Asgard is invaded by none other than.... Lord Vader

[cmdrjones]

The palace is shown to have shielding, brought down by internal sabotage of the generator before fully raising. Seemed to go up slowly though, maybe a minute or so to be fully up. Whether or not the rest have shields that weren't manned is unknown. No idea whatsoever on what kind of firepower it can absorb.

That said, this RAR is about whether or not Asgard can be invaded. It does seem unlikely that Asgard has no other defenses given the universe they know full well exists. I think perhaps they rely on Heimdal here, who was more or less defeated by the DE stealth. The idea that Asgard would have no recourse against a Kree ship like we saw in Guardians seems a little absurd but that's more or less what we're talking about here. I think a prepared Asgard would fare significantly better than the ambushed one in TDW.

heimdall wasn't TOTALLY defeated byt he DE stealth, remember he saw through it soon enough to do his flying ninja knife climb of immediate combustion on it... but that was a Fighter craft launched from the DE carrier, Neither the ISD nor any TIES or AT-ATs will be able to land/approach so close without being seen. That means Asgard will likely have prep time, I doubt that the Imperials will CARE per se, but that means that Asgard will put up stiffer resistance than we saw in TDW. PS Odin mentions 10,000 Asgardian spears, so we can use that as a rough numbers count of Asgardians, if they can even partially shield thier city, then if they force the 501st to come down and fight them at close range, they could put a real hurting on them.
Also, the Bifrost bridge is a wild card, I supposed if it can be used as a weapon it COULD destroy an ISD, but can it target one? Somehow i doubt it.

[Kojiro]

heimdall wasn't TOTALLY defeated byt he DE stealth, remember he saw through it soon enough to do his flying ninja knife climb of immediate combustion on it...

Heimdal is an early warning system. I'll grant you they didn't get as close as desired but for a guy who can see the kinds of distances he can, they got pretty damned close.

PS Odin mentions 10,000 Asgardian spears, so we can use that as a rough numbers count of Asgardians, if they can even partially shield thier city, then if they force the 501st to come down and fight them at close range, they could put a real hurting on them.

Well imagine trying to go door to door in a city full of wookies. The average Asgardian would be stronger than that.

Also, the Bifrost bridge is a wild card, I supposed if it can be used as a weapon it COULD destroy an ISD, but can it target one? Somehow i doubt it.

Why couldn't it? Range isn't going to be an issue and it's been shown to be nothing if not accurate. The only question really would be how long it takes to defeat the ISD shields (assuming it can).

[Elheru Aran]

As an example of Bifrost's accuracy: in Dark World, after Thor finds Jane in the warehouse, he summons the Rainbow Bridge. It hits right on top of Jane and him. We are talking a bull's eye across (an admittedly magical and highly wonky universe-system spanning) light-years. Somehow I doubt it's going to be much of a problem for Heimdall to blast ISD's out of the sky. The only question is how fast it can traverse, so to speak, and it appears to be but a matter of seconds whenever Heimdall dials it up with the big sword.

[cmdrjones]

As an example of Bifrost's accuracy: in Dark World, after Thor finds Jane in the warehouse, he summons the Rainbow Bridge. It hits right on top of Jane and him. We are talking a bull's eye across (an admittedly magical and highly wonky universe-system spanning) light-years. Somehow I doubt it's going to be much of a problem for Heimdall to blast ISD's out of the sky. The only question is how fast it can traverse, so to speak, and it appears to be but a matter of seconds whenever Heimdall dials it up with the big sword.

that's a good point. I HAD thought it was primarily used for ravaging jotunheim and thus a planetary destruction weapon, when used as such. So, in theory Thor could swing Mjolnir, fly up on top of an advancing ISD and summon the bifrost to smash the crap out of it?
Now there's a visual:

"Lord Vader, we have this Asgard place within range, it is partially shielded, but we can land the 501st and Blizzard force in these outlying regions here, here and here, and then advance towards the palace. They seem armed only with primitive hand weapons and...

"I sense a disturbance in the-WHAT?!"

Thor, Wielding mighty Mjolnir lands with a crash on the Dorsal surface of the Executor and stares defiantly up at the command bridge.
"How is that possible!" Shouts Piett, "Blast him!"
A nearby Turbo Laser Turret swivels in his direction and Thor leaps away, lands on another spot and then slams his hammer down on handle first on the Ships massive armored hull, instantly he is engulfed in a cascade of incredible energy which begins to spread over the ship, engulfing and hammering at the shields.
"uh-oh," Darth Vader says.

[Perseid]

PS Odin mentions 10,000 Asgardian spears, so we can use that as a rough numbers count of Asgardians, if they can even partially shield thier city, then if they force the 501st to come down and fight them at close range, they could put a real hurting on them.

We know from The Well in Agents of Shield that not all Asgardians' are in the army (since they used everyday citizens as berserker's). So 10,000 spears is likely to just be the standing army or the guard force...

[cmdrjones]

PS Odin mentions 10,000 Asgardian spears, so we can use that as a rough numbers count of Asgardians, if they can even partially shield thier city, then if they force the 501st to come down and fight them at close range, they could put a real hurting on them.

We know from The Well in Agents of Shield that not all Asgardians' are in the army (since they used everyday citizens as berserker's). So 10,000 spears is likely to just be the standing army or the guard force...

good catch, I should have said: A rought numbers count of Asgardian TROOPS.... thanks

[Kojiro]

that's a good point. I HAD thought it was primarily used for ravaging jotunheim and thus a planetary destruction weapon, when used as such. So, in theory Thor could swing Mjolnir, fly up on top of an advancing ISD and summon the bifrost to smash the crap out of it?

It's worth noting that Loki was able to use the Bifrost to pick up Laufey and his bodyguards from Jotunheim in the first movie. This is a tool which, even when deployed perfectly, is still potentially lethal. Look at the pick up in TDW of Jane and Thor. Perfectly accurate without so much of a word, just a glance up to Heimdal yet the edges of the beam still slice the front off a BMW (and drag it to Asgard). So it seems reasonable to suggest that aiming the beam is in some way assisted, so much so one needn't possess Heimdal's sight to pick up a small group with confidence. Picking out an ISD, even without Thor or anyone else to lock on to, should be relatively simple.

That said, we know that Asgardian technology/magic can relay images/sound from Earth to Asgard at FTL speeds due to the Destroyer. Who knows what observation tech they have scattered across the realms?

In fact, rewatching Thor the Bifrost works by creating a portal of sorts, a distortion some short distance from Asgard that the beam enters. Presumably a similar portal opens near the target and the beam finishes it's path to the ground. The portal is quite visible as Loki falls, sticking around a few seconds after the Bifrost's destruction. He falls in and disappears, perhaps explaining how he gets to Earth. This portal would also account for the otherwise odd 'blackout' section of the internal Bifrost ride we get in TDW. Not that this is really relevant to anything, just something I noticed rewatching the relevant scenes.

We know from The Well in Agents of Shield that not all Asgardians' are in the army (since they used everyday citizens as berserker's). So 10,000 spears is likely to just be the standing army or the guard force...

Isn't that slightly more than an Imperial Legion? Which is the usual troop capacity of such an ISD?

[Perseid]

We know from The Well in Agents of Shield that not all Asgardians' are in the army (since they used everyday citizens as berserker's). So 10,000 spears is likely to just be the standing army or the guard force...

Isn't that slightly more than an Imperial Legion? Which is the usual troop capacity of such an ISD?

According to Wookiepedia an ISD 1 carries 9700 troops plus vehicles, though with the changes in Canon policy I'm not sure whether that's still official in any meaningful way.

[cmdrjones]

We know from The Well in Agents of Shield that not all Asgardians' are in the army (since they used everyday citizens as berserker's). So 10,000 spears is likely to just be the standing army or the guard force...

Isn't that slightly more than an Imperial Legion? Which is the usual troop capacity of such an ISD?

According to Wookiepedia an ISD 1 carries 9700 troops plus vehicles, though with the changes in Canon policy I'm not sure whether that's still official in any meaningful way.

Then unless those vehicles or fire support from an ISD can turn the tide significantly, I think we have a MAD situation here. Bifrost > ISD for bombardement purposes, yet AT-ATs + AT-STs + 501st > 10,000 Asgardians with Hand weapons. If the ISD can get in range without being blasted out of the sky, then I think it can do major damage to unshielded portions of ASgard (which is most of it) but taking the palace by storm would result in heaps of dead Stormtroopers all over the streets.
With Thor and his buddies around, it could turn Agards way, even on the ground.
I say unless the Imperials gain surprise, I give this to Asgard due to defense advantage and crazy superweapon bonus.

[Kojiro]

If you actually look at Asgard the terrain looks exceedingly unfriendly to AT-ATs. AT-STs could probably move about but it's very uneven and cluttered, at least the portions we've seen. It'd be almost a door to door fight. It's also worth noting those Asgardian gunboats had two weapon systems we saw- the direct fire cannons and an anime style missile spam.

I'm honestly not sure what kind of damage a storm trooper's blaster would do to an Asgardian. When we see the clones killing jedi the damage doesn't seem massive to what are presumably human or analogues. That'll be where it turns I'd say.

Can we assume that Vader vs Odin, in Asgard, will result in Odin's victory?

[cmdrjones]

If you actually look at Asgard the terrain looks exceedingly unfriendly to AT-ATs. AT-STs could probably move about but it's very uneven and cluttered, at least the portions we've seen. It'd be almost a door to door fight. It's also worth noting those Asgardian gunboats had two weapon systems we saw- the direct fire cannons and an anime style missile spam.

I'm honestly not sure what kind of damage a storm trooper's blaster would do to an Asgardian. When we see the clones killing jedi the damage doesn't seem massive to what are presumably human or analogues. That'll be where it turns I'd say.

Can we assume that Vader vs Odin, in Asgard, will result in Odin's victory?

as to point 1: granted, there are a lot of river valleys and waterways and moutain peaks, not to mention extreme urban architechture. Imperial ground forces will be in trouble almost immediately.

Point 2: We see Asgardians warding off DE blaster bolts with thier shields, if their armor is made of a similar substance then it could offer at least SOME protection against blaster bolts. There is a BIG difference between a "one shot kill" and a "hammer away till it dies" approach in close combat.

Point 3: not so sure, we see vader warding off blaster bolts quite easily along with his TK feats and superior strength, he is a well known quantity and a serious challenge. Odin OTOH, we haven't seen him DO much, he slayed a Dark elf with hi energy spear with contemptuous ease, and his mere appearance on the battlefield was enough to put the Frost giants on thier heels, but how much of that is Rep vs actual badassitude? I knwo anthony hopkins is lder than dirt we can't expect him to do kung fu in armor, but we go off of visual evidence no? Also, he DOES reclaim Mjolnir with ridiculous ease and sends Thor packing, so we can assume his control of Asgardian tech is absolute, which I assume is the origin of your caveat: "in Asgard"?
After pondering I say this is a tie, could go either way, unless we see more from Odin, it may be even a "not enough information" situation.

[Perseid]

Point 3: not so sure, we see vader warding off blaster bolts quite easily along with his TK feats and superior strength, he is a well known quantity and a serious challenge. Odin OTOH, we haven't seen him DO much, he slayed a Dark elf with hi energy spear with contemptuous ease, and his mere appearance on the battlefield was enough to put the Frost giants on thier heels, but how much of that is Rep vs actual badassitude? I knwo anthony hopkins is lder than dirt we can't expect him to do kung fu in armor, but we go off of visual evidence no? Also, he DOES reclaim Mjolnir with ridiculous ease and sends Thor packing, so we can assume his control of Asgardian tech is absolute, which I assume is the origin of your caveat: "in Asgard"?
After pondering I say this is a tie, could go either way, unless we see more from Odin, it may be even a "not enough information" situation.

I'd give it to Odin as we see at the end of Thor that he is also insanely fast, at least while within Asgard, being able to go from being in Odinsleep to appearing at exactly the right moment to catch Thor by the ankle thereby saving both Thor and Loki from falling. I can't remember how long it takes to happen but it took Thor a while to fly down the rainbow bridge to stop Loki whereas Odin was just suddenly there, teleportation or super speed are possibilities.

I would think that while within the confines of Asgard that Odin would be difficult if not impossible to match, though I can't remember if we see him in battle against any of the Dark Elves.

[NecronLord]

Point 3: not so sure, we see vader warding off blaster bolts quite easily along with his TK feats and superior strength, he is a well known quantity and a serious challenge. Odin OTOH, we haven't seen him DO much, he slayed a Dark elf with hi energy spear with contemptuous ease, and his mere appearance on the battlefield was enough to put the Frost giants on thier heels, but how much of that is Rep vs actual badassitude? I knwo anthony hopkins is lder than dirt we can't expect him to do kung fu in armor, but we go off of visual evidence no? Also, he DOES reclaim Mjolnir with ridiculous ease and sends Thor packing, so we can assume his control of Asgardian tech is absolute, which I assume is the origin of your caveat: "in Asgard"?
After pondering I say this is a tie, could go either way, unless we see more from Odin, it may be even a "not enough information" situation.

I'd give it to Odin as we see at the end of Thor that he is also insanely fast, at least while within Asgard, being able to go from being in Odinsleep to appearing at exactly the right moment to catch Thor by the ankle thereby saving both Thor and Loki from falling. I can't remember how long it takes to happen but it took Thor a while to fly down the rainbow bridge to stop Loki whereas Odin was just suddenly there, teleportation or super speed are possibilities.

Possibly he rode Slepnir offscreen at some point there?

[Kojiro]

Point 2: We see Asgardians warding off DE blaster bolts with thier shields, if their armor is made of a similar substance then it could offer at least SOME protection against blaster bolts. There is a BIG difference between a "one shot kill" and a "hammer away till it dies" approach in close combat.

It's rather odd, when hit on the shield the blast seems to be harmlessly absorbed but a hit to the torso seems to instantly drop the target without so much as tarnishing the armour. I'm honestly not sure how analogous they'd be to a SW blaster. I think though that Asgardians would fare better against blasters.

Point 3: not so sure, we see vader warding off blaster bolts quite easily along with his TK feats and superior strength, he is a well known quantity and a serious challenge. Odin OTOH, we haven't seen him DO much, he slayed a Dark elf with hi energy spear with contemptuous ease, and his mere appearance on the battlefield was enough to put the Frost giants on thier heels, but how much of that is Rep vs actual badassitude? I knwo anthony hopkins is lder than dirt we can't expect him to do kung fu in armor, but we go off of visual evidence no? Also, he DOES reclaim Mjolnir with ridiculous ease and sends Thor packing, so we can assume his control of Asgardian tech is absolute, which I assume is the origin of your caveat: "in Asgard"?
After pondering I say this is a tie, could go either way, unless we see more from Odin, it may be even a "not enough information" situation.

Well we do also see Odin at the start of Thor 1. Granted he's a thousand years or so younger but I'd be loathe to ascribe him any less prowess than Thor. We've seen Gungnir put out enough power to literally obliterate frost giants (in the hands of Loki no less). That said a similar blast didn't penetrate Thor's armour, but it did send him through the palace wall. It seems likely that Thor has superior armour to the average soldier and I would expect no less for Odin. I'm not sure I'd say it's lightsaber proof but it'd have to be the best Asgard can make which should be pretty good. We've also seen him pick up and hurl a frost giant several meters and I doubt they're light.

As to his command of Asgardian tech, we've seen him activate the Destroyer (how he even knew to do so isn't known but he clearly did) and power up the Bifrost (when banishing Thor) with what appears to be little more than a mental command. That's hardly surprising given Mjolnir at the least is well known for responding to telepathic commands, as is the Destroyer.

He's also a 'lead from the front' kind of guy, as we've seen he was literally at the head of the defence of Earth (as his father was on the battlefield against the Dark Elves) and he personally fought his way to and defeated Laufey. I think it's fair to say he'd be an excellent fighter, though it's possible that age is starting to affect him- he is/was after all looking to hand the crown (and it's duties, though that seems to have occurred in TDW) to Thor. His prowess as a warrior is almost certainly not what it once was but I still think Odin has it.

[NecronLord]

Really I'm not sure how there's debate; at best it's some decent infantry with some light aircraft and turret guns, fighting a full combined arms force.

[Elheru Aran]

I think the general idea is that the possibly superior strength of the Asgardians, the terrain, and their (pretty much unquantified) technology and heroes will give them an edge. I can buy it, but it's not a terribly formidable edge.

The Asgardians do have the disadvantage in that they've got civilians and families involved in the fight (unless there was something in the OP about them being removed... looks like a no).

[Adam Reynolds]

As to the idea of Asgardians being equivalent to wookies, the Empire subjected them without any serious trouble. That was Chewbacca's backstory, that Han freed him from slavery. Though in the now presumably non-canon novel Dark Lord, when it was shown, the Empire began relying heavily on orbital bombardment when their ground forces got bogged down fighting in the massive and quite deadly forests*. Though Asgard, being a city, would in most respects be an easier environment to attack. Also the wookies at the time had just fought a serious military campaign against the CIS and were extremely well armed and equipped to fight the mechanized enemy and immediately after Order 66 recognized that it was inevitable they would then fight the Republic. Asgardians have nothing but spears.

Amusingly, when I started reading this thread the SKWEEG(electric guitar found on Mike's media page) version of the Imperial March began playing from my random playlist.

* Given that this conflicted somewhat with the ROTS depiction which even featured a beach landing, is it still canon? ROTS also seemed to show that the wookies were already being subjugated immediately after the events of Order 66.

[Kojiro]

As to the idea of Asgardians being equivalent to wookies, the Empire subjected them without any serious trouble.

That's your problem right there. The Empire isn't present, just a lone ISD. Secondly this is about invading Asgard and seizing it, not orbital bombarding it into dust (which they could almost certainly do if the Bifrost can't take out the ISD quick enough). There's little doubt orbital bombardment by the Empire wouldn't flatten most places.

Asgardians aren't just as strong as wookies, they's significantly stronger. A wookie can pull your arms off but an Asgardian- a regular pleb Asgardian past his prime can pluck steel handcuffs off his wrists like he's picking off lint or crush a knife like cardboard in his bare hand. Sif can send a bus several meters sideways with a standing kick. Even the sorceress Lorelei can backhand a man a half a dozen meters.

There is also the matter of the durability. Again they're not all Thor but they're stupidly tough and they heal absurdly fast too. What we really need to know is 'what happens when a Stormtrooper shoots one?' We just don't know how their armour works vs SW blasters. I don't recall blasters causing massive damage to humans and I can only assume their effect on Asgardians would be lessened. That pleb mentioned above survived a 3" pole through the chest. By the end of the scene he's regained consciousness and the next morning shows no signs of being injured at all. Granted I don't know just what damage a E-11 does to a body but I feel like it's going to take more than one shot to down an armoured Asgardian soldier, especially if you want them to stay down. But that's just my impression from watching all the relevant movies/shows.

[Havok]

Absolutely not happening. Vader goes home and has to buy some new body parts.

Odin alone is a cosmic level force, like Galactus and shit. Like I said in another thread, it is to the glee of the rest of the big shots in the MU that he and his dad think the 9 Realms are the be all end all of everything and fucking stay there. I'm assuming this is the MCU though so we'll shelf that version of the Odin Force as we haven't actually seen it in action yet.

So lets start with Thor. He alone could fry the TIE fighters they can send and if he can't fry them he can blow them fucking down. Those big panels are going to love his wind.
As for Thor vs Vader... Mjolnir is crafted from the heart of a dying fucking star. Lightsabers are made in a shop. Assuming the Force is a go, how well is Vader going to be able to concentrate when his opponent can literally fly at mach speeds and has a weapon that will blast him in the back of the head on it's way back to Thor way faster than anything we have ever seen Vader do with the Force. Oh yeah and lighting.

As to the rest of the Imperials "threat".
Stormtroopers are not going to be any kind of match for Asgardian soldiers. Each one in their own right is like a super soldier. I'm going to assume that the Asgardian city shield is at least as powerful as the shield on Hoth as Asgardian tech generates enough power to open wormholes and sustain a floating chunk of magical planet in a non moving state in another dimension. 9 in fact. So anything that the Devastator can fire is going to be negated.

AT-ATs? I hear giant slow moving monsters fare well in Asgard.

I mean, total curbstomp. So go ahead and give him Death Squadron. Maybe, and I stress MAYBE, with the shear amount of fire the whole fleet can bring to bear and the fuck ton of TIEs and walkers now available, and proper tactics, there may be some amount of attrition. Still though, you have Odin, Thor, the Warriors Three, Loki (because he won't let anyone attack Asgard without his say-so and involvement), Heimdale, The Destroyer and on and on and on. I mean you are never taking Asgard. I doubt the Imperial forces ever get a foothold and could probably do nothing more that surround Asgard and make believe they have them blockaded.

Really, the only advantage the Empire has in this situation is the Star Destroyer's sheer size and their turbo lasers. And that's only because he haven't seen Asgard with anything to match.

The final and last question is do Wars shields keep out Asgardian teleport tech? If not they are proper fucked.

[Havok]

Oh and the Bifrost Bridge which when left on, doubles as a planet/realm destroying canon with pin point accuracy provided by Heimdal.
C'mon guys.

[cmdrjones]

Absolutely not happening. Vader goes home and has to buy some new body parts.

Odin alone is a cosmic level force, like Galactus and shit. Like I said in another thread, it is to the glee of the rest of the big shots in the MU that he and his dad think the 9 Realms are the be all end all of everything and fucking stay there. I'm assuming this is the MCU though so we'll shelf that version of the Odin Force as we haven't actually seen it in action yet.

So lets start with Thor. He alone could fry the TIE fighters they can send and if he can't fry them he can blow them fucking down. Those big panels are going to love his wind.
As for Thor vs Vader... Mjolnir is crafted from the heart of a dying fucking star. Lightsabers are made in a shop. Assuming the Force is a go, how well is Vader going to be able to concentrate when his opponent can literally fly at mach speeds and has a weapon that will blast him in the back of the head on it's way back to Thor way faster than anything we have ever seen Vader do with the Force. Oh yeah and lighting.

As to the rest of the Imperials "threat".
Stormtroopers are not going to be any kind of match for Asgardian soldiers. Each one in their own right is like a super soldier. I'm going to assume that the Asgardian city shield is at least as powerful as the shield on Hoth as Asgardian tech generates enough power to open wormholes and sustain a floating chunk of magical planet in a non moving state in another dimension. 9 in fact. So anything that the Devastator can fire is going to be negated.

AT-ATs? I hear giant slow moving monsters fare well in Asgard.

I mean, total curbstomp. So go ahead and give him Death Squadron. Maybe, and I stress MAYBE, with the shear amount of fire the whole fleet can bring to bear and the fuck ton of TIEs and walkers now available, and proper tactics, there may be some amount of attrition. Still though, you have Odin, Thor, the Warriors Three, Loki (because he won't let anyone attack Asgard without his say-so and involvement), Heimdale, The Destroyer and on and on and on. I mean you are never taking Asgard. I doubt the Imperial forces ever get a foothold and could probably do nothing more that surround Asgard and make believe they have them blockaded.

Really, the only advantage the Empire has in this situation is the Star Destroyer's sheer size and their turbo lasers. And that's only because he haven't seen Asgard with anything to match.

The final and last question is do Wars shields keep out Asgardian teleport tech? If not they are proper fucked.

I am amazed at how quickly this thread turned from "Asgard is screwed" to "The Imperials are screwed" even if I DID limit it to movie Asgard. I think it was the Bifrost that was the killing stroke on that one.

[Havok]

It should have never been in doubt. The technology that Asgard shows is fucking ASTONISHING compared to the Empire.

[Havok]

And prep time and the Avengers?

Just teleport Cap to the Star Destroyer with the map of it Heimdale drew.

[Kojiro]

I am amazed at how quickly this thread turned from "Asgard is screwed" to "The Imperials are screwed" even if I DID limit it to movie Asgard. I think it was the Bifrost that was the killing stroke on that one.

To be fair, as far as I'm concerned that's me admitting I just don't know how powerful SW stuff is (but knowing others have extensive knowledge).

I mean to me, SW blasters appear to be slightly more effective than modern rifles, if that. When the Tantive was boarded I didn't see dudes turning into blood smears on the walls. Leia's arm didn't look terribly damaged. Even Luke's cybernetic hand didn't seem to overly damaged by a direct hit. Now I strongly suspect that claiming SW blasters are roughly analogous to modern firearms would be strongly rebutted, so I leave the claims of their firepower up to people who know to say.

It wouldn't surprise me if SW blasters simply irritated Asgardians in general, let alone penetrated their armour.

[Simon_Jester]

There are cases of Star Wars hand weapons doing about as much damage as a modern heavy weapon (i.e. grenade launcher or heavy machine gun), usually to inanimate objects. On the other hand, yes, there are a lot of cases of them just plain not doing more harm than real bullets would.

The typical rationale is that the blasters' power output is variable, which makes a fair amount of sense. It's believable that such a high-tech civilization would have hand weapons capable of dumping hundreds of kilojoules or more into a target... but it's also believable that for practical reasons they wouldn't always use them, because of the risk of an accidental discharge or a missed shot depressurizing your spacecraft or blowing up an important computer.