SD+SB in Middle Earth

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Post by weemadando »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Its amazing how differently this thread is running compared to the one over at SB
Got a link for the SB version?
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Post by Xon »

weemadando wrote: Got a link for the SB version?
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=44467
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Post by Edi »

Whee! Despite my low postcount, I get to be included! I knew being in the military was good for something... :wink:

I'll give my input here. Mike's covered a lot of it very well, so I'll go with just adding some items to his list (in orange):
AdmiralKanos wrote:In all seriousness, we would have to think logically and sequentially:
  1. Secure a perimeter. Clear out a large area around the base. Use deforestation if necessary in order to clear lines of fire for the defensive weapons. In this way, we ensure that the base cannot be directly attacked.
  2. Secure sources of food and water. All the firepower in the world won't do you a damned bit of good if you starve to death. Given the length of time we're in field (at least one year, and possibly many years), this is not a trivial concern at all. We must be self-sufficient, so we need to dig for water and learn to be farmers. Living off MRE's inside the base would be crazy; they will run out eventually, and we would need them for siege situations (although our vastly superior weapon range would mitigate the effect of a siege). We should also learn to hunt, mainly small game with traps, e.g. rabbit nooses. No using firearms for that, because we need the ammo, unless there's a substantial quantity of bird shot for the shotguns. We need meat for our diet too.
  3. Convert all of the vehicles to run on methanol. Unless we plan to drill for oil, we're going to run out of gasoline pretty damned quickly, particularly with all the recon we have to do. We should also acquire some horses and learn to care for them (from some locals if nobody in the group knows anything about caring for horses). You can cover a lot of ground on horseback and you're a lot less conspicuous than such vehicles, and it will conserve fuel. I'd like to stay unnoticed by Saruman and Sauron for as long as possible just in case. We're very few in number, and despite all the advanced weapons and stuff, we're still vulnerable enough.
  4. Perform extensive recon of surrounding areas, using Hummers for mobility. Look specifically for enemy troops (obviously) and human settlements. We will need to forge lines of communication with existing human settlements for various logistical and strategic reasons. This would somewhat depend on base location, because if it's in the middle of mountains, the vehicles will be of limited usefulness. Of course, if we get to pick the base site, this is not an issue.
  5. Women: like it or not, the vast majority of the people on this base will be men, and one year at a minimum is a pretty long time to go without female companionship. Unless Kelly and Zaia and the handful of other females are willing to take on 300 men, there would be a serious gender imbalance. This is yet another reason to work closely with neighbouring human settlements. Indeed. This is a serious issue because it would likely tear the group apart out of frustration in short order if unaddressed.
  6. Advisory activity: we could exponentially improve our strategic position by giving some of our knowledge to the locals. Much as American special forces often function in an advisory capacity to local forces, we would try to do the same. We'd need to be close enough to populations of large enough size for this to be effective. Rohan or perhaps the Plains of Rhûn, or north near Erebor and the Dale and the Iron Hills. Must remember, most of the East and South is under Sauron's influence, and they could stamp us out.
  7. And now, we can finally look at various tactics relating to direct assaults, weapons, etc.
I would say that when the time comes for Frodo to embark on his fellowship, he'll make much better ground on a Hummer than he would on foot. A heavily armed vehicular convoy could bypass most of the problems we saw in the LOTR trilogy, while an attack on Isengard with explosives and demolition of the dam would wipe out Saruman's forces. Saruman himself could be taken out by a sniper.

As for the Ring, I would adopt Ando's suggestion to try destroying it using extremely hot-burning materials and powerful corrosive agents rather than wasting time on this quest. Even if the Ring has some magical enchantment which keeps it from getting the slightest scratch until it finally pops, we know it's a simple matter of being "hot enough", and thermite burns pretty fucking hot. We probably have magic indestructibility factor unless special condition X (toss into Orodruin) is fulfilled. Otherwise there wouldn't be much point to this exercise, would there? Sure, we could try, but it feels to me like it'd be against the 'rules' and wouldn't work.

If that doesn't work, I would advocate massive deployment of chemical weapons against Sauron's main base of power, in order to cause massive casualties in his army. Let's face it; despite some fanboy claims, he's simply not that formidable without his army. Agreed. Orcs don't exactly deserve much mercy if any at all, and it'd help in getting the job done, as well as saving a lot of human lives.

Mind you, with several present and former military officers in the group, we would have to see if they can generate a better plan.
I already touched on base location, that's an important one. If we want it somewhere close to all the main events, it'd have to be in Rohan or just north of it near Fangorn and Lorien. Goodbye secrecy in this case, that's too close to both Dol Guldur (leveled, but I would not count on it being uninhabited by Sauron's creatures) and Isengard, so both Sauron and Saruman would know of us in short order. Perhaps if it were somewhere in the White Mountains, tucked out of sight in some small vale but within reach of settlements (either Gondorian or Rohirrim), this would be mitigated. If we place it someplace in Eriador, e.g. the coast, we'll be a long way from anywhere meaningful. Base location determines a lot of what we'll be able to do and how effectively, and will also have a direct effect on how much troops we'll need to dedicate to guarding it and our assets while we have missions, and that will determine how many people will be available for said missions, and that will determine what sort of missions we'd be able to perform.

Once we had enough explosives and other stuff like that from the lab, one big priority should be to convince Denethor (the Steward of Gondor) to lend supporting troops for an assault on Minas Morgul and raze it to the ground, thus denying Sauron one of his key fortresses and supply depots on the Gondorian border. That'd force his armies to use a much longer supply line from Nurn through Gorgoroth and Udun. Or alternatively a longer route through Khand and Near Harad around the mountains and coming up along the border of Ithilien (where they'd be exposed to raids from Gondor with impunity because Minas Morgul would be gone).

If we could also destroy Cirith Ungol and possibly Morannon that would further cripple Mordor. Saruman could be taken care of by just allying with the ents and helping them blow up the dam.

Thing is, despite superior weaponry and mobility, there's just three hundred of us, and we've only got limited resources, one of which is surprise that will be gone after the first few engagements, so we'll need to make every blow count. Best way would be to convince the regional powers (Gondor, Rohan, Rivendell, Lorien, Erebor & Dale & the Elves of Mirkwood) to perform attacks where we could function as the decisive factor and thus get large, long term strategic gains. No use going after every single band of orcs that happen by, we'd be short of ammo far too soon. I'll see what others come up with before posting more.
Shinova wrote:Only problem with that is we might piss off the ents.
There are ents only in Fangorn forest that we know of. As long as our base is not smack in the middle of Fangorn, I don't think there'd be much problems, but putting it in the middle of a forest isn't a good idea. We'd have to cut a road for the vehicles, which is a dead giveaway, and would take time. We're not talking parkland forests here, but good oldfashioned forests ala medieval Europe, where you could go faster on foot than on horseback in many cases, to say nothing of vehicles like Hummers.

Edi[/quote]
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Re: SD+SB in Middle Earth

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

phongn wrote:After reviewing a thread on SB, I'll put a similar one here with modification and see what ya'll think.

The top 200 posters on SB, the top 75 posters here on SD and anyone with military experience from either are sent to Middle Earth around TA 3000 (one year before the beginning of FOTR). The main war does not begin until TA 3018.

Assume, for a moment, that we do not immediately kill each other (except BigBryan and Laird).
Present there is a large-sized military base, with .50 cal machine guns and 40mm grenade launchers fixed in armored towers with vast ammo stores that cannot be removed. There are thick concrete walls and a trench, which is spanned by a drawbridge.

Inside are ample barracks and training facilities, a well-stocked medical clinic, a fully functional chemistry lab with supplies, a library of pertinent books, and 150 of the various unarmed versions of the Hummer (tanker, truck,).

Munitions are comprised of a massive supply of rations, uniforms, body armor, fuel, and the following ammo types: 9mm NATO, .40 S&W, 7.62mm NATO, and 5.56mmm NATO, as well as various 12ga shotgun shells.

All those teleported get to choose a pistol and a SMG, Pump-action shotgun, or rifle, but they have no ammo other than that listed above. People who are experienced with firearms may additionally bring a SAW or M60, as well as their personal weapons. They can carry one backpack each. They are automatically immunized to any middle-earth diseases, cured of any current infectious diseases, and know Westron fluently with decent Sindarin. Command is shared by IXJac and Painrack, as they actually have some military experience.

The objective: Neutralize Saruman's forces, and distract the forces of Mordor long enough for the Fellowship to sneak in. Any who completes this operation will recieve a doubled life expectancy (triple for the commanders), treasure, and the ability to return home if you desire.

What do you bring, and how well do we do?
Hey, that's no fair. I know how to make corned blackpowder but I'd barely be in the top 100 if you removed the military posters from that.

Seriously, this is complete overkill. That's nineteen years. In nineteen years just IDMR and I alone (We've speculated on things like this before) could have Gondor and Rohan equipped with fusils, wheelock pistols and cannon, with well-drilled mass muster armies. Most of the required technology is there. The only concern would be in commanding one, as having read a few military masters casually is hardly a comparison to proper experience.

But: Any few individuals, who had examples of their technology and a good working knowledge of government and of the basis of that technology, could probably work their way into local power structure, suggest improvements and introduce advancements, and do quite well.

An entire base like described? You could cultivate the local humans as allies and very quickly aide in bringing up their technology, and make alliances with the kingdoms and do the same, or, if necessary, make war upon those under Sauron's sway, until a full coalition under good drill with Napoleonic banners showed up at the gates of Mordor.

It wouldn't even be funny: The population of the Middle Earth might be comparatively light, but to support a few thousand Knights you still need a lot of peasants. In fact, I suspect it would like something like the Battle of the Pyramids, except there's a couple of MGs supporting Napoleon's squares.

Sure, you may have less time to prepare as Sauron responds to your presence, but what's the simplest firearm? An Arquebus is essentially a tube of metal - the swedish made them out of a thin piece of copper reinforced with leather at one point, though those didn't last long - with a twisted piece of wrought iron on the side that holds a slow match and can be pulled against the touch-hole. Oh, and a carved wooden stock.

Combine those with pikes and a short-sword and targeter to each man for backup and add rigorous close-order drill and you've already massively increased the fighting potential of even a very small force, and you can grab guys straight out of the fields and run them through training with those kinds of weapons. Nothing fancy required.

Lord Wong is going to be a real title - Archduke of whatever he feels like surveying, because the fate of the Middle Earth is going to be in the hands of whomever runs this base.

My only concern would be if the base doesn't have lathes. They aren't specifically mentioned and someone should ask about this, as it will severely hamper things if it does not. If it does have a few lathes for working on the hummer parts or whatnot, then that base has just conquered the Middle Earth.

Of course, manpower is the main problem, but Cortez usually operated with about six hundred troops and never more than sixteen hundred, and Pizzaro conquered the Inca Empire with less than two hundred. You want to defeat Sauron? In the process you'll be building up your manpower base. Fortunately, of course, the other states who are your allies will play catchup then. OTOH, wise and judicious leadership will help here. The comparison with Pizzaro may be apt:

The technology you can build for the people of the Middle Earth might not be that advanced over their own, but surely what you have is.
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Post by weemadando »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Its amazing how differently this thread is running compared to the one over at SB
Yeah, they're obsessing over how many orcs they could kill with whatever shit they happen to be carrying personally.

We are strategically and tactically planning as a group.

Yet more evidence of the dominance of the glorious SDnetBBS over the facistii scum of SB!
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

weemadando wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Its amazing how differently this thread is running compared to the one over at SB
Yeah, they're obsessing over how many orcs they could kill with whatever shit they happen to be carrying personally.

We are strategically and tactically planning as a group.

Yet more evidence of the dominance of the glorious SDnetBBS over the facistii scum of SB!
Eh. I think you're overgeneralizing it, but there is the fact that a majority of the posts are occupied with killing either Laird or Big Bryan.

What I notice most is 1.) the apparent lack of anyone with militarey training.

2.) the lack of anyone with any substantial scientific background. (Whereas here we have Mike and others suggesting the use of explosives and mustard gas... almost noone has mentioned use of the chemical lab.)
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Post by Edi »

As for command structure, jegs or Guyver would get the top spot, with Rob Wilson, Knife, Coyote, Emperor Ming and the rest of us from the Mess being down the chain from there. Others like Wong and Ossus et al who have a good grasp of tactics and strategy and all the other relevant stuff could well move up the chain by leaps and bounds once they got through basic training, because, let's face it, most of us would need to get in decent shape first. I'm no exception to that, but I'd not have to learn all the basic military stuff from scratch, fortunately.

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Post by Connor MacLeod »

I'll drive the getaway car.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

If you're in the east or the south, just have the military guys drill everyone to proficiency at the base - it would take some time for an army of sufficient size to take it by storm to be mustered - and then break out in the humvees and head for their capital. Capture and interrogate the natives as necessary to find out where it is. Break up local power structures by exploiting local rivalries if necessary - Maybe you can start before leaving.

Keep good order, just remember that individual heroics or breaking and running will get you killed, and go for their capital - And their King. Not capture; I doubt it'll be the same as Mesoamerica, but I suspect the Eastern and Southern lands will be as Tolkien protrayed them, and decapacitating the ruling house will throw them into chaos.

Take their capital and finish off the ruling dynasty's adult males - a child King who can appoint one of you regent would be a smart acquisition - and you may actually survive. Your chances would not be materially worse than those of the Spanish Conquistadors, and you have the rather reasonable excuse of being stuck there against your will and acting in self-defence (not to mention you're not spreading the plague and killing massive portions of the civilian populace).
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Post by Evil Sadistic Bastard »

Well, if we have attack helicopters we could take out the Nazgul and the oliphaunts pretty easily... and the black gates of Mordor could be opened by large quantities of artillery.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Edi wrote:As for command structure, jegs or Guyver would get the top spot, with Rob Wilson, Knife, Coyote, Emperor Ming and the rest of us from the Mess being down the chain from there. Others like Wong and Ossus et al who have a good grasp of tactics and strategy and all the other relevant stuff could well move up the chain by leaps and bounds once they got through basic training, because, let's face it, most of us would need to get in decent shape first. I'm no exception to that, but I'd not have to learn all the basic military stuff from scratch, fortunately.

Edi
Well, nobody signed up for this. Recall the Anabasis? My suggestion would be to let those who want the position of commander, or those who think someone else should have it, state their reasoning of why they, or that person, should be commander, and then have some other people speak up in favour or against it.

Then put it to a vote of the assembled. Whoever has the popular support, obviously, will be obeyed most readily, and that's important in such a situation. Major issues should also be put up to the entire assembled group for a simple majority vote by show of hands/popular acclaim. Some quick bylaws should be written establishing when votes may be proposed and held, and when the currently established chain of command must be obeyed without question.

Said bylaws can also establish the mechanism for letting natives join the assembly.
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Post by Captain tycho »

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Well, if we have attack helicopters we could take out the Nazgul and the oliphaunts pretty easily... and the black gates of Mordor could be opened by large quantities of artillery.
I don't think we get choppers.
But if we did, I could fly em. :twisted:
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Considering that the Nazgul got shot down by bowfire, I doubt they'd be any less sucsceptible to assault-rifle fire. A couple good snipers would take out the Nazgul handily.

Particularily if we get our hands on some incendiaries.
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Post by Mr Bean »

This would almost be fun for me considering I while not a Military Trained Marksmen(Navy does not offer that per say) I am an excellent shot and head to the range three times a week to make sure I still am

Nevermind the fact I still remeber all the Redneck Improv weapons tricks from my younger days(To the point at which with the right tools I can start re-equiping our troops with Flamethrowers :twisted: )


But back to the main point, As long as we force the enemey to engage us in open ground, Mobile Fire teams, composed of MG's, Loaders and a few Close support guys(IE to make sure you not overrun from behind or above) could easily hold off Mordor Armys as long as we have the ammo

Remeber where Frodo Slips and falls outside of the gates of Mordor?? Considering how far out of range that is for Bowmen and even Crossbowmen, then imagin the havok a Five man MG team combined with a pair of Morter Squads could cause from that same position

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Post by Edi »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Edi wrote:As for command structure, jegs or Guyver would get the top spot, with Rob Wilson, Knife, Coyote, Emperor Ming and the rest of us from the Mess being down the chain from there. Others like Wong and Ossus et al who have a good grasp of tactics and strategy and all the other relevant stuff could well move up the chain by leaps and bounds once they got through basic training, because, let's face it, most of us would need to get in decent shape first. I'm no exception to that, but I'd not have to learn all the basic military stuff from scratch, fortunately.

Edi
Well, nobody signed up for this. Recall the Anabasis? My suggestion would be to let those who want the position of commander, or those who think someone else should have it, state their reasoning of why they, or that person, should be commander, and then have some other people speak up in favour or against it.

Then put it to a vote of the assembled. Whoever has the popular support, obviously, will be obeyed most readily, and that's important in such a situation. Major issues should also be put up to the entire assembled group for a simple majority vote by show of hands/popular acclaim. Some quick bylaws should be written establishing when votes may be proposed and held, and when the currently established chain of command must be obeyed without question.

Said bylaws can also establish the mechanism for letting natives join the assembly.
I don't remember Anabasis, whatever the hell that was. Of course it's important to work out a solid decision making structure where there's a popularly decided leader and also some form of council of advisors so that the top man isn't inundated with people pestering him, but I was thinking in terms of this being a military operation (which it is), so obviously those people who have military experience should lead, because they know the stuff. And if they'd not be in charge constantly, they would be unquestionable leaders in the field.

I was just a private in the Finnish Army in my time, but most people in the Mess were at least corporals or sergeants (professional instead of conscripts at that, too), and jegs and Guyver were officers (captains), so I'd put them in charge because they know what it's about and what is needed. I'd also trust myself to be more competent as squad leader than many people who have not had any military experience, but there are some of those who could be better, especially with some basic training. Even if you take the lot of the people in the Mess, that'd mean each would have to command about 13-15 men unless there are more qualified people among the non-mils, or until a basic training period has established who has what it takes. But initially it'd have to run with the top military people in charge.

Once everyone got through the basics and it was shown who is capable of what, that would be a good point to make the final determinations in leadership.

I think we can all agree that Mike would most probably be in charge of the lab, even though someone else would likely lead in the field.

From what I could see in the SB thread... *shudder*

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Post by Chris OFarrell »

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Rob Willson vs Saruman :p



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Post by Edi »

That's hilarious! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by EmperorMing »

I have not seen any artillery mentioned in this scenario exercise...

Might I suggest rocket artillery? No tubes to clean and they would be relatively easy to assemble in the conditions given.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Edi wrote:

I don't remember Anabasis, whatever the hell that was.
The March Up-Country, the story by Xenophon the Athenian of ten thousand Greek mercenaries - of whom he was one of their number - who after the Persian noble had hired them had gotten killed at the battle of Cunaxa, elected (or, literally, voted) to march home from in the middle of modern day Iraq, surrounded by the victorious Persian army, all the way through the hostile Persian Empire to the Bosporus.

About seven out of every ten men made it back to Greece alive. They've been called a "marching democracy", because they elected their own leadership and voted in a popular assembly of all the troops on all the vital issues, just like a normal Greek assembly, except a group of mercenary soldiers marching and fighting their way out of the Persian Empire.
Of course it's important to work out a solid decision making structure where there's a popularly decided leader and also some form of council of advisors so that the top man isn't inundated with people pestering him,
I think a popular assembly would be better. We're at a very small size here. A decent number of the small townships in New England actually still operate just fine like this - All the decisions are made by the entire voting populace getting up and voting on it in a common assembly.

It's a good way to get suggestions and grievances aired and make sure that fairness as a standard is adhered to.
but I was thinking in terms of this being a military operation (which it is), so obviously those people who have military experience should lead, because they know the stuff. And if they'd not be in charge constantly, they would be unquestionable leaders in the field.
Well, considering the military nature of the facility, it might not be unreasonable to have the same chain of command also responsible for day-to-day administration, handling supplies, the labs, and so on. Alternatively, other people could be elected to oversee day-to-day administration. I think however that surely at this stage, and even after some potential growth, an assembly would work just fine - Plato pegged the upper limit at 10,000 voting citizens, and The Ten Thousand were able to handle actually marching around and voting on issues that affected their campaign performance, while still operating as a cohesive army.

This group is much smaller than that, and unless you get surrounding villages to join on and thus become geographically spread out, I don't see why decisions shouldn't be handled by a mechanism for popular vote. I believe it would be the best way to avoid dissension, as long as the rules were clearly established for when the voting was to occur, and when the appropriate commanders were to be obeyed, or where the administrative duties were.

And, yes, the SB thread is sad.
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Post by weemadando »

Darth Wong wrote:
Worse case scenario is that we pull up the drawbridge and introduce the Ents to napalm. It's better than having a base surrounded by thick forest. Of course, this presumes that the base IS, in fact, surrounded by thick forest to begin with. If it's stuck in the middle of a flat plain, this is not an issue.
Personally I'd like the base set up somewhere like Weathertop...

Commanding views and a nice big open killing ground.
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Post by Edi »

Popular assembly for general decision making sounds quite feasible as long as the rules are clear and unambiguous. In the field, CoC.

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Post by weemadando »

Some silly SBer wrote:what's wrong with everyone getting into a Humvee and ramming through Uruk-Hai lines?

rampage!
Errr, I think that in a contest between massed Uruk-hai ranks and a speeding Hummer the Hummer will lose.

[/quote="same silly boy"]I'll just hop into a hum-vee and drive like hell, ramming whatever I like.[/quote]

Damnit, its a Hummer, not a 100 tonne mine truck. Hummer > Troll, atleast in ramming combat. Hummer definately > Olliphant.
I'm ashamed that this guy is an Aussie wrote:Ill be taking a modified M-16 A2 with over-uder M-79 grenade launcher, LAC/R-100 laser sighting system.

Handgun: Ill take a nice dependable Glock.


I'll also take Rambo survival knife.

Ten Inch Blade, shaped like a Bowie knike
Made from 440C stainless steel
Two inches wide
One quater inch thick
One and three quater pounds in weight
Serrated edge
Stainless steel handle, wrapped in 120 pound testweight fishing line
Handle guard extentions: One inch Phillips screwdriver and One inch Flathead screwdriver
Hollow handle, Inside: Magnetic Compass, small folded knife, matches in waterproof container, fishhooks and needle.
What the fuck is he talking about? Over-under M-79? I'd like to see one of them. (Yes, I know he is still referring to an M203, but).

And as for that knife... Goddamn. Someone has a severe case of penis envy.[/quote]
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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Can we not get one chopper, even a MD-500 Defender will do, just chuck the Ring into the volcano (hopefully turbulence from covection currents won't be that bad).

In anycase, the .50 cals will be a good defence at first if we have the ammo.

We are going to need area denial weaponry against vast armies like the Uruk-hai, H&K have lovely computer targetted 40mm grenade launchers that a single man can use with varying munitions from HE to thermate or shrapnel.

I'm also sure a few FAEs would go down well if we could deliver them somehow, I'm unsure, but I think the USMC and Spetsnatz have smaller, rocket propelled devices. They will work wonders against legions of soldiers.
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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Oh yeah, what type of chem weapons? Mustard gas is basic, what about VX?

Would help if we had mechanised arty as well like an AS-90 Abbot or two.
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Vympel
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Post by Vympel »

Give me one T-55. I'll defeat Mordor myself.
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