The Shrike is sent to the following universes

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The Imperator
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by The Imperator »

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:Hm. The entire Hyperion Cantos cycle is basically a gloss in the margin of Keats, so the obvious thing to do is sic the invisible worm that flies in the night on it, problem solved.

I don't buy the caveat; it is fantastically, symbolically deadly hand to hand, and the way to fight it and defeat it is with symbols, with myth, with literary devices. Like the invisible worm.

From Trek, Kirk wouldn't have much of a chance, he'd try to do it the hard way; it would simply eat Janeway or Archer (and they deserve it); Picard, being better read, would probably have a better chance.

Star Wars, a hero could do it, but not a detached, emotionless hero- the jedi would be helpless, because they are not in tune with the myth, they're almost as much empty symbols as it is. Palpatine- or Luke, falling and rising- would have the meaning and the mana to overwrite it, overcome what it represents. Damn' few else.

For the Shrike, looking at a later, Time War era Dalek would be looking into a mirror. So very alike in meaning if not motive and means- and it would be one among, against millions.
Earlier? I doubt it could defeat Whoverse time- engineering; it has the subtlety of a craftsman, not a calculating genius- Gallifreyan technology would fix it, and being stasered would be poetic justice.

Photino birds, it's doubtful if it could even touch. Xeelee, likewise- certainly not what would be sent against it (nightfighters) if it ever actually became a problem. Lesser beasties, like the Squeem and Qax [Baxter has no flair for names, almost as bad as David Brin]- have lesser abilities to resist, but the physical work of eliminating a Qax may be difficult.

I know nothing of Faction Paradox, and don't really care.

I said non-humans, so why are Kirk, Janeway, and Archer fighting it? Though, Janeway may not be human... :P

Oops, I will remove Xeelee and Photino birds from thelist of things needing to be killed, since they are out of the Shrike's league.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by fgalkin »

The Imperator wrote:

Oops, I will remove Xeelee and Photino birds from thelist of things needing to be killed, since they are out of the Shrike's league.
I sense a bit of bias in the OP. :lol:

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by The Imperator »

fgalkin wrote:
The Imperator wrote:

Oops, I will remove Xeelee and Photino birds from thelist of things needing to be killed, since they are out of the Shrike's league.
I sense a bit of bias in the OP. :lol:

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Well, it's more of an impossibility, since the fight would never happen. :roll: :D


Thanks for the quotes, btw.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Batman »

Yeah. I mean Feds fighting to preserve nonhuman lifeforms. Totally unpredecented.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by The Imperator »

Batman wrote:Yeah. I mean Feds fighting to preserve nonhuman lifeforms. Totally unpredecented.
Well, now they get a lot more space to spread out :lol:
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Batman »

Somebody obviously didn't get the point. Have you ever actually watched Star Trek?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by bilateralrope »

How does the Shrike define 'human' for Star Trek when there are so many aliens who can breed with humans ?

Are AIs on it's list of targets or not ?

How is it likely to treat humans who have been captured by the borg ?
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by The Imperator »

Batman wrote:Somebody obviously didn't get the point. Have you ever actually watched Star Trek?
Alright, the humans can fight, go for it :)

clarification - if their is a part human of that species on the show (so Klingon, Betazoid, and Vulcan) it counts as human. AIs don't count, and the Borg counts as non-human.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by weemadando »

fgalkin wrote: Yes, and even when holding back, fighting the Shrike "is like fighting several spinning propellors at once." It is also strong enough to send her flying, so that part, too, is not due to time-bullshit.

I don't think any of that counts as "pretty bad at punching guys".

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
I can hit a heavy bag REALLY hard. But I'm by no means a competent boxer and would be murdered by a decent flyweight.

Never conflate strength and technique. Especially when strength is augmented by dumb shit like being covered in knives.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by fgalkin »

weemadando wrote:
fgalkin wrote: Yes, and even when holding back, fighting the Shrike "is like fighting several spinning propellors at once." It is also strong enough to send her flying, so that part, too, is not due to time-bullshit.

I don't think any of that counts as "pretty bad at punching guys".

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
I can hit a heavy bag REALLY hard. But I'm by no means a competent boxer and would be murdered by a decent flyweight.

Never conflate strength and technique. Especially when strength is augmented by dumb shit like being covered in knives.
After you get to a certain point, size, strength, and speed become more important than technique. It's why we don't usually see 90 lb girls taking out men 4x their mass outside of Joss Whedon's works.

It doesn't matter if the Shrike knows kung fu. It's massively fast, massively strong, tough enough to withstand hits from magictech weaponry, weighs a ton, and is covered in blades. It will take apart anything it fights hand-to-hand.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Ford Prefect »

fgalkin wrote: Yes, and even when holding back, fighting the Shrike "is like fighting several spinning propellors at once." It is also strong enough to send her flying, so that part, too, is not due to time-bullshit.

I don't think any of that counts as "pretty bad at punching guys".
The Shrike does precisely zero damage to Nemes in that fight while she, again, breaks its arm, guts it and bends its iconic chest thorn to nothing. When she sticks the hyperentropic card on its body - which in itself entails getting well inside its guard - it cannot even successful get it off because Nemes just bats its arms away. The fight actually starts with Nemes in all four of the Shrike's hands, and she trivially escapes its grip. She's partly bored through the whole battle - it's clear that she's assloads better at hitting stuff, and in Rise when she fights Raul he takes her to school.

I mean you just said 'size, strength, and speed become more important than technique', but the Shrike is hugely more massive than the Nemes siblings and without exploiting its advantage in time manipulation it gets rolled.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by weemadando »

fgalkin wrote:
weemadando wrote:
fgalkin wrote: Yes, and even when holding back, fighting the Shrike "is like fighting several spinning propellors at once." It is also strong enough to send her flying, so that part, too, is not due to time-bullshit.

I don't think any of that counts as "pretty bad at punching guys".

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
I can hit a heavy bag REALLY hard. But I'm by no means a competent boxer and would be murdered by a decent flyweight.

Never conflate strength and technique. Especially when strength is augmented by dumb shit like being covered in knives.
After you get to a certain point, size, strength, and speed become more important than technique. It's why we don't usually see 90 lb girls taking out men 4x their mass outside of Joss Whedon's works.

It doesn't matter if the Shrike knows kung fu. It's massively fast, massively strong, tough enough to withstand hits from magictech weaponry, weighs a ton, and is covered in blades. It will take apart anything it fights hand-to-hand.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
We're not talking about "knowing kung fu" or any shit like that.

The Shrike has been shown to not be any of those things when it can't exploit time mechanics.

And even if it is massive strong and large, it's clearly not massively strong and large enough to defeat a skilled opponent of much smaller size.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by fgalkin »

Ford Prefect wrote:
The Shrike does precisely zero damage to Nemes in that fight while she, again, breaks its arm, guts it and bends its iconic chest thorn to nothing. When she sticks the hyperentropic card on its body - which in itself entails getting well inside its guard - it cannot even successful get it off because Nemes just bats its arms away. The fight actually starts with Nemes in all four of the Shrike's hands, and she trivially escapes its grip. She's partly bored through the whole battle - it's clear that she's assloads better at hitting stuff, and in Rise when she fights Raul he takes her to school.

I mean you just said 'size, strength, and speed become more important than technique', but the Shrike is hugely more massive than the Nemes siblings and without exploiting its advantage in time manipulation it gets rolled.
Uh...
Your time has passed, she thinks at the Shrike as their displacement-shrouded arms and legs slash and counterslash like invisible scythes. Reaching through the thing's less-focused shield, she seizes a joint on its upper arm and rips thorns and blades away.
(emphasis mine). She won because the Shrike's displacement shield thingy is weaker than her own, NOT because the Shrike sucks at punching things. In other words, the same reason why the Shrike won those other times- time displacement fuckery.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Ford Prefect »

Are you even reading the things I'm posting? How do you explain Nemes getting inside the Shrike's guard, placing the hyperentropic card on its chest and then trivially batting away its own arms? How do you read a fight which has one side with its guts literally hanging out and the other side totally uninjured and quipping about the distraction and conclude 'yeah it was pretty even'?
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by fgalkin »

Ford Prefect wrote:Are you even reading the things I'm posting? How do you explain Nemes getting inside the Shrike's guard, placing the hyperentropic card on its chest and then trivially batting away its own arms? How do you read a fight which has one side with its guts literally hanging out and the other side totally uninjured and quipping about the distraction and conclude 'yeah it was pretty even'?
Now I KNOW you're not reading what I'm posting because nowhere did I say that the fight was "pretty even" or anything other than one-sided. Go on, re-read my posts for what I've actually said, which is that Nemes won because she has a better timefuck field than the Shrike (and also probably because the Shrike had to protect Aenea- it couldn't, for example, simply get out of the way of Nemes' attacks, it had to parry them).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

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Ford Prefect wrote:Are you even reading the things I'm posting? How do you explain Nemes getting inside the Shrike's guard, placing the hyperentropic card on its chest and then trivially batting away its own arms? How do you read a fight which has one side with its guts literally hanging out and the other side totally uninjured and quipping about the distraction and conclude 'yeah it was pretty even'?
Guts literally hanging out? Yeah, that was Gyges with his intestines all over the place, not the Shrike. The only damage the Shrike takes in the fight on God's Grove with Nemes is some surface-level barb/thorn damage on its arm, having its chest thorn bent by an active displacement field (no sign of this damage in later appearances, so it is likely temporary bending due only to the field, not a permanent bend in the thorn), and having a hyperentropic card placed on its body and activated. Also, it seems to me like the use of the hyperentropic field is an admission by Nemes that she would be incapable of defeating the Shrike, or at least not able to do so before running too low on energy to accomplish her mission (kill Aenea).
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Ford Prefect »

fgalkin wrote:Now I KNOW you're not reading what I'm posting because nowhere did I say that the fight was "pretty even" or anything other than one-sided. Go on, re-read my posts for what I've actually said, which is that Nemes won because she has a better timefuck field than the Shrike (and also probably because the Shrike had to protect Aenea- it couldn't, for example, simply get out of the way of Nemes' attacks, it had to parry them).
She doesn't win because its protective shielding is less focused, it's simply one aspect. She is clearly its superior in terms of just plain fighting: there is absolutely no way to look at her trivially slapping away all four of its arms trying to get the hyperentropic card off, or trivially escaping from its grip, and then conclude 'this is because she had better shielding'. Additionally most of the fight does not actually occur in the vicinity of Aenea, as at the end Nemes has to walk back.

Look, it's arms are SO LONG and it has SO MANY and they are SO MADE OF KNIVES that every fight should result in someone like Nemes never getting closer than its wrists, but guess what happens more than once? It's just not very good at fighting. As it turns out its powers are so vast that this is largely irrelevant, given that Nemes second encounter is just her going 'wait what' and getting suckerpunched, and Gyges gets ruled too. But this is after it's stopped playing by the rules of the New Bushido, not before.
Terralthra wrote:Guts literally hanging out? Yeah, that was Gyges with his intestines all over the place, not the Shrike.
She sticks her hand into the Shrike's abdomen and pulls out something like guts made out of barbed wire.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Terralthra »

Do you enjoy randomly making shit up? Because I have the book right here, and you keep saying things that aren't actually in it.
Ford Prefect wrote:She is clearly its superior in terms of just plain fighting: there is absolutely no way to look at her trivially slapping away all four of its arms trying to get the hyperentropic card off.
The book makes no reference to her slapping away "all four of its arms":
Endymion wrote:"That's all," cries Nemes as she jumps back, shifts to fast time to bat away the Shrike's attempt [attempt, singular] to remove the card, and activates it by thinking of a red circle.
Ford Prefect wrote:Look, it's arms are SO LONG and it has SO MANY and they are SO MADE OF KNIVES that every fight should result in someone like Nemes never getting closer than its wrists, but guess what happens more than once? It's just not very good at fighting. As it turns out its powers are so vast that this is largely irrelevant, given that Nemes second encounter is just her going 'wait what' and getting suckerpunched, and Gyges gets ruled too. But this is after it's stopped playing by the rules of the New Bushido, not before.
There's no reference in the books to it following the rules of New Bushido to begin with, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.
Ford Prefect wrote:
Terralthra wrote:Guts literally hanging out? Yeah, that was Gyges with his intestines all over the place, not the Shrike.
She sticks her hand into the Shrike's abdomen and pulls out something like guts made out of barbed wire.
She tries to pull out guts:
Endymion wrote:Nemes grins as she feels the four fingers of her hand penetrate armor and carapace. She grabs a fistful of innards and jerks them out, hoping to remove whatever foul organs keep the beast alive but coming away with only a handful of razor-wire tendons and shards of carapace.
She tries to gut it, but gets (even in her own estimation) nothing of value.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Ford Prefect »

You just posted a description of Nemes disemboweling the Shrike, and yet you want us to believe that it didn't get disemboweled?

Are you for real?

PS. we know it follows the New Bushido from Fall where it responds to Kassad's challenge of single combat, which frames a lot of its 'playing fair' both in Hyperion and Endymion quite neatly. It's a pretty clear implication from the narrative, and not unexpected given that we know the Shrike to be built from a mental model of Kassad.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Terralthra »

Ford Prefect wrote:You just posted a description of Nemes disemboweling the Shrike, and yet you want us to believe that it didn't get disemboweled?

Are you for real?
Given that the description I quoted included an explicit comment that it did not, in fact, get disemboweled, yes. If Nemes had done that to a human, sure, it would've been a gutting, but the narrator clearly states "only a handful of razorwire and some carapace". And that attack only staggers the Shrike for a second, as later in the fight, the narration indicates that Nemes is using "all her energy" simply defending herself from the Shrike's attacks.
PS. we know it follows the New Bushido from Fall where it responds to Kassad's challenge of single combat, which frames a lot of its 'playing fair' both in Hyperion and Endymion quite neatly. It's a pretty clear implication from the narrative, and not unexpected given that we know the Shrike to be built from a mental model of Kassad.
Kassad, who himself abandons New Bushido at South Bressia, and again, when fighting the Ousters at the Time Tombs?
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

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Terralthra wrote:Given that the description I quoted included an explicit comment that it did not, in fact, get disemboweled, yes.
You just posted a description of someone getting a hand in its innards and those innards pulled out. That's a disembowelment.
Kassad, who himself abandons New Bushido at South Bressia, and again, when fighting the Ousters at the Time Tombs?
The fight against the Ousters is like classic New Bushido, given that the Shrike is deliberately giving the Ousters a chance, as opposed to just having them frozen in time so that Kassad and Moneta can cut them down.

e: I don't even know why this is so important to you. It's no mark against the infinitely powerful tool of God if it isn't so hot at hand-to-hand combat.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by fgalkin »

Frod wrote:She doesn't win because its protective shielding is less focused, it's simply one aspect. She is clearly its superior in terms of just plain fighting: there is absolutely no way to look at her trivially slapping away all four of its arms trying to get the hyperentropic card off, or trivially escaping from its grip, and then conclude 'this is because she had better shielding'. Additionally most of the fight does not actually occur in the vicinity of Aenea, as at the end Nemes has to walk back.
Here's the relevant quote:
Nemes is within a meter of the brat when the Shrike emerges from the cloud of steam that had been theriver and blindsides her from the left. Her swinging arm misses the two human heads by centimeters asshe and the Shrike roll away from the river, slicing up turf to bedrock and snapping off trees until they slam into another rock wall. The Shrike's carapace throws sparks as the huge jaws open, teeth closing on Nemes's throat. "You've . . . got ... to be ... rucking . . . kidding," she gasps behind the displacement mask. Being chewed to death by an obsolete time-shifter is not on her itinerary for today. Nemes makes a blade of her hand and drives it deep into the Shrike's thorax as the rows of teeth throw sparks and lightning from her shielded throat. Nemes grins as she feels the four fingers of her hand penetrate armor and carapace.She grabs a fistful of innards and jerks them out, hoping to remove whatever foul organs keep the beast alive but coming away with only a handful of razor-wire tendons and shards of carapace. But the Shrike staggers backward, four arms swinging like scythes. Its massive jaws are still working as if the creature cannot believe it is not chewing bits of its victim. "Come on!" says Nemes, stepping toward the thing. "Come on!" She wants to destroy it-her blood isup, as the humans used to say-but she is still calm enough to know that this is not her purpose. She has only to distract it or disable it to the point that she can decapitate the human child. Then the Shrike will be irrelevant forever. Perhaps Nemes and her kind will keep it in a zoo to hunt it when they are bored. "Come on," she taunts, taking another step forward. The creature is hurt enough to drop out of fast time without dropping the displacement fields around it. Nemes could have destroyed it at her leisure except for the displacement field; if she walks around it now, it can shift up to fast time behind her. She follows it down to slow time, pleased to conserve energy
She clearly considers it not a threat. Not because it sucks at fighting, but because it is obsolete. Her fields being stronger has EVERYTHING to do with the Shrike losing. How do we know this? Kassad does the same thing to the Ousters when he's in his skin suit.
Are you even reading the things I'm posting? How do you explain Nemes getting inside the Shrike's guard, placing the hyperentropic card on its chest and then trivially batting away its own arms?
The book explains it quite well:
"That's all," cries Nemes as she jumps back, shifts to fast time to bat away the Shrike's attempt to remove the card, and activates it by thinking of a red circle.
She is in fast time, and the Shrike is not. THAT is how she slaps its arms away.

Seriously, how the fuck did you pass third grade?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by Ford Prefect »

fgalkin wrote:Seriously, how the fuck did you pass third grade?
Oh how truly cutting. However will I recover from this.

Wait, I don't have to, because I'm right. If the Shrike was better in hand-to-hand combat than the Nemes siblings it have been perfectly capable of stopping two of them chewing on its face and rolling it off a balcony like a chump, you know because of its four incredibly long superhumanly strong arms made of knives, but it didn't because it's not. It's fascinating that you keep referring to Nemes' (incorrect) impression that it's obsolete: it's just playing fair, just like it did with Kassad until Moneta started helping him out.
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Re: The Shrike is sent to the following universes

Post by madd0ct0r »

given that the shrike and its thorn tree is the epitome of human suffering that drove John Keat's poetry and underpinned the Romantic movement, it is fitting to dismantle the Shrike using a similar metaphor from a poet from the movement that superseded Romantisim:
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
`'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door -
Only this, and nothing more.'

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December,
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow; - vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow - sorrow for the lost Lenore -
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels named Lenore -
Nameless here for evermore.
Who amongst the galleries may command the Raven?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
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