Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Post Reply
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

She stared at the bandaged stump, and disbelief was a strange sort of anesthesia. There was no pain, and her mind insisted she could feel the fingers on the hand she no longer had, that they still obeyed her, clenching into a fist when she willed them to. But those sensations were lies, and she lay frozen in that moment of stunned awareness while Nimitz pressed still harder against her and his purr burned still deeper and stronger.

"I'm sorry, Ma'am." Her head turned the other way, and she looked up into Fritz Montoya's face. The surgeon's eyes were shadowed, and she felt his mingled regret and sense of guilt as he sat beside her. "There was nothing else I could do," he told her. "There was too much damage, too much—" He stopped and inhaled, then looked her squarely in the eyes. "I didn't have the tools to save it, Ma'am, and if I hadn't amputated, we'd have lost you."
Honor learns that she's been disarmed. Specifically, she's lost the left arm.

She smiled her thanks, but her attention was back on Nimitz as the 'cat moved to lie across her lap. She'd felt the flash of his pain, and her good eye darkened as she absorbed the lurching limp which had replaced his usual smooth gracefulness. She eased him down, settling him as comfortably as possible, and her fingers trembled as she stroked his twisted midshoulder and midlimb. She looked back up at Montoya, and the doctor returned her gaze levelly.

"I did my best with what I had, Skipper," he said, "but the bastards wouldn't give me much. The good news is that aside from the bone and joint damage, he seems to be fine—and if we can get him back home, any good Sphinx veterinary surgeon can repair the bone damage. The bad news is that he'll be in constant low-grade pain, and he won't be climbing any trees until we do get him to a surgeon."
Nimitz is also crippled, at least until he can get serious reconstructive surgery.

"Basically, Ma'am, we're on the surface of the planet Hades. Thanks to the fact that Harkness here is probably the most devious hacker outside a maximum security prison—excuse me; outside any other maximum security prison—we managed to get off Tepes once she was in planetary orbit. More than that, he blew the whole ship the hell up, and the Peeps think we went with her."

"He—?" Honor blinked, then looked at Harkness. "You blew the ship up, Senior Chief?" she asked very carefully.

"Uh, yes, Ma'am," Harkness mumbled, turning an alarming shade of red. "Actually, ah, I sort of, well . . ."

"He demonstrated what happens when a pinnace brings its wedge up inside a boat bay, Skipper," McKeon told her, and Honor blinked again, with a sort of appalled respect.

"I see," she said, and then the right side of her mouth twitched. "Remind me to never, ever get you angry at me, Horace."
Honor's sound-bite version of the escape.

"Yes, Ma'am. It's simple enough: there's not a single thing on the entire planet which a human can metabolize." Honor's eye narrowed, and he nodded. "You've got it, Skipper. They don't need to lock anyone up; all they have to do is lock the prisoners out of the food depot. We don't have figures on the prisoner population, but if the rumors are true, they've been dumping military and political prisoners here for something like seventy years, and most of the people they've dumped had prolong. There have to be thousands of 'inmates' down here, but the Peeps have them spread out across the surface of an entire planet in relatively small packets, and they can't stray far from wherever they were dumped in the first place because that's where the Peeps deliver their rations."

"I see." Honor's fingers stroked Nimitz's ears, and she frowned. "How big is the garrison?"

"Again, we don't have precise figures, but I'd estimate there're around a thousand or fifteen hundred of them. Their main facility is on an island in the middle of Hades' biggest ocean, it's covered by satellite reconnaissance, and according to Tepes' database, they've got light and medium antiair defenses around the base. The only contact between there and the rest of the planet is by air, and once they've been shipped down to the surface, no prisoners are allowed on the island." McKeon shrugged. "Since they control the only food source, and the only means to get to that food source, and the orbital defenses around the planet, security's never been a real big concern for them."
That's an incredibly small garrison for a planet-sized prison, less StateSec goons than there were aboard Tepes. Oh, and they have the ocean around their island base under constant satellite surveillance, and serious AA defenses just in case the prisoners do manage to seize one of their cargo shuttles someday. He's a bit wrong in that there are prisoners on the island, under high-security, tilling the fields that grow food for everyone.

"We're also pretty sure the Peeps don't know we're here," McKeon went on. "From what Harkness pulled out of Tepes' database, they've got a good satellite surveillance net, but it concentrates on covering their main facility, and we touched down on the far side of the planet. We made dead-stick approaches without using impeller drive, too, and we didn't cut in the countergrav until we were under a hundred meters. There's no way anyone saw us make reentry or land, and this place is covered in triple-canopy jungle, so camouflaging the shuttles once we had them down wasn't exactly hard. Besides, we've been down for over three local days now. If they had any suspicion we'd made it out when Tepes blew, we'd be neck deep in recon flights. Under the circumstances, StateSec would probably even have called in Count Tilly's small craft to look for us, and we've seen zip air traffic."
I'm guessing they had a computer pre-set to kick in the counter-grav 200 meters above the gorund, if they were relying on human reflexes I suspect they'd have had a very hard landing.

It's been three days since they escaped Tepes and no sign of a search. Looks like they bought the "fleeing pinnace" routine.

"We're down and concealed for the moment, and we've got some hardware to work with and enough emergency rations to carry us for up to five months if we're careful. But there are only eighteen of us—twenty, if we count Warner and Nimitz—" he nodded to the Peep officer with a wryly apologetic grin "—and the bad guys have a hell of a lot more firepower than we do. Not to mention an established base, at least a dozen armed pinnaces of their own, and those damned satellites to watch their backs. Any way you look at it, Ma'am, we're pretty damned outnumbered!"
Available resources, nineteen people (and Nimitz!) with five months of food, important since they can't resupply, two assault shuttles and unpowered armor and small arms for a couple of companies. Against 1000-1500 guards with a dozen pinnaces and at least some satellite surveillance. I think we're going to have to talk to some of the other prisoners, restart the whole X network. Honor, you'll be Big X, naturally, Horace is a natural for the Cooler King, or maybe the Scrounger...

"Outnumbered, Alistair?" Honor leaned back, her thin fingers buried in Nimitz's warm, soft fur. She looked more like a gaunt, half-starved wolf than ever, with her shaved hair, half-dead face, and amputated arm, but the feral gleam of a pack leader glittered in her remaining eye. She swept that eye over the men around her, and the right side of her upper lip curled back to bare her teeth.

"You people got us out of Tepes and down to this planet," she told them. "There were two or three thousand people on that ship, with guns and the combinations to our cells, but you still got us out, and we've got a lot more to work with now than you had then, now don't we?"

She held McKeon's eyes until he nodded, then swept her gaze over the others once more, and she could not have defined or described the wild, fierce flow of her emotions if her soul had depended upon it. But it didn't matter. She didn't need to define or describe anything, for she felt the same determination, the same defiance, echoing back at her from her officers. She didn't realize how much those emotions focused on her, had no true concept of the way they viewed her as their living victory totem, and that didn't matter either. What mattered was the moment, the sense of naked swords raised in the dawn and the roar of massed voices ready to defy the gods themselves behind her. And as she heard the inner echo of that defiance, she knew it didn't matter at all that she had less than twenty people and only two sublight shuttles on a planet a light-century and a half from the nearest friendly territory, for it was inconceivable that the Peeps could keep her people here. Not after all they'd already done.

"If anyone's outnumbered here," Lady Dame Honor Harrington told her friends softly, "it's the Peeps."
Well it's a lovely line. Probably doesn't do much to help their immediate situation. And on that note, all done. el fin. The end of this book. See you shortly for the Great Escape II in Echoes of Honor.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:
And those measures were denied him. What he wanted to do was storm into her cell with a neural whip and see how she liked direct stimulation of her pain centers for an hour or two.
Neural whips which stimulate the brain's pain centers directly, presumably with a minimum of obvious physical harm.
Isaac Asimov gets the credit for this idea, unless it's someone before him.
Yes, the honorverse has grenade launchers with full-automatic and burst-fire. I believe we've covered this before.
Physical size suggests that the grenades in question have to be smaller than the ammo in modern grenade launchers, or you'd run through your entire grenade magazine in a moment and there'd be no point. Probably 20mm or smaller- but given how stupidly advanced all sorts of other personal weapons are, it's hardly implausible that they can make a 20mm grenade competitive with today's 40-50mm grenades.
StateSec uses large formations, and they keep loaded/charged weapons lying around in their assault shuttles. This strikes me as a bad idea.
It's a bad idea if anyone can capture one of the shuttles in the bay, which normally can't happen. It's a bad idea if the weapons spontaneously explode, which is rare. It's a very good idea if whoever's commanding the ship wants to drop overwhelming manpower to crush some undesirable meeting or organization in a hurry... which is basically all StateSec ever does.
Ever wondered what happened when a sheet exerting hundreds of Gs of force contacted matter? Generally matter comes off the loser, and since even a pinnace wedge is a hundred klicks long...
Hundreds? Thousands, many thousands. Objects made of metal could probably survive in some semblance of recognizable form under forces of hundreds of g's- they'd at least be torn into recognizable pieces rather than microscopic fragments.

Wedges are a lot stronger than that.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

First chapters of Echoes of Honor. First things first, a timeline note. This story begins explicitly in Febuary of 1912, three months after the destruction of Tepes just over four months since Honor and Co. were initially captured. It'll be a while before we check in on Honor, instead seeing the reactions to her death and the wider war. But at a couple of points the timeline gets snarled up, like saying they've been at war for 8 years as opposed to just shy seven and so on. Further, the book goes back and forth in time showing Honor and crew on Hades, and the war beyond their reach. Does anyone have a preference for taking the book as written or dividing it into Honor and Manticore plots?
"As this office has previously announced," Boardman said flatly, obviously reading from a holo prompter no one else could see, "four T-months ago, on October 23, 1911 P.D., the convicted murderess Honor Stephanie Harrington was captured by the armed forces of the People's Republic. At that time, the Office of Public Information stated that it was the intention of the Committee of Public Safety to proceed with the full rigor of the law, but only within the letter of the law. Despite the unprovoked war of aggression which the elitist, monarchist plutocrats of the Star Kingdom of Manticore and the puppet regimes of the so-called 'Manticoran Alliance' have chosen to wage upon the People's Republic, the People's Republic has scrupulously observed the provisions of the Deneb Accords from the start of hostilities. It is not, after all, the fault of those in uniform when the self-serving masters of a corrupt and oppressive regime order them to fight, even when this means engaging in acts of naked aggression against the citizens and planets of a star nation which wishes only to live in peace and allow other nations to do the same.

"The fact that, at the time of her capture, Harrington was serving as an officer in the navy of the Star Kingdom, however, further complicated an already complex situation. In light of her repeated claim that under the terms of the Deneb Accords her commission in the Manticoran Navy protected her, as a prisoner of war, from the consequences of her earlier crime, the People's government, determined not to act hastily, requested the Supreme Tribunal of the People's Justice to examine the specifics of the case, the conviction, and the Accords in order to ensure that all aspects of the prisoner's legal rights should be scrupulously maintained.
Yeah, Coredila totally cleared that with Haven's "Supreme Tribunal" before announcing it. Also, unprovoked war of aggression by Manticore.

"The People's Republic of Haven cautions the members of the so-called 'Manticoran Alliance' against the abuse or mistreatment of any Republican personnel in retaliation for this execution. The People's Republic reminds its enemies—and the galaxy at large—that this was a single, special case in which a condemned criminal had, for over eleven standard years, evaded the legally mandated punishment for what can only be called an atrocity. Any attempt to mistreat our personnel in response to it will carry the gravest consequences for those responsible when peace is restored to this quadrant. In addition, the People's Republic would point out that any such actions would, almost inevitably, lead to the worsening of conditions for prisoners of war on both sides. Honor Stephanie Harrington was a murderer on a mass scale, and it was for that crime, not any actions she might have performed as a member of the Star Kingdom of Manticore's armed forces since the outbreak of hostilities, that she was executed."
I totally believe you PubIn spokesthing! Their token effort to protect the legions of Havenite prisoners in Manticoran custody.

Four men in the red-and-black uniform of State Security formed a tight knot about a tall, brown-haired woman in a bright orange prison jumpsuit. A fifth man, in the same uniform but with the insignia of a full colonel, followed them in, then turned to one side and stopped. He stood at a sort of parade rest, one foot beside an unobtrusive pedal set into the floor, and watched the prisoner being led across the room.

Her wrists were chained behind her, and more chains weighted her ankles. Her face showed no expression at all, but her eyes clung to the gallows, as if hypnotized by the sight, as her guards urged her forward. Her hobbled steps became slower and more hesitant as they neared the platform stair, and her expressionless mask began to crack. She turned her head, looking at the guards while desperation wavered in her eyes, but no one would look back. The StateSec men's faces were grim and purposeful, and as her resistance grew, they gripped her arms and half-led and half-carried her up the steps.

She began to pant as they forced her to the center of the platform, and she stared up at the rope, then, with a painful effort every viewer could actually feel, forced herself to look away. She closed her eyes, and her lips moved. She might have been praying, but no sound came out, and then she gasped and jerked as a black cloth hood was pulled down over her head. Her panting breath made the thin fabric jump like the breast of a terrified bird, and her wrists began to turn and jerk against their cuffs as the noose was lowered over the hood, snugged down about her throat, and adjusted with the knot behind one ear.

The guards released her and stood back. Her faceless figure swayed as the fully understandable terror of what was about to happen weakened her knees, and then the colonel spoke. His voice was harsh and gruff, yet there was an edge of compassion in it, like the tone of a man who dislikes what duty requires of him.

"Honor Stephanie Harrington, you have been convicted of the high crime against the People of premeditated murder. The sentence of the court is death, to be carried out this day. Do you wish to say anything at this time?"

The prisoner shook her head convulsively, chest leaping as she hyperventilated in terror, and the colonel nodded silently. He didn't speak again. He only reached out his foot and stepped firmly on the floor pedal with a heavy thrust of merciful quickness.

The sound as the trapdoor opened was a loud, shocking thunk! and the grisly sound as the prisoner's weight hit the end of the rope was horribly clear. There was a short, explosive spit of air—a last, agonized gasp for breath, cut off in the instant of its birth—and then the brown-haired woman jerked once, hugely and convulsively, as the rope snapped her neck.
Ayup. Remember when the Sillies faked execution footage for Warnecke because they were pretty sure he was dead anyways, and what jackasses they looked like when Warnecke turned up alive and well and running piracy missions out of Sidemore? Well someone saw that in Caslet's report and said "great idea!"

Hats and caps were removed throughout the crowds of mourners, sometimes awkwardly, with an almost embarrassed air, as the cortege passed, and Allen Summervale, Duke of Cromarty and Prime Minister of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, stood beside Queen Elizabeth III on the steps of the Royal Cathedral and watched the slow-moving column approach. Very few of those watching the wheeled conveyance pass by had known what a "caisson" was before the newsies covering the funeral told them. Even fewer had known that such vehicles had once been used to tow artillery back on Old Earth—Cromarty had known only because one of his boyhood friends was a military history buff—or the significance they held for military funerals. But every one of those spectators knew the coffin the caisson bore was empty. That the body of the woman whose funeral they had come to share would never be returned to the soil of her native kingdom for burial. But that was not because she had been vaporized in the fury of naval combat or left to drift, forever lost in space, like so many of Manticore's sons and daughters, and despite the solemnity, and the quiet, and the grief flowing on the cold wind, Cromarty felt the anger and the fierce, steady power of the mourner's fury pulsing in time with the drum.

A sound like ripping cloth and distant thunder grumbled down from the heavens, and eyes rose from the procession as five Javelin advanced trainers from Kreskin Field at Saganami Island swept overhead. Bold, white contrails followed them across the autumn-washed blue sky, and then one of them pulled up, climbing away from the others, vanishing into the brilliant sun like a fleeing spirit, in the ancient "missing man" formation pilots had used for over two thousand years to mark the passing of one of their own.

The other four planes crossed directly over the cortege. Then they, too, disappeared, and Cromarty drew a deep breath and suppressed the urge to look over his shoulder. It wasn't really necessary, for he knew what he would see. The leaders of every political party, Lords and Commons alike, stood behind him and his monarch and her family, representing the solidarity of the entire Star Kingdom in this moment of loss and outrage.
Funeral procession as Honoir's empty casket is laid to rest with monarchs and war heroes. Even her many political enemies turned up, albeit mostly because it would look crass not to show.

The Star Kingdom's constitution specifically prohibited the establishment of an official state religion, but the House of Winton had been Second Reformation Roman Catholics for the last four centuries. King Michael had begun the construction of the cathedral which now bore his own name out of the royal family's private fortune in 65 After Landing—1528 Post Diaspora, by the reckoning of humanity at large—and every member of the royal family had been buried there since. The Star Kingdom's last state burial in King Michael's had been thirty-nine T-years before, after the death of King Roger III. Only eleven people from outside the royal house had ever been "interred" there, and of that eleven, three of the crypts were empty.

As the twelfth non-Winton crypt would be, Cromarty thought grimly, for he doubted, somehow, that Honor Harrington's body would ever be recovered, even after the People's Republic's defeat. But she would be in fitting company even then, he told himself, for the empty crypt which would be hers lay between the equally empty crypts of Edward Saganami and Ellen D'Orville.
Honor's burial place. Everyone's going to be a bit embarrassed over all this fuss when Honor comes back. Second Reformation.

The drummer followed, still tapping out her slow, grieving tempo, until her heel touched the very threshold of the Cathedral. Then the drumbeats stopped, in the instant that her foot came down, and the rich, weeping music of Salvatore Hammerwell's "Lament for Beauty Lost" welled from the speakers in its stead.
I just like the idea of Manticore having art and music all it's own and not just millennia old Earth references.

In what was very possibly a first, the Protectorate of Grayson and the Star Kingdom of Manticore had orchestrated simultaneous state funerals for the same person. The concept of simultaneity might strike some as a bit pointless for planets thirty light-years apart, but Queen Elizabeth and Protector Benjamin had been adamant. And the fact that there was no body had actually simplified matters, for there had been no point in arguing over which of Honor Harrington's home worlds she would be buried upon.

"I was surprised the Protector let us borrow the Harrington Sword for our funeral," Cromarty said. "Grateful, of course, but surprised."

"It wasn't really his decision," Alexander pointed out. As Cromarty's political executive officer, he had been responsible for coordinating with Grayson through the Protector's ambassador to Manticore, and he was much more conversant with the details than Cromarty had had time enough to make himself. "The sword belongs to Harrington Steading and Steadholder Harrington, which meant the decision was Lord Clinkscales', not the Protector's. Not that Clinkscales would have argued with Benjamin—especially with her parents signing off on the request. Besides, they would've had to use two swords if they'd kept hers." Cromarty raised an eyebrow, and Alexander shrugged. "She was Benjamin's Champion, as well, Allen. That made their Sword of State 'hers,' as well."
Simultaneous state funerals on Grayson and Manticore. Clinkscales let the Manties borrow the Harrington, formerly Burdette, family sword.

"What have you heard from Hamish about his take on the Graysons' mood? I don't mind telling you that their ambassador scared the hell out of me when he delivered their official condolences, and the Protector's personal message to the Queen could've been processed for laser heads. I was distinctly glad that I wasn't a Peep after I viewed it!"

"I'm not surprised a bit." Alexander glanced around again, reassuring himself that no one was in a position to overhear, then looked at Cromarty. "That bastard Boardman played his 'no retaliation' card too damned well for my taste," he growled with profound disgust. "Even the neutrals who are usually most revolted by the Peeps' actions expect us, as the 'good guys,' to refrain from any kind of reprisals. But from what Hamish says, the entire Grayson Space Navy is all set to provide as much grist for the Peep propaganda mill as Ransom and her bunch could possibly hope for."

"Hamish thinks they'd actually abuse prisoners of war?" Cromarty sounded genuinely shocked, despite his own earlier words, for such behavior would be completely at odds with Grayson's normal codes of conduct.

"No, he doesn't expect them to 'abuse' their prisoners," Alexander said grimly. "He's afraid they'll simply refuse to take any after this."
Somehow I doubt Madgeburg Mercy is how Honor would prefer to be remembered if she died.

"Of course it will. Hell, Allen, half the newsies in the Solarian League are already mouthpieces for the Peeps! Pierre's official line on domestic policy is much more palatable to the Solly establishment than a monarchy is. Never mind that we've got a participating democracy, as well, and the Peeps don't. Or that the official Peep line bears about as much resemblance to reality as I do to an HD heart-throb! They're a 'republic,' and we're a 'kingdom,' and any good oatmeal-brained Solly ideologue knows 'republics' are good guys and 'kingdoms' are bad guys! Besides, INS and Reuters funnel Peep propaganda straight onto the airwaves completely uncut."
Something of how the war plays in the Solarian League, especially with Grayson screaming for blood.

Neither INS nor Reuters ever called the Peeps on their censorship . . . or, for that matter, on obviously staged "news events." But that was because they'd seen what happened when United Faxes Intragalactic insisted on noting that reports from the People's Republic were routinely censored. Eleven UFI staffers had been arrested for "espionage against the People," deported, and permanently barred from ever again entering Havenite space, and all of their reporters had been expelled from the core worlds of the Republic. Now they had to make do with secondary feeds and independent stringers' reports relayed through their remaining offices in the Havenite hinterland, and everyone knew the real reason for that. But no one had dared report it lest they find themselves equally excluded from one of the galaxy's hottest news zones.
Further complications in the PR war, the Peeps can get away with bully tactics because whatever news agencies stand up to them lose access in a big way.

"I got the latest results this morning, Allen. Two more Solarian League member governments have announced their opposition to the embargo and called for a vote to consider its suspension, and according to UFI's latest numbers, we've lost another point and a quarter in the public opinion polls, as well. And the longer the Peeps go on hammering away at their lies and no one calls them on it, the worse it's going to get. Hell, Allen! The truth tends to be awkward, messy, and complicated, but a well-orchestrated lie is almost always more consistent—or coherent, at least—and a hell of a lot 'simpler,' and Cordelia Ransom knows it. Her Public Information stooges work from a script that's had all its rough edges filed away so completely it doesn't bear much relationship to reality, but it sure as hell reads well, especially for people who've never found themselves on the Peeps' list of intended victims. And in a crazy sort of way, the fact that we keep winning battles only makes it even more acceptable to the Sollies. It's almost as if every battle we win somehow turns the Peeps more and more into the 'underdogs,' for God's sake!"
So, not a lot of Sollie outrage then, in fact Manticore is losing ground with the average Sollie on the street.

Oh, the slippage was minor so far, but the war had raged for eight T-years. Public support had been high when it began, and it was still holding firm at well about seventy percent—so far. Yet even though the Royal Manticoran Navy and its allies had won virtually every important battle, there was no sign of an end in sight, and the Star Kingdom's much lower absolute casualty figures were far higher than the Peeps' relative to its total population, while the strain of the conflict was beginning to slow even an economy as powerful and diversified as Manticore's. There was still optimism and a hard core of determination, but neither optimism nor determination were as powerful as they had been.
The war is also losing ground with the Manticoran public, after several long years of the war taking place far, far away from their own backyards with no end in sight.

Younger had wanted to seize the opportunity to attack Manty morale by having their computer-generated Harrington blubber, beg for mercy, and fight her executioners madly as she was dragged to the scaffold, but Boardman had held out against her arguments. They had plenty of file imagery of other executions to use as a basis, and they'd had stacks of HD chips of Harrington from the imagery Cordelia Ransom had shipped home to Haven before her unfortunate departure—in every sense of the word—for the Cerberus System. The techs had been confident that they could generate a virtual Harrington which would do anything Younger wanted and defy detection as a fake—after all, they'd produced enough "corrected" imagery over the last T-century—yet Boardman had been less certain. The Solarian news services had proven themselves too credulous to run checks on those corrections, but the Manties' were much more skeptical. And their computer capability was better across the board than the People's Republic's, so if they saw any reason to subject the imagery to intensive analysis, they were all too likely to realize it was a fraud. But by letting her die with dignity—with just enough physical evidence of terror to undermine her reputation as some sort of fearless superhero—Boardman had executed a much subtler attack on Manty morale . . . and given it that ring of reality which should preclude any analysis.
The decision not to have sim-Honor cry and beg, as Younger and Boardman compete to try and fill Ransom's shoes. Spoiler: they both fail, and PubIn no longer gets a seat at the triumvirate table.

The Manticoran Alliance's momentum had slowed . . . possibly even faltered, if that wasn't too strong a verb. It was as if they'd gathered all their resources for the final lunge at Trevor's Star but now, having taken that vitally important system away from the Republic, they'd shot their bolt. Before her recall to Haven, she had expected Admiral White Haven to keep right on coming and cut the Barnett System off at the ankles, but he hadn't. Indeed, current reports from the Naval Intelligence Section of StateSec had him still in Yeltsin trying to organize a brand-new fleet out of whatever odds and ends the Star Kingdom's allies could contribute. And given all the other reports she now had access to, she could see why.
The wider war. Barnett still stands, and Haven has at least heard of the forming Eighth Fleet.

Under the old regime, Bukato would have been the People's Navy's chief of naval operations, but the CNO slot had been eradicated along with the other "elitist" trappings of the Legislaturalists. Under the New Order, he was simply Citizen Admiral Bukato, who happened to have all the duties and very few of the perks Chief of Naval Operations Bukato would have had.
So it's not just the Captain's Steward position that was eliminated as elitest.

"but for the moment, it's not going to help them a whole hell of a lot. They still have to cover the same defensive volume with the same number of available warships. Maybe even more importantly, they have to make certain they hold Trevor's Star after all the time and trouble they spent taking it in the first place. From my own reading of the intelligence reports, that's the real reason they sent White Haven off to organize an entirely new fleet at Yeltsin. They're keeping almost all of his old fleet right there at Trevor's Star to protect it."

"You're right," McQueen agreed. "For now, at least, it is distracting them from more offensive activities. But it's a dynamic situation, not a static one. By holding the system, they remove the threat of an invasion of the Manties' home system down the Junction. And that means they can start standing down those damned forts they built to cover the central terminus, which is going to free up one hell of a lot of trained manpower."
Manticore is very starved for manpower and hulls at the moment, having to picket every system they've taken. Trevor's Star eases things up, a lot, because they can move convoys close to the front through the wormhole, and they're started standing down the Junction Forts, which will eventually free up enough trained spacers to man several squadrons of the wall. But for the moment, they're stretched pretty thin, hence building a fleet mostly from the allies with a core of Manty ships and crews.

"Of course, they can still build ships faster than we can. But we still have a lot more building slips than they do and our construction rates are going up. It may take us longer to build a given ship than it takes them, but as long as we can work on building more of them at the same time we've got a shot at matching their construction rate in total numbers of hulls. Add that to the fact that we can crew as many ships as we can build, whereas they have a hell of a lot smaller population base, and the 'big battalions' are still on our side . . . for now. But that infusion of additional crewmen from the forts is going to fuel one hell of a growth spurt in their front-line strength a year or so down the line. What we have to do is find a way to use the distraction aspect of their commitment at Trevor's Star against them before they can use the benefits of its possession against us."
Relative shipbuilding, McQueen gets an idea.

"One of the things I've just been reading over was the availability numbers on our battleships." Bukato grimaced before he could stop himself, and she chuckled. "I know—I know! Every single time someone's come up with a brilliant idea about how to use them, we've ended up with less battleships when the wreckage cooled. And, frankly, we lost an awful lot of them in the run up to Trevor's Star simply because we had no choice but to commit them to defensive actions against dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts. But I was surprised to see how many we have left. If we strip the eastern sectors down to bedrock, we could assemble quite a fleet of them to support a core of real ships of the wall."
Good luck with that. Still with BB squadrons supporting a solid core of wallers they might have a serious offensive force for a counterattack.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
DarkArk
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2010-10-08 10:38am
Location: Seattle

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by DarkArk »

Further, the book goes back and forth in time showing Honor and crew on Hades, and the war beyond their reach. Does anyone have a preference for taking the book as written or dividing it into Honor and Manticore plots?
Taking it as written would be fine with me.

On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, exactly how many defectors has Haven had throughout the course of the war? They probably don't think of Harkness as a prisoner to begin with, since he has already pretty clearly burned his bridges with Manticore by spilling tech secrets and posing for all those propaganda videos. What is he going to do, sneak out, free the prisoners, and blow up the ship :lol: ?

Statesec in particular doesn't seem to understand the importance of IT, given everything else that's stated about them and seems to rely a lot on real agents. Which allowed LePic and Pritchart to escape notice. This seems like a glaring hole in their thinking, considering the consequences this costs them in the end. I wonder if this is because of the culling Insec had, and then fleshing out the ranks as quickly as humanly possible. It would help explain why Statesec is so damn incompetent a lot of the time.

We never do get a reason for why Ransom wants to admit that Hades exists, do we? Seems to me to be something more useful as a rumor than a known fact.

Also why did they spend so much building orbital defenses for Hades that even a simple lone destroyer could take out given enough time? It seems its primary defense would be secrecy, which Ransom just decided to blow.
Both Shannon Foraker and Lester Tourville see the assault shuttles dropping to Hades when Camp Charon can't. But neither of them is in a sharing mood.
This I had somewhat of a hard time believing when I first read it, and even knowing what I know now it still seems somewhat unbelievable that Tourville would ignore this. Unless he really wants Haven to lose the war at this point.
Remember when the Sillies faked execution footage for Warnecke because they were pretty sure he was dead anyways, and what jackasses they looked like when Warnecke turned up alive and well and running piracy missions out of Sidemore?
Did Haven really have an option at this point though? If they were running with Ransom's story then this seems the logical conclusion to come too. And they were quite sure she was dead, because no one told them otherwise, so admitting she took a BC with her in an escape attempt seems like a really bad idea.
Reuters
I like the idea that some institutions (or their brand), would survive 2,000 years into the future. Makes me wonder if some places like Southern California are still known for its entertainment industry.
Manticore is very starved for manpower and hulls at the moment
Has it ever been confirmed that Manticore only uses volunteers for the entirety of the war? I think it was, which would help explain some of their manpower shortages.

This brings up an interesting point to me though, which is that wars that are fought almost exclusively with ships (space or wet) shouldn't really require that much in the way of manpower. Even all of Manticore's SDs would only have, what, around 1.5 million people on them? And that's before automation reduces crew sizes. This out of a population of 3 billion? Considering prolong and gender equality with regards to military service I have a hard time believing that their military is having that big of a crunch on their manpower.

I know the Army occupations are eating up a lot of people, but that really shouldn't be such a priority that Manticore has to scramble to supply the Navy with enough bodies.

Which brings up a couple of possibilities. One is that the war is not that large a part of Manticore's civilian's lives (which we see very little of), and that most of it is spectacle for HD consumption. There isn't a huge drive to enlist, since the navy seems to be winning the war anyway, and Manticore won't draft people no matter what. Another is that Manticore runs into the same problem that Haven does, which is a lack of skilled recruits.

One possible answer which comes up later in the series is that Manticore, for all of its personnel needs, won't significantly expand its training facilities. We know later that Saganami island is the only place you can become a Manticoran officer; barring OCS which is specifically only available to already serving enlisted personnel. So they don't want to try and sacrifice the quality of their existing crew, even if they run into the situation of having more hulls than they have trained people.
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Actually a manportable burst/automatic fire capable 40mm grenade launcher (stationary/vehicle mounted we've had for half a century or more) is entirely possible with modern day tech. The magazine capacity isn't going to anything to write home about, but if you're willing to accept a weight somewhat in excess of a GPMG and a magazine capacity (and correlated lack of endurance on automatic fire) comparable to an assault rifle (30 rounds or so)-and, of course, a bulky as hell physical size-it's entirely doable. Whether it's worthwhile is another matter.

I'm pretty certain the first series use of a plasma rifle was in OBS?

Also, the Space Shuttles made completely unpowered landings all the way to touchdown so I don't think relying on human reflexes to bring up the countergrav in time is necessarily all that problematic. Yes, they had prepared airstrips to land on, but they had to do it on aerodynamic lift alone.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11872
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

Another thought; are many Manticorans officers still serving the Grayson Navy at that point? It seemed to be suggested in the book where Honor was serving in them that a lot their officer corp were loaner manticorans given big promotions to lure them into the Grayson service.

If Manticore is suffering short falls did they try and recall these officers? What would that do to their allies?
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

I don't think the series mentions it one way or the other, but as at this point the RMN is under reasonably competent management I doubt they'd do so-the Grayson Navy is technologically on the same level as the RMN (and occasionally better designed) and while the Grayson crews are likely not yet as good as the Manticorans, the Manty loaners are likely to give them a lot more available hulls with adequate crews than using them to flesh out the RMN itself would. Yes, Manticore is running short of crewers, but if memory serves, they are 'also' maxed out on construction.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Esquire »

I think the RMN manpower problems are among the enlisted ranks, rather than officers. As we just saw with Statesec's techno-illiteracy problem, you need a certain degree of advanced knowledge to be an effective spacer, and lots of Manticore's population of people with those skills has to be used to run their merchant fleet, which is what pays for all those warships in the first place. Vicious circles ensue if they try and conscript lots of merchant spacers, while it seems like every other upper-class individual goes through Saganami Island.

Compare and contrast with the... what was it? Oh, right; the GLORIOUS KERBAL GRAYSONS, who have a ridiculous amount of trained spacers for their size, but almost no experienced officer corps. These problems largely cancel each other out, as we see, but it's still four planets, and the less important allies, against hundreds.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

DarkArk wrote: We never do get a reason for why Ransom wants to admit that Hades exists, do we? Seems to me to be something more useful as a rumor than a known fact.
You're working on the assumption that Ransom would actually do the sane thing. Remember that woman actually seems to believe her own propaganda.
Also why did they spend so much building orbital defenses for Hades that even a simple lone destroyer could take out given enough time? It seems its primary defense would be secrecy, which Ransom just decided to blow.
Um-that was elaborated on in the books-because it was done by InSec goons who didn't know beans about Navy matters. PRN personell repeatedly comment on how those defenses would be largely useless?
Both Shannon Foraker and Lester Tourville see the assault shuttles dropping to Hades when Camp Charon can't. But neither of them is in a sharing mood.
This I had somewhat of a hard time believing when I first read it, and even knowing what I know now it still seems somewhat unbelievable that Tourville would ignore this. Unless he really wants Haven to lose the war at this point.
Then I suggest you reread the book. Foraker was a millimeter away from open rebellion by that time (if that much) and while Tourville was no traitor, he also didn't particularly like the current regime much. And how in Valen's name does letting Honor and her Merry Men live ensure that Haven is going to lose the war? Espacially as other than a propaganda piece, Honor and hers do jack all for the war effort?
Had they all died in the escape attempt, Buttercup would still have happened. The PRN would still have gotten their asses handed to them at Second Manticore. They would still have been mauled at Second Hancock. Indeed, the latter two happened when everybody still believe Honor was dead, and she didn't resume active duty until after the ceasefire. How, exactly, does Tourville letting Honor and a handful of fellow prisoners survive to land on a prison planet they can't realistically escape from (or even live on) equal him wanting Haven to lose the war?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
DarkArk
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2010-10-08 10:38am
Location: Seattle

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by DarkArk »

while Tourville was no traitor
Except in this case that is quite literally what both of them are doing. He's letting the enemy which just blew up a BC get away and land on Hades. It's also in contradiction where Tourville goes out of his way to try to come to the aid of Tepes. Caslet at least has an actual arc surrounding this stuff. Here though, nope Tourville just ignores our heroine.

It's what I mean by "wanting to lose the war," because the fact of the matter is the Navy and Statesec are on the same side, as much as they might hate each other. Manticore will happily blow both of them away. He's acting directly against the interests of his nation. I was using it as a phrase rather than a concrete statement, if that clarifies things.
How, exactly, does Tourville letting Honor and a handful of fellow prisoners survive to land on a prison planet they can't realistically escape from (or even live on) equal him wanting Haven to lose the war?
It's interesting you bring this up, since her breakout from Hell is probably the greatest victory she has up until the Battle of Manticore. First off she frees half a million prisoners, including people who do a lot of damage to Haven later on. Parnell manages to dash Haven's reputation advantage in the League. Her showing up alive after everyone thinks she's dead also does that, while also providing a need morale boost right after Icarus has done it damage. She manages to achieve political stability on San Martin by freeing Ramirez. Not to mention capturing one task force, and destroying another one. All while also freeing up a bunch of capable talent that would form the core of the Protector's own, which would go on to ironically beat Tourville's ass later on at Marsh.

None of which would have happened had Tourville just done his damn job.
User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Esquire »

I take issue with the claim that Statesec and the People's Navy were on the same side. Statesec certainly didn't see it that way, and went out of their way to make sure the Navy didn't either.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:First chapters of Echoes of Honor. First things first, a timeline note. This story begins explicitly in Febuary of 1912, three months after the destruction of Tepes just over four months since Honor and Co. were initially captured. It'll be a while before we check in on Honor, instead seeing the reactions to her death and the wider war. But at a couple of points the timeline gets snarled up, like saying they've been at war for 8 years as opposed to just shy seven and so on. Further, the book goes back and forth in time showing Honor and crew on Hades, and the war beyond their reach. Does anyone have a preference for taking the book as written or dividing it into Honor and Manticore plots?
I'd rather subdivide, mostly because it'll help preserve some unity in the conversation we have about the book; we'll be talking about Ghost Rider and the war effort for a few weeks, then talking about the implications of events on Hades for Honorverse ground combat, StateSec organization, and naval policy.
Ayup. Remember when the Sillies faked execution footage for Warnecke because they were pretty sure he was dead anyways, and what jackasses they looked like when Warnecke turned up alive and well and running piracy missions out of Sidemore? Well someone saw that in Caslet's report and said "great idea!"
In this case they're even more sure she's dead- but yeah, oopsie.

Also, ability to CGI up an entire execution scene down to fairly realistic reactions by "Honor," but hell we could already do that in real life if we wanted to plunk down a few tens of millions tops.
Honor's burial place. Everyone's going to be a bit embarrassed over all this fuss when Honor comes back.
You think they're embarrassed, how is she going to feel? :D

Seriously, watching footage of your own state funeral would be waaay creepier than normal.
Somehow I doubt Madgeburg Mercy is how Honor would prefer to be remembered if she died.
True. On the other hand it's kind of... predictable?
Something of how the war plays in the Solarian League, especially with Grayson screaming for blood.
That actually fits better with the corrupt League portrayed later than with the... supposed-to-be-sorta democratic and competent League arguably implied by In Enemy Hands. If the League news agencies are already used to mindlessly repeating press releases from their own government (i.e. the Office of Frontier Security), it helps explain why they do basically no investigative journalism when it comes to the Manticore-Haven War.
The war is also losing ground with the Manticoran public, after several long years of the war taking place far, far away from their own backyards with no end in sight.
Also, the fact that they're winning so consistently may be a problem in its own right- the Manticoran public may be beginning to think that if Haven would agree to a cease-fire they'd never pose a real threat again.

That attitude may help explain why High Ridge is able to get away with his cease-fire in Ashes of Victory; the Manticoran public is already starting to think of the Havenite fleet as a bad joke, a target for beatings.
The Manticoran Alliance's momentum had slowed . . . possibly even faltered, if that wasn't too strong a verb. It was as if they'd gathered all their resources for the final lunge at Trevor's Star but now, having taken that vitally important system away from the Republic, they'd shot their bolt. Before her recall to Haven, she had expected Admiral White Haven to keep right on coming and cut the Barnett System off at the ankles, but he hadn't. Indeed, current reports from the Naval Intelligence Section of StateSec had him still in Yeltsin trying to organize a brand-new fleet out of whatever odds and ends the Star Kingdom's allies could contribute. And given all the other reports she now had access to, she could see why.
The wider war. Barnett still stands, and Haven has at least heard of the forming Eighth Fleet.
Also, McQueen is not taking the GLORIOUS KERBAL GRAYSON contribution to the MIGHTY EIGHTH seriously.
Good luck with that. Still with BB squadrons supporting a solid core of wallers they might have a serious offensive force for a counterattack.
Yes. My impression is, also, that Havenite battleships are strong enough to stand in the wall in missile combat, as long as they have a serious numerical advantage. It's beam range where they fail; their armor scheme is too light to provide protection against dreadnought-sized grasers, and Havenite ships in particular seem to be very light on beam weapons in general.
DarkArk wrote:
Further, the book goes back and forth in time showing Honor and crew on Hades, and the war beyond their reach. Does anyone have a preference for taking the book as written or dividing it into Honor and Manticore plots?
On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, exactly how many defectors has Haven had throughout the course of the war? They probably don't think of Harkness as a prisoner to begin with, since he has already pretty clearly burned his bridges with Manticore by spilling tech secrets and posing for all those propaganda videos. What is he going to do, sneak out, free the prisoners, and blow up the ship :lol: ?
Again, the KGB wouldn't have screwed this up, despite being just as "humint-"oriented as StateSec. It's not that defectors aren't valuable; it's that anyone who will betray their country once is a high risk for doing it twice. Plus, double agents establishing themselves by fake-defecting is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Statesec in particular doesn't seem to understand the importance of IT, given everything else that's stated about them and seems to rely a lot on real agents. Which allowed LePic and Pritchart to escape notice. This seems like a glaring hole in their thinking, considering the consequences this costs them in the end. I wonder if this is because of the culling Insec had, and then fleshing out the ranks as quickly as humanly possible. It would help explain why Statesec is so damn incompetent a lot of the time.
That's very possible- they'd lose a lot of technical experience if they had to shoot half of InSec including most of the relatively educated people loyal to the old regime, and replace them with radicals off the streets drawn from the Dolist population.

Alternatively, a lot of the electronic monitoring may have been the responsibility of one of the many other Havenite security organs under the Legislaturalists, just like the medicalization of dissent was. And that agency may not have fared well as (former InSec) Saint-Just consolidated all security forces into StateSec.
We never do get a reason for why Ransom wants to admit that Hades exists, do we? Seems to me to be something more useful as a rumor than a known fact.
It may be an irrational act. Or Ransom may honestly think that openly terrorizing the public by making it explicit that they have an inescapable prison planet is a good idea. We know she was a rather violent terrorist prior to the Harris assassination. Bloody-mindedness is part of the mental complex, I guess.
Also why did they spend so much building orbital defenses for Hades that even a simple lone destroyer could take out given enough time? It seems its primary defense would be secrecy, which Ransom just decided to blow.
Of course, Ransom may view that as StateSec's problem, not hers. She's already pissed off at Pierre and Saint-Just for having brought McQueen into the inner circle, after all.

As to the defenses- well, for one, the defenses' vulnerability seems to be a thing experienced naval officers know but random people do not know. InSec and StateSec may not have consulted anyone truly good at fortifying planets.

Another possibility is that the defenses are actually designed to engage ships that physically try to fly into the defenses- to ensure that any ship approaching Hades peacefully is "under the guns" of Camp Charon and can be destroyed if they try anything funny.
Both Shannon Foraker and Lester Tourville see the assault shuttles dropping to Hades when Camp Charon can't. But neither of them is in a sharing mood.
This I had somewhat of a hard time believing when I first read it, and even knowing what I know now it still seems somewhat unbelievable that Tourville would ignore this. Unless he really wants Haven to lose the war at this point.
He may not believe Honor can actually manage an escape from Hades even if she did escape (remember, he doesn't know all the loopholes and vulnerabilities in Tresca's security arrangements on the planet).

Also, under the circumstances he may have lost absolutely all desire to collaborate with StateSec for any reason whatsoever- wasn't he concerned that Ransom or StateSec might have him shot on account of he now knows the location of Hades?
Manticore is very starved for manpower and hulls at the moment
Has it ever been confirmed that Manticore only uses volunteers for the entirety of the war? I think it was, which would help explain some of their manpower shortages.

This brings up an interesting point to me though, which is that wars that are fought almost exclusively with ships (space or wet) shouldn't really require that much in the way of manpower. Even all of Manticore's SDs would only have, what, around 1.5 million people on them? And that's before automation reduces crew sizes. This out of a population of 3 billion? Considering prolong and gender equality with regards to military service I have a hard time believing that their military is having that big of a crunch on their manpower.
The main problem I perceive is that it takes highly trained manpower to staff an RMN warship to the standard of personnel quality they need to maintain their system. Haven may be able to produce a naval rating from someone with (our idea of) a high school level education in, say, six months. Manticore can't, because they need their average crewman to be a skilled computer programmer, reactor engineer, or whatever.

So training adequate manpower takes a lot of time and in many cases has to be done by recruiting people who already have the relevant experience from the merchant marine. They can't just draft random people, unless they accept things like "the crews can't maintain their own equipment, they have to pull it and send it to a depot with people who know how to fix it."
One possible answer which comes up later in the series is that Manticore, for all of its personnel needs, won't significantly expand its training facilities. We know later that Saganami island is the only place you can become a Manticoran officer; barring OCS which is specifically only available to already serving enlisted personnel. So they don't want to try and sacrifice the quality of their existing crew, even if they run into the situation of having more hulls than they have trained people.
Since all their weapon systems and even basic stuff like shipboard engines is designed on the assumption that they will have highly trained crewmen available, they may not have a choice. Indeed, they find it easier to program machines that can do basic "thumb-fingered idiot" jobs than to draft people, it seems.
Batman wrote:Actually a manportable burst/automatic fire capable 40mm grenade launcher (stationary/vehicle mounted we've had for half a century or more) is entirely possible with modern day tech. The magazine capacity isn't going to anything to write home about, but if you're willing to accept a weight somewhat in excess of a GPMG and a magazine capacity (and correlated lack of endurance on automatic fire) comparable to an assault rifle (30 rounds or so)-and, of course, a bulky as hell physical size-it's entirely doable. Whether it's worthwhile is another matter.
The basic problem is that thirty 40mm grenade rounds is just... too big and heavy. The physical bulk of individual grenade rounds is such that it becomes impractical to carry a useful ammo loadout.
DarkArk wrote:
while Tourville was no traitor
Except in this case that is quite literally what both of them are doing. He's letting the enemy which just blew up a BC get away and land on Hades. It's also in contradiction where Tourville goes out of his way to try to come to the aid of Tepes. Caslet at least has an actual arc surrounding this stuff. Here though, nope Tourville just ignores our heroine.
At this point, Tourville might reasonably consider Ransom and StateSec to be just as much "the enemy" as the Manties are. God knows Ransom and StateSec feel that way about the Navy!
It's what I mean by "wanting to lose the war," because the fact of the matter is the Navy and Statesec are on the same side, as much as they might hate each other. Manticore will happily blow both of them away. He's acting directly against the interests of his nation. I was using it as a phrase rather than a concrete statement, if that clarifies things.
I suspect Tourville's decision was informed by the idea that there was no realistic way Honor could escape the prison planet, even if she was still alive. So telling Tresca to go hunting for her wasn't going to make much practical difference- and it would involve actively collaborating with StateSec in the hunting and killing of a woman he admires and who they are unjustly persecuting due to Ransom's loony vendetta.

So, an essentially irrational/inappropriate act for an emotionless man seeking to optimize the interests of his nation... but a very human one.
It's interesting you bring this up, since her breakout from Hell is probably the greatest victory she has up until the Battle of Manticore. First off she frees half a million prisoners, including people who do a lot of damage to Haven later on. Parnell manages to dash Haven's reputation advantage in the League. Her showing up alive after everyone thinks she's dead also does that, while also providing a need morale boost right after Icarus has done it damage. She manages to achieve political stability on San Martin by freeing Ramirez. Not to mention capturing one task force, and destroying another one. All while also freeing up a bunch of capable talent that would form the core of the Protector's own, which would go on to ironically beat Tourville's ass later on at Marsh.

None of which would have happened had Tourville just done his damn job.
True. On the other hand, the escape from Hades should not have been possible; had Tresca's security organization been set up sensibly there wouldn't have been a problem. Tourville's failure to warn Tresca was a mistake, but it was only predictably going to lead to disaster if you assume other facts Tourville did not then know.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

Simon_Jester wrote:True. On the other hand, the escape from Hades should not have been possible; had Tresca's security organization been set up sensibly there wouldn't have been a problem. Tourville's failure to warn Tresca was a mistake, but it was only predictably going to lead to disaster if you assume other facts Tourville did not then know.
I'm not even willing to go that far, really. Tresca's policies were full of holes and immorality, yes, but barring a couple of assault shuttles magically appearing in the Hades outback with comm gear 10-20 years more recent than his gear, full of ship-to-ship weaponry and enough small arms to arm a camp full of people, Camp Charon is unlikely to have ever had a real problem. The "problems" with his security policy only mattered because there was a (for a prison) complete OCP.

How many modern prisons could deal effectively with a SWAT team being teleported into their choice of cell block with weapons enough to arm 25-50 prisoners, radios that can surveil prison communication for months beforehand, and some small C4 charges to bust locks/hinges? I'm willing to guess not many, but that doesn't mean our prisons have security problems. It means that's not what they're designed to handle.
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Batman wrote: Actually a manportable burst/automatic fire capable 40mm grenade launcher (stationary/vehicle mounted we've had for half a century or more) is entirely possible with modern day tech. The magazine capacity isn't going to anything to write home about, but if you're willing to accept a weight somewhat in excess of a GPMG and a magazine capacity (and correlated lack of endurance on automatic fire) comparable to an assault rifle (30 rounds or so)-and, of course, a bulky as hell physical size-it's entirely doable. Whether it's worthwhile is another matter.
The basic problem is that thirty 40mm grenade rounds is just... too big and heavy. The physical bulk of individual grenade rounds is such that it becomes impractical to carry a useful ammo loadout.
Not all that heavy actually. A 40x46mm grenade weighs in at all of 200-230 grams or so, so 30 of them would be about 7 kilos. Call it 10 kilos for the weapon and you're about half again the weight of a loaded M60. Heavy? Hell yes. Bulky? You bet. But definitely portable and operable by a single person. Of course it depends how you define a useful ammo loadout because yeah, you're not going to be able to carry much in the way of replacement magazines. But then neither are the people who carry GPMGs.

And sorry, but calling Tourville a traitor for letting Honor live resulting in a sequence of events that only a psychic could have foreseen is just petty. Yes, he let her live...to land on a planet with a massive StateSec presence (well massive compared to her forces anyway), some serious (if suboptimal) orbital defenses, and no access to FTL capable transportation (not to mention living off the land being a nonoption though Tourville likely didn't know that).

Foraker I think at that point was furious enough she would've let them get away with it even if she had known the outcome, but for all Tourville knew he was merely letting Honor and co live to be stranded on Hades for the rest of their lives.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Terralthra wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:True. On the other hand, the escape from Hades should not have been possible; had Tresca's security organization been set up sensibly there wouldn't have been a problem. Tourville's failure to warn Tresca was a mistake, but it was only predictably going to lead to disaster if you assume other facts Tourville did not then know.
I'm not even willing to go that far, really. Tresca's policies were full of holes and immorality, yes, but barring a couple of assault shuttles magically appearing in the Hades outback with comm gear 10-20 years more recent than his gear, full of ship-to-ship weaponry and enough small arms to arm a camp full of people, Camp Charon is unlikely to have ever had a real problem. The "problems" with his security policy only mattered because there was a (for a prison) complete OCP.

How many modern prisons could deal effectively with a SWAT team being teleported into their choice of cell block with weapons enough to arm 25-50 prisoners, radios that can surveil prison communication for months beforehand, and some small C4 charges to bust locks/hinges? I'm willing to guess not many, but that doesn't mean our prisons have security problems. It means that's not what they're designed to handle.
Hm. I suppose the main thing he really screwed up is that Tresca's security procedures made it trivially easy for Honor's people to tap into his communications. They were basically adequate for their intended purposes, and it's easy to understand why he left it at that rather than trying to secure himself against unexpected threats.
Batman wrote:Not all that heavy actually. A 40x46mm grenade weighs in at all of 200-230 grams or so, so 30 of them would be about 7 kilos. Call it 10 kilos for the weapon and you're about half again the weight of a loaded M60. Heavy? Hell yes. Bulky? You bet. But definitely portable and operable by a single person. Of course it depends how you define a useful ammo loadout because yeah, you're not going to be able to carry much in the way of replacement magazines. But then neither are the people who carry GPMGs.
Not all that heavy actually. A 40x46mm grenade weighs in at all of 200-230 grams or so, so 30 of them would be about 7 kilos. Call it 10 kilos for the weapon and you're about half again the weight of a loaded M60. Heavy? Hell yes. Bulky? You bet. But definitely portable and operable by a single person. Of course it depends how you define a useful ammo loadout because yeah, you're not going to be able to carry much in the way of replacement magazines. But then neither are the people who carry GPMGs.[/quote]If all you're going to arm yourself with is thirty rounds, there's much less advantage to using an automatic weapon, because you only get a handful of bursts and then you're out of ammunition- your combat endurance is very short.

Real life GPMGs may be that heavy... but for a real life GPMG, the 'minimum' unit of fire carried by a single man is measured in hundreds of rounds, not a few dozen.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

An M60 with a measly 100 rounds weighs in at almost 13 kilos. The problem with 40mm grenades isn't the weight, it's the bulk. And I'm reasonably certain I have admitted from the word 'go' that this isn't a sensible idea-just that it's doable.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

This will be another chapter that earns it's own post, just for what an infodump it is. Everyone who hasn't read the series before, and returning readers, please give a warm welcome to the Mighty Minnie.
It seemed probable, but Weyland was a big place—not as large as Vulcan or Hephaestus, but still the better part of thirty kilometers long. It was also tucked away orbiting Gryphon, otherwise known as Manticore-B-V, which had caused a few of Gearman's hospital buddies to groan in sympathy when they heard about his travel orders. Gryphon was the least Earth-like of the Manticore System's three habitable planets. It had required far more terraforming than Manticore or Sphinx, and its extreme axial tilt gave its weather an unenviable reputation among the inhabitants of its sister planets. Worse, from the viewpoint of certain Navy hotshots, its sparsely scattered population was noted for regarding the sissies who lived on the Star Kingdom's other worlds with a certain contempt. That attitude, unfortunately, carried over into the local civilians' attitude towards visiting military personnel in search of diversion and, coupled with the lack of anything like real cities, left those same military personnel with a limited selection of off-duty entertainment possibilities.
Weyland is 30 km across, or close enough. Just a little on Gryphon, the least Earth-like, most sparsely populated of Manticore's three worlds.

After nineteen months of regen therapy, he'd had about all the leave he could stand.
Without regen, it took just about a year for Honor to recover from having her eye blown out and half her face paralyzed. What takes over a year-and-a-half to fix with regen?

It had become traditional over the last twenty or thirty T-years for the Royal Navy to assign its more sensitive R&D prototypes to Weyland's technical support teams, mainly because the secondary component of the binary system saw so much less foreign shipping traffic. Manticore-B's massive asteroid belts supported a very heavy industrial presence, and huge freighters hauled both finished components and massive loads of raw materials from its orbital smelters to Manticore-A. But the main freight transshipment points for the Star Kingdom orbited either Manticore or Sphinx, and that was where the vast majority of the out-kingdom shipping stayed.
Weyland is the default shipyard for hush-hush R&D projects, pretty much because no one else's ships have any business being there, unlike Manticore or Sphinx.

"Minotaur is the first unit of a new, experimental class," she told them. "I realize you didn't get a look at her before you came aboard, so here she is now." She pressed a button on the keyboard at her data terminal, and a razor-sharp holo image appeared above the table. Heads turned as her newest subordinates looked, and she saw Stackowitz's eyes narrow in surprise.

Truman didn't blame her, for no one had ever seen another ship quite like HMS Minotaur. She was obviously a warship—she had the telltale hammerhead ends—and she massed almost exactly six million tons. That put her in the upper third of the dreadnought range, yet even a casual glance was enough to tell anyone that whatever Minotaur might be, she was certainly no dreadnought. The rows of enormous hatches on her flanks were much too big to be normal broadside weapons bays, and they were arranged in a pattern whose like none of them had ever before seen.

"People," Truman said softly, "you have just become members of the crew of the first LAC-carrier of the Royal Manticoran Navy."
Alice Truman is commanding, and Sally MacBride is the bosun for, HMS Minotaur the prototype/proof-of-concept CLAC (Carrier LAC, you can just say it "clack"). The R&D on this one is Project Anzio, though they'll also be a testbed for much of Ghost Rider's advancements.

"Originally, BuShips wanted to build a much smaller experimental model with which to prove the concept, but the projections always called for a dreadnought-sized hull for the final units, and Vice Admiral Adcock sold Admiral Danvers on building her full size. His exact words, I believe, were "The best scale for an experiment is ten millimeters to the centimeter!'" She smiled again. "So here we are.
Found the Adcock.

"As I'm sure you've noticed," she went on in the tones of a Saganami Island lecturer as she stood and used an old-fashioned light-pointer to pick out details on the holo, "she has no broadside armament at all—aside from her LACs, of course. She masses just under six million tons, with an overall length of two-point-two klicks and a maximum beam of three hundred and sixty-seven meters. Our offensive shipboard armament is restricted to our chase mounts, which, however, are quite heavy: four grasers and nine missile tubes each, fore and aft. On the broadside, we mount only anti-missile defenses and the LAC bays, which—at the moment—are empty."
CLAC armament.
The Unicorn Belt was the innermost—and richest—of Manticore-B's three asteroid belts, and the Hauptman Cartel's Gryphon Minerals, Ltd., subsidiary owned about thirty percent of it outright, with long-term leases on another third. The cartel had built enormous extraction centers and smelters to service its mining operations, and there had been persistent rumors even before the war that Hauptman Yards, Ltd., the shipbuilding unit of the mighty cartel, had been using its Unicorn Yard to build experimental Navy units well away from prying eyes. And the Jankowski Cartel, though far smaller than Hauptman's, was highly specialized and a major player in the Navy's R&D operations in its own right.

In fact, Gearman thought, Jankowski's who handled the major share of R&D on adapting the Grayson compensator design for the Fleet, aren't they?
The Manticore system has three asteroid belts (lots of room for baronies) of which the Unicorn Belt is the richest in valuable metals. It is also the site of the yards where the Hauptman Cartel has been building their LACs on contract from the Navy.

"Minotaur's core ship's company is only six hundred and fifty," Truman went on, and her new subordinates blinked, for that was barely seventy percent of the crew assigned to most heavy cruisers five percent her size. "We've managed this by building in a much higher degree of automation than BuShips was prepared to accept prewar, and, of course, by eliminating all broadside weapons. In addition, we carry only a single company of Marines instead of the battalion normally assigned to a DN or an SD. On the other hand, our current TO&E calls for us to embark approximately three hundred additional shipboard personnel to provide permanent engineering and tactical support to the LAC wing. That, Commander Stackowitz, is where you will come in."
Crew sizes, most of which were available to us anyways, 800-odd for a heavy cruiser. Wallers normally have a full battalion of Marines, the influence of automation, lots to talk about. For the moment they're only taking on pilots and crews for thirty or so LACs, assuming none of them are dedicated techs who stay with the carrier.

"All right," Truman said more briskly, recapturing her audience's attention, "here's what our LACs will look like."

She punched more buttons, and Minotaur's holo vanished. A new image replaced it almost instantly—a sleek, lethal shape that looked as if it should have come from deep water with a mouth full of fangs—and all three of the junior officers straightened in their chair as its unconventionality registered.

The most immediately obvious point about it was that, except for the absence of anything remotely like an airfoil, the sharp-prowed vessel looked more like an enormously overgrown pinnace than a normal LAC, for it lacked the flared, hammerhead bow and stern of all impeller-drive warships. The next point to penetrate was that it had absolutely no broadside weapons bays—or point defense stations. But perhaps the most astounding point of all almost sneaked past unnoticed, for the vessel in that holo image had only half as many impeller nodes as it should have. No LAC was hyper-capable, so there had never been any need to fit them with the alpha nodes of true starships. But for over six centuries, a full strength drive ring for any impeller warship had mounted sixteen beta nodes. Everyone knew that.

Except that this LAC didn't. There were only eight nodes in each of its rings, although they looked a little larger than they should have been.
Appearance of the new Shrike-class LACs. Cross-sections were provided in the back of the book, along with a pinnace to be used as an emergency lifeboat.

Image
"This, people," Truman said, gesturing once more with the light-pointer, "is the lead unit of the Shrike-class. She masses twenty thousand tons, and, as I'm sure you've noticed," the pointer reached into the HD, "there have been some changes, including the omission of the standard hammerheads. That's because this vessel's primary energy armament is right here." The pointer touched the small ship's sleek prow. "A one-point-five-meter spinal mount equipped with the latest grav lenses," she told them, watching their eyes, "which permits her to carry a graser—not a laser—approximately as powerful as that mounted in our Homer-class battlecruisers."
Grav lenses are sometime mentioned as being able to increase the intensity of lasers, much later missile laser heads will get a substantial upgrade form them. The Shrikes mount, are built around, rather, a BC-scale graser. 1.5 m/5 feet across, twice as powerful and 56% wider than a heavy cruiser's.

"The power of this weapon is made possible because it is the only offensive energy weapon she mounts, because her missile armament has been substantially downsized, because her impeller node mass has been cut by forty-seven percent, and because her crew is even smaller than that normally assigned to a LAC. Her entire complement will consist of only ten people, which allows a major reduction in life support tonnage. In addition, her normal reactor mass bunkerage has been omitted."
Crew of 10 for a Shrike, limited missiles and no hydrogen tanks full of reactor fuel.

"In that case, Ma'am, just what does she use to fuel her fusion plant?"

"She doesn't have one," Truman told him simply. "She uses a fission pile."

-snip-

"Yes, I said 'fission,'" Truman told them after giving them most of a minute to absorb it, "and it's another thing we've adapted from the Graysons. Unlike the rest of the galaxy, they still use fission plants, although they've reduced their reliance on them steadily for the last thirty or forty years. But Grayson—and, for that matter, Yeltsin's asteroid belts, as well—are lousy in heavy metals . . . and fissionables. They'd bootstrapped their way back to fission power by the time of their Civil War, and by the time the rest of us stumbled across them again and reintroduced them to fusion, they'd taken their fission technology to levels of efficiency no one else had ever attained. So when we added modern, lightweight antiradiation composites and rad fields to what they already had, we were able to produce a plant which was even smaller—and considerably more powerful—than anything they'd come up with on their own.

"I don't expect anyone to be installing them on any planetary surfaces any time soon. For that matter, I doubt we'll see too many of them being installed in capital ships. But one of the new plants handily provides all the power a Shrike needs, and despite all the bad-history bogeyman stories about fission, disposal of spent fuel elements and other waste won't be any particular problem. All our processing work is being done in deep space, and all we have to do with our waste is drop it into a handy star. And unlike a fusion plant, a fission pile doesn't require a supply of reactor mass. Our present estimate is that a Shrike's original power core should be good for about eighteen T-years, which means the only practical limitation on the class's endurance will be her life support."
*cough*

GLORIOUS KERBAL GRAYSONS!!

Yeah, Honorverse powers think very little of nuclear fission, it's primitive and dangerous and even Honor looked down a little on Grayson in book 2 for using it. In fairness, there seems to have been a lot of campaigning by environmentalists and Neo-Luddites to bury fisson, and hydrogen is a lot easier to come by than fissionable materials. And once again Grayson does something the rest of the universe disdains, and comes out ahead once the idea is applied with Manticoran components and technical know-how.

One of a conventional LAC's several drawbacks was that its small size prevented it from cramming in anything like the bunkerage of regular warships. RMN battlecruisers could take on sufficient reactor mass for almost four months, but they were specifically designed for long-range, deep penetration raids as well as convoy protection. A light attack craft, on the other hand, was fortunate to be able to stow sufficient hydrogen for a three-week deployment, which made her dreadfully short-legged compared to her betters. But if she only had to refuel every eighteen years—!
So Honorverse ships are limited by fuel/reactor mass, well we've seen them pause to take some on before. Four months worth of fuel for a BC, and I suspect for other cruisers, but no more than three weeks for a traditional LAC.

"Good. Now, if you'll look back at the holo," Truman went on, "you'll notice these projections here." The pointer's light beam swept over a series of eight open-mouthed, elongated blisters, just aft of the forward impeller ring and placed so that they aligned with the spaces between the ring's nodes. "These are missile tubes," she told them. "These four—" the pointer tapped "—are anti-ship launchers, each equipped with a five-round 'revolver' magazine. The Shrike only has twenty shipkillers, but she can launch one from each tube every three seconds." It was Stackowitz's turn to purse her lips silently, and Truman's pointer indicated the other four tubes. "These are for counter-missiles, and the reduction in normal missile armament lets us fit in seventy-two of those. In addition, if you'll notice here—" the pointer touched the sleek prow again. "These are point defense laser clusters: six of them, in a ring around the graser emitter."
A Shrike only has four missile tubes, and each of those a magazine with five missiles (20 total, if you've forgotten basic multiplication) but each tube can fire a bird every 3 seconds. For comparison, the next fastest refire rate we've ever seen is 11 seconds from Fearless II, while your average BC rapid-fires a missile from each tube every 17 seconds, and an SD 20 seconds. Sure they're just tiny destroyer-weight missiles, but they add up, especially with eight or more LACs spamming missiles at you.

Also four counter-missile tubes, with just 72 birds, and six laser clusters, all on the front.

The Shrikes have a sister class, the Ferret that ditches the graser for cramming it full of EW and ECM gear, while more than doubling the ship-killer and counter-missile loads (56 shipkillers and 150 counter-missiles) as a support craft.

Also, in just under a decade the Hauptman Cartel will produce a hyper-capable Shrike at the cost of more than doubling the size, but they'll have a Ferret's missile loads and two forward grasers. These are the Nat Turner-class, the first frigates produced by/for a serious Navy in a very long time. I understand they're a big hit on Silesian escort runs.

"Isn't it just a little, um . . . risky for something as small as a LAC to cross it's own 'T' whenever it fires at an enemy starship, Ma'am?"

-snip-

"These are another innovation—for now we're calling them 'Beta-Squared' nodes—which are much more powerful than older nodes. In addition, they've been fitted with a new version of our FTL com—one with a much higher pulse repetition rate—which should make the Shrikes very useful as manned long-range scouts. I imagine we'll be seeing something like it in larger ships in the not too distant future. What matters for our present purposes, however, is that the new nodes are very nearly as powerful as old-style alpha nodes, and we've also built much heavier sidewall generators into the Shrike to go with them. The result is a sidewall which is about five times as tough as anything ever previously mounted in a LAC.

-snip-

"The idea is that LACs will attack single starships in sufficient numbers that it will always be possible for them to close obliquely. The new missile tubes, coupled with the recent improvements in seekers, molycircs that can handle higher-grav vector shifts, and a higher acceptable delay between launch and shipboard fire control's hand-off to the missile's on-board systems, will let them fire effectively at up to a hundred and twenty degrees off bore. That means the Shrikes can engage with missiles—and launch counter-missiles against incoming fire—even on an oblique approach. Once they reach energy range, however, they turn directly in towards their targets and bring up their 'bow' sidewall . . . which has only a single gunport, for the graser, and is twice as powerful as the broadside sidewalls. That makes it as tough as most dreadnought's sidewalls, people, and according to the Advanced Tactical Course's simulators, a target as small as a bow-on LAC should be much harder to hit than a larger warship engaging broadside-to-broadside even under normal circumstances. When you add the sort of electronic warfare capabilities these ships have, they turn into even harder targets, and the presence—and power—of their 'bow' sidewalls should make them harder to kill even if the bad guys do manage to lock them up."
So much ground to cover...

Shrike sidewalls are 5x more powerful than previous LACs, and when they attack they can raise a bow wall twice as powerful, or roughly as strong as a superdreadnought, meaning an SD only has a sidewall ten times more powerful than an LACs, despite outmassing an LAC by three orders of magnitude. It can't alter course or acceleration as long as the bow wall is up, but that should only happen during an attack run anyway.

They've vastly increased the capacity of FTL comms, to the point where they can't quite have real-time conversations or stream video (give them a few years) but they can come close, messages transmitted over the course of thirty seconds or less. They've come a long way from *pulse* thirty seconds *pulse* sixty seconds *pulse* thirty seconds *pulse. Naturally the new and widely available FTL comms are going to make LAC scouts and recon platforms even more of a headache for the other side.

Oh yes, and a trio of innovations, most of them related to software, but also including the ability of hardware to withstand extreme G turns, missiles can now be fired radically off-bore, 120 degrees off a straight-line from the missile tube.

"In addition, these ships are fitted with very extensive ECM and a suite of decoys which cost almost as much as the main hull does. All our simulations say that they'll be very difficult missile targets even at relatively short ranges, and particularly if they're supported by additional decoy and jammer missiles. We're currently looking at whether it will be more effective to provide conventional warships to supply those missiles or whether it will make more sense to load them into the LACs' own tubes at the cost of reducing their load-outs on shipkillers.
LACs have lots of ECM and some decoys, they need it in lieu of thick armor and redundantly large crews.

"Nonetheless, a good shot will hit even a difficult target, and if one of these LACs is hit by almost anything, it will be destroyed. So once we commit them to action, we will lose some of them, people. But even if we lose a dozen of them, that's only a hundred and twenty people—a third of a destroyer's crew and less than six percent of a Reliant-class battlecruiser's crew. And between them, those twelve LACs will have twenty-one percent more energy weapon firepower than a Reliant's broadside. Of course, they won't have a fraction of the battlecruiser's missile power, and they have to get to knife range to really hurt the enemy. No one is trying to say they can magically replace capital ships, but all the projections and studies say that they can be a major enhancement to a conventional wall of battle. They should also be able to provide us with a local defense capability that can stand up to raiding Peep squadrons and let us pull our regular capital ships off picket duty, and their range and endurance on station should also make them invaluable for raids behind the enemy's frontier."
The harsh reality that Honor and White Haven struggled against for so long, LACs are expendable. Ten lives, a platform far cheaper than a hyper-capable ship, it's true. They'll do the best they can, with technology and tactics to reduce casualties in the LAC wings, but at the end of the day LACs are cheaper in lives and funds than an equivalent volume of true warships.

Planned strategic role of LACs.

"Captain?" Stackowitz half-raised a hand, asking permission to speak, and Truman nodded. "I was just wondering, Ma'am—how many LACs will Minotaur carry?"

"Allowing for docking buffers and umbilical service points, the total mass cost per LAC, including its own hull, is about thirty-two thousand tons," Truman said in an almost off-hand tone. "Which means we can only carry about a hundred of them."

"A hun—?" Stackowitz cut herself off, and Truman smiled.

"A hundred. The wing will probably be divided into twelve eight-LAC squadrons, and we'll carry the other four as backups," she said. "But I think you can see what kind of force multiplier we're talking about if a single carrier Minotaur's size can put that many of them into space."
Image

Grayson (and Haven when they finally get around to it) will actually build their CLACs to superdreadnought scale, and thus be able to carry two hundred LACs, though I believe they keep the eight-ship squadrons. Each of those ships will have a similar number of missile tubes (albeit not as deep magazines) as your average destroyer's broadside, plus a BC graser. Oh yes, and having the latest Grayson-style compensators and very little mass, they have the best accel/decal in space, 635 Gs and their carrier, staying safely outside the fray at all times? Is the first ship with internal MDM launchers. :twisted:
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
DarkArk
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2010-10-08 10:38am
Location: Seattle

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by DarkArk »

And sorry, but calling Tourville a traitor for letting Honor live resulting in a sequence of events that only a psychic could have foreseen is just petty.
Then how else would you define his actions? He just literally provided aid to an enemy that had just got done destroying one of his own ships. Statesec might be completely morally repugnant, but if that was the case he should have just defected in the first place.
Also, under the circumstances he may have lost absolutely all desire to collaborate with StateSec for any reason whatsoever- wasn't he concerned that Ransom or StateSec might have him shot on account of he now knows the location of Hades?
Of course. Honestly I can understand his actions if he decided to not help Tepes when he was not ordered to. I could understand not volunteering information to his superiors with regards to what Ransom ultimately wanted to do with him. It's the part where he knows enemy personnel got away, and did nothing to stop them. That he did not know how much damage Honor would end up doing is irrelevant.

Clearly neither of us are going to agree with the other on this issue, so I'm fine if you want to drop it and move on to more fruitful discussion.
It may be an irrational act.
I dislike saying that a character does something stupid simply because they are insane. I consider it to be both lazy writing and thinking. Further, as ideological as Ransom is, she does seem to understand the basics of strategy otherwise she wouldn't have gotten where she did. To be fair, she never says where it is, just that it exists. I think she was trying to induce more terror in the population.
Another possibility is that the defenses are actually designed to engage ships that physically try to fly into the defenses- to ensure that any ship approaching Hades peacefully is "under the guns" of Camp Charon and can be destroyed if they try anything funny.
That makes a hell of a lot of sense. Ideally its secrecy should keep enemy ships from ever showing up in the first place, which means you want to control what ships do show up.

The new LACs are awesome. I remember when I first read that chapter how much joy I had in going over all the awesome things they should be able to do.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:This will be another chapter that earns it's own post, just for what an infodump it is. Everyone who hasn't read the series before, and returning readers, please give a warm welcome to the Mighty Minnie.
Woohoo! Yaaaay! Also...

[protossvoice]

Carrier has arrived.

[/protossvoice]
Without regen, it took just about a year for Honor to recover from having her eye blown out and half her face paralyzed. What takes over a year-and-a-half to fix with regen?
Bulk tissue damage? The regen therapy may take a lot of time to grow back, say, a whole leg. By contrast, Honor's surgery was basically just implanting something and applying "quick-heal," which is different from regen, to ensure the wounds close quickly.
Truman didn't blame her, for no one had ever seen another ship quite like HMS Minotaur. She was obviously a warship—she had the telltale hammerhead ends—and she massed almost exactly six million tons. That put her in the upper third of the dreadnought range, yet even a casual glance was enough to tell anyone that whatever Minotaur might be, she was certainly no dreadnought. The rows of enormous hatches on her flanks were much too big to be normal broadside weapons bays, and they were arranged in a pattern whose like none of them had ever before seen.
I could swear that recent RMN dreadnoughts were heavier than six million tons...
*cough*

GLORIOUS KERBAL GRAYSONS!!

Yeah, Honorverse powers think very little of nuclear fission, it's primitive and dangerous and even Honor looked down a little on Grayson in book 2 for using it. In fairness, there seems to have been a lot of campaigning by environmentalists and Neo-Luddites to bury fisson, and hydrogen is a lot easier to come by than fissionable materials. And once again Grayson does something the rest of the universe disdains, and comes out ahead once the idea is applied with Manticoran components and technical know-how.
Also, they use gravitics to produce some really impressive power outputs on a fusion reactor. I have a hard time seeing how fission plants can get within shouting distance given how they actually work.
So Honorverse ships are limited by fuel/reactor mass, well we've seen them pause to take some on before. Four months worth of fuel for a BC, and I suspect for other cruisers, but no more than three weeks for a traditional LAC.
Since by design LACs never get that far from their own bases, sacrificing fuel storage for other systems seems like a logical choice...
Shrike sidewalls are 5x more powerful than previous LACs, and when they attack they can raise a bow wall twice as powerful, or roughly as strong as a superdreadnought, meaning an SD only has a sidewall ten times more powerful than an LACs, despite outmassing an LAC by three orders of magnitude. It can't alter course or acceleration as long as the bow wall is up, but that should only happen during an attack run anyway.
It's not clear what "more powerful" means in a sidewall... by the way, the SD may be much heavier but it also has a considerably larger physical area to cover with its sidewalls, which may limit the power increase.
They've vastly increased the capacity of FTL comms, to the point where they can't quite have real-time conversations or stream video (give them a few years) but they can come close, messages transmitted over the course of thirty seconds or less. They've come a long way from *pulse* thirty seconds *pulse* sixty seconds *pulse* thirty seconds *pulse. Naturally the new and widely available FTL comms are going to make LAC scouts and recon platforms even more of a headache for the other side.
I suspect that the enhanced FTL comm performance may have to do with the new upgraded beta nodes, which may be specifically designed to emit pulsed grav signals.
The harsh reality that Honor and White Haven struggled against for so long, LACs are expendable. Ten lives, a platform far cheaper than a hyper-capable ship, it's true. They'll do the best they can, with technology and tactics to reduce casualties in the LAC wings, but at the end of the day LACs are cheaper in lives and funds than an equivalent volume of true warships.

Planned strategic role of LACs.
The system defense role for LACs works pretty well too. Arguably an extension of what Honor did at Sidemore after beating Warnecke.
DarkArk wrote:Then how else would you define his actions? He just literally provided aid to an enemy that had just got done destroying one of his own ships. Statesec might be completely morally repugnant, but if that was the case he should have just defected in the first place.
Tourville is hitting the point where he ceases to perceive all the agencies of his own country as being part of his own country. It's a difficult position for a dissident to be in, especially during wartime. I don't think we should be quick to criticize Tourville's character.

Defining treason under a tyrannical and unjust state isn't easy.
It may be an irrational act.
I dislike saying that a character does something stupid simply because they are insane. I consider it to be both lazy writing and thinking. Further, as ideological as Ransom is, she does seem to understand the basics of strategy otherwise she wouldn't have gotten where she did. To be fair, she never says where it is, just that it exists. I think she was trying to induce more terror in the population.
I agree. When I say "irrational" I don't mean "insane" or "occurs for no reason." I mean "she may not be fully objective" or "she may be overestimating the importance of one sort of (explicit) terror over another sort of (subtle) terror." Or "she may be acting in a way that would run counter to the interests of, say, Pierre and Saint-Just, but not care because she perceives them as having crossed her too many times lately and wants to re-emphasize her own power."

All these things are, to varying degrees, 'irrational.' But they aren't the acts of a complete madwoman. They're the acts of a fanatical and often unreasonable or unjust person... who is nonetheless quite intelligent and has reasons for the things she does.
Another possibility is that the defenses are actually designed to engage ships that physically try to fly into the defenses- to ensure that any ship approaching Hades peacefully is "under the guns" of Camp Charon and can be destroyed if they try anything funny.
That makes a hell of a lot of sense. Ideally its secrecy should keep enemy ships from ever showing up in the first place, which means you want to control what ships do show up.
Hm. It would make a certain kind of sense, especially since if, say, a fleet showed up demanding to transfer prisoners... they'd have to fly within range of the defenses. The InSec people responsible may have envisioned a scenario like:

"Okay, we'll let you pick up your prisoners, come a little closer..." [kaboom]

Also, of course, any conceivable escape attempt would involve a ship either already orbiting the planet or leaving the planet- again, a reason to make use of the defenses.

In which case Honor is using the defenses exactly as planned... just with the wrong fingers on the buttons. :D
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

I have doubts about the fission plants myself but they do have hydrogen beat something fierce where fuel density is concerned (I don't recall metallic hydrogen mentioned anywhere in the series so I presume liquid/slush), and Weber is right about how pathetically easy it is for a starfaring nation to get rid of spent fuel. And since for whatever reason Honorverse fusion reactors can also explode, the inherent danger of a runaway fission pile is pretty much a nonissue (especially as on a spaceship you do have to option of just ejecting the damned thing).
And while I still doubt fission has the efficiency to power Honorverse DEW (at least at BC level graser levels) I'm not too certain fusion works for their capital ships without either preposterous fuel consumption or cheating (or for their reaction thrusters, for that matter) either-I mean, a single 1MT laser/graser shot would require what, fusing in excess of 28 kilograms of hydrogen? I say if they get to cheat for fusion they get to cheat for fission too :P
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16337
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Also, another thought-Gryphon still essentially stinks as real estate goes despite heavy terraforming. Do we know what it looked like before, and if so, what if anything does that tell us about Honorverse terraforming capabilities?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

As far as Tourville goes, I think after everything he went through trying to do right by the prisoners and getting overruled, he'd had enough. Letting them go was a small enough thing for people he respected far more than the StatSec goons on the ground. I assume he didn't know about the food thing and expected them to live as castaways, possibly indefinitely. I see no contradiction between this and his moving to render aid to Tepes, even if Ransom had effectively made it an enemy ship (and made it very clear that something nebulous but horrible would happen to Tourville either shortly after reaching Hades or Nouveau Paris) all the not-explicitly-evil officers in the honorverse seem to operate on the old Law of the Sea: there are no flags and nations when men are about to drown. We'll sort out who is whose prisoner later.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Now we check in on Grayson.
He reached out, offering the staff, but Benjamin didn't take it. Instead, he shook his head, and Clinkscales' eyes widened. It was rare on Grayson for a steadholder to perish without leaving any heir, however indirect the line of succession. Indeed, it had only happened three times in the planet's thousand-year history—aside from the massacre of the Fifty-Three which had begun the Civil War . . . and the attainting of the Faithful which had concluded it. But the precedent was there, and Benjamin's refusal of the staff had thrown Harrington Steading's Regent completely off balance.
Traditionally if a Steadholder dies without an heir, a rare occurrence, the Protector holds and governs the land and people until such time as he sees fit to elevate a Steadholder to rule them. Such appointments remain subject to the approval of the Conclave.

"True. But the extended Harrington family is quite extensive . . . on Sphinx. She had dozens of cousins, Howard."

"But they're not Graysons," Clinkscales protested, "and only a Grayson can inherit a steadholder's key!"

"No, they're not Graysons. And that's what makes the situation complicated. Just as you discussed it with Justice Kleinmeuller, His Grace and I have discussed it with the High Court. And according to the Court, you're right: the Constitution clearly requires that the heir to any steading must be a citizen of Grayson. That, however, is largely because the Constitution never contemplated a situation in which a foreign citizen could stand in the line of succession for a steading. Or in which an off-worlder could have been made a steadholder in the first place, for that matter!"

"Lady Harrington was not an 'off-worlder'" Clinkscales said stiffly, eyes flashing with anger. "Whatever she may have been born, she—"
"My treasure had dozens of nephews and cousins, and one I must get or my heart it will break..."

Interesting that the Constitution, written over four centuries after the last contact Grayson had had with the rest of humanity would still specify that only a Grayson citizen could be a Steadholder.

"But she became a Grayson citizen when she swore her Steadholder's Oath to you."

"Of course she did. And if I choose to use that as a precedent, then what I ought to do is send for her closest heir—her cousin Devon, isn't it, Henry?—and swear him in as her successor. After all, if we could make her a Grayson, we can make him one, as well."
The moment Honor became a Grayson citizen, which may or may not set a precedent, for the moment most parties are against it. Honor's cousin Devon Harrington, a professor of history at a prestigious Mantie university, will inherit much of her estate on Manticore, but her Key? He's not a Grayson, and he'd have a hard job earning the trust and respect of Grayson the way Honor did.

"If you think you could get the hidebound faction in the Conclave to sign off on this, then all that fancy off-world schooling is getting in the way of your instincts again! By your own admission, you'd have to set a new—another new—constitutional precedent just to make it work! And whatever Mueller and his crew may have said to her face, they never really forgave her for being a foreigner, and a woman, and the spear point for your reforms. They'd never swallow another foreigner—and one who doesn't have the Star of Grayson
See? Hidebound traditionalists alive and well in even the current Grayson climate.

"But if we don't offer it to him, we may open still another Pandora's Box," Prestwick said quietly. Clinkscales looked at him, and the Chancellor shrugged. "Under our treaty with Manticore, the Protectorship and the Star Kingdom are mutually pledged to recognize the binding nature of one another's contracts and domestic law—including things like marriage and inheritance laws. And under Manticoran law, Devon Harrington is Lady Harrington's heir. He's the one who will inherit her Manticoran title as Earl Harrington."

"And?" Clinkscales prompted when Prestwick paused.

"And if he does want the Harrington Key and we don't offer it to him, he might sue to force us to surrender it to him."

"Sue the Protector and the Conclave?" Clinkscales stared at him in disbelief, and the Chancellor shrugged.
Part of the original Manticore-Grayson treaty Raoul Courvosier worked on was mutual recognition of each other's domestic laws and contracts.

Confirmation that Devon will receive Honor's asteroid fief, which I'm pretty sure is a comte, not an earldom. Unless she's gotten an off-screen upgrade.

"Certainly I am. But I'm also the man trying to reform the planet, remember? And if I'm going to insist that my steadholders give up their autonomy and abide by the Constitution, then I have to abide by it, as well. And the constitutional precedent on this point is unfortunately clear. I can be sued—not in my own person, but as Protector and head of state—to compel me to comply with existing law. And under the Constitution, treaties with foreign powers have the force of law." He shrugged again. "I don't really think a suit would succeed before our own High Court, given our existing inheritance laws, but it could drag on for years, and the effect on the reforms and possibly even on the war effort could be most unfortunate. Or he could sue in a Manticoran court, in which case he might well win and leave our government at odds with the Star Kingdom's while both of us are fighting for our lives against the Peeps. Not good, Howard. Not good at all."
The Protector can be sued for breaking the law, and forced into compliance even if he is above torts as a private individual.

Anyways, plan B is to turn Harrington Steading into Clinkscales Steading, Howard absolutely rejects and refuses the idea.

"She didn't mention it to me. But she did mention that she and Lady Harrington's father have decided to remain here on Grayson for at least the next several years. She said—" the old man's smile faded a bit around the edges "—that they'd decided that the best memorial they could give the Steadholder would be to bring Harrington Steading's medical standards up to the Star Kingdom's, so they'd like to move their practices here. And, of course, she herself is deeply committed to the genome project."
Honor's parents and their way of honoring her memory.

Howard's right, he thought. That possibility never even crossed my mind, and it should have. So what if Doctor Harrington—both Doctors Harrington—are in their eighties? Physically, Honor's mother is only in her early thirties. And even if they were too old to have children "naturally," we've got all of the Star Kingdom's medical science to draw on! We could have a child tubed, assuming the Harringtons were willing. And if the child were born here on Grayson, then he'd have Grayson citizenship whatever his parents' nationality may have been.
Clinkscales realizes that through the wonders of prolong, Honor's parents are still of childbearing age despite being easily eighty.


"For that matter, there's another possibility entirely," Prestwick pointed out. Both of the others looked at him, and he shrugged. "I'm quite certain Lady Harrington's mother has samples of the Steadholder's genetic material, which means it would almost certainly be possible to produce a child of Lady Harrington's even at this date. Or even a direct clone, for that matter!"

"I think we'd better not start getting into those orbits," Benjamin cautioned. "Certainly not without consulting Reverend Sullivan and the Sacristy first, at any rate!" He shuddered at the mere thought of how the more conservative of his subjects might react to the Chancellor's musings. "Besides, a clone would probably only make matters worse. If I remember correctly—and I'm not certain I do, without looking it up—the Star Kingdom's legal code adheres to the Beowulf Life Sciences Code, just as the Solarian League's does."

"Which means?" Clinkscales asked, clearly intrigued by the notion.

"Which means, first of all, that it's completely illegal to use a dead individual's genetic material unless that individual's will or other legal declaration specifically authorized the use. And secondly, it means that a clone is a child of its donor parent or parents, with all the legal protections of any other sentient being, but it is not the same person, and posthumous cloning cannot be used to circumvent the normal laws of inheritance."
After the Final War, the Beowulf Life Sciences Code has become the universally accepted standard of medical ethics, and is enshrined in law by Manticore, Haven, the Solarian League... and this conversation will go a long way towards adding Grayson to the list.

Under the BLSC, human cloning without the explicit consent of the person being cloned is strictly forbidden, a clone is legally the child of it's genetic donor but is not the same person, cannot revoke wills and certainly cannot inherit titles over natural-born children or heirs. A posthumous clone can be created and made heir, but only if this is made explicit in the will of the deceased.

"All right, I do see that. And it probably wouldn't be a bad idea for us to quietly insert that Beowulf code into our own law, Your Grace, since we now have access to medical science which would make something like that possible. But how would that effect a child born to the Steadholder's parents after her death?"

"It wouldn't," Clinkscales said positively. "The precedents are clear on that point, Henry, and they go back almost to the Founding. It's unusual, of course, and I suppose that to be absolutely legal, the Key should pass to Devon Harrington until such time as Lady Harrington's parents produce a child, but then the Steading would revert to her sibling. In fact, I think there was actually an example of that from your own family history, Your Grace. Remember Thomas the Second?"
Planned succession for Harrington Steading, the most powerful men on Grayson deciding to over time adopt the BLSC.

"There's no physical reason why they couldn't, and Dr. Harrington—the Steadholder's mother, I mean—has discussed the possibility with my wives in a theoretical sense, at least. And if it would be inconvenient for them to do it, ah, the natural way, they could always tube a child. That wouldn't be a clone of Lady Harrington, so I don't see where it would be a problem."
Tubing, or uterine replicators, have been mentioned before, as one f the services the Navy provides to female officers and servicewomen. It's an old sci-fi idea, you surgically extract an embryo early in formation and carry it to term in an artificial womb that can be monitored and adjusted carefully through the duration. Spares the women most of the pains and problems of pregnancy and childbirth while removing the single greatest bottleneck in human reproduction, that a woman can only have roughly one child in one year.

Perhaps that had been her fault, she mused. She was the one from cosmopolitan (read: crowded, stratified, smug, and obsessed with stability, she thought dryly) old Beowulf, where conspicuous contributions to population growth were more than simply frowned upon. Sphinx, on the other hand, was still a relatively new planet, with a total population of under two billion. Multichild families were the rule there, not the exception, and there was certainly no stigma attached to them.
Beowulf vs. Sphinx on ideal family sizes.

Most off-worlders, impressed with Beowulf's reputation for idiosyncratic personal life styles and sexual inventiveness, never realized how conformist the planet truly was. Allison had frequently wondered if that was because the "norm" to which its citizens conformed was such a liberalized template, but the pressure not to offend the system or offend the preconceptions upon which the template rested was only too evident to a native Beowulfan. A person could be anything she wanted . . . so long as what she wanted to be came off the menu of choices approved by the planet's social—and economic—consensus, and everyone was so damned smug about how superior their "open-mindedness" was to all those other, backward planets.

Yet for all its emphasis on stability and orderliness, Beowulf had no such thing as an hereditary monarchy or aristocracy. It was a sort of representative, elective oligarchy, governed by a Board of Directors whose members were internally elected, in turn, from the memberships of an entire series of lower-level, popularly elected boards which represented professions, not geographical districts, and it had worked—more or less, and despite occasional glitches—for almost two thousand years.

Coming from that background, she'd always been mildly amused by the aristocratic Manticoran tradition. It hadn't impinged directly upon her or her yeoman husband and his family, and she'd been willing to admit that it did a better job than most of governing. Indeed, she'd heaved a huge sigh of mental relief when she realized that, aristocratic or not, the Star Kingdom's society was willing to leave people alone. She'd delighted in scandalizing her more staid Sphinxian neighbors for almost seventy years, but very few of them had ever realized that it was because she could. That however much some citizens of her adopted star nation might disapprove of her, that mind-numbing, deadly reasonable, and eternally patient Beowulfan pressure to conform to someone else's ideal and "be happy" simply did not exist there. Yet grateful as she was for that, and deeply as she had come to love her new homeland, the notion of inheriting a position of power and authority, however hedged about by the limitations of the Star Kingdom's Constitution, had always struck her as absurd.
Beowulf government and society. I'm reminded of something I heard once about Japan, that it's insanely culturally conservative but it's incredibly conservative about (and take deadly seriously) traditions that look really, really silly to outsiders (read: Westerners). People who break the mold are shunned, unless enough people do a particular thing that it becomes part of the new normal and that weird canon of culture. Well, that's what I heard, the closest I've ever been to Japan is a Hibachi restaurant.

So I see Beowulf as being highly liberal and PC, and decidedly unfriendly to those who aren't. Another parallel might be Beta Colony form the Vorkosigan books, hopefully without the Mental Hygiene Police.

"The reason for telling you, Your Grace, is that my research and mapping suggest quite conclusively to me that this portion of the genetic code of your people—" she jabbed an index finger at the cursor in the holo image "—was deliberately altered almost a thousand years ago."

-snip-

"As nearly as I can reconstruct what must have happened, Your Grace, at least one person, and possibly several, in your original colonial medical team must have been real crackerjack geneticists, especially given the limitations of the technology then available. As you may be aware, they were still using viruses for genetic insertions rather than the precisely engineered nanotech we use today, and given the crudity of such hack and slash methodologies, his—or their—achievements are truly remarkable."

"I am less surprised to hear that than you might think, My Lady," Sullivan interposed. "The original followers of Saint Austin were opposed to the way technology had, as they saw it, divorced men from the lives God wished them to lead. But they recognized the advances in the life sciences as the gift of a loving Father to His children, and their intention from the beginning was to transplant as much of that gift to Grayson as they could. And that was certainly as well for all of us when our ancestors discovered what sort of world they had come to."

"I believe that probably constitutes at least a one or two thousand percent understatement, Your Grace," Allison said wryly. "One of the things which has puzzled those of us who have studied the situation has been how your colony could possibly have survived for more than a generation or two amid such lethal concentrations of heavy metals. Obviously, some sort of adaptive change had to have occurred, but none of us could understand how it happened quickly enough to save the colony. Now, I think, I know."

She took a sip of tea and crossed her own legs, leaning back in her chair and cradling the tissue-thin porcelain cup between her hands.

"Heavy metals enter the body via the respiratory and digestive tracts, Your Grace, hence your air filtration systems and the constant battle to decontaminate your farm soil. Apparently, whoever was responsible for this—" she jutted her chin at the holo image once again "—intended to build a filtration system into your bodies as well, by modifying the mucosal barriers in your lungs and digestive tract. Your secretory proteins are substantially different from, say, my own. They bind the metals—or a large proportion of them, at any rate—which allows them to be cleared from the body in sputum and other wastes, rather than being absorbed wholesale into the tissues. They don't do a perfect job, of course, but they're the reason your tolerance for heavy metals is so much higher than my own. Up until two or three months ago, the assumption, particularly in light of your ancestors' limited technological resources and, um, attitude towards the resources they did have, was that this must represent a natural facet of adaptive evolution, even if we had no idea how it had happened so quickly."
The grand secret Allison Chou Harrington uncovered, Graysons were genetically engineered to resist heavy metal poisoning. Sadly, due to the relative crudity of the tools and methods available, this also resulted in the high Grayson infant mortality rate. Nanotech used for contemporary genetic tinkering, while the Grayson geneticist(s?) used a modified rhinovirus. Possibly to do the work in total secrecy.

"I suppose it's possible, even probable, that Father Church's servants have suppressed . . . unpleasant information from time to time in our history, but if so, they did it without Father Church's approval. Or the Tester's." Her eyebrows rose against her will, and he chuckled again. "My Lady, we believe God calls us to the Test of Life, which requires us to test both ourselves and our beliefs and our assumptions as we grow and mature in His love. How could we do that, and what validity would our Tests have, if Father Church itself distorted the data which forms the basis upon which we are to make them?"

"I . . . hadn't thought of it that way, Your Grace," Allison said slowly, and this time Sullivan laughed out loud.

"No, My Lady, but you've been rather more polite about it than some off-worlders have. We are a people of custom, and one which has traditionally embraced a highly consensual Faith and way of life, yet our Faith is also one of individual conscience in which no one—neither a man's Steadholder, nor his Protector, nor even the Reverend or the Sacristy—may dictate to him on matters of the spirit. That is the central dynamic of our beliefs, and maintaining it has never been easy. Which is fair enough, for God never promised us the Test would be easy. But it means that, for all our consensuality, we have experienced many periods of intense, even bitter debate and doctrinal combat. I believe that has ultimately strengthened us, but memories of those periods make some of us uneasy about embracing changes in our Church and society. To be perfectly honest, I myself harbor some personal reservations about at least some of the changes—or, perhaps, about the rate of change—which I see around me. Yet not even the priests of Father Church, or perhaps especially not the priests of Father Church, may dictate to the consciences of our flock. Nor may we properly decide that this or that bit of knowledge, however unpleasant we may fear its consequences will be, should be restricted or concealed. So continue with your explanation, please. I may not fully understand it, and it may yet shock or concern me, but as a child of the Tester and of Father Church, it is my duty to hear and at least try to understand . . . and not to blame the bearer of the news for its content."
Some of the central tenets of the Church of Humanity Unchained.

"And is there anything which can be done about this, My Lady?"

"It's really too early for me to say yes or no to that one, at least with any degree of confidence. I've isolated two or three possible approaches, but the site of the problem may well make things difficult, because the mutated gene on the X is near the zinc-finger X protein gene. That's a key gene in sex determination, and it's at the Xp22.2—" She paused as his expression began to indicate that he was lost once more.

"It's at a locus where changes can involve literally dozens of disease states, Your Grace," she simplified. "Many of those diseases are lethal, and others can cause disorders of sex determination. We know a lot more about sex differentiation than whoever whipped up your survival modification did, but we still dislike meddling with it, and particularly in this area. There's a lot of room for small errors to have large consequences, and even if we avoid the more dangerous disease states, the Beowulf Code specifically prohibits genetic manipulation in order to predetermine the sex of a child." She grimaced. "There were some very unpleasant—and shameful—episodes relating to that in the first and second centuries Ante Diaspora, and I'm afraid they've been repeated from time to time on some of the more backward colony worlds since. Nonetheless, I think I could probably at least ameliorate the situation. But whatever I do, it will take time to perfect the methodology . . . and probably result in at least some decreased fertility among your planet's male population."
Years, likely decades of work ahead if they're going to fix the infant mortality rate, at least now they know why it's so gender-skewed. And they know the cause, which is a lot more than they had a few weeks ago. the BLSC forbids genetic tinkering to predetermine gender, I imagine there are some interesting stories in how and why.

"Good. And if I may offer one bit of advice—or, perhaps, make a request?"

"Certainly you may, Your Grace," Allison said. Of course, I don't have to follow the advice if it violates my own professional oaths, she thought, bracing herself for some last-minute swerve towards suppression of her findings.

"This information must be made public, and the sooner the better," he said firmly, "yet it would be wiser, I think, to allow the Sword to make the announcement."
Reverend Sullivan surprises Allison again.

"Actually," Katherine said with a wicked smile, "we're all rather hoping some of the other Keys decide to follow your example, Allison. Tester knows half the wives out there are hovering on the brink of death from pure envy over your 'social coup' right now!" Allison's eyebrows rose, and Katherine chuckled warmly. "Of course they are! You're the first hostess outside the immediate Mayhew Clan or one of its core septs who's had the sheer nerve to simply invite the Protector and his family over for a friendly family dinner in over two hundred T-years!"
Apparently you don't just invite the Protector and family over for supper, not in the last two centuries anyway.

"We both grew up on Grayson, of course, but I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it from the inside can really understand just how . . . entrenched the protocol at Protector's Palace really is. Not deep down inside."

"We've had a thousand years to make it ironclad," Benjamin said with a shrug. "It's like an unwritten constitution no one would dream of violating . . . except, thank God, for foreigners who don't know any better. That's one reason Honor was such a breath of fresh-filtered air."
Sometimes I just love the little touches, like Graysons tending to be agoraphobic when they can't see a ceiling or dome, or sayings like "a breath of fresh-filtered air."

"I imagine you've heard at least a few people muttering about how 'proper' Grayson women don't work?"

"Well, yes. I have," Allison admitted.

"Well, that's one of the stupider social fables around," Katherine said roundly. "Traditionally, women haven't been paid for working, but believe me, running a Grayson home requires more than someone to bear and raise children. Of course, most of us were never allowed the formal training men got—Benjamin was dreadfully unconventional in that regard—but you try tearing down an air filtration plant, or monitoring the metals levels in the vegetables you're planning on cooking for supper, or managing the reclamation plant, or setting the toxicity alarms in the nursery, or any one of a thousand and one other 'household' chores without at least a practical education in biology, chemistry, hydraulics—!"
Grayson women's on-the-job education and working lives.

Inwardly, she wondered which off-worlder had been stupid enough to step on Katherine Mayhew's toes . . . and to hope it hadn't been a Manticoran. She didn't think it would have been. For the most part, the Star Kingdom refused to tolerate intolerance, although it was less self-congratulatory about it than Beowulf, but she could call to mind one or two Sphinxians who might have been prudish enough to offend. Given the enormous disparity between male and female births, Grayson attitudes towards homosexuality and bisexuality were inevitable, and Sphinx was by far the most straitlaced of the Star Kingdom's planets. For a horrible moment, Allison wondered if somehow Honor could have—? But no. Her daughter might have been more sexually repressed than Allison would have preferred, but she'd never been a prude or a bigot. And even if she had been, Katherine Mayhew certainly wasn't the kind of person to bring it up to hurt Allison now that Honor was gone.
Maybe not all Grayson social mores are staunchly conservative. But enough of that, it's time for Honor's will, or the bare-bones basics anyway.

"First of all, I was quite astounded to discover just how large an estate Honor left. Excluding her feudal holdings here on Grayson as Steadholder Harrington, but including the value of her private interest in Sky Domes and your new Blackbird Shipyard, her net financial worth at the time of her death was just under seventeen-point-four billion Manticoran dollars." Despite himself, Benjamin pursed his lips and whistled silently, and Allison nodded.

"Alfred and I had no idea the estate had grown to anything that size," she went on matter-of-factly, with only the pressure of her grip on her husband's hand to show how dearly bought her outer calm was. "For that matter, I'm not at all certain she realized it, especially since over a quarter of the entire total was generated out of the Blackbird Yard in the last three years. But Willard had things superbly organized for her, as usual, and he seems to have managed to execute her wishes completely.
As of her "death" Honor was worth 17.4 billion Manticoran. Aside from Grayson Sky Domes, she invested heavily in a privately-owned yard on Blackbird building ships for the GSN and apparently saw massive returns in the last couple of years.

"The biggest part of what she wanted done was her instruction to merge all of her personal holdings and funds in the Star Kingdom—exclusive of a few special bequests—and fold them over into Grayson Sky Domes. Lord Clinkscales will continue as CEO, and Sky Domes will be held in trust for the next Steadholder Harrington with the proviso that all future financial operations will be based here, on Grayson, and that a majority of the members of the Sky Domes board of directors must be citizens of Harrington Steading. Our understanding is that Willard will be relocating to Grayson to serve full-time as Sky Domes' chief financial officer and manager."

"That was very generous of her," Benjamin said quietly. "That much capital investment in Harrington and Grayson—and in our tax base—will have a major impact."

"Which was what she wanted," Alfred agreed. "There are, however, those special bequests Alley mentioned. Aside from a very generous one to us, she's also establishing a trust fund of sixty-five million dollars for the treecats here on Grayson, adding another hundred million to the endowment for the clinic, and donating fifty million to the Sword Museum of Art in Austin City. In addition, she's going to establish a trust fund for the families of her personal armsmen in the amount of another hundred million and—" he looked at MacGuiness "—she's bequeathed forty million dollars to you, Mac."
Taking care of Sky Domes, Mac and the treecat colony. Plus her mom's genetics clinic and a substantial donation to an art museum, and trust funds for the families of her armsmen.

"Of course she didn't 'have to,' Mac. She wanted to. Just as she wanted to leave Miranda twenty million."
Honor's maid, LaFollet's sister and the first Grayson to bond with a treecat becomes independently wealthy.


Oh, and one of the Mayhew daughters, little Rachel gets adopted by a treecat. Yay.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
Jedipilot24
Youngling
Posts: 79
Joined: 2012-02-13 03:51pm
Location: Boston

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Jedipilot24 »

Confirmation that Devon will receive Honor's asteroid fief, which I'm pretty sure is a comte, not an earldom. Unless she's gotten an off-screen upgrade.
I'm pretty sure that the Star Kingdom uses the nobility system where Countess=Earl. It is, after all, Great Britain IN SPACE!

To clarify, in some nobility systems--including that of Great Britain--the term "Earl" is used instead of "Count" but "Countess" is still used for the female equivalent.
Michael Westen wrote: Killers, by and large, are whining losers.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Batman wrote:And while I still doubt fission has the efficiency to power Honorverse DEW (at least at BC level graser levels) I'm not too certain fusion works for their capital ships without either preposterous fuel consumption or cheating (or for their reaction thrusters, for that matter) either-I mean, a single 1MT laser/graser shot would require what, fusing in excess of 28 kilograms of hydrogen? I say if they get to cheat for fusion they get to cheat for fission too :P
Well, they appear to be able to turbocharge a fusion reaction by using more of those stupidly intense gravitational fields to compress the fusion plasma. Having a means of exerting non-electromagnetic forces of real, significant power on a fusion reaction would really help.

In theory you could compress a fission reaction the same way, the problem being that you can't really compress a fission reaction without getting a critical mass, while fusion is a bit more limited in that respect. Although really, since fusion reactors in the Honorverse are dynamically unstable and must be controlled constantly by active computer systems to avoid an explosion, maybe they do have an ongoing criticality accident in their own fission piles.
Batman wrote:Also, another thought-Gryphon still essentially stinks as real estate goes despite heavy terraforming. Do we know what it looked like before, and if so, what if anything does that tell us about Honorverse terraforming capabilities?
Gryphon's main problem seems to be that it's simply too far from the sun- it's cold. And it has a high axial tilt which results in pretty drastic weather apparently.

Terraforming can't really fix those problems unless you can physically move planets (which would be... remotely doable with Honorverse technology but insanely difficult). With enough redirected comets you can change a planet's rotation period and 'day' length if you don't care about the quality of the real estate, but I'm not sure you can fix axial tilt and you darn sure can't do much about orbital period.
Ahriman238 wrote:"My treasure had dozens of nephews and cousins, and one I must get or my heart it will break..."

Interesting that the Constitution, written over four centuries after the last contact Grayson had had with the rest of humanity would still specify that only a Grayson citizen could be a Steadholder.
They haven't forgotten that other humans exist, though- so I'm not that surprised.

[They may also have been trying to bar any Masadan from ever claiming a Key]
Planned succession for Harrington Steading, the most powerful men on Grayson deciding to over time adopt the BLSC.
Or something like it. They may not wind up with exactly the same set of laws as a more liberal place like Manticore (or Beowulf), but they're at least going to address the issue intelligently rather than allowing each individual case to ambush their shocked populace. Very progressive and very conservative at the same time.

GLORIOUS KERBAL GRAYSONS!
Honor's maid, LaFollet's sister and the first Grayson to bond with a treecat becomes independently wealthy.

Oh, and one of the Mayhew daughters, little Rachel gets adopted by a treecat. Yay.
Protector's security detail: "Finally we get one of our own! Woohoo!"
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Post Reply