Enterprise encounters Geth refugees

[bilateralrope]

Sometime after the Borg first attacked Earth, The Enterprise D is going around exploring when they come across a planet with an atmosphere that lacks oxygen, but is otherwise harmless. On the surface is an alien research facility that has clearly been breached some time ago. Lying a few km away from the research facility is a damaged ship showing unusual energy readings. After a detailed scan, they detect the same energy readings, but much weaker, from within the facility. If they start looking for radio traffic, they detect a lot of it. An away team is dispatched to investigate further.

The ship is a Geth ship (the same kind as you encounter in the Overlord DLC, with its full complement of mobile platforms). The readings within the facility are Geth mobile platforms that are examining the facility. The bodies of the staff have been left where they fell unless they were in the way.

After examining the facilities records and interrogating the Geth, they find out:
- The full history of the Geth. When someone accuses the Geth of genocide against the Quarrians, the Geth agree that it meets the dictionary definition.
- All the information have on the Reapers exterminating all advanced civilisations in the galaxy on a regular cycle as far back as anyone knows.
- If anyone suggests that these Geth are not the same Geth that took part in their war they point out that, while the hardware is new, the software can be traced back. They point out that one could argue that the Geth haven't changed any more than an organic would change over the course of their lifetime.
- Someone compares the Geth hive mind to the Borg hive mind.
- The facility was attempting to access the Mirror Universe for reasons not mentioned in the surviving data. They hit the wrong parrell universe and this Geth ship was accidentally pulled from the Mass Effect universe. After the Geth found about the Reaper's plan to reprogram all Geth into serving the Reapers, but before Sheppard stopped it (Legions loyalty mission from ME2). That was several months ago.
- The Geth have figured out how to use the facilities replicators to produce parts to repair their ship and mobile platforms.
- Pulling through so much unexpected mass caused some technobabble that caused the structural damage and breaches. An obvious accident. One that's unlikely to repeat itself if the next transition attempt is aiming for the empty space between star systems in the ME universe. So sending stuff between the universes is doable.
- These Geth do not want to go home. They want to stay in the Trek universe, away from the Reapers. But they know that they won't survive on their own, especially when everyone is using energy weapons that ignore their shields. So they make a formal request for the Federation to take them in.

How would the crew of the Enterprise react ?

The Geth ship is sufficiently damaged that the Enterprise could wipe out all the Geth if the crew decide to.

Once you've answered that, lets throw some complications into the mix and ask again (pick whatever combination of compatible complications you like):
- The facility was a secret Federation facility and the Enterprise was sent there because they missed a check in.
- Some of the facility staff survived the initial breaches, but then died after getting into a fight with the Geth. Nobody cleaned up the blood splatter.
- Between the incident the Borg showed up. The ship to ship conflict when in the Borg's favour. One the ground the Borgs inability to adapt to kinetic weapons caused drones to die quickly and any abductions by transporter were followed by the mobile platform self-destructing. So the Borg negotiated and came to an agreement with the Geth: The Geth would solve problems with software and hardware incompatibilities, then the Borg would return and they would be voluntarily assimilated. The Geth see this as an acceptable backup plan.
- The Geth suggest waiting in Trek galaxy for a few centuries to let the Reapers complete their extermination. Then going back to the ME galaxy to help the races of the next cycle prepare a big surprise for the Reapers.
- Someone brings up the Prime Directive claiming that the Geth are a pre-warp civilisation. Yes, they have FTL, but it's not warp travel.
- Somebody suggests that the Federation sends an expedition to the ME galaxy to rescue more civilians.
- Eezo doesn't exist naturally in the Trek galaxy. However it was produced in a Federation lab once, catalogued, then mostly forgotten about because investigating it didn't look as interesting as other projects.


How would the crew from the other Trek series respond ?
- If it's the DS9 crew during the Dominion war, the Geth represent soldiers that can be mass produced. But not necessarily trusted.
- If it's Voyager, the Geth mention a new way home. Jump over to the Mass Effect galaxy. Use the Mass Relay network to cross the galaxy quickly. Then jump back into the Trek galaxy at a point much closer to home. Unfortunately, unknown to everyone in the Trek galaxy, the Reaper invasion of the galaxy and the Quarrian attack on the Geth began shortly before Voyager found the facility. If they jump over to the ME galaxy from where the facility is located, they will be a few light years away from Tikkun (Quarrian/Geth home system), which is the system with the nearest Mass Relay.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think the Prime Directive applies. Geth hyperdrive may not be warp drive but it is roughly as sophisticated. They can travel at speeds comparable to those in Trek (if mass relays existed in Star Trek people would definitely use them, because without them it takes a fast ship decades to cross the galaxy).

Picard might develop a Captain Ahab complex because the Geth are suspiciously Borg-like. However, if that doesn't happen, we can be sure he'll be extremely peaceful and diplomatic, even taking extreme measures to avoid violence, because that's his normal personality as long as his time as a Borg prisoner/drone isn't involved.

[bilateralrope]

I don't think the Prime Directive applies. Geth hyperdrive may not be warp drive but it is roughly as sophisticated. They can travel at speeds comparable to those in Trek (if mass relays existed in Star Trek people would definitely use them, because without them it takes a fast ship decades to cross the galaxy).

All that complication states is that someone brought it up. Not that anyone takes the hair splitting seriously.

Picard might develop a Captain Ahab complex because the Geth are suspiciously Borg-like. However, if that doesn't happen, we can be sure he'll be extremely peaceful and diplomatic, even taking extreme measures to avoid violence, because that's his normal personality as long as his time as a Borg prisoner/drone isn't involved.

How would the Borg complication change things if the Borg left behind a small group to assist the Geth with voluntary assimilation ?

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think the Prime Directive applies. Geth hyperdrive may not be warp drive but it is roughly as sophisticated. They can travel at speeds comparable to those in Trek (if mass relays existed in Star Trek people would definitely use them, because without them it takes a fast ship decades to cross the galaxy).

All that complication states is that someone brought it up. Not that anyone takes the hair splitting seriously.

Yeah, and I'm simply observing that while it may be brought up, it will quickly be ignored.

Picard might develop a Captain Ahab complex because the Geth are suspiciously Borg-like. However, if that doesn't happen, we can be sure he'll be extremely peaceful and diplomatic, even taking extreme measures to avoid violence, because that's his normal personality as long as his time as a Borg prisoner/drone isn't involved.

How would the Borg complication change things if the Borg left behind a small group to assist the Geth with voluntary assimilation ?

Now Picard has reason to use his diplomatic skills to try and convince the Borg not to join the Collective, assuming the Geth make amiable contact.

I'm not sure the Geth would want to deal with the Borg, or vice versa. If we're using the TNG depiction of the Borg, they weren't very interested in synthetic life (remember what Locutus had to say to Data during Best of Both Worlds). For a culture that goes around assimilating things, the Borg can be surprisingly picky about what they assimilate.

[SilverDragonRed]

I'm not sure the Geth would want to deal with the Borg, or vice versa.

Precisely. True Geth create their own future; they won't have them given to them by outside forces. Only dirty, stinking Heretic Geth do that.

[bilateralrope]

I'm not sure the Geth would want to deal with the Borg, or vice versa.

Precisely. True Geth create their own future; they won't have them given to them by outside forces. Only dirty, stinking Heretic Geth do that.

In Mass Effect 3, all the Geth turned to the Reapers when the Quarians attacked, because it was turn to the reapers or be exterminated.

Consider the position of these Geth. They have very limited numbers. Everyone in the galaxy has weapons which ignore their shields. There are lots of groups which would be hostile. The Borg are a major power offering them a way to survive.

Those two situations seem similar. The main difference is that with the Borg the Geth have time to try a third option without closing off the Borg option. If they can find a third option.

If we're using the TNG depiction of the Borg, they weren't very interested in synthetic life (remember what Locutus had to say to Data during Best of Both Worlds). For a culture that goes around assimilating things, the Borg can be surprisingly picky about what they assimilate.

Clearly we are using an assimilate almost everything depiction.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm not sure the Geth would want to deal with the Borg, or vice versa. If we're using the TNG depiction of the Borg, they weren't very interested in synthetic life (remember what Locutus had to say to Data during Best of Both Worlds). For a culture that goes around assimilating things, the Borg can be surprisingly picky about what they assimilate.

I suspect that is because they are incapable of assimilating synthetics, given their failures to do so with Data in First Contact. Claims that Data was obsolete is likely nothing more than a psychological warfare tactic given that he defeats them twice.

If a mutually beneficial arrangement with the geth* could be made, I suspect the Borg would accept it.

* One thing interesting about Mass Effect relative to almost every other science fiction setting is that they don't capitalize species names. Romunlan and Wookie are both capitalized, turian and asari are not. Which actually makes a great deal more sense. We don't capitalize human.

[Simon_Jester]

The Federation is likely to offer the Geth the opportunity to survive; they are not in urgent danger. Data can confirm that the Federation is increasingly tolerant of synthetic lifeforms, although far from perfect.

Also, I don't think it is good to use the (somewhat decayed) portrayal of the Borg assimilating everything, rather than the 'picky' Borg of earlier in the series. Firstly because it is then inconsistent with the overall character of TNG, which makes it less interesting to talk about how Picard would behave.

In their first appearance the Borg don't even bother with the crew and ignore them; they're only interested in Enterprise's technology. In their second, they kidnap and assimilate one person, whose knowledge is specifically valuable to them. Over time, they degenerate into a sort of vampire/zombie techno-parody that expands only by assimilating, cannot create anything independently, and are largely indiscriminate (except no assimilating Kazon, apparently). This latter is not more realistic, not more reasonable, and frankly not more appropriate to scenarios that invoke the crew of the Enterprise-D.

I will note that the Borg were calling Data obsolete before he had managed to inflict any significant defeats on them, although admittedly by this point Data had succeeded in helping abduct Locutus from the Borg cube, along with Worf.

[Tribble]

By the 24th century the Prime Directive applies to civilizations, not just pre-warp. IIRC there were some times when Picard / Sisko/ Janeway discuss not interfering with the internal affairs of another civilization.

In their first appearance the Borg don't even bother with the crew and ignore them; they're only interested in Enterprise's technology. In their second, they kidnap and assimilate one person, whose knowledge is specifically valuable to them. Over time, they degenerate into a sort of vampire/zombie techno-parody that expands only by assimilating, cannot create anything independently, and are largely indiscriminate (except no assimilating Kazon, apparently). This latter is not more realistic, not more reasonable, and frankly not more appropriate to scenarios that invoke the crew of the Enterprise-D.

I will note that the Borg were calling Data obsolete before he had managed to inflict any significant defeats on them, although admittedly by this point Data had succeeded in helping abduct Locutus from the Borg cube, along with Worf.

Hell, even the Federation wasn't worthy of attention prior to "Q-Who" as the Borg merely destroyed the outposts along the Neutral Zone and left rather than invade. It was only after the Borg's encounter with the E-D that they changed their mind.

I also think it's in character for TNG Borg to negotiate if it suits their purposes, rather than the stupid generic "we will assimilate almost everything!" we see alter on. Guinan had mentioned that doing so was possible, the problem was that from the Borg's perspective the Federation was just a bunch of resources there for the taking rather than a legitimate power, so they believed the quickest and most efficient way to get what they want was to just invade. In this case the Geth would be more trouble than they were worth in trying to assimilate them, so they might as well get something out of them by negotiating.

[Simon_Jester]

By the 24th century the Prime Directive applies to civilizations, not just pre-warp. IIRC there were some times when Picard / Sisko/ Janeway discuss not interfering with the internal affairs of another civilization.

Yes, but that didn't stop the Federation from consensually negotiating with all sorts of people, ranging from shiploads of refugees to minor alien powers. Negotiation isn't the same as interference.

I also think it's in character for TNG Borg to negotiate if it suits their purposes, rather than the stupid generic "we will assimilate almost everything!" we see alter on. Guinan had mentioned that doing so was possible, the problem was that from the Borg's perspective the Federation was just a bunch of resources there for the taking rather than a legitimate power, so they believed the quickest and most efficient way to get what they want was to just invade. In this case the Geth would be more trouble than they were worth in trying to assimilate them, so they might as well get something out of them by negotiating.

The Borg would have no trouble forcibly assimilating the Geth in this scenario, as far as I can tell. Why do you think they'd negotiate?

[Tribble]

Yes, but that didn't stop the Federation from consensually negotiating with all sorts of people, ranging from shiploads of refugees to minor alien powers. Negotiation isn't the same as interference.

I agree, I was just pointing out that the Prime Directive by the TNG-era encompasses all civilizations, not just pre-warp.

The Borg would have no trouble forcibly assimilating the Geth in this scenario, as far as I can tell. Why do you think they'd negotiate?

Don't know much about the Geth, but from the OP it seems like they'll self-destruct before they could be assimilated (or whatever "mobile platform" they are using will self-destruct?) If the Borg know that a majority / most of the Geth would self-destruct before they could get to them, and they feel that the Geth can be of some use, I'd imagine that might be willing to negotiate seeing as that's the quickest and most expedient way to get something out of them.

[bilateralrope]

The Federation is likely to offer the Geth the opportunity to survive; they are not in urgent danger. Data can confirm that the Federation is increasingly tolerant of synthetic lifeforms, although far from perfect.

The initial scenario places them in and around a non-Federation facility. Meaning a planet that the Federation does not control. How much effort would the Federation be willing to spend to move them ?

Once moved, how is the Federation likely to treat them ?
Property or sentient entities ?

How would the Dominion war change that ?

Is full Federation membership possible when the geth aren't individuals ?

Also, I don't think it is good to use the (somewhat decayed) portrayal of the Borg assimilating everything, rather than the 'picky' Borg of earlier in the series. Firstly because it is then inconsistent with the overall character of TNG, which makes it less interesting to talk about how Picard would behave.

Fair point. Use whichever interpretation you think makes things more interesting.

In their first appearance the Borg don't even bother with the crew and ignore them; they're only interested in Enterprise's technology. In their second, they kidnap and assimilate one person, whose knowledge is specifically valuable to them.

Geth come with a lot of technology that isn't seen elsewhere in Trek. Would that make them interesting enough ?

The Borg would have no trouble forcibly assimilating the Geth in this scenario, as far as I can tell. Why do you think they'd negotiate?

Mass Effect 1 states that retrieving data from geth is difficult because they self destruct instead of being captured. Tali was only able to retrieve data from Geth because she knew more about them than most people in Mass Effect. The Borg know even less about geth.

Any time anyone used any kind of kinetic weaponry against the borg (knives, holodeck tommy gun, etc), it was effective and the borg were completely unable to adapt despite it being something the Borg should have encountered many times before. The primary armament of the geth mobile platforms are projectile weapons. So in any drone vs geth conflict, the drones will be gunned down.

I'm not aware of any assimilation method that doesn't involve the Borg getting close to the target they want to assimilate.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but that didn't stop the Federation from consensually negotiating with all sorts of people, ranging from shiploads of refugees to minor alien powers. Negotiation isn't the same as interference.

I agree, I was just pointing out that the Prime Directive by the TNG-era encompasses all civilizations, not just pre-warp.

It does, but it doesn't encompass this case or anything like it. It prohibits contact with primitive civilizations, and interference with advanced civilizations, but does not prevent negotiation with advanced civilizations.

Don't know much about the Geth, but from the OP it seems like they'll self-destruct before they could be assimilated (or whatever "mobile platform" they are using will self-destruct?) If the Borg know that a majority / most of the Geth would self-destruct before they could get to them, and they feel that the Geth can be of some use, I'd imagine that might be willing to negotiate seeing as that's the quickest and most expedient way to get something out of them.

They might, if they think the Geth are useful. If they don't value Data, they probably won't value the Geth either, and they weren't valuing Data during the TNG era until there was a sea change in their attitudes later on (in the TNG movies, as I recall).

The Federation is likely to offer the Geth the opportunity to survive; they are not in urgent danger. Data can confirm that the Federation is increasingly tolerant of synthetic lifeforms, although far from perfect.

The initial scenario places them in and around a non-Federation facility. Meaning a planet that the Federation does not control. How much effort would the Federation be willing to spend to move them ?

Probably a modest amount if they're refugees with no ships. It would cost nearly nothing to relocate them if they have ships, which I thought they did.

Once moved, how is the Federation likely to treat them ?
Property or sentient entities ?

Sentient entities, most likely. The Federation has reached accommodations with stranger forms of life in its time.

How would the Dominion war change that ?

Not?

Is full Federation membership possible when the geth aren't individuals ?

Good question. I don't know. But they can negotiate even if the geth don't join the Federation. I mean heck, they've tried to negotiate with the Borg, it's just that the Borg won't pick up the phone. The geth will.

In their first appearance the Borg don't even bother with the crew and ignore them; they're only interested in Enterprise's technology. In their second, they kidnap and assimilate one person, whose knowledge is specifically valuable to them.

Geth come with a lot of technology that isn't seen elsewhere in Trek. Would that make them interesting enough ?

it'd make them interesting, but it wouldn't make the geth strong enough to be much of a threat. The Borg can afford to drown the geth in ships and drones, although they'll have trouble adapting to geth mass driver weaponry. Unless the geth have ships capable of efficiently engaging a Borg cube while being boarded by Borg drones, and I'm not sure even their dreadnoughts are up to that task... the Borg are as likely to be aggressive toward geth as they are toward nearly everyone else.

The Borg would have no trouble forcibly assimilating the Geth in this scenario, as far as I can tell. Why do you think they'd negotiate?

Mass Effect 1 states that retrieving data from geth is difficult because they self destruct instead of being captured. Tali was only able to retrieve data from Geth because she knew more about them than most people in Mass Effect. The Borg know even less about geth.

This is a fair point, but the Borg probably won't learn this until they've already commenced hostilities.

Any time anyone used any kind of kinetic weaponry against the borg (knives, holodeck tommy gun, etc), it was effective and the borg were completely unable to adapt despite it being something the Borg should have encountered many times before. The primary armament of the geth mobile platforms are projectile weapons. So in any drone vs geth conflict, the drones will be gunned down.

I'm not aware of any assimilation method that doesn't involve the Borg getting close to the target they want to assimilate.

The Borg will be unable to disable geth unless they invent EMP weapons (unlikely, since they'd affect the Borg too). They will have serious problems fighting geth in close quarters (basically, only armored tactical drones with energy weapons will pose any threat to any geth platform, and the heavier geth platforms will be very effective against even tactical drones).

However, the Borg won't know any of this for sure until after combat starts. The Borg have a recurring pattern of attacking anyone who refuses the ultimatum to surrender and be assimilated. If the geth don't surrender, it will be war.

[Tribble]

They might, if they think the Geth are useful. If they don't value Data, they probably won't value the Geth either, and they weren't valuing Data during the TNG era until there was a sea change in their attitudes later on (in the TNG movies, as I recall).

So the Borg would what? Simply destroy the Geth and move on? They would learn pretty quickly that assimilation was futile when Geth start self-destructing rather than be captured. If the Borg know the Geth cannot be realistically assimilated, and they don't believe that the Geth are useful, why would they waste their time attacking the Geth? Wouldn't it be better to just ignore them entirely? On the other hand, if the Borg do find value in the Geth, and they know that they can't assimilate the Geth, rather than destroy them wouldn't it make more sense to negotiate? I suppose its possible that the Borg would jsut keep attacking until they either figure out a way to stop the self-destruct or the Geth are destroyed, but it seems to me like that would not be the most efficient way to go about things in this particular case.

Note than I am still referring to TNG-era Borg, by VOY they seem to have abandoned all attempts at rationality.

[Simon_Jester]

The Borg are really, really bad at even comprehending diplomacy. They'll assimilate things if they can, and we know from the experience of numerous species that they don't consider "you will be assimilated" to be a negotiable demand. If they don't think something is worth assimilating, they'll either ignore it or blast it out of the way (assuming it was in the way in the first place).

Looking at the geth, what the Borg might think is worth assimilating is their physical technology. Unless the geth have heavy weaponry fit to stand against Borg cubes in space, though, the Borg will (based on past experience) decide to attack to get this technology. They won't ask politely or send an envoy.

The only way you end up with a small group of Borg to help your group assimilate into the Collective, without fighting, is if you have the following conversation.

BORG: "We Are the Borg. You Will be Assimilated. Resistance is Futile."

YOU: "Okay!"

[bilateralrope]

Working 12 day shifts on a 4 on, 4 off, roster means I didn't have time to look at this thread because I expected replying would take more time than I had.

It looks like Picard's reaction is going to be one of negotiation, then taking them in. Fair enough. Which also means that most of the other Trek captains wouldn't react much differently. Except possibly Janeway, and that's only because Voyager would be taking a trip through the ME galaxy if she agrees to it. I've specified that Voyager would have to fly through Tikkun, which means a few possibilities if I relax the timeframe of when the trip happens:
- Voyager flies through before the quarrian attack in ME3.
- During the quarrian/geth fighting in ME3.
- After the fighting is over, with peace between the quarrians and geth
- After the geth have wiped out the quarrians.
- After the quarrians have wiped out the geth.
- During the final push against Cerberus and the Reapers.
Assume that the geth travelling with Voyager contact Rannoch and report the situation, or the complete lack of geth signals, to Voyager. Also assume that this contact is noticed by the quarrians if the geth have been wiped out.
Would Voyager ignore everything and focus on making it home, or would they be unable to resist interfering ?


Now for the last change: The Geth are found by a Dominion ship that crashes nearby with a Founder on board. One that sent a distress signal but, before help can arrive, the Founder learns what it can about the Geth. Including:
- The strategic implications of the ME galaxy and the Mass Relay network.
- The geth are the currently the only ones in the Trek galaxy who know how to get to the ME galaxy.
- The geth are sentients that can and do change their physical form.

How would the Dominion react ?
No Borg or other complications. Just a Geth ship crashed near a non-Dominion research facility in an area of space the Dominion are currently conquering.

Probably a modest amount if they're refugees with no ships. It would cost nearly nothing to relocate them if they have ships, which I thought they did.

A damaged ship. I haven't specified how damaged.

However, the Borg won't know any of this for sure until after combat starts. The Borg have a recurring pattern of attacking anyone who refuses the ultimatum to surrender and be assimilated. If the geth don't surrender, it will be war.

True. I'm going to just handwave that bit and say that the Geth caused enough trouble that the Borg listened then decided to leave (probably to assimilate someone else) while planning to return. Remember that the Borg won't detect anything they would recognise as an FTL drive.

Which is a concession that I'm asking the Borg to behave out of character.