Imperial Guard with Space Marine Gunships

[Sea Skimmer]

Lascannons=water cooled machine guns? I don't think so. They're more like 6pdr/75mm cannon or whatever. Now if you're talking the Land Raider Crusader, sure (six twin linked heavy bolters, twin linked assault cannon). But that's explicitly a close assault vehicle for breaking into fortifications and wreaking havoc among the defenders while the Assault Terminators exit and start breaking stuff.

A 75mm cannon would mean something differently, it'd actually pass into that 'tank threshold' of damaging material, but at that point you'd have to dump infantry for a lot of ammo space. Also probably mount at least a 100mm gun because its not actually going to end up as much bigger as you expect, the BMP-3 is very convincing on that approach to combat if you wanted want to do it. In real life we made 70mm grenade launchers, against the bigger enemies around that would kind of turn into what you functionally use against all the bigger infantry enemies. So kinda still like a heavy machine gun in its actual role in combat.

The cogitator is important because... reasons. Out of universe, there's no good reason to have an 'autopilot' or whatever on a tank. In universe... I can see it being a way to temporarily free up the driver to take over gunnery duties (directing the lascannon for example) while maximizing space inside the vehicle for Terminators or Honour Guard.

Maybe. Outright drone vehicles for driving make sense, but generally only if you have nobody alive in the vehicle. Such as resupply runs across fire swept ground, and vehicles carrying certain things you will need in real life scenarios but take up a lot of bulk, like a mine clearing line charge. But that's awful against the normal spirit of 40K....it gets us back to the world of radar-LOSAT vehicles networked together. An heavy engineering tank would be the most valuable location for drone AI if you had to choose just one, it's incredibly risky in an assault and also fairly simple work once certain principles are understood that are a lot simpler to model then an AI notionally able to engage enemy infantry on the ground.

Land Raiders are frequently used as the transport for Space Marine leadership, so it's not impossible that they use the cogitator to facilitate situational analysis and maximizing the efficiency of their troop dispositions.

That would work, though it wouldn't be much reason not to build them without it. You should only need about a 1-14 ratio of things like that to be effective., company commander level.

[Rogue 9]

A lascannon is a heavy antitank weapon, presuming you mean the Phobos pattern Land Raider. The Crusader and Redeemer patterns carry anti-infantry weapons (banks of boltguns and fuckoff huge flamethrowers, respectively), but the by far most common weapons pattern is primarily anti-tank and on par with the heaviest weapons that Predators can mount.

And what the Land Raiders' AI does on tabletop is let the vehicle fire one of its weapons independently of the others, at full accuracy, regardless of any other factors including stunned crew. In the fluff they're capable of all kinds of crazy shit up to and including continuing operation despite a disabled or dead driver.

[Honorius]

Honorius, since you have the books easily available based on how quickly you reference Forge World vehicles, I'd like to ask: Does the Crassus just have more firepower and/or armor protection compared to the Land Raider? Or does it also have superior electronics and other advanced features?

Can it fight with no crew, as a Land Raider can?

And superior Electronics and Advanced Features are War Winning how? The Space Marines need a bunch of AI Driven shit because they lack numbers to hold ground and don't utilize their serfs to help in that regard. The Guard don't so that shit can be omitted if not simply downgraded.

[Sea Skimmer]

A lascannon is a heavy antitank weapon, presuming you mean the Phobos pattern Land Raider. The Crusader and Redeemer patterns carry anti-infantry weapons (banks of boltguns and fuckoff huge flamethrowers, respectively), but the by far most common weapons pattern is primarily anti-tank and on par with the heaviest weapons that Predators can mount.

Okay. This just circles back to the illogic of the tanks themselves on the pecking order I guess in terms of the seeming mismatch in what they consider anti tank weapons vs what are effective vehicles. In real life we have 'anti tank weapons' and 'anti tank weapons which will almost certainly kill the enemy'. If this is how the Land Raider is already armed then okay, but then the Land Raider own survival chance also sounds like about zero if we have anti tank lasers. If said weapons are more like...might kill a tank from the side weapons, different story...but then why not a heavier gun. That's where I'm at thinking wise.

Multiple forward weapons does make sense if you intend to leap out onto an actual beach, but from space, onto the ground less so? Predator looks like a much better idea on the weapons count.

And what the Land Raiders' AI does on tabletop is let the vehicle fire one of its weapons independently of the others, at full accuracy, regardless of any other factors including stunned crew. In the fluff they're capable of all kinds of crazy shit up to and including continuing operation despite a disabled or dead driver.

Neat. Still does not seem vital to have on every vehicle if this vehicle is otherwise top notch somehow.

[NecronLord]

You'd imagine the bottleneck on Land Raider production would be the cogitator with a "maximum contemplation capacity of 10,000 kilobrains," really.

Umm, they need that for what exactly in a vehicle primarily armed with low angle weapons which are the 40K equivalent of water cooled machine guns?

Supposition: it is likely a holdover from when the Land Raider was a human exploratory vehicle, before the fall of human culture, in the form of the Land Raider Proteus, when such a capability was useful. And because the STC is sacred, no one has thought to try and re-engineer it properly. They put a ramp on the front and changed the armouring, but religion is weird, and maybe gutting the brains of a Land Raider is unthinkable to them.

For explorers, having the vehicle able to make decisions and operate on its own while still being able to carry a survey party makes much more sense. (God only knows what made them put the guns there though) and the Proteus had a much better sensor-suite than its 'military' descendants.

[NecronLord]

If said weapons are more like...might kill a tank from the side weapons, different story...but then why not a heavier gun. That's where I'm at thinking wise.

And you're not wrong. It's a stupid way to design a combat vehicle.

They used to have an arguably more sensible tank though again with all the issues of being designed to be an interesting model (Sponsons! No turret! High as a house and with all kinds of weird details, lots of entrances and exits, and so on) and you can see the scale of the thing compared to predators and land raiders.

They also have a Jagdpanther-esque thing with a beefier gun. Again more common before the Horus Heresy.

Supposedly this thing was designed by a couple of primarchs from a few different STC vehicles.

[Sea Skimmer]

So basically the old stuff averages much heavier gunned. At least they are consistent on something.

Its kind of setup in reverse of what you'd want lol. In ye olden days of high production and an expanding empire lighter vehicles would make plenty of sense, just get them out everywhere into mobile planet invading battles. Now the Empire should certainly want heavier armament stuff since its on the strategic defense for so long. We could go crazy so easily, 1950s design can give us a 60 ton tank with a 100in turret ring, same as M1 tank, and 175mm armored gun pod on that. A joke then, no problem today at all. Game needs a update with MAXIMUM FIREPOWER. They somehow think they have it, pah.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Supposedly this thing was designed by a couple of primarchs from a few different STC vehicles.

Ferrus Manus and Roboute Guilliman, according to the Lexicanum article.

[NecronLord]

Well if things were set up the way one would want things, then they might well be in better straits. But giving all the super-rare gear to the less-trained troops who have less maintenance personnel per head and who aren't given the best navigators to be a rapid response force, like Honorius suggests, would be dumb.

Sure, if they could produce it all in endless numbers, that'd be great. But the setting's set up to make this stuff super rare, it's handwaving that away is basically 'what if the Imperial Guard had SUDDEN COMPETENCE would that improve things' level of obviousness.

Supposedly this thing was designed by a couple of primarchs from a few different STC vehicles.

Ferrus Manus and Roboute Guilliman, according to the Lexicanum article.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter which though, just that it's not a wholly original design and they took things designed (often as dual use vehicles, the RH1N0 was a colonist/explorer transport for instance) by their better-educated (AI loving) predecessors which might explain some of its craziness. Maybe suspension of disbelief ho!

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, Skimmer, in regards to the "they'd want heavier stuff now than back in the day."

Of course, the Guard, which actually does most of the defending, has taken the "heavy high-powered vehicle" to extremes including the ridiculous extreme that is the Baneblade. The Space Marines are still running around with light easily deployable stuff, it's just that their light stuff includes a heavy tank that can be spacedropped and that sort of thing.
_______________________________

Honorius...

Why are you Randomly capitalizing Words?

Also, you are completely missing the point. Others have already noted the Crassus is a larger, heavier vehicle than the Land Raider, and comes with less firepower in its standard configuration. It is not, as you claim, the Guard equivalent of a Land Raider. No more than a locomotive of 1916 is the equivalent of a pickup truck today just because the locomotive can go as fast and carry as much weight.

The Adeptus Mechanicus's ability to mass-product Crassus superheavy tanks does not have anything to do with their ability to mass-produce Land Raiders. Since the Crassus is a much heavier vehicle that is most likely technologically inferior*, it is likely produced via completely different processes and using different technologies that do not require the same level of effort.
_______________________________

*Having to make the tank physically larger in order to give it equivalent protection and firepower is a classic sign of inferior technology.

A lascannon is a heavy antitank weapon, presuming you mean the Phobos pattern Land Raider. The Crusader and Redeemer patterns carry anti-infantry weapons (banks of boltguns and fuckoff huge flamethrowers, respectively), but the by far most common weapons pattern is primarily anti-tank and on par with the heaviest weapons that Predators can mount.

Okay. This just circles back to the illogic of the tanks themselves on the pecking order I guess in terms of the seeming mismatch in what they consider anti tank weapons vs what are effective vehicles. In real life we have 'anti tank weapons' and 'anti tank weapons which will almost certainly kill the enemy'. If this is how the Land Raider is already armed then okay, but then the Land Raider own survival chance also sounds like about zero if we have anti tank lasers. If said weapons are more like...might kill a tank from the side weapons, different story...but then why not a heavier gun. That's where I'm at thinking wise.

I guess the issue is that for normal tabletop Warhammer 40k, weapons just don't get much more effective than the lascannon. Because the focus is on platoon or company-level actions, in which a small number of AFVs represent a large fraction of total point cost. Guns that can reliably one-shot enemy tanks are problematic, everyone's heavily armored vehicles have about the same resistance to heavy weapons (measured by an "armor value" that caps at 14). And because of that, the heaviest weapons have strength 9 or 10, which makes them capable of knocking out the heaviest vehicles but unlikely to do so in one shot.

Lascannons will penetrate any infantry armor including the heaviest powered armor that eats antitank rockets and spits them out, and can penetrate any vehicle- it isn't the heaviest antitank firepower you see in normal tabletop 40k but it's close.

A lascannon has a very good chance of knocking out light armored vehicles and a decent chance against heavy ones. There are just plain not many anti-armor weapons that penetrate armor more reliably than a lascannon in the main game, although if you look at the 'epic-scale' rules you see bigger, nastier stuff.

So that's probably the main reason for stock Land Raider models not having a better main gun- it's "the biggest there is," or close. Some of the epic-scale variants and so on actually do have better.

[Lord Revan]

I guess the issue is that for normal tabletop Warhammer 40k, weapons just don't get much more effective than the lascannon. Because the focus is on platoon or company-level actions, in which a small number of AFVs represent a large fraction of total point cost. Guns that can reliably one-shot enemy tanks are problematic, everyone's heavily armored vehicles have about the same resistance to heavy weapons (measured by an "armor value" that caps at 14). And because of that, the heaviest weapons have strength 9 or 10, which makes them capable of knocking out the heaviest vehicles but unlikely to do so in one shot.

Lascannons will penetrate any infantry armor including the heaviest powered armor that eats antitank rockets and spits them out, and can penetrate any vehicle- it isn't the heaviest antitank firepower you see in normal tabletop 40k but it's close.

A lascannon has a very good chance of knocking out light armored vehicles and a decent chance against heavy ones. There are just plain not many anti-armor weapons that penetrate armor more reliably than a lascannon in the main game, although if you look at the 'epic-scale' rules you see bigger, nastier stuff.

So that's probably the main reason for stock Land Raider models not having a better main gun- it's "the biggest there is," or close. Some of the epic-scale variants and so on actually do have better.

we should also remember that Space Marines generally don't encounter opposing forces that use a lot of heavily armed vechiles, the Eldar and the Tau rely more on not getting hit then heavy armor, most traitors guardsmen would be from the more poorly equipted regiments or PDF (as those would be more likely to be fed up with state of the imperium then a well equipted elite regiments), really only a large scale rebellion, a big ork WAAAGHH! or traitor marines would deploy that much armor to the field and Lascannons are "good enough" for most of those situations anyway.

[Honorius]

Honorius...

Why are you Randomly capitalizing Words?

Also, you are completely missing the point. Others have already noted the Crassus is a larger, heavier vehicle than the Land Raider, and comes with less firepower in its standard configuration. It is not, as you claim, the Guard equivalent of a Land Raider. No more than a locomotive of 1916 is the equivalent of a pickup truck today just because the locomotive can go as fast and carry as much weight.

The Adeptus Mechanicus's ability to mass-product Crassus superheavy tanks does not have anything to do with their ability to mass-produce Land Raiders. Since the Crassus is a much heavier vehicle that is most likely technologically inferior*, it is likely produced via completely different processes and using different technologies that do not require the same level of effort.

And why are you a Grammar Nazi?

1. The Crassus fulfills the same role as the Land Raider. that is get troops across an artillery hell landscape unscatched and drop them off where they can do the most harm. Depending on loadout, it can bring 4 Lascannons, 2 HKs, and a pintle mounted weapon. If we add what its passengers are bringing, then it gets even more interesting and 35 men is a good size platoon. The Landraider is either deploying 10 standard marines or 5 Terminators. Crunch the numbers out, the Crassus is bringing more potential firepower to the fight.


2. This is utter bullshit. As Sea Skimmer and I pointed out, the high tech gizmos more suited for a command tank can be stripped out or downgraded. This is done in real life with the T-72 series of tanks and being represented in the new fluff changes with Imperial Guard Tanks.

[Simon_Jester]

Honorius...

Why are you Randomly capitalizing Words?

And why are you a Grammar Nazi?

Because you started making mistakes I never made after the age of seven?

Also, you are completely missing the point. Others have already noted the Crassus is a larger, heavier vehicle than the Land Raider, and comes with less firepower in its standard configuration. It is not, as you claim, the Guard equivalent of a Land Raider. No more than a locomotive of 1916 is the equivalent of a pickup truck today just because the locomotive can go as fast and carry as much weight.

1. The Crassus fulfills the same role as the Land Raider. that is get troops across an artillery hell landscape unscatched and drop them off where they can do the most harm...

The Crassus fulfills part of the same role. The other part of that role is "be small enough to transport with practical aerospace shuttles and drop into a combat zone." Because Land Raiders can do that. The Crassus super-IFV can't do that.

The mission of a piece of military hardware isn't just about what it does on the battlefield. It's about what it can do off the battlefield, and what it takes to sustain and support that piece of hardware.

The Adeptus Mechanicus's ability to mass-product Crassus superheavy tanks does not have anything to do with their ability to mass-produce Land Raiders. Since the Crassus is a much heavier vehicle that is most likely technologically inferior*, it is likely produced via completely different processes and using different technologies that do not require the same level of effort.

2. This is utter bullshit. As Sea Skimmer and I pointed out, the high tech gizmos more suited for a command tank can be stripped out or downgraded. This is done in real life with the T-72 series of tanks and being represented in the new fluff changes with Imperial Guard Tanks.

Very well. Even if we remove the electronics, though, we're still left with the challenge of producing the Land Raider's hull, armor, engine, and suspension. If the Adeptus Mechanicus can easily mass produce those things, prove it. Their ability to mass produce the Crassus isn't relevant because the Crassus is much larger and cruder and grossly inferior to its weight in Land Raiders in terms of combat ability.

[NecronLord]

2. This is utter bullshit. As Sea Skimmer and I pointed out, the high tech gizmos more suited for a command tank can be stripped out or downgraded. This is done in real life with the T-72 series of tanks and being represented in the new fluff changes with Imperial Guard Tanks.

Heretic!

The Imperium of Man is not guided by rationality. Particularly not the Adeptus Mechanicus. The mechanicus is irrational from the ground up. Stop saying 'if only they did rational things' if they did, they'd start by getting rid of servitors and starting using robots, at much greater efficiency. Nothing physically stops them doing that either, it's what the Tau, and their ancestors did. Their religion prevents them.

Also there's two flavours of specialist command Land Raider, the Excelsior and Prometheus patterns, so if anything, it seems to need an upgrade for that role.

[Elheru Aran]

As for rationality...

This is an universe with literal *gods* (or forces of nature with anthromorphic elaborations, if you want to look at it that way). This is an universe where you can literally use tarot cards to (more or less) predict the future. Where you have a race of sentient fungi who basically exist only to wage war, and a race of immortal undead robot zombies. And so much more.

Rationality went out the window ages ago.

That said...

There are certain rules in universe, which make a certain amount of sense. For example, the AdMech doesn't use robots because for some reason (probably Warp-related) robots went bad and turned on their masters in the distant past. They do have a certain version of the scientific method; it's just hidden under lingua-technis arcana, incense fumes and a dogmatic adherence to current forms, in large part because innovation in 40K is *risky*. Either it's legit innovation, which can be an actual improvement in things... or it's a secret heresy which will end up in an entire forgeworld being purged, something like that, because it's actually the culmination of one of Tzeentch's plans.

But there *is* a certain degree of technological advancement. An easy example is Space Marine armour; they went from marks 3-4 during the Crusade, mark 5 during the Heresy, all the way up to what is it now, mark 8? Space Marines are a special case, of course-- they get all the shinies, as does the Inquisition. There are also Imperial Navy ships that are more advanced than older craft, which is called out specifically in Battlefleet Gothic-- a few of the Chaos ships are noted as being out of use in the Imperium because they're dated.

[Sea Skimmer]

When you have literal gods around that's precisely where the whole bring cannon fodder ALWAYS and biggest possible cannon thing come into play though. Lack of reliable communication and travel are things that rather devalue the notion of elite troops acting alone. It isn't for nothing that modern spec ops only appeared after aircraft did, lack of daring was never the issue. It added certainty to a lot of things on intelligence and transport.

With the way the 40K warp works it's intentionally like the 17th century of warfare, a small elite force would have a primary role of piracy... Marines are great in that context, going off to lead ground assaults would be massively suicidal for them.

But that might be okay if they only fought one of two field battles in a normal human lifespan like many glorious military leaders of the knightly past were known for. Using them as a constant rapid reaction force, but on a response time of months to years to decades really distorts the practical applications. You're going in near blind on intelligence and foreplanning, since the enemy physically can build weapons in the time it takes you to show up. Let alone who knows what he also shipped in.

The whole undertrained Guard thing is kind of silly, the travel time is high so you have to train any force onboard ship. The ships are big enough for it in physical terms, one would assume they at least have the tech for linking the vehicles together via simulator gear.

[Elheru Aran]

With the way the 40K warp works it's intentionally like the 17th century of warfare, a small elite force would have a primary role of piracy... Marines are great in that context, going off to lead ground assaults would be massively suicidal for them.

But that might be okay if they only fought one of two field battles in a normal human lifespan like many glorious military leaders of the knightly past were known for. Using them as a constant rapid reaction force, but on a response time of months to years to decades really distorts the practical applications. You're going in near blind on intelligence and foreplanning, since the enemy physically can build weapons in the time it takes you to show up. Let alone who knows what he also shipped in.

Yes and no.

The Marines specifically have faster vehicles and better astronavigators than anybody in the Imperium except the Inquisition and maybe the Assassins. They also tend to protect the area immediately around them; for example the Iron Snakes protect a small area of space known as the Reef Stars. So their response time can be considerably less than you might think. It's no 'fly around the galaxy in half a day' but it could be as little as a few days to as much as, yeah, a few months. There are also Chapters that don't have planetary homes and just fly around in massive fleets, Chapters which send companies out on long distance missions, and so forth.

Now say Ultramarines showing up on the other side of the galaxy from Macragge within a few days would be highly improbable... but that's Smurfs for you.

As for intelligence, most Chapters have psychic Librarians available; a certain degree of foresight is possible, though of course that's always subject to interference. Orbital surveys once they arrive are also quite possible, and in fact IIRC are specifically mentioned a few times. It's not like they just come out of space and charge blindly at the enemy... well maybe the Space Wolves, but they're crazy anyway.

That said, Space Marines leading frontal assaults is fairly rare. The reason we see it so often is because most of the novels and such are from their perspective and we see a disproportionate amount of Marine actions. Note that frequently we see it coupled with special-forces type actions such as precision strikes upon weapons batteries, power supplies, shield generators and so forth; it's not just a wall of Marines. Even in Storm of Iron, which has the Iron Warriors attacking a fortress, they're using a lot of Traitor Guard and Titans to supplement their forces. The Horus Heresy books, which are pretty much all about Marines being used as full armies, also explicitly describe hordes of human soldiers supporting the Legions.

The whole undertrained Guard thing is kind of silly, the travel time is high so you have to train any force onboard ship. The ships are big enough for it in physical terms, one would assume they at least have the tech for linking the vehicles together via simulator gear.

Uh, yeah, that is explicitly mentioned quite a few times, that they do onboard training on their ships. Certainly not every regiment is capable of doing it, it's a matter of what their planet can afford to tithe, but IIRC the Gaunt's Ghosts did that, as did Ciaphas Cain's Valhallans. Even Schaeffer's Last Chancers did it, though they were probably a special case as Schaeffer was an Inquisitorial agent and the Last Chancers were being deliberately whittled down to the best and most capable individuals.

Now you do have some special cases such as Conscripts, the occasional penal battalion, and a few feral worlds which sends a bunch of half-mad savages in animal skins wielding clubs, some medieval-ish worlds which send guys wearing gladiator outfits or Aztec feathers... (god the third edition Guard codex was silly) but lasguns and flak armour are pretty much the default mode for the majority of the Guard, and most regiments are reasonably competent and well trained. How competent their *leadership* is may be another matter, but the standard mk 1 Guardsman is generally going to be a decent enough soldier.

[NecronLord]

There are certain rules in universe, which make a certain amount of sense. For example, the AdMech doesn't use robots because for some reason (probably Warp-related) robots went bad and turned on their masters in the distant past.

I am fully aware of this. However, the supposition (they do not in fact know!) that sapient robots rebelled is no reason to fear non-sapient ones.

They do have a certain version of the scientific method; it's just hidden under lingua-technis arcana, incense fumes and a dogmatic adherence to current forms, in large part because innovation in 40K is *risky*.

I know this too.

However it is indisputable that conservatives like the Imperio-Cognisticians hold the balance of power in the Mechanicus.

Either it's legit innovation, which can be an actual improvement in things... or it's a secret heresy which will end up in an entire forgeworld being purged, something like that, because it's actually the culmination of one of Tzeentch's plans.

But there *is* a certain degree of technological advancement. An easy example is Space Marine armour; they went from marks 3-4 during the Crusade, mark 5 during the Heresy, all the way up to what is it now, mark 8? Space Marines are a special case, of course-- they get all the shinies, as does the Inquisition. There are also Imperial Navy ships that are more advanced than older craft, which is called out specifically in Battlefleet Gothic-- a few of the Chaos ships are noted as being out of use in the Imperium because they're dated.

And in many cases it's pointed out that this is because the Imperium can no longer produce them, too. Outdated doesn't mean what it means to us.

[Elheru Aran]

That's true. When you're dealing with ~40 millennia of history, that's a very different time scale from a mere two and change. Like in the other thread Skimmer was talking about 'centuries'... which is one thing, but when you have planets that have been occupied for literal tens of millennia... the context is simply a massive shift from what we have.

[Sgt_Artyom]

As far as I was aware, it wasn't robots so much as advanced artificial intelligence that the Ad-Mech and Imperium have a problem with. The Adeptus Mechanicus does still have a cybernetics branch: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Legio_Cybernetica. They're just not deployed all too often in the last few millenia.

There's nothing stopping them from creating truly advanced robots aside from the fact that without any kind of useful AI, they're still limited by the capabilities of the human mind. Research into 'Abominable Intelligence" is punishable by death as it breaks what is called the "Crimson Accord of Mars", with outlaws any kind of research into A.I that isn't paired with a human mind (Servitors and the like).

"They Shall Not suffer a Machine to Think! For Ruin Shall be its Purpose and Accursed be the Work."

[NecronLord]

Did you know, the limitations on the Legio Cybernetica's robots is due to the requirement for an organic component? A cortex, made with cloned human neural tissue. Any robot, even a non-sapient one, that is motile of its own power must have been a man or human-embryo at some point.

True automation is what makes the Tau have individual (if huge) factory complexes the size of nations that are more productive than forge worlds.

You could say 'zomg ROBOT REVOLT' which is yes, a sociological reason for all this. But it's not rational to fear a robot revolt will happen immediately - it didn't happen for twenty three thousand years before, if indeed it happened at all, why would it happen overnight this time?

In comparison, designing things to have minimal automation the way the Imperio-Cognisticians and other conservative tech-priests do is splendidly irrational at best. Pointing to the existence of progressive/sane techpriests doesn't invalidate the fact that there are techpriests that think the best way to design a weapons loader is to maximize the amount of human sweat produced per shell, and that in many areas it's those guys running things.

[Simon_Jester]

When you have literal gods around that's precisely where the whole bring cannon fodder ALWAYS and biggest possible cannon thing come into play though. Lack of reliable communication and travel are things that rather devalue the notion of elite troops acting alone. It isn't for nothing that modern spec ops only appeared after aircraft did, lack of daring was never the issue. It added certainty to a lot of things on intelligence and transport.

With the way the 40K warp works it's intentionally like the 17th century of warfare, a small elite force would have a primary role of piracy... Marines are great in that context, going off to lead ground assaults would be massively suicidal for them.

Yeah, and that's pretty much what they actually do. They sail around hitting targets that aren't really prepared to deal with them, or they sail around and reinforce an existing war zone in a way that gives them some time to plan out just what they're going to do after they get some information about local problems.

Also, Marine ships tend to be faster than other people's ships, sometimes a lot faster, so while they may not have good intel and strategic reaction times, they do better than anyone else.

But that might be okay if they only fought one of two field battles in a normal human lifespan like many glorious military leaders of the knightly past were known for. Using them as a constant rapid reaction force, but on a response time of months to years to decades really distorts the practical applications. You're going in near blind on intelligence and foreplanning, since the enemy physically can build weapons in the time it takes you to show up. Let alone who knows what he also shipped in.

This is true. On the other hand, the Marines often have local allies who can provide more up-to-date intelligence... and they have their own spacecraft, so they can do orbital reconnaissance.

The whole undertrained Guard thing is kind of silly, the travel time is high so you have to train any force onboard ship. The ships are big enough for it in physical terms, one would assume they at least have the tech for linking the vehicles together via simulator gear.

The Guard isn't actually supposed to be badly trained and many planets' Guard forces are pitched as highly professional. The theory is that the Guard is the best 10% of the planetary defense force, or otherwise provides what would be by our standards an elite military force.

The problem is that some planets send their dregs rather than their best, or are such hellholes that they cannot provide healthy, well-trained, well-equipped soldiers at all (e.g. because of massive pollution, or social decay such that the corrupt planetary governor just drafts criminal troublemakers and ships them into space figuring that they'll all get slaughtered).

You could say 'zomg ROBOT REVOLT' which is yes, a sociological reason for all this. But it's not rational to fear a robot revolt will happen immediately - it didn't happen for twenty three thousand years before, if indeed it happened at all, why would it happen overnight this time?

For one, because the Warp's gotten nastier in the timeframe between 25000 AD and 40000 AD. The Age of Strife that wrecked human galactic civilization was triggered in large part by the revolt of the Iron Men... and then the Eldar had to go and blow up their own civilization, introducing Slaanesh to the universe and locking down warp travel for hundreds if not thousands of years. Now, the Warp is more riled-up and active than in those days.

If people kept experimenting with AI in the era of the God-Emperor after the Age of Strife, it is very likely that they would see problems with the AIs going rogue sooner than would have been the case before that time.

[NecronLord]

You could say 'zomg ROBOT REVOLT' which is yes, a sociological reason for all this. But it's not rational to fear a robot revolt will happen immediately - it didn't happen for twenty three thousand years before, if indeed it happened at all, why would it happen overnight this time?

For one, because the Warp's gotten nastier in the timeframe between 25000 AD and 40000 AD. The Age of Strife that wrecked human galactic civilization was triggered in large part by the revolt of the Iron Men... and then the Eldar had to go and blow up their own civilization, introducing Slaanesh to the universe and locking down warp travel for hundreds if not thousands of years. Now, the Warp is more riled-up and active than in those days.

If people kept experimenting with AI in the era of the God-Emperor after the Age of Strife, it is very likely that they would see problems with the AIs going rogue sooner than would have been the case before that time.

You're wrong on a few things here.

First, the primary cause of the Age of Strife was the emergence of human psykers. The Iron Men in older sources rebelled against the Stone Men, other AIs, not humans. It's not clear what those are, and people with these beliefs (Gaunt etc) are rarely possessed of the kind of knowledge that would make them reliable sources vs the guy who said it was Iron vs Stone (an archivist on Terra condemned as a heretic)

As for chaos, no, chaos has no special effect on AIs, this is a meme invented by fans to justify the AdMech, and has virtually no supporting evidence. The warp doesn't do shit to the Tau for doing it, and from FFG sources - For instance the False Men of Nomen Rye are non-chaos human-built AI without any corruption of chaos - there are oodles of examples of robots being built by humans and others, that don't insta-corrupt.

There's an example of an AI that literally sat in the core of the Maelstrom for ten thousand years and remained uncorrupted by chaos, enough to strike against the chaos gods when its lawful master commanded. The example of the Iron Men in the Gaunts Ghosts books is one example, and it was activated by a very suspect spy who had previously been captured by chaos (hummm!). Every. Single. Tau. World has robot constructors on it that don't barf into chaos the moment they're turned on.

And then there's all the necron worlds - inclduing in places like the Screaming Vortex - where their own constructs (such as Canoptek Wraiths) function perfectly well without corruption.

Thirdly, no, Slaanesh ended the Age of Strife, blasting the warp storms away from Terra and releasing the Emperor to travel. This meme's so widespread in the fandom I actually have a stock set of scans to post when it comes up. The Eldar had nothing to do with starting the Age of Strife.

[Elheru Aran]

Umm, weren't the Iron Men turning out corrupt in that case from Gaunt's Ghosts though? Like, the STC or whatever it was, was starting to turn them out bad... it wasn't just a case of a Chaos corrupted spy, though that probably did contribute.

Necrons are also quite arguably a special case, as they're deliberately anti-warp in many ways.

Thirdly, surely it *is* possible for technology to become possessed/corrupted? Hence lovely things like Daemon Engines, Warpsmiths and so forth?

[NecronLord]

That's the one I mentioned above. The guy who turned them on had been mysteriously missing for months and held by chaos, then rescued and tortured by a radical inquisitor so insane that he'd had his face surgically altered to a bull's head! Wonder why they turned out to be corrupted... hrmmmm.


Why don't you look sane?

It's possible for a machine to be possessed, using rituals and magic and sacrifice. Just like a human. Or an inanimate object. Daemon Shields and Stones exist, as well as human daemon hosts, and robotic ones.

In no way is the Gaunts Ghosts incident evidence that all iron men are corrupt or that there's anything inherently chaotic about AI. It's evidence that Inquisitorial Radicals are dangerous nutbags.