Flying aircraft carriers

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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Sky Captain wrote: How viable would be to fight major fire by going to higher altitude to starve fire from oxygen assuming propulsion still fully operational and you can keep crew into pressurized parts of the ship?
That sometimes works for jet fighters going fast and high, actually blow the fire out through low oxygen levels plus massive air cooling. Mostly this tactic fails however. Also a problem is the required altitudes are high enough to mean that the crew will need bottled air and perhaps also pressure suits. Once you have a major fire you cannot be pressurized, the craft would massively fill with smoke if nothing else.

Presumably a well designed carrier would have multiple pressurization zones, but I question that it would be practicable to maintain them in a full on damage control situation. Fire may easily engulf several hundred feet of carrier length without being fatal.

Also munitions and rocket motors are self oxygenating so this sort of mass fire would not be suppressed by low air pressure. Low air pressure would actually reduce your ability to cool this sort of fire via removing radiant heat. It would help with fuel and aircraft fires. But really you just need a huge amount of water and ability to make foam with water.
Simon_Jester wrote: Having as much as possible non essential stuff between outer hull and stuff that absolutely MUST work to keep the ship in the air also probably would help against penetrating hits.
I think the thing to do is take all the torpedo defense volume and armor mass, and make it half as thick, but twice as high so it covers the hanger sides. However no fuel would be stored higher owing to the hazard this would present, most of the fuel would be in the belly and lower sides as it already is. the ships supply of drinking water and firefighting water might instead be along the hanger sides, a position it couldn't occupy on a real carrier because of stability concerns.

I'm going to assume our anti grav can be positioned in such a way as to avoid this problem?

To a point the Nimitz class is already designed this way with the hull plates themselves amounting to a double wall shell of low grade armor.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Sea Skimmer »

For actual numbers I looked up on Nimitz firefighting
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA432176

~flight deck
automatic flight deckwashdown system with AFFF foaming capability
20 zones @ 1000gpm each mixed
16 aircraft elevator AFFF spray nozzles 40gpm each
Some other specific position spray nozzles exist, such as covering the bomb farm, but the reference gives no numbers for them
Also 22 AFFF foaming manned hose stations 1.5in and 2.5in
'numerous' seawater only hose stations

The hanger deck has 14 foam sprinkler groups and 16 foaming hose stations

All foam systems are fed by 20 pumps each with 600 gallons of foam agent and able to move a total of 27,000 gallons per minute of foam and seawater!

So you cant use the entire hanger and flight deck system at once, but that's in fact 112.5 tons of fluid that the ship is thought to need just for the foaming system for the a flight and hanger deck. Not counting all the other firefighting pumping for all the rest of the ship at all.

Catapult tracks have steam fire suppression capability, which is pretty cool since they are a place burning fuel on the flight deck could pool.

I don't think this would be impossible to accept in service, but this ship would just be absurdly downright dangerous in every respect. Its one thing accepting risk, its another thing having a weapon concept which just bleeds money from heavy operational losses. Carrier aviation is already real expensive. I'm not sure this ship would be past acceptable given all IM rocket motors and warheads, and well subdivided magazine storage (presently NOT the case), but it'd be real iffy.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Starglider »

Does it need to be built as a solid brick? As long as high speeds are not required, you could build it as numerous hulls/pods attached to a structural megaframe. That way fire & damage are somewhat compartmentalised. Worst case you might be able to blow the supports to say a burning munitions storage pod with explosive bolts, and jettison it from the ship.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by madd0ct0r »

that would make making it strong enough for rapid turns more difficult. not impossible, but you end up spending even more weight reinforcing the buts that have to carry weight.
And if it's not high speed, why bother?
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Patroklos »

For those of you unfamiliar with AFFF what you use for firefighting in the military is generally a solution of 3% AFFF, 97% water for most applications. So for your weight calculations use water.

There are other mix proportions for other purposes.

On another note, regarding fuel the air carrier would have to use up a much larger portion of its volume for that purpose. In addition to providing lateral thrust for movement which a sea carrier has to do too, it has to perpetually burn fuel to maintain altitude. A ship doesn't have to do that. Granted a ship would burn more fuel per ton for lateral motion due to the higher resistances of water over air, but I doubt that even comes close to he burn rate of maintaining altitude (I assume this thing is not using aerodynamic lift for the purpose). If its a reactor solution disregard, but then whatever reactor you use has to be powerful enough to support lateral and vertical movement and vertical sustainment, so still pound for pound much larger than a sea carrier.

Refueling/Rearming/Provisioning is probably not going to work with the air carrier either. While we do have Ariel refueling, is thing going to be able to maintain a speed fast enough to operate with conventional air tankers? And while you can land parts/munitions/provisions via COD that is just a drop in the bucket. Sea carriers do this via UNREPS with large supply ships, I see no way to do this with an air carrier.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

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Purple wrote:Er... I just have one question. If this technology allows something the size of an aircraft carrier to fly, and does so at an energy efficiency that dwarfs anything we can put out today (given that it's superior to making the thing fly with conventional means this is a given) why not just use it on the fighter jets to begin with? Why do you even need an aircraft carrier when all your aircraft just became perfect, land anywhere, take off from anywhere, VTOL? You could literally restructure your entire air force to be composed out of nothing but supply trucks and VTOL jets. Why do you even need an aircraft carrier?
Early on it was established that, for purposes of this argument, the technology cannot be miniaturized enough to use on anything smaller than a warship.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Purple »

Ted C wrote:Early on it was established that, for purposes of this argument, the technology cannot be miniaturized enough to use on anything smaller than a warship.
That makes sense than. Thanks for clearing it up. I must have missed it somehow.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Patroklos »

This thing will need far more structural integrity than a sea carrier now that I think about it. Not only to survive the stresses of vertical movement, but also because just sitting motionless it doesn't have water supporting a keel.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

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Patroklos wrote:Refueling/Rearming/Provisioning is probably not going to work with the air carrier either. While we do have Ariel refueling, is thing going to be able to maintain a speed fast enough to operate with conventional air tankers? And while you can land parts/munitions/provisions via COD that is just a drop in the bucket. Sea carriers do this via UNREPS with large supply ships, I see no way to do this with an air carrier.
I would assume the Navy/Chair Force would build bigass aerial supply ships alongside it to transfer fuel and expendable materials same as a wet carrier would from bigass wet supply ships. Plus if the ship is designed to land it, unlike a sea carrier, can land at any base big enough to hold the aerial behemoth and shovel in new supplies that way.

Also I doubt fuel, atleast for the carrier, would be much of a problem considering Sky Cap'n said the ship is pretty much like a blimp. Sips fuel to hover and only burns it to move around. It would start taxing the nuke reactor if its doing a shitton of maneuvers but sitting still at whatever altitude doing its carrier thang not a problem.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Patroklos »

He said 100MW just to levitate a 100ton vessel. So not a lot (one Nimitz-class reactor 550MW), but not chump change either.

So how does lateral propulsion work on this thing. How do you transfer nuclear electric energy into aviation propulsion if you are using a common energy source for anti grave and propulsion? Do you not do that? Is it just some big propellers? I doubt you would want to use additional jet engines due to fuel requirements. Having giant props pose some operational challenges.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Terralthra »

Why would you need a separate combustion jet engine? You have a gigantic source of heat right there in your reactor. Compress air, apply waste heat, expel air out the back. This is an already tested machine.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Patroklos »

Tested, not developed further and certainly not used. And certainly not used to propel 100K tons. So are we going to tack on this amazing new technology too? But sure, you could go that route. What would the effects of a jet engine that big be? What would be a safe altitude to employ it? There is already complaints about the sound of the F35 being inappropriate for use near civilians, what would this thing put out?

On a related note, what would be the ethics of flying a nuclear reactor half the world wands to shoot down over populated land masses? Sure we use nuclear powered ships but at least they have a good chance of being under millions of gallons of water and on the bottom of the ocean while relatively intact and compact. Not necessarily so with a nuclear aircraft. Not to mention the effects of 100K in steal and titanium crashing down from altitude somewhere! I wonder what that would look like.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

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Amazing new technology? I suspect it'd be easier to build a propulsive nuclear turbine at this point then building any of our modern turbofan engines which are just insanely complex and hard to build (thus why China still can't do it). It'd operate cooler overall (because the nuke heat just isn't that hot), it'd lack the corrosive problems created by jet fuel and it would not be required to start cold because you could constantly keep it warm with a preheater running off the nuclear reactor's decay heat, even with said reactor is shutdown.

Also with two coolant loops you could keep all radiation out of the turbine. The aircraft designs normally only had one loop to save weight, so the turbine had to eat some rads. Though some late ~1970s era nuclear plane concepts did have two loops. No radiation makes the materials choices much easier.

The danger of the reactor falling out of the sky though, yeah, that's kinda a not solveable problem. You could have crush protection to make it unlikely the reactor would physically split open on impact (NASA designed something like this for nuclear hovercraft to survive ~100 knot direct impacts), but no way can you ensure against meltdown with a reactor having high power density. Pebble Beds are rather bulky. If the ship crashed hardyou'd have to think in terms of burying it in place in a mound of clay or something until it cooled down.

Cities could be avoided easily enough, but you'd also have to avoid things like the headwaters of rivers which supply drinking water to cities and key farmland, which would be a big problem.

Moving the ship with gas turbines is certainly not out of the question though. It will just burn fuel like crazy, so you'd probably want to build a 100,000 ton flying tanker to go with it, which would refuel from sea going tankers.
Starglider wrote:Does it need to be built as a solid brick?
It does if you want to have hanger and bulkheads strong enough not to be torn apart open by heavy explosions at a reasonable weight.

As long as high speeds are not required, you could build it as numerous hulls/pods attached to a structural megaframe.
So all the pods are now non structural for the overall ship, but still have to meet all our other strength and protective requirements, which means the total mass of the ship will skyrocket. Meanwhile that frame is now a bunch of narrow girders vulnerable to being completely severed by single weapon hits. How much more mass do you expect to tac on to have redundant strength to avoid that risk?

Remember anti ship missiles capable of hitting a specific predesignated point on the target, with an accuracy in single digit feet, are already a service reality in the world today, such as the Norwegian NSM. The enemy would certainly program his missiles to aim for the girders and breakup the ship. We'd be loosing one of the few advantages we could get out of this flying ship, which is not needing a keeling via distributing the anti grav system throughout the ship.

You want strength in a warship as distributed and protected as possible, not concentrated into vulnerable strakes. All the extra mass a girder and pod configuration would require would be better spent on more armor. You can't armor enough to stop penetration, but thickening all the internal bulkheads would help localize damage while also making structural strength more redundant, less at risk from heat induced structural failure ect....


That way fire & damage are somewhat compartmentalised. Worst case you might be able to blow the supports to say a burning munitions storage pod with explosive bolts, and jettison it from the ship.
Ah, explosive bolts that make parts of the ship fall off. What happens when those are in the compartment that caught on fire first?

Also bolts as a concept are bad for the structure of a warship. They weigh more then welding for the same strength and they fail from shock damage easier then good welding. This is why people stopped riveting hulls not long after WW2, though it began phasing out around WW1 when welding hulls first became possible.

Overall your concept might make a lot of sense for say, a ammunition or vehicle transport ship not intended for frontline combat and not manned heavily enough for damage control anyway, yet filled with flammables, but its just a terrible idea on a warship crewed by humans.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by InsaneTD »

biostem wrote:
Batman wrote:Because it doesn't work on anything massing less than 100,000 tons. Blam. No antigravity for fighters. Just because a technology is available doesn't mean it scales arbitrarily, leave alone cost-effectively.
Also, the magic antigravity device gives you lift, not propulsion so you'd still need a launch base inside the aircraft's powered range, which isn't going to change much because of antigravity (most military airplanes tend to move a lot faster than the minimum needed to maintain aerodynamic lift anyway because they usually need to get where they're sent ASAP).
If we work from the premise that said antigrav tech *only* works on very large objects, then you'd still be better off making the vehicle to the minimum required size, and using unmanned drones, (could be launched form a catapult or via rocket assist), and carrying a nice sized payload of cannons/railguns/missiles to supplement the ranged punch. You'd just want to make sure to have enough of a ranged punch to be able to hit enemies from beyond their ability to simply lob dumb AA shells at you.
100 000 was the max each could carry, it was the the size of the sphere (25m) and the amount of constant power needed for the sphere (100mw). A small destroyer is probably the most efficient design, it can be armoured on just about every surface, be seemed to shoot things in every arc, would be faster then the aerocarrier and require less crew.

How well do multiple of these spheres work together? Could you have four of them working to hold up something bigger? You've listed power needed as a 100mw and its capable of lifting 100 000 ton, is that the power required for that lift, or is it just 100mw and neutral buoyancy no matter what?
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

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Sea Skimmer wrote:I don't think this would be impossible to accept in service, but this ship would just be absurdly downright dangerous in every respect. Its one thing accepting risk, its another thing having a weapon concept which just bleeds money from heavy operational losses. Carrier aviation is already real expensive. I'm not sure this ship would be past acceptable given all IM rocket motors and warheads, and well subdivided magazine storage (presently NOT the case), but it'd be real iffy.
One way to partially mitigate this could be to prefer to operate near rivers and lakes when over land. Obviously not always possible, but if there are suitable natural source of water nearby then hover on top of it, deploy water intake and firefighting procedure would become similar to firefighting on a real carrier. If over large desert then yeah, major fire could mean loss of ship. Maybe magazines could be designed to be ejected if major fire develops there, but there is no guarantee the system wouldn't jam after a missile hit.
Sea Skimmer wrote:I'm going to assume our anti grav can be positioned in such a way as to avoid this problem?
Yes, it would have to be able to maintain balance even when weight is distributed unevenly otherwise also normal operations may not be possible or become very dangerous
Patroklos wrote:The problem is that "stuff that keeps the ship in the air" is probably stuff that is required to be on the outside of the ship just like props or jet engines.
Those are needed only to move, anti gravity gizmo that maintains lift do not need to be outside and can be armored if necessary. In general if taking heavy enemy fire a mobility kill would come well before lift kill. A large ship would have several redundant anti gravity devices so even a lucky hit that manage to penetrate and disable one would not make instant crash.
Patroklos wrote:So how does lateral propulsion work on this thing. How do you transfer nuclear electric energy into aviation propulsion if you are using a common energy source for anti grave and propulsion? Do you not do that? Is it just some big propellers? I doubt you would want to use additional jet engines due to fuel requirements. Having giant props pose some operational challenges.
Since this thing probably would not cruise much faster than 200 - 300 km/h large electric ducted fans may be propulsion system of choice. Turbofans running directly on reactor heat also should work, not sure which would be more efficient or practical.
InsaneTD wrote:100 000 was the max each could carry, it was the the size of the sphere (25m) and the amount of constant power needed for the sphere (100mw). A small destroyer is probably the most efficient design, it can be armoured on just about every surface, be seemed to shoot things in every arc, would be faster then the aerocarrier and require less crew.
Destroyer certainly would be easier to build and operate. Also since it could get away with less endurance than carrier it could use gas turbines for power without need for nuclear reactors avoiding radiation hazards in case of crash.
InsaneTD wrote:How well do multiple of these spheres work together? Could you have four of them working to hold up something bigger? You've listed power needed as a 100mw and its capable of lifting 100 000 ton, is that the power required for that lift, or is it just 100mw and neutral buoyancy no matter what?
Yes, you could put several together for more lift or more redundancy. Or make one larger to produce more lift. 25 m were just smallest practical size, larger is possible. I assumed they give neutral buoyancy and propulsion must be provided by other means otherwise it would become too easy. 100 MW were for 100 000 tons. It scales linearly, a 50 000 ton battleship/destroyer would need 50 MW to give it neutral buoyancy.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Sky Captain wrote:[
One way to partially mitigate this could be to prefer to operate near rivers and lakes when over land. Obviously not always possible, but if there are suitable natural source of water nearby then hover on top of it, deploy water intake and firefighting procedure would become similar to firefighting on a real carrier. If over large desert then yeah, major fire could mean loss of ship. Maybe magazines could be designed to be ejected if major fire develops there, but there is no guarantee the system wouldn't jam after a missile hit.
Any ejection system would be a huge vulnerability from the shear size required. Nimitz class magazines have a capacity for something like 3,000 tons of ordnance. The total ship length involved is a couple hundred feet, the full width of the hold and several decks high. So as you can imagine from that just opening up bomb bay doors isn't really an option. And if it WAS an option the hell do we need the PLANES for? Just build the whole carrier as an armored superbomber!

You could make the mag spaces smaller of course but the value of the ship is rapidly erodeddoing this. Particularly since storage of many types of weapons like missiles is more limited by volume then weight anyway. So the reduction in need for as many big heavy bombs thanks to precision weapons doesn't actually help matters as much as it might.

You could consider blowoff panels to vent the energy of deflagration, but even these IM bombs ect... are going to require magazine flooding to avoid cooking the entire mass until it can explode anyway. IM standards include a fuel fire cookoff test, but its in the open air, not contained inside steel decks and heated by burning explosives which will be hotter and faster. Water sprays could buy time but have never been considered more then a delaying measure.

Landing near a river would work, but this means giving up your air mobility and thus far more likely that the ship is attacked again because of the predictable location + giant plume of smoke giving away your position 50 miles away to the naked eye. We can certainly muse about still moving along the length of the ship while dragging hoses to pump up water, but even that's got some serious limitations. Bridges ect, steep banks, the loss of pressure from the extra suction height ect.. Probably you'd would want pumps in the water on floats powered by electric cables or even use integrally powered diesel or gas turbine pumps.

Seems all and all thinking about it like a problem you can certainly manage, but its just that basic issue of the standard of risk being much much higher, with the surely more expensive ship accepting it. The nuclear power I don't even figure into that statement.
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by LaCroix »

I think we should take a step back and discuss the role of such a flying carrier. As noted, with missile armament and gun ranges from the elevated position, fighters only make sense as a range extender, but they add a huge operational strain on the ship. Their roles for a wet carrier (air support/reconaissance/striking) could easily be replaced by different systems once you've got a flying platform to base them on.

Air defense:
You already have the factor of high altitude working for you - now slap an ( or some) Aegis system(s) on in, add a metric shit-ton of SM variant missile loads. Add some of the naval lasers (they would do very well up in the air where they find less resistance). Backup with some Phalanx systems for close range. Enemy fire should be nicely supressed.

Reconaissance:
There is the possibility to use satellite uplinks, UAVs and whatnot. Apart from the fact that you already have AEGIS than can look down on everything and could probably have an oversized version of AWACS bolted to the carrier, itself, if needed.

Striking:
Cruise missiles and SRBM (maybe even some MRBM capability, but that might be overkill) and something akin to anti-ship ballistic missiles. Add some railguns and a bit of conventional 155mm artillery, and it should give you ample firepower, as is. The defense lasers should have some offensive capability, too.
I think such an 'carrier' would mostly be used to launch Predator-like drones to extend it's fighting range, but would act as a missile cruiser in most engagements.

So why bother with getting a lot of fuel and aircraft on board, with additionalspace and systems dedicated to store and move them around, launch and supply/repair them, and house the crew needed to operate them. Why deal with their operation (on a flying flight dack, no less) and hazards (including massively increased need to fight fires) and the supply problem when you could use that space to stockpile ammunition and weapon systems?
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Re: Flying aircraft carriers

Post by Sky Captain »

It is possible that the whole design would evolve into a missile destroyer maybe with some UAVs on board for recon and some limited strike capability. You could put maybe thousand or more cruise missiles into a space taken up by air wing of a Nimitz class carrier. If laser weapons are widespread then fighter jets could be too vulnerable and only way to attack positions defended with lasers is to launch saturation attacks with tons of missiles or shoot back with your own lasers. Aerial destroyer may be more suitable for this task than air wing of a carrier.
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