Something big

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Geforce
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Re: Something big

Postby Geforce » 2012-04-11 12:40pm

hi again,

frac what is about the firepower of all your ships?from ISD1 to Eclipse
can you give us all reactor outputs or in ISDs?

and another question is: your Procursator-class is a "light" star destroyer with 1,2km but the Procursator-class in the book is the big com ship!

how would you solve this problem?rename your little ship?

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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-11 03:42pm

Geforce wrote:hi again,

frac what is about the firepower of all your ships?from ISD1 to Eclipse
can you give us all reactor outputs or in ISDs?

and another question is: your Procursator-class is a "light" star destroyer with 1,2km but the Procursator-class in the book is the big com ship!

how would you solve this problem?rename your little ship?


Latin is a funny thing sometimes; Procurator and Procursator are different words meaning different things. One is an administrative official, the other is a skirmisher.

As for hard numbers, I only have scaling based on reactor size to go on. Let's assume 1e25W per Imperator.

Vigil 1e21W to 5e21W
Procursator 3.7e24W
Allegiance ~ 6e25W
Secutor ~ 2e25W
Bellator 3.3e26W
Assertor 4e27W

***Total speculation follows***
Executor 1-2e27W
Sovereign >1.5e27W
Eclipse 4e27 to 1e28W, but good luck getting it to catch anything

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Re: Something big

Postby Zeta1127 » 2012-04-11 05:13pm

Well, do you think that what Wookieepedia calls the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer is the same class as the Allegiance, they look virtually identical to me. I would also fold in the Shockwave commanded by Admiral Blitzer Harrsk. The only reason they call it an Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer is because the Eclipse's pair of escorts are only ever referred to as Imperial Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers in Dark Empire.

I always thought that calling them an Imperial-class Star Battlecruiser would be a good tie-in to the Imperial Star Battlecruiser from the Imperial Period (similar to the Imperial Star Destroyer nickname for the Imperial-class Star Destroyer), but I also agree with calling them the Allegiance-class Star Battlecruiser to avoid having two starship classes with the same, which is why I hate what Wookieepedia calls the Republic-class cruiser from the New Jedi Order era and beyond, and prefer to tie it to the Republic-class Star Destroyer.

According to Wookieepedia, its the Allegiance-class heavy Star Destroyer, and is less than 2,000 meters in length, both based on the Anaxes War College System.
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-12 11:22am

Zeta1127 wrote:Well, do you think that what Wookieepedia calls the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer is the same class as the Allegiance, they look virtually identical to me. I would also fold in the Shockwave commanded by Admiral Blitzer Harrsk. The only reason they call it an Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer is because the Eclipse's pair of escorts are only ever referred to as Imperial Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers in Dark Empire.

I always thought that calling them an Imperial-class Star Battlecruiser would be a good tie-in to the Imperial Star Battlecruiser from the Imperial Period (similar to the Imperial Star Destroyer nickname for the Imperial-class Star Destroyer), but I also agree with calling them the Allegiance-class Star Battlecruiser to avoid having two starship classes with the same, which is why I hate what Wookieepedia calls the Republic-class cruiser from the New Jedi Order era and beyond, and prefer to tie it to the Republic-class Star Destroyer.

According to Wookieepedia, its the Allegiance-class heavy Star Destroyer, and is less than 2,000 meters in length, both based on the Anaxes War College System.


The Imperator class was renamed Imperial class after the rise of the Empire, which supersedes the old nickname argument. That said, it is definitely no longer appropriate to call any other types "Imperial-class" - those are definitely colloquial.

My Allegiance was based on the ship of the same name at the battle of Mon Calamari in Dark Empire. The Eclipse escorts I'm starting to think are either a variant or a different class. At the very least the superstructure is somewhat divergent between the two. And until it's retconned or superseded by new information, it is the Allegiance class, since Leland Chee was kind enough to put it into the continuity database as such.

Shockwave's class was never clarified in the EU, as far as I know.

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Re: Something big

Postby Captain Seafort » 2012-04-12 01:47pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:The Imperator class was renamed Imperial class after the rise of the Empire, which supersedes the old nickname argument. That said, it is definitely no longer appropriate to call any other types "Imperial-class" - those are definitely colloquial.


Nonetheless, that's what they're explicitly called in the DE audio. Wookie. It's stupid, I know, and the obvious sensible reaction would be to conclude that they were initially misidentified as ISDs when they dropped out of hyperspace. Nonetheless, Wookie's taken the route that they're called Imperial-class, ergo that must be their name.
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-12 01:57pm

Wookie also uses a render of my ISD as the image for their ISD article, and uses random numbers everywhere. I'm not exactly going to trust an endnote without having heard it myself. Does the dialogue explicitly refer to the escorts, the Eclipse, or other ships in company not depicted in the comic itself?

Regardless of the accuracy of the name for the ship in Dark Empire, my ship is called Allegiance.

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Re: Something big

Postby 3dcgmodeler » 2012-04-12 01:57pm

Hello
I am a totally amazed at this thread of yours, WOW, It took me a week to go thru your thread..
And I just am amazed at your level of detal and work on these ships.
I am a big fan now..

Been busy this last year and have some free time and been going thru your thread, and drooling to. :)

Awesome work

And I hope to see more :)

Michael
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Re: Something big

Postby Zeta1127 » 2012-04-12 04:34pm

I have no problems with heavy and light classifications for ships, but they aren't needed for Star Destroyers. Fortunately, it looks like Wookieepedia now realize that heavy and light were just your classifications, and that the Anaxes War College System made some errors, so the length estimates have been discarded, and they are probably going to rename the articles.

I am not arguing that the Imperator-class shouldn't have been renamed the Imperial-class, its a cool fact that shows just how rich the Star Wars galaxy really is, but many ships have been fudge up by poor authors. For example, no one has given concrete information on the ships in Dark Empire for example, until you helped retcon several ambiguous ships.

Wookieepedia has been doing some strange things, like try to glean as much as possible out of things like the Dark Empire audio drama or the Legacy era novel series, while having no problem with their being two classes named Imperial and Republic or the Strident-class Star Defender being so ambiguous, in an attempt to document the Star Wars universe. They still flatly refuse to rename the Eclipse and Sovereign-classes to Star Dreadnoughts, since they have only ever been referred to as SSDs, though that might change with the new Anaxes War College System. I don't have a problem with calling them SSDs colloquially, but they are clearly Star Dreadnoughts until they give me a good reason to call them something else.
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-12 04:44pm

I think the key points to be taken here are that wookiepedia is a) not canon, and b) often wrong.

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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-12 04:52pm

Legacy era TIE Predator:

Image

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Re: Something big

Postby Road_Warrior » 2012-04-12 05:19pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:I think the key points to be taken here are that wookiepedia is a) not canon, and b) often wrong.


Agreed. Wookiepedia is useful as a collection of images....

Looking good, Ansel.

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Re: Something big

Postby Zeta1127 » 2012-04-12 05:39pm

The point is, I knew there was something fishy with what Wookieepedia was doing with the Allegiance-class and your other ships, I am glad that its getting cleared up.

Wookieepedia tries to follow canon explicitly, only taking what is said in Star Wars works at face value, even when it isn't that high quality in first place. Wookieepedia really tries to get it right, that is all they can do, since the continuity people are often unclear or make annoying choices. For example, I still can't stand the Tantive IV dramatic reversal retcon (The Tantive IV always being a CR90, and the Sundered Heart replacing the Tantive IV in Episode III), and this The Clone Wars (TCW) mania.
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"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena.
And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-12 10:38pm

To reinforce what fractal was saying, those images are often heckled and argued over until it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. I truly believe them to be Allegiance-class SDs, which I've always understood to be at least 3k meters in length and definitely within the new Anaxes Navy designations to be referred to as SSDs.
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Re: Something big

Postby Darth Culator » 2012-04-13 03:33pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:I think the key points to be taken here are that wookiepedia is a) not canon, and b) often wrong.

Gotta step in here as a Wookieepedia admin and say that we do the best we can with what we're given. I've always found EU minimalism annoying and illogical, but we're pretty much stuck with it. That being said, Wookieepedia is not the topic of this thread, and I really just want to come in here and suck up to the artist. :P

In the Tommy Lee Edwards Photoshop "art" on page 165, are any of your designs besides the Bellator visible in the window? I thought I saw an Allegiance or two in the full shot it's based on but I can't quite tell for sure if they fit in there. Also, in the other TLE Photoshop job on page 212, is that Bellator (and Procursator? Is that the one furthest in the distance?) part of the New Republic fleet, or are they running away from it? :P

The Nebula/Endurance are just great, that's a mess that has needed to be cleaned up for a LONG time. Any chance those will be posted here or on your website anytime soon? :D
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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-13 03:52pm

I wonder about something. fractal, how long do you believe the Sith Battlecruiser/Victory-class rip off is suppose to be? From what I've seen of it and its similarity to the Victory-class SD, I would assume it to be under 1,000 meters; though its armed well enough that it should stand toe-to-toe with ImpStars.
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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-17 03:25pm

Hey Ansel, I wanted to bring something to your attention: http://jbjhjm.deviantart.com/art/Finish ... -201432300

Did this guy have your mission to use your art? I've already submitted a report to DeviantArt moderators to have them check into it but I wanted you to be aware of its existence as well. Kind of pissed me off when I saw what he had done to the Assertor.
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Re: Something big

Postby =Krieger= » 2012-04-18 01:24am

Abacus wrote:Hey Ansel, I wanted to bring something to your attention: http://jbjhjm.deviantart.com/art/Finish ... -201432300

Did this guy have your mission to use your art? I've already submitted a report to DeviantArt moderators to have them check into it but I wanted you to be aware of its existence as well. Kind of pissed me off when I saw what he had done to the Assertor.


Actually, that isn't fractal's work. I followed that guy modeling that awhile ago on another forum. And as far as I knew, using his ISD as a scale reference was okay'd by Ansel.

To be completely honest, the danger with murderwedges (Star destroyers) is that, in keeping with the basic shape, there's only so many variables you can manage without them all looking the same and simply playing with scale. That design is more different from the Assertor than the ISD from the Allegiance in my opinion.

Side note as to my own 3d startup: Hasn't started up. Been too busy. But I have been creeping on this thread still.

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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-18 10:09am

You do realize that fractal posted his own modeling pics of when he was first rendering the Assertor? Wouldn't be that hard for the guy to save Ansels and use them. Every time I look at the copy-cat image I see where a decent photoshop job changed a few details. Everything about the super structure and frame of the ship is the same as the Assertor. Sure he changed the look of the guns and bridge deflector shields and copy-pasted a jagged edge down the side, but that ship is a pure rip off.
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-18 10:37am

That is an actual model, not a photoshop of the Assertor. Not really my favorite; the numbers attached to it are quite wonky, and the design is too close to the Assertor for comfort, but rest assured he didn't *directly* rip me off.

Nebula WIPs from EGW:
Image
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2012-04-18 10:56am

Darth Culator wrote:Gotta step in here as a Wookieepedia admin and say that we do the best we can with what we're given. I've always found EU minimalism annoying and illogical, but we're pretty much stuck with it. That being said, Wookieepedia is not the topic of this thread, and I really just want to come in here and suck up to the artist. :P

In the Tommy Lee Edwards Photoshop "art" on page 165, are any of your designs besides the Bellator visible in the window? I thought I saw an Allegiance or two in the full shot it's based on but I can't quite tell for sure if they fit in there. Also, in the other TLE Photoshop job on page 212, is that Bellator (and Procursator? Is that the one furthest in the distance?) part of the New Republic fleet, or are they running away from it? :P

The Nebula/Endurance are just great, that's a mess that has needed to be cleaned up for a LONG time. Any chance those will be posted here or on your website anytime soon? :D


No question wookie is quite useful! Some of the article content is definitely controversial, though perhaps that is always intrinsic to the wiki process...

The p165 piece does have a Bellator. See original for background: http://fractalsponge.net/gallery/images/index.html#Strategic%20Reserve.jpg

p212 piece has a Bellator and a Procursator, and I have no idea what they are doing :D.

Nebula just got posted, and there are some numbers attached to it from my notes. I knew that 1.04km was a pretty well established length, so that hasn't changed. What I wanted to figure out was how a ~1.1km multirole ship was competitive with a 1.6km multirole ship with basically the same technology and without specific optimization.

I tried to rationalize the gun armament seen in the latest sourcebook illustrations of the Nebula with this. One super-heavy turbolaser turret (twin 320 teraton) in the center, backed by 4x3 70-teraton Venator-caliber guns and 8x2 32-teraton ISDII caliber weapons. Total throw weight ~2 petatons, vice an ISD's 2.5. Comparable and competitive, especially given the size of the ship, but there were tradeoffs to accomplish this.

Basically with these numbers I came up with the idea that the Nebula designers opted for a very heavy armament on a light, cheap-ish hull in return for worse acceleration, less survivability and reliability, and shorter range compared to an ISD. Classic warship design trade-offs really. In defensive action in-system, a squadron of Nebulas would be competitive with their weight and cost in ISDs, but in a fast-moving action in open space, the ISDs would be superior. I figured that this would be both a realistic technical explanation of the text descriptions comparing Nebula and ISD, and in tune with the known philosophical biases of the New Republic as they were building their central military forces.

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Re: Something big

Postby Raesene » 2012-04-18 12:41pm

My edition (Del Rey Trade paperback) has the maps of the Orinda-campagin on page 212. Do you mean the picture titled New Republic Heroes?

I like your original strategic reserve better, in the book it's blurry.

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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-18 02:45pm

That nebula-class looks fantastic! Any chance to see it up on your website's gallery?
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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-18 03:39pm

Also, Ansel, I was wondering if you had ever considered doing a more modern update on the venerable Dreadnought-class Cruiser. The ship that the Katana Fleet was made up of.
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Re: Something big

Postby Skywalker_T-65 » 2012-04-18 03:44pm

I think we've suggested the Dreadnaught quite a ways back. Nothing ever came of it though, I think it might be on his list though (along with my personal favorite, the Victory).
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Re: Something big

Postby Abacus » 2012-04-18 07:59pm

Skywalker_T-65 wrote:I think we've suggested the Dreadnaught quite a ways back. Nothing ever came of it though, I think it might be on his list though (along with my personal favorite, the Victory).


Victory is a good class of ship, though I always thought the side-wings were a bit...superfluous(?) is I guess the word I'm looking for?
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