Saving the the Imperium of Man

[khursed]

The Lion doesn't have the same administrative capability as Gwilly, and there are implications that he was playing both sides during the Heresy.

the lion didn't play both side, the alpha legion is, Omegon and Alpharius, the Lion had a portion of his space marines turn to chaos along with Luther when he sent them back to Caliban after Luther nearly let Lion get killed by angry chaos cultis from a backwater planet.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Lion doesn't have the same administrative capability as Gwilly, and there are implications that he was playing both sides during the Heresy.

The implications consist of the speculation of one of the Fallen and stands in direct contrast to all the direct evidence. The Dark Angels were holding the bulk of Imperium together during the Heresy while the Nightlords and others are trying to tear it apart. Konrad Kurze taunts El Jonson that no one will appreciate his work and suspect him of playing both sides because the Dark Angels are absent from the "central" battles (in an Imperium of a million worlds). El Jonson's response is essentially "then so be it, I will preserve the Imperium whatever it takes and whatever the cost" and then to break his word and treacherously attack Kurze during the parley.

[Zinegata]

There's also another incident wherein the Lion ends up handing siege weapons to the traitors, albeit it's not clear if he realized the full implications.

Also, it wasn't just the Dark Angels holding the Imperium together while the big battles were fought. The Ultramarines played a big part too; which is why most post-heresy chapters descend from them.

[Imperial Overlord]

There's also another incident wherein the Lion ends up handing siege weapons to the traitors, albeit it's not clear if he realized the full implications.

1) They weren't openly traitors at the time. The Lion thought he was giving them to loyalists. He had just spent a small ocean of blood seizing them from traitors.

2) He directly says to that they can thank him for the weapons by fucking up Horus with them.

Also, it wasn't just the Dark Angels holding the Imperium together while the big battles were fought. The Ultramarines played a big part too; which is why most post-heresy chapters descend from them.

They did, but there's two major differences between their situations:

1) the Ultramarines were directly attacked by Word Bearers and the Dark Angels weren't so the Ultramarines had more loyalist "cred" despite both being loyal.

2) The Ultramarines were the largest Legion and had the most survivors as well as being more trusted than the hyper secretive Dark Angels

[Zinegata]

Also, it wasn't just the Dark Angels holding the Imperium together while the big battles were fought. The Ultramarines played a big part too; which is why most post-heresy chapters descend from them.

They did, but there's two major differences between their situations:

1) the Ultramarines were directly attacked by Word Bearers and the Dark Angels weren't so the Ultramarines had more loyalist "cred" despite both being loyal.

2) The Ultramarines were the largest Legion and had the most survivors as well as being more trusted than the hyper secretive Dark Angels

Yeah, but the Horus Heresy fluff tends to indicate that it was the Ultramarines that did more to keep the Imperium together post-heresy precisely because they still had the numbers to actually push back the Traitor Legions after they were beaten at Terra.

And there is still the issue of the Lion not being exactly a great administrator. He's not like Guilliman who forged his own fiefdom that eventually grew to 500 worlds. Heck, he doesn't even compare to Fulgrim who converted a starving world into a prosperous world dedicated to art thanks to his skills in innovation and administration.

The Lion's background is of a knight champion, which is great for fairy tales but not exactly the sort who can lead the Imperium competently when it desperately needs a strong administrator.

So loyal or not, I don't think he's really gonna tip the balance hugely. Gives Failbaddon somebody to go one-on-one against though.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Lion isn't the administrator that Guilliman is, but calling him the knight-champion isn't giving him enough credit. He's strategic and tactical genius who is willing the let his reputation burn and others get the glory in order to accomplish his goals.

[Simon_Jester]

A lot of the primarchs, even the more bull-headed martial ones, would probably make adequate rulers and administrators for the Imperium. So much of what's needed is just an end to the stupidity and feudal bullshit; benevolent dictatorship by someone who wasn't actively megalomaniacal would probably be an improvement over the current system, as long as whoever took office could get most of the major power groups of the Imperium to listen to them.

[Alkaloid]

Which is the problem, to lead the Imperium they more or less would need to trust him, and because of his nature that is pretty difficult to do. I don't think any one of the primarchs could really run the Imperium, Gwilly is the best bet but he seems a little too controlling for me, the sort of boss who gives you a job and a precise list of instructions and tries to do the same for everyone else. It worked for him in his own little empire because he is very good at it, but the Imperium is a lot more than 100 worlds and I don't know that he would be able to let go enough to do it. Vulkan we haven't seen enough of to guess, but probably not, Corax is smart but should really be running the Inquisition or similar, Russ thrown at any rebellions to keep him out of the way, and I think all the other loyalists are confirmed dead.

[Simon_Jester]

Guilliman managed pretty well, or at least did a lot to keep things from falling apart, in the immediate aftermath of the Emperor's death. He might be able to avoid falling into stupidly severe micromanagement problems.

[Zinegata]

The Lion isn't the administrator that Guilliman is, but calling him the knight-champion isn't giving him enough credit. He's strategic and tactical genius who is willing the let his reputation burn and others get the glory in order to accomplish his goals.

I can't really say much more about the Lion because I haven't read his Horus Heresy novel, but simply being another strategic or tactical genius isn't enough. The imperium already has strategic and tactical geniuses who can win battles and campaigns (i.e. Creed). But what it needs is someone with real administrative ability to stop the rot.

In this regard the Lion really ranks near the bottom. Even Angorn beats him in the backstory - because Angorn at least creates and organizes his own slave army, whereas the Lion joins a pre-existing Order.

Which is the problem, to lead the Imperium they more or less would need to trust him, and because of his nature that is pretty difficult to do. I don't think any one of the primarchs could really run the Imperium, Gwilly is the best bet but he seems a little too controlling for me, the sort of boss who gives you a job and a precise list of instructions and tries to do the same for everyone else. It worked for him in his own little empire because he is very good at it, but the Imperium is a lot more than 100 worlds and I don't know that he would be able to let go enough to do it. Vulkan we haven't seen enough of to guess, but probably not, Corax is smart but should really be running the Inquisition or similar, Russ thrown at any rebellions to keep him out of the way, and I think all the other loyalists are confirmed dead.

Gwilly in Know No Fear doesn't actually show draconic levels of micromanagement. He's capable of such levels, but he actually tries to inhibit himself so that his subordinates learn to do things on their own.

Heck, it's the reason why he codifies so much of his knowledge - so that his underlings don't have to refer to him to make decisions; and he's probably going to be VERY annoyed at how people interpret the Codex nowadays. It is telling how the Iron Snakes (now confirmed to be an Ultramarines successor without a doubt; Damocles makes an actual cameo in Know No Fear) largely brag about how they don't need to use their brains to beat the Orks, whereas the Guilliman of the 30K era actively chastisies his soldiers for not showing individual initiative or thinking. The Space Marines of 40K see their transhuman nature as an excuse to stop using their brains. The Ultramarines of 30K by contrast were taught that being transhuman meant having greater responsibilities - meaning they had to maximize their brainpower for both war and for peaceful administration.

In fact, this sense of individual initiative and personal responsibility is so pervasive that Know No Fear ends with a shocking turnaround.

(SPOILERS) Despite losing half of their Chapter Masters, 120,000 Ultramarines, 80% of their battlefleet, and having Guilliman MIA for a considerable period, the Ultrmarines on Calth rally and essentially destroy the Word Bearers who had launched the sneak attack against them. Sergeants easily take over the commands meant for Captains after their officers are killed, simply because they were trained to build a chain of command if one no longer exists.

Abnett brillantly shows that far from being a rigid and traditionalist force (which the Ultramarines tend to be in 40K), the Ultrmarines under Guilliman are terrifying because of their sheer competence and professionalism from Primarch down to Imperial Army Auxilia. They don't have this cult of personality centered on the Primarch like the Luna Wolves. They have no need for a charismatic leader to hold them all together. They instead simply operate based on a doctrine stemming from best practices compiled by one of the most brillant minds in the Imperium, while leaving room for individual initiative and innovation based on developments in the actual battlefield.

What's ironic is that the only other Legion that displays the same level of competence and professionalism is ironically the Alpha Legion; being the only other legion to operate based on a set doctrine and individual initiative as opposed to simply relying on charismatic leadership. But the Alpha Legion focus their non-martial efforts on subterfuge and indirect methods of conquest - actual administration is something they still leave to others.

[NeoGoomba]

It doesn't seem a fair comparison of the Lion vs. Robby G. to say that Robby had 500 worlds by the time he was found and the Lion had nothing. The Lion lost a whole decade basically imitating Gau in the Veldt on a technobarbarian world. A world, mind you, that had lost so much of its tech knowledge that they couldn't replace lost suits of power armor, let alone have any off-world capability. Robby G meanwhile was on Macriddge, which already had starships of a sort, so he had a bit to work with before the Imperium found him. The Lion, on the other hand, was found almost immediately after uniting his little feudal world. So perhaps if he was able to have another decade or two on Caliban before the Emperor found him, he'd have much street cred as an administrator.

Guess I'm just a Lion apologist

[Zinegata]

It doesn't seem a fair comparison of the Lion vs. Robby G. to say that Robby had 500 worlds by the time he was found and the Lion had nothing. The Lion lost a whole decade basically imitating Gau in the Veldt on a technobarbarian world. A world, mind you, that had lost so much of its tech knowledge that they couldn't replace lost suits of power armor, let alone have any off-world capability. Robby G meanwhile was on Macriddge, which already had starships of a sort, so he had a bit to work with before the Imperium found him. The Lion, on the other hand, was found almost immediately after uniting his little feudal world. So perhaps if he was able to have another decade or two on Caliban before the Emperor found him, he'd have much street cred as an administrator.

Guess I'm just a Lion apologist

Guilli didn't have 500 worlds when the Emperor found him, that was his final number before the heresy began. But he was already forming an interstellar empire even before the Emperor arrived.

Also, the tech disparity is exactly why I compared the Lion to Fulgrim. Fulgrim turned a totally backward and starving world to a prosperous one. He didn't let lack of technology be an excuse. He invented the technology needed himself to make sure his world prospered.

Again, the Lion may be a great general. He may be an okay administrator (he did run a Legion). But compared to his brothers his ability to run an empire is really suspect.

[Alkaloid]

He is one of the fighty primarchs as opposed to they buildy ones or the leady ones. It's not a bad thing, the Imperium needs its dedicated generals as much as inventors or govenors, but he would be well out of his element in that role, really.

[Broken]

The Lion, due to his growing up in the chaos-beast infested forests of Caliban (which, iirc, was quite close to the Eye of Terror) until adulthood, was never the type of leader that men related to. However, before the Emperor found him, the Lion planned and lead the knightly orders of his world in destroying the Chaos creatures that inhabited the forests and terrorized the population. But, while the Lion was the greatest warrior and finest general on Caliban, it took his friend and brother-in-arms Luther to unite those knightly orders into a single army for the Lion to wield in cleansing his world. Which is the Lion's flaw, despite his great intelligence, his super-human physical attributes, and all the other hallmarks of a Primarch he is unable to relate to others, especially base-line humans. However, given the state of superstition and rote religious faith in the Imperium, he would get a lot done just because a PRIMARCH said to do it.

[Imperial Overlord]

In this regard the Lion really ranks near the bottom. Even Angorn beats him in the backstory - because Angorn at least creates and organizes his own slave army, whereas the Lion joins a pre-existing Order.

One pre existing order on a war torn planet that the Lion unifies and then spends much of the Heresy holding the Empire together. I'm not saying that he's got Roberto's organizational abilities, but he's got far more on the ball than Agron and isn't simply a superior soldier or even a great conqueror.

Gwilly in Know No Fear doesn't actually show draconic levels of micromanagement. He's capable of such levels, but he actually tries to inhibit himself so that his subordinates learn to do things on their own.

Know No Fear does show the Ultramarines in a nice light.

What's ironic is that the only other Legion that displays the same level of competence and professionalism is ironically the Alpha Legion; being the only other legion to operate based on a set doctrine and individual initiative as opposed to simply relying on charismatic leadership. But the Alpha Legion focus their non-martial efforts on subterfuge and indirect methods of conquest - actual administration is something they still leave to others.

Not true. Abnett spends half the Space Wolf novel making the point that the Space Wolves may outwardly appear to be a bunch of "ar barbarian thugs" they are a skilled bunch of warriors that get shit done in a practical matter. The Thousand Sons tend to look towards their primarch (and being tiny doesn't help), but are quite capable of getting things done without him.

[Connor MacLeod]

Corax is not exactly an idiot either. Nor (I suspect) was Ferrus Manus, although he clearly has a temper. And if you go by Abnett's depiction Russ (and the Wolves) aren't completely the mindless drunken berserkers we usually were used to thinking of. Hell, Dorn is no slouch either.

I dont remember the exact novel (its one of the more current ones) but it was discussed that each of the Primarchs has a.. specialty. A specific role they were meant to fill (Russ being the Executioner is one example, so maybe this is Abnett's writing.) Guilliman in the various sources basically comes across as the closest a Primarch can come to a humourless, detail-oriented Administratum/Munitorum clerk. He obsesses with data, and knowledge and statistics, and that influences his approach to war and his mentality. It's basically his niche, the same way Horus was clearly the 'leader' type.

At the same time that doesn't mean that the other Primarchs totally suck in those other roles (EG others could have been leaders, if not as good as Horus.) but they have their own niches they were meant to fill.

[Black Admiral]

Nor (I suspect) was Ferrus Manus, although he clearly has a temper.

The biggest sign of Ferrus not being dumb, IMO, is the fact that he recognises he has a temper, and selected the commander of his honour guard (Gabriel Santar) specifically to have someone around who could help keep his temper under control.

[Zinegata]

One pre existing order on a war torn planet that the Lion unifies and then spends much of the Heresy holding the Empire together. I'm not saying that he's got Roberto's organizational abilities, but he's got far more on the ball than Agron and isn't simply a superior soldier or even a great conqueror.

I'd have to disagree here, as Angron may be depicted as mostly insane because of losing his slave buddies, but his depiction in Galaxy in Flames doesn't show him to be a simple-minded raving lunatic. As Kharn points out, they're brutal because that helps ensure speedy compliance, and thus much of their terrifying reputation is actually a cold, calculated psychological move. Even Guilliman in KNF notes that the World Eaters very rarely actually totally annihilate somone (known as "Totality"), and that Angron is really a living weapon just like Russ.

Not true. Abnett spends half the Space Wolf novel making the point that the Space Wolves may outwardly appear to be a bunch of "ar barbarian thugs" they are a skilled bunch of warriors that get shit done in a practical matter. The Thousand Sons tend to look towards their primarch (and being tiny doesn't help), but are quite capable of getting things done without him.

I'm not saying that the Wolves aren't skilled warriors. But only the Ultramarines and the Alpha Legion operate on the premise that what you know and how efficiently you do it is more important than simply thumping your chest over and over again. The Ultramarines and Alpha Legion are both proper armies - whereas the Wolves are simply the epitome of a warrior tribe.

[NeoGoomba]

He is one of the fighty primarchs as opposed to they buildy ones or the leady ones. It's not a bad thing, the Imperium needs its dedicated generals as much as inventors or govenors, but he would be well out of his element in that role, really.

The Imperium could really use his strategic mind with the Hive Fleet bearing down on it. Him being a legit Primarch would help knock the Lords of Terra in line in any event. And since the whole point of the thread is "Save the Imperium", almost any Primarch showing up short of Horus or Curze would be a huge benefit to them.

Corax is not exactly an idiot either.

I felt bad for Corax because he had become a lightning rod of bad luck. After growing up a slave, reluctantly ordering the orbital bombardment of the slaver homeworld (I forget the name), surviving the Dropsite Massacre, and losing the Primarch source code, emotionally he had some baggage.

[Ahriman238]

Corax is not exactly an idiot either. Nor (I suspect) was Ferrus Manus, although he clearly has a temper. And if you go by Abnett's depiction Russ (and the Wolves) aren't completely the mindless drunken berserkers we usually were used to thinking of. Hell, Dorn is no slouch either.

I dont remember the exact novel (its one of the more current ones) but it was discussed that each of the Primarchs has a.. specialty. A specific role they were meant to fill (Russ being the Executioner is one example, so maybe this is Abnett's writing.) Guilliman in the various sources basically comes across as the closest a Primarch can come to a humourless, detail-oriented Administratum/Munitorum clerk. He obsesses with data, and knowledge and statistics, and that influences his approach to war and his mentality. It's basically his niche, the same way Horus was clearly the 'leader' type.

It is Abnett. Prospero Burns. My god Connor, can you not hear the wet leopard growls?

'When the Allfather sired his pups,' said the priest, 'He gave each one of them a different wyrd. Each one has a different life to make. One to be the heir to the Emperor's throne. One to fortify the defenses of the Imperium. One to guard the hearth. One to watch the distant perimeter. One to command the armies. One to control intelligences. You see, skjald? You see how simple it is?'
...
'What life did the Allfather choose for him (Russ)?'
'Executioner,' replied the old Wolf.

Of course, it's been said a lot before that each of the Primarchs and Legions represented a particular aspect of war. Or that each of the 20 was a pale shadow of the Emperor, still great men and leaders, but their Father's equal in one single aspect or area of expertise. IIRC, the Lion was supposed to have the Emperor's capacity for cold and ruthless logic.

If Dorn or Sanguinus could be returned from the dead (this being 40K stranger things have happened) they might be able to do better than the Lion or even Papa Smurf. Funny how the Heresy took out or turned the Imperium's best and brightest.

Remember, the Loyalist Primarchs are revered on a level a bit below the Emperor, but steps above the many Imperial Saints. They have their fair share of vast temples and statues and shrine worlds, and their word could carry a lot of weight for that.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'd have to disagree here, as Angron may be depicted as mostly insane because of losing his slave buddies, but his depiction in Galaxy in Flames doesn't show him to be a simple-minded raving lunatic. As Kharn points out, they're brutal because that helps ensure speedy compliance, and thus much of their terrifying reputation is actually a cold, calculated psychological move. Even Guilliman in KNF notes that the World Eaters very rarely actually totally annihilate somone (known as "Totality"), and that Angron is really a living weapon just like Russ.

I didn't call him a lunatic (but this is the dude whose anger and frustration lead him to kill a fuckload of his own Legion when they first tried to talk to him), but he isn't the guy who sacrificed chances for glory and his personal reputation to ensure the long term survival of the Imperium. I think our understanding of Angron is going to become more nuanced after the ABD novel which will probably show the sides of him other than violent thug (although Lorgar's reputation did fall after ABD wrote about him, but really he's fucking Lorgar), but give the Lion his due. He's not Lorgar.

I'm not saying that the Wolves aren't skilled warriors. But only the Ultramarines and the Alpha Legion operate on the premise that what you know and how efficiently you do it is more important than simply thumping your chest over and over again. The Ultramarines and Alpha Legion are both proper armies - whereas the Wolves are simply the epitome of a warrior tribe.

The Wolves clearly are focused on getting the job right in Prospero Burns, spending part of the novel directly explaining that to an outsider. Part of the focus of the novel is that people see the wolf pelts and snarling instead of banners and marching and think "barbarians" because they are deceived by the outward appearance of the Legion instead of thinking "pragmatic murder machine". Hell, there's even a part in Know No Fear where Guilliman essentially says "the Wolves really know their shit so we'll steal some of their vocab when talking about total war because that's their bag." The Thousand Sons are certainly professional. The Dark Angels are secretive motherfuckers who are the poster boys of "obtain all relevant information." Their discipline is stronger than iron and their focus is on victory, not display. The Imperial Fists are certainly solid and professional. And so on.

[Kinyo]

Well we know what 'hundreds of worlds' represents now, that's one thing. The question is, how big are these supposed 'sectors' in question? Ultramar is a sector for example, and noted in Know No Fear as having some 500 worlds, IIRC. sectors can range from a few dozen worlds (from the novel 13th Legion) to Ultramar, or possibly bigger. I'm pretty sure I recall some mention somehwere of Gothic sector being a thousand worlds. I'll have to go dig it up.

When I saw this quote I knew i'd seen it myself so after digging out my Gothic rulebook I did find it. I struggled to find it for a bit as it was in one of the rules sections and not one of the fluff sections as I thought it might. It's a line or two sandwiched between other gumpf on planets

In the Gothic sector there are over two hundred inhabited worlds and tens of thousands of other planets.

Hope this helps.

[Broken]

It is also worth noting that while almost all the Primarachs basically thought they should have been Warmaster instead of Horus (or would have taken the role if Horus didn't want it/was unavailable, etc) the Lion is often considered to have been the primary candidate after Horus, iirc. The Dark Angels Legion apparently had a record in the Great Crusade second only to Horus and his Legion after all. One would hope the post of Warmaster would only go to one with the organizational and strategic skills to not only point a warmachine like the Imperial military at the right target, but make sure its lines of communication are secure, that reserves and depots are located where needed (or might be needed), that resources are allocated properly, logistics organized and the ruthless calculus of war is applied whenever necessary (this front is more important then this one, losing this unit gains us the most advantage in this situation, etc).

Given that the Lion was not only capable of being Warmaster, but being one of the better choices for the role, I would imagine that an awakened Lion would not (at first at least) massively reorganize the Imperium as say Guilliman would, but he would make very effective use of the resources available immediately without worrying about fixing the rot under the surface until the more external threats were contained. Whether or not that would be the best choice is hard to say.

[Zinegata]

If Dorn or Sanguinus could be returned from the dead (this being 40K stranger things have happened) they might be able to do better than the Lion or even Papa Smurf. Funny how the Heresy took out or turned the Imperium's best and brightest.

Sangui, maybe. Dorn, definitely not. Dorn has way too much anti-psyker zealotry (see Black Templars) that may screw the Imperium over. Like it or not, the Imperium does in fact have to rely on Psykers to survive (particularly Navigatos and Astropaths).

He's not Lorgar.

Lol, everyone is better than Lorgar.

The Wolves clearly are focused on getting the job right in Prospero Burns, spending part of the novel directly explaining that to an outsider. Part of the focus of the novel is that people see the wolf pelts and snarling instead of banners and marching and think "barbarians" because they are deceived by the outward appearance of the Legion instead of thinking "pragmatic murder machine". Hell, there's even a part in Know No Fear where Guilliman essentially says "the Wolves really know their shit so we'll steal some of their vocab when talking about total war because that's their bag." The Thousand Sons are certainly professional. The Dark Angels are secretive motherfuckers who are the poster boys of "obtain all relevant information." Their discipline is stronger than iron and their focus is on victory, not display. The Imperial Fists are certainly solid and professional. And so on.

Which is why I said they're the epitome of a warrior tribe (not "barbarians") as opposed to being a professional army. If you want someone torn to pieces in the most comprehensive manner possible, you send the wolves. If you want a people conquered for specific strategic gain however, you send the smurfs.

Also, the highest praise from Guilliman about the wolves in KNF is to classify them as one of the "Dauntless Few", an honor not even shared by Horus' Luna Wolves. Being one of the Legions that Guilliman believes can win a doomsday scenario outright is pretty impressive.

It is also worth noting that while almost all the Primarachs basically thought they should have been Warmaster instead of Horus (or would have taken the role if Horus didn't want it/was unavailable, etc) the Lion is often considered to have been the primary candidate after Horus, iirc. The Dark Angels Legion apparently had a record in the Great Crusade second only to Horus and his Legion after all. One would hope the post of Warmaster would only go to one with the organizational and strategic skills to not only point a warmachine like the Imperial military at the right target, but make sure its lines of communication are secure, that reserves and depots are located where needed (or might be needed), that resources are allocated properly, logistics organized and the ruthless calculus of war is applied whenever necessary (this front is more important then this one, losing this unit gains us the most advantage in this situation, etc).

There are a couple who wanted the job, of which the Lion was most prominent. Most were actually apathetic or even supportive.

But most of the Primarchs actually seemed to agree that of all the other "alternate" Warmaster choices, the Lion was one of the worst. Sanguinius (whom Horus even endorsed) and Guilliman (who most think is good for the job, but can't bring themselves to support him because he lacks the charisma to carry them) were the frontrunner alternates.

[PainRack]

The entire point of discussion is not about the importance of Armageddon, but rather the degree and reason for that importance. You seem to have this idea that it is in fact as important as Cadia - you've basically argued its a lynchpin for large regions of space that they simply cannot do without, but we really haven't seen that.

In fact, the only thing that suggests Armageddon has long-reaching importance is the following, from Epic Armageddon:

I was responding to Lonestar "literally one out of thousands of forge worlds" statement and saying hey, its still important.

In the case of Armageddon, you are in effect claiming that it is SO important, that its continued survival outweighs that of entire forge worlds and multiple other hives, and that without Armageddon vast regions of space will simply be able to defend themselves and (I guess?) fall apart. Unless you're changing your mind about thta bit - you're not being very clear at this point which is hyperbole and which isn't.

But the idea that Armageddon could POSSIBLY be more important than whole Forge Worlds is pretty ludicrous.

For a simple one liner quote about its significance, in response to The Imps barely held off the orks at Armaggadeon and Lonestar "its one out of thousands" of forge worlds, I'm didn't construct as strong a claim that you think I did.

If you think that's what I'm saying, I apologise, it wasn't. It was literally an off the cuff statement about the importance of Armaggadeon that I thought hey, I should buttress what gave me that impression and I quoted it.

You claimed:

Beside, the world was considered important enough to be recolonised after the 1st Armaggadeon war.

Were you not in fact arguing that colonizing (or recolonizing - don't tell me you're going to start nitpicking definitions.) is somehow an indicator of the planet's importance, which is yet unproven (and what the quote was meant to indicate.) Hell we know they recolonized Tartarus from the Dawn of War game was also recolonised, as was Tranch,a minor hive world from the Dark Heresy RPG. What evidence do we have that actually indicates recolonization is an indication of importance?

How on god green earth is my following statement, somehow a claim that you responded to in an earlier post?

I DIDN"T claim that Armaggadeon importance rests on the fact that it was recolonised. I pointed out that it was recolonised, so, the Helsreach statement that the Imperium would turn away from Armaggadeon if its contributions dipped isn't totally true, because we know the Imperium DID reinvest resources back into Armaggadeon.

You somehow ignored the question on the bearing of the paragraph you quoted on the material contributions Armaggadeon makes to the security of the sector.

Yes you are saying it, because that is YOUR interpretation of the facts, which is the point of contention. Don't go confusing facts with evidence.

No. That's YOUR contention, of an argument I DIDN"T make.

I rebutted Lonestar statement that Armaggadeon was of no import, because it was one out of thousands forge worlds. The fluff from the text certainly argues that it IS, based on the fact that its material contributions anchors the security of hundreds of worlds in its surrounding space. For god sake, note that I'm rebutting Lonestar claim here, as I felt that it ignored the context of the Armaggadeon wars.

The claim is that the world is important because it does provide security for a large region of space, space that the Imperium deems stragetically vital for a variety of reasons. Hell, its not the only world to have that kudos. Hive world Forsarr for example,

the sector's primary planet and centre of the Imperium's power in the sector.

IA Vol 8.

Fuck. Lonestar actually gets the thrust of it and we laid it aside.
It's a big important Forgeworld, yeah, we got it. But the fighting on Armageddon has already destroyed the industry to the point where there's serious concern on the part of the defenders that the Imperium might cut it's losses. It's acting as a big Ork magnet at this point, that's it.


Seriously dude. You asked for clarifications on what prompted my statement, I replied that I quoted it and then asked a question on what the Helsreach quote had to do with the material contributions Armaggadeon made, and now I'm supposedly making some huge, immense argument on how Armaggadeon must not fall!


Fuck. The only reason why I'm still dragging out this clarification is that if I DON"T do so, I get posters reposting stuff I did in the past like Gunhead AP rounds post, or the Titans post at SB back at me in some future debate because apparently, I'm a dickhead.