord » 2003-02-12 12:17pm

Shit... someone bring a generator... prefrably nuclear, but as that's doubtless unavailable then bring a few portable short duration ones. What we will find useful is .... electrified fencing.... (I've been reading day of the triffids again)

And A bio lab. We have a few biologists, ok, AV how'd you like to make Orc specific black death?
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Post by Durandal » 2003-02-12 12:26pm

Does "fully-functional military base" include any sort of power plants? Our electronics aren't going to be running on hopes and dreams. We need some method of power generation.

Given that this base will be the only thing consuming the plant's power, I think it'd be feasible to dam up a river, if we have one near us, or use wind power if we're on a plain. Of course, we could also use any available timber for fuel.
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Post by Alyeska » 2003-02-12 12:36pm

I think thats enough SB bashing in here. Painrack is currently in the military as is IXJac. They both have practical experience. Laird wanting a G36 is nothing worth calling him an idiot. The only idiot who posted at SB was Bryan because he thought people would blindly follow him.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar » 2003-02-12 12:37pm

NecronLord wrote:Shit... someone bring a generator... prefrably nuclear, but as that's doubtless unavailable then bring a few portable short duration ones. What we will find useful is .... electrified fencing.... (I've been reading day of the triffids again)

And A bio lab. We have a few biologists, ok, AV how'd you like to make Orc specific black death?
A bioweapon would take time, but give me something of a lab and some samples of bacteria and I'm sure we could come up with a pathogen for orcs and Uruk-hai. It would be a long term thing, but it would inevitably mop up the major populations so we won't be fighting legions of the things forever.

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Post by Admiral Valdemar » 2003-02-12 12:40pm

Durandal wrote:Does "fully-functional military base" include any sort of power plants? Our electronics aren't going to be running on hopes and dreams. We need some method of power generation.

Given that this base will be the only thing consuming the plant's power, I think it'd be feasible to dam up a river, if we have one near us, or use wind power if we're on a plain. Of course, we could also use any available timber for fuel.
Do we not get any diesel generators? Perhaps some solar cells would do for a start, at least it's renewable but not too effective.

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