Kinnison's last stand

[Darth Wong]

More to the point, he doesn't provide a shred of evidence or any kind of source for anything he says, despite knowing that people on all sides have been demanding that he do so for many pages now. Why should we even dignify Kinnison's "public hospitals are rampant with infections" claim by taking it seriously at all, when it's merely the latest in a long list of claims he appears to have pulled out of thin air? It's also the latest example of a pattern of behaviour where he attacks public hospitals for problems which could exist in equal or greater measure in private hospitals for all he knows; he has clearly never bothered to check.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Back to the OP's premise for a second: I've noticed my sister going Right-Wing Extremist as well the past year or so. She keeps sending me those stupid email forwards best described as 'Barack HUSSEIN Obama is a $DOUBLEPLUSUNGOOD_UNPERSON$' and every last stupid fake crime email in existence, like Burundanga or the Receipt-stuck-in-the-window carjacking trick. She missed the ATM skimmer email, however.

She even told me she tried to go Teabagging ('Tea Party' tax protests wherein the under-$250k 'riff raff' who actually got Obama TAX CUTS did all the legwork for the rich feudalistic slavedriving bastards who actually got theirs hiked; I think you heard something about that last month), but the kids kept her home. Pwn3d. 8)

[Darth Wong]

These chain letters are so goddamned aggravating. Rebecca occasionally shows me one. A while ago, someone sent her one of those "8th grade schoolchildren had a better education in 1890 than they do today" E-mails based on an 8th grade set of final exams, and the person who wrote the E-mail went on about how difficult it would be to answer the exam questions today.

The math exam was 1 hour and 10 questions, and most of the questions were simple unit conversions. I pointed out to her that the questions only seemed difficult because they used unit conversions that we don't commonly use today, like "bushels". That doesn't make education better back then; it just means it was more farm-based and used older units. Moreover, it contained ZERO algebra, and algebra is where you make the transition from primary-school arithmetic to actual mathematics. Since my older son Matthew is in grade 8 right now, I know for a fact that modern schoolchildren must know algebra before graduating grade 8, so the 1890 math exam actually proved the opposite of what the fundie originator thought it proved.

PS. Of course, this means nothing to the average knuckle-dragger fundie because he sucks at math and probably couldn't do algebra himself. Cue the fundie "good old days" mantra.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Yup. That sounds right. Shit like that is a case for strong public education oh wait that's SOCIALISM WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE!? Stupid doublethink. Her saving grace is she's not a religious fundie, just mostly an economic one. Unfortunately, she watches Fixed Noise, so she ends up getting retarded social-conservative bullshit mixed in there too.

[kinnison]

Darth: Thanks for the link with an IE7 certificate violation warning when I attempted to go to it. No thanks. Please excuse me for not wanting to acquire a viral infection; in that your board (or at least that link) is rather like a UK hospital.

The UK health system is an absolute and utter disgrace, regardless of the budget or lack of it allocated to health care in the UK. I have been exposed to it, both vicariously and in person; and I fully realise that the portion of it that I have been exposed to is actually atypical in that it is actually better than most.

Personal exposure; let's start with my first health problem in 1997, a heart attack. Despite telling the staff that my pain was manageable (in fact, I was being pulled in 15 hours after the event having gone to work the morning after - it isn't always as catastrophic as in the movies) I was stuffed full of heroin at the earliest possible opportunity because it was "procedure" to do so.

Scond episode was rather more serious. Diagnosed initially with cancer - but, rather important, the wrong sort. Initial diagnosis of lymphoma when the problem was actually something a lot rarer and with completely different standard treatment. Overheard patients in haematology saying things like "I hope I get Dr. Y not that X idiot" in public; it is apperent that Dr. X's incompetence was apparent even to laypeople; and of course he was still working. Left in ward for 3 weeks without treatment or any tests under "care" of Dr. X; sometime during this time almost lost a leg (or possibly worse) to total occlusion of femoral artery while on ward - only got attention by screaming my head off for an hour or more (not voluntarily). Eventually got appropriate treatment, namely strong anticoagulants.

Transferred some time (week?) later to different hospital because doctor with interest in my case worked there. Immediately given 2 litres of neutral saline because of extreme dehydration (easily detectable by routine observations, apparently); later told that without intervention I could have died that day. In that hospital, got exemplary care.

*** 3 months of competent care follows ***

Near end of chemotherapy; taken into local hospital (same one as employed Dr. X) with extreme blood-clotting problems - discharged after 48 hours. Readmitted after further 24 hours with MRSA septicaemia and 104 deg F fever and delirium, apparently contracted due to being examined by hospital doctor during previous stay because he chose to manipulate an implanted central line without hygienic precautions despite being appraised of situation. Came out a week later with neurological and muscular damage partially caused by septicaemia, walking with the aid of a stick. No after care or physiotherapy prescribed for a further 3 months. 5 months after that, went in for follow-up surgery; was told to report in Manchester (60 miles away from home) on Sunday for surgery on Monday. Seen by anaesthetist on Sunday evening; rather disconcertingly, told that said professional could not review my case because my records were locked up in safe and could not be accessed until Monday. As a result, spent whole of Monday nil by mouth - surgery was 8 hours late.

OK, that's my personal story. Now for the story of my father. It's a lot shorter to relate, although time period was about the same. He was admitted with what turned out to be class IV congestive heart failure in September '08, and moved to a "rehabilitation" hospital 5 weeks later. I was told at least 2 weeks in advance that the move would happen, and there are at least 3 hospitals of the latter nature in my local area. I reminded them that one particular one of them was where his wife (my mother) died, at least 3 times; despite that info, the powers that be decided that he should be moved there for "rehab" - and just for an encore put him in the same bed. He gave up then, and died on Dec 27th last year. It was obvious to all that he had simply given up. The real cause of death was malnutrition - he weighed about 8 stone at a height of 5' 7" when he died.

I conclude that some UK hospitals (not all!) are run by people who don't give a fuck about their patients and in a totally incompetent manner. Blame me for that conclusion? Then to hell with you. And, I repeat; my local health authority is one of the GOOD ones (3 on a 1-3 scale). God help anyone in a class 1 hospital, for nobody else can.

[Stark]

Thanks for the useless anecdotes, which rather than supporting your arguments simply expose your personal and emotional bias. Got any data?

[Intio]

Seconded. I actually thought he was attempting to do something clever, by leading us along with an anecdote and then switching round to a subtle and cever presentation of an argument.

No such luck though. Does he even realise that he has given nothing but personal anecdotes?

[Stark]

Honestly? I'd say he's just trying to be as pompous as possible before Mike bans him for being too stupid to retract or support his weeks of arguments.

[rhoenix]

(I really couldn't resist - this was purely because this thread was HoS'ed and I was tempted with snark)

Darth: Thanks for the link with an IE7 certificate violation warning when I attempted to go to it. No thanks. Please excuse me for not wanting to acquire a viral infection; in that your board (or at least that link) is rather like a UK hospital.

Yes, because certificate issues always lead to viruses. My uncle's sister's former roommate's ex-girlfriend's former postal worker always talked about how "anytime you see an invalid certificate, them hackers are trying to infect your computer...and there is no defense."

(Or there's no link whatsoever between certificate issues on a website and whether or not it has malware - but you'd have to know something about how the Internet works to know that)

The UK health system is an absolute and utter disgrace, regardless of the budget or lack of it allocated to health care in the UK. I have been exposed to it, both vicariously and in person; and I fully realise that the portion of it that I have been exposed to is actually atypical in that it is actually better than most.

Oh yeah, my uncle's sister's former roommate's ex-girlfriend's former postal worker's friend talked all the time about how utterly horrible UK and Canadian and Swedish and other models for universal health care, when compared to the US is a horribly fetid beacon of feces in terms of quality of care, costs, and most other considerations.

(when you don't look up anything and speak from the all-knowing gut instinct when it comes to the facts involved, anyway)

(long, heartfelt rant about healthcare)

Oh I know, my uncle's sister's former roommate's ex-girlfriend's former postal worker talked all the time about doctors howling and throwing mixtures of feces and medicines at people to cure them, urinating on patients, giving them stiff doses of crack cocaine (so they could dance, of course - worked wonders in the disability ward), sexually harassing medical equipment in full view of patients, and other terrible, terrible things. He even wrote down case histories for all of them!

I conclude that some UK hospitals (not all!) are run by people who don't give a fuck about their patients and in a totally incompetent manner. Blame me for that conclusion? Then to hell with you. And, I repeat; my local health authority is one of the GOOD ones (3 on a 1-3 scale). God help anyone in a class 1 hospital, for nobody else can.

Since your personal authority allows you to knight yourself Factually Accurate Keeper of Facts, ordained by the government and royalty of the UK, why stop there? You might as well use your newfound power to settle a couple of other age-old disputes too.

And lest you dodge yet again - this isn't "blaming you for the conclusion." This is "blaming you for being utterly unconvincing at pretending to be HUKT ONN FONX WORKT FFOR ME smart on the Internet."

My uncle's sister's former roommate's ex-girlfriend's former postal worker has lots of medical horror stories, too. Some of them are even kind of inspired by real events.

[Surlethe]

Honestly? I'd say he's just trying to be as pompous as possible before Mike bans him for being too stupid to retract or support his weeks of arguments.

I'll bet he's arguing like he argues in real life. When you're talking with someone face-to-face, you can always whip out the anecdotes, and if the person's not experienced or doesn't have statistics on hand, he'll have trouble saying, "Well, your experience probably isn't indicative of the health care system as a whole" without it coming across as a lame excuse. You have to finesse this sort of rebuttal because, to most audiences, the emotional impact of a story is more significant in making up their minds than a dry, short "hasty generalization fallacy" response. Edit to avoid falling into my own trap: of course, this is all based on my experience (or lack thereof), so take it with a grain of salt.

Of course, here, the way the game is played is different, even if the rules aren't.

[Patrick Degan]

Statistics, Mr. Kinnison —not anecdotes, for which we have no means to verify the bona-fides of. Even if your personal stories are true, they do not in any way, shape, or form construct an accurate picture of the overall state of a health care system, it's performance, and comparative norms with privately-operated institutions.

You do actually comprehend the definition of the word "evidence", do you not?

[Count Chocula]

Stark, Intio, rhoenix, Surlethe, Degan: calm the fuck down and turn down the scorn-o-meter a little why don't you? kinnison is NOT relaying fucking anecdotes, he just described the care his dead mother, dead father, and he received in the British hospital system. His personal experience seems profoundly negative, with accompanying permanent damage. His saying "I recieved x and y and z shitty care, got misdiagnosed, almost died, and need a cane" is testimony and you're shits for dismissing it so cavalierly. If you want to pick at his arguments, which (sorry kinnison) is justified because he has not produced any other data, fine. Consider his experience a datum which needs corroboration.

[Formless]

Chocula, how do you know he didn't just pull all that shit out of his ass? How do you know those experiences are genuine rather than made up? Oh, that's right, you don't. That's why its called an anecdote, imbecile. You have no way of independently verifying them because you aren't Kinnison, which is why they are worthless as evidence.

[Darth Wong]

Stark, Intio, rhoenix, Surlethe, Degan: calm the fuck down and turn down the scorn-o-meter a little why don't you? kinnison is NOT relaying fucking anecdotes, he just described the care his dead mother, dead father, and he received in the British hospital system. His personal experience seems profoundly negative, with accompanying permanent damage. His saying "I recieved x and y and z shitty care, got misdiagnosed, almost died, and need a cane" is testimony and you're shits for dismissing it so cavalierly. If you want to pick at his arguments, which (sorry kinnison) is justified because he has not produced any other data, fine. Consider his experience a datum which needs corroboration.

What are you, fucking retarded? He has repeatedly claimed that government health care will always be less efficient than private health care, with higher overhead costs. He has been repeatedly challenged to back up that claim. He ignored all of those challenges except to post worthless personal anecdotes. I even referenced a study in the New England Journal of Medicine which showed that the overhead costs of the US health care system are three times larger per capita than the overhead costs of the Canadian system. I challenged him several times to address that. I even pointed out the link to him three times. He ignored those challenges as well. I gave him an ultimatum to back up his claims. He did not even attempt to do so: all he did was produce an unverifiable personal anecdote which does not even have any kind of control, ie- he made no attempt to establish that the private system would necessarily perform any better, and the anecdote had nothing to do with efficiency or overhead costs anyway.

I've had enough of his bullshit. Either he's the dumbest motherfucker I've seen around here in months or he's a lying shitbag who's only pretending to be so fucking stupid that he seriously thinks he can back up a claim about government inefficiency by telling an anecdote about unsympathetic health-care professionals which has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency and which contains the implicit moronic assumption that private health-care is somehow immune to this problem. Either way, I've lost patience with this little shit.



It's time to Sweep out the trash. Kinnison is history.

PS. I liked the way he pretended he had no way of using the link because it had "https" in front of it and he didn't want to trust the SSL certificate. As if he couldn't just click on "accept" or change the prefix to "http" if he was so fucking paranoid. A convenient excuse to avoid answering the point, especially since I had previously posted it in huge bold letters and he ignored it.

[rhoenix]

Stark, Intio, rhoenix, Surlethe, Degan: calm the fuck down and turn down the scorn-o-meter a little why don't you?

No.

kinnison is NOT relaying fucking anecdotes, he just described the care his dead mother, dead father, and he received in the British hospital system. His personal experience seems profoundly negative, with accompanying permanent damage. His saying "I recieved x and y and z shitty care, got misdiagnosed, almost died, and need a cane" is testimony and you're shits for dismissing it so cavalierly. If you want to pick at his arguments, which (sorry kinnison) is justified because he has not produced any other data, fine. Consider his experience a datum which needs corroboration.

At the point where someone intentionally and repeatedly chooses to not answer points made and instead repeats claims ad nauseum in lieu of evidence, and the very best evidence presented are personal stories offered as evidence with no figures or other evidence whatsoever, I will not take that person seriously.

What makes this worse to me is that kinnison claimed to be of high intelligence. One who is of high intelligence is able to recognize that repeating the same behavior (not presenting evidence, not answering points, not conceding arguments) and expecting different results (Win!) is not a recipe for learning or success.

In short, follow your own advice.

[AdmiralKanos]

I love the way he claimed to be a MENSA club member. Why do the morons always try to impress people with claims of high IQ, rather than demonstrating their intelligence by producing a well-argued short essay, instead of typing arguments which bear all the hallmarks of water-cooler conversational small-talk?

You would think someone as intelligent as he claimed to be would know that you can't back up a claim of private health care's superior efficiency and overhead costs by ranting about how doctors and nurses in the UK do not live up to your ideals of perfect diagnostic accuracy, impeccable bedside manner, and attendance to your emotional needs. He takes for granted the fact that he got free health care with no chance of getting a letter from an insurance company with the word "DENIED" stamped on it. But more to the point, he does not seem to understand that none of the things he ranted about had anything to do with efficiency or overhead costs.

PS. Kinnison, if you are reading this, go to school. Learn how to defend an argument or support a claim. Learn what "evidence" means. You have clearly never done any of this in your life. The only other possibility that comes to mind is that your health problems caused severe brain damage.

[Patrick Degan]

Stark, Intio, rhoenix, Surlethe, Degan: calm the fuck down and turn down the scorn-o-meter a little why don't you? kinnison is NOT relaying fucking anecdotes, he just described the care his dead mother, dead father, and he received in the British hospital system. His personal experience seems profoundly negative, with accompanying permanent damage. His saying "I recieved x and y and z shitty care, got misdiagnosed, almost died, and need a cane" is testimony and you're shits for dismissing it so cavalierly. If you want to pick at his arguments, which (sorry kinnison) is justified because he has not produced any other data, fine. Consider his experience a datum which needs corroboration.

His "personal experience" IS WORTH SHIT AS EVIDENCE as to the overall performance of the UK healthcare system, and this is even assuming that the "personal experience" is true and accurate and not simply a made-up story which nobody here has the means to verify one way or another —one of the primary reasons why his "personal experience" IS WORTH SHIT AS EVIDENCE.

In any case, as Mr. Kinnison has already swirled the bowl, the matter has been rendered academic.

[Edi]

Off to Parting Shots with this.

Some more of kinnison's latest hits, which have been obliquely referenced in this thread. They reveal the same pattern of behavior, which is what got him banned.

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