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IoM vs The Thing

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Crateria
 Post subject: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 02:01pm 

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Joined: 2011-10-01 02:48pm
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Inspired by DudeGuyMan's thread of the Thing spreading to the GFFA.

What if the Thing lands on Holy Terra (or alternatively a random Hive World, or hell any Imperium planet)? It MUST conquer the entire 40k Galaxy by turning everybody into Things. Chaos is still around but to prevent a cheap "CHAOS CORRUPTS ALL THE THINGS AND CONQUERS 40K LOLOLOL" it cannot turn the Things into its servants. All the other foes of the Imperium are still there.

Will the Thing be wiped out quickly or will it succeed? Will it blend? :P

EDIT: Actually, the title should say "40k vs The Thing".
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Purple
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 02:12pm 

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The thing infects enough people to get off the planet but is otherwise stopped by the various institutions on Terra before it can do much harm to the important bits of the IOM. After that it becomes just another enemy of the week that looms over all existence like the nids, the crons and everyone else except the Tau. If we are lucky we get some hint about infected among the high lords or something. Status quo is maintained. Everything is still grimdark. Life still sucks.

On an in universe note, it would all depend on just how the thing registers for psychic detection. If it can be detected by it than it would stand no chance of hurting anything that is important and god knows the IOM can work just fine even if everything but the golden throne is rotting to the ground.
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Elheru Aran
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 02:27pm 

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The problem is that for all we hear about psykers, they really are a very marginal part of the Imperium's total population of hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of humans. They pop up a lot in what we read because they're conveniently positioned as agents of the Inquisition or Space Marine Librarians or whatever. The story of Hive #3429 on Factory-World 48-Aleph is rather less likely to feature psykers, much less ones of sufficient strength and power to detect Things, which can hide at the very cellular level of the organisms it infects.

I would almost say the Imperium is a little more screwed than Star Wars in this case... not sure why I'm thinking that right now, though.
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Silvertongue
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 03:03pm 

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Purple wrote:
The thing infects enough people to get off the planet but is otherwise stopped by the various institutions on Terra before it can do much harm to the important bits of the IOM. After that it becomes just another enemy of the week that looms over all existence like the nids, the crons and everyone else except the Tau. If we are lucky we get some hint about infected among the high lords or something. Status quo is maintained. Everything is still grimdark. Life still sucks.

On an in universe note, it would all depend on just how the thing registers for psychic detection. If it can be detected by it than it would stand no chance of hurting anything that is important and god knows the IOM can work just fine even if everything but the golden throne is rotting to the ground.


Since the Thing is essentially an infection, could it infect someone with just a few non-sentient cells, and get past the psykers that way?
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Purple
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 03:30pm 

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Elheru Aran wrote:
The problem is that for all we hear about psykers, they really are a very marginal part of the Imperium's total population of hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of humans. They pop up a lot in what we read because they're conveniently positioned as agents of the Inquisition or Space Marine Librarians or whatever. The story of Hive #3429 on Factory-World 48-Aleph is rather less likely to feature psykers, much less ones of sufficient strength and power to detect Things, which can hide at the very cellular level of the organisms it infects.

I would almost say the Imperium is a little more screwed than Star Wars in this case... not sure why I'm thinking that right now, though.

That's not really important thou. Anyone who is anyone that actually matters (like say the high lords or the inquisition) are psyhers or have psychic protection of some sort. So the ones that actually effect things and matter are safe. And if Hive #3429 on Factory-World 48-Aleph or hell the entire Factory-World 48-Aleph and its star system just happen to vanish or get infected no one would really care. After all, worlds are lost and gained each day and no one gives a dam. It's the whole grimdark thing.

To put it this way. For the Thing it was the day it came into a brave new galaxy, infected trillions and took over hundreds of star systems. For the Imperium it was Tuesday.
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Zixinus
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 03:34pm 

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Likely course of events:

Thing is detected by local arbitrators/justicars.

Inquisition gets called in.

Exterminatus (okay, maybe not that, but a throughout cleansing follows).

Some Inquisitor somewhere picks up a few remaining cells, studies it, maybe even name it.

Thing escapes containment.

Thing is killed again by Space Marines.

Somewhere on Terra, the Thing is added to the growing list of enemies of the Imperium with a pseudo-latin name.

---
The Thing is essentially nothing less than a weaker form of a genestealer-implanted zombie minus the whole thing with the Swarm.

It's been a while since I saw it, but I recall that dogs seem to be agitated by the Thing as well. That and the Thing immediately killed them all when left alone with them.
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bilateralrope
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 03:38pm 

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Crateria wrote:
Chaos is still around but to prevent a cheap "CHAOS CORRUPTS ALL THE THINGS AND CONQUERS 40K LOLOLOL" it cannot turn the Things into its servants.


If the Thing is immune to chaos, wouldn't that mean the Eldar decide to help it because doing so would greatly weaken chaos ?
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Zixinus
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 03:42pm 

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Why would the Thing help the Eldar? As far as we know, the Thing has no real goals, or even whether the Thing was sentient (or whether it is something different than what we understand it).
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Silvertongue
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 04:02pm 

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Zixinus wrote:
Why would the Thing help the Eldar? As far as we know, the Thing has no real goals, or even whether the Thing was sentient (or whether it is something different than what we understand it).


IIRC the thing in the movie was trying to build a craft to take itself out of the arctic.

bilateralrope wrote:
Crateria wrote:
Chaos is still around but to prevent a cheap "CHAOS CORRUPTS ALL THE THINGS AND CONQUERS 40K LOLOLOL" it cannot turn the Things into its servants.


If the Thing is immune to chaos, wouldn't that mean the Eldar decide to help it because doing so would greatly weaken chaos ?


Aren't the Orks immune to Chaos? Do the Eldar help the Orks for this reason?
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bilateralrope
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 04:22pm 

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Zixinus wrote:
Why would the Thing help the Eldar? As far as we know, the Thing has no real goals, or even whether the Thing was sentient (or whether it is something different than what we understand it).

By being immune to chaos, by infecting a host, the thing makes that host also immune to chaos. Thus spreading the Thing greatly limits chaos.

Silvertongue wrote:
Zixinus wrote:
Why would the Thing help the Eldar? As far as we know, the Thing has no real goals, or even whether the Thing was sentient (or whether it is something different than what we understand it).


IIRC the thing in the movie was trying to build a craft to take itself out of the arctic.

bilateralrope wrote:
Crateria wrote:
Chaos is still around but to prevent a cheap "CHAOS CORRUPTS ALL THE THINGS AND CONQUERS 40K LOLOLOL" it cannot turn the Things into its servants.


If the Thing is immune to chaos, wouldn't that mean the Eldar decide to help it because doing so would greatly weaken chaos ?


Aren't the Orks immune to Chaos? Do the Eldar help the Orks for this reason?


The problem with the Orks is that if they are united, the Eldar are also going to be in trouble when the waagh hits a craftworld. Replacing the IOM with the Thing might not, especially if the Eldar convince the Thing to stay hidden.

Though the Thing infesting Commoragh will be very bad and is unavoidable if the Dark Eldar have no other sources of slaves.
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Molyneux
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 04:23pm 

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Zixinus wrote:
Likely course of events:

Thing is detected by local arbitrators/justicars.

Inquisition gets called in.

Exterminatus (okay, maybe not that, but a throughout cleansing follows).

Some Inquisitor somewhere picks up a few remaining cells, studies it, maybe even name it.

Thing escapes containment.

Thing is killed again by Space Marines.

Somewhere on Terra, the Thing is added to the growing list of enemies of the Imperium with a pseudo-latin name.

---
The Thing is essentially nothing less than a weaker form of a genestealer-implanted zombie minus the whole thing with the Swarm.

It's been a while since I saw it, but I recall that dogs seem to be agitated by the Thing as well. That and the Thing immediately killed them all when left alone with them.


As established over in the "Thing vs. Star Wars" thread, no, the dogs were not agitated by the Thing. They didn't react in any hostile way to it until after it started turning into a tentacley monster-thing and spraying them with infective Thing-goo.

The Thing is far more virulent than a genestealer. All a Thing has to do is infect some low-level food prep person and start dropping little pieces of itself into the food supplies to spread itself.
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Silvertongue
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 04:47pm 

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Would the Tyranids be able to adapt to the Thing?
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 05:29pm 

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Don't know a lot about 40k personally, just popping in to suggest that Zixinus go look at the other thread. No, the Thing does not agitate dogs. The dogs in the movie accepted the dog-Thing into their kennel quite peacably until it began to reveal itself.

Also, if the Thing manages to assimilate anyone who knows at least as much about that universe as a random forum denizen, it's going to have an idea of what the threats are, and isn't going to go near anyone who can wipe it out. It isn't going to start trying to eat anyone important until it's so deep into the ecosystems of so many planets that you'd have to Exterminatify the entire Empire to get rid of it.

Because it knows at least as much as you do about the universe you just dropped it in and it's not a fucking moron.
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Zixinus
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 06:42pm 

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Just a note: I'm been going trough the wiki and discovered something.

According to the new movie, the Thing cannot replicate sythetic material (such as teeth fillings or even piercings).

This means that the tech-priests and anyone augmented cannot be simply taken over.

Quote:
IIRC the thing in the movie was trying to build a craft to take itself out of the arctic.


Was it stated that it only wanted to get out of the artic or that it wanted to get off-planet?

Because if it had the capacity to build the spacecraft from spare parts, it is possible that it has a cell-level memory of some kind and that it has a mission beyond Earth. A mission it wanted to return to.

Quote:
By being immune to chaos, by infecting a host, the thing makes that host also immune to chaos. Thus spreading the Thing greatly limits chaos.


1. The Thing is immune, and when it enters a host, is safe to assume that only the Thing-parts remain immune. Chaos infects people's soul after all and once the Thing takes over, it has effectively killed the host to replace it with Thing-self. It is said in the OP that Chaos cannot make the Thing it's servant, not that it projects an anti-chaos field like a Blank.

2. Except when infected by the Thing, you become the Thing. The host is killed and there is no known cure or prevantative.

3. This assumes that the Eldar have the technology to safely contain the Thing.

4. The Eldar have to know what the Thing is and have to see its chaos-immunity.

At best, you could try using it as a biological weapon (which I am guessing is what you intented?) but that then boils down to the target's resistance.

Against Chaos beings, it is unknown whether the Thing can be any effective. It is likely that Chaos will simply overwhelm the creature, no matter what form it takes.

Also, being immune is not the same as being lethal to. It is possible that the Thing cannot mimic Chaos beings and hardcore Chaos followers because it does not have the taint of Warp.
Even if it manages to fool Chaos beings not looking closely enough and it manages to infect and take over important Chaos worshipper, the lack of taint may be still a giveaway.

Therefore, attempts at its infiltration against Chaos will result in failure, making it a bad bioweapon.

Against anything else, as a preventative measure to deny more followers for Chaos, a more simple and reliable bio-weapon may be better. Or even, you know, a nuke.
The Thing is intelligent and has its own intentions, making it somewhat unpredictable. It may take revange on the Eldar or do things that the Eldar did not want it to do.

Quote:
Because it knows at least as much as you do about the universe you just dropped it in and it's not a fucking moron.


If it wasn't the moron, it wouldn't have transformed itself into an acid-spitting tentacle monster when it was isolated with the dogs. Instead, it could have slowly infected every member of the team, one by one (it just would have had to bite the dog handler to mask an injection, wait til dog handler is Thing and then infect everyone else). Hell, if the other dogs were OK with it, why couldn't the Thing just slowly infect them too?
Either it has limitations on its virulency or it's stupid.
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 07:14pm 

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I'm not rehashing every move it made in the movies just because you think that if it did anything dumb we can assume it'll automatically run up to a psyker or something and kill itself.
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Lord of the Abyss
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 07:16pm 

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Zixinus wrote:
If it wasn't the moron, it wouldn't have transformed itself into an acid-spitting tentacle monster when it was isolated with the dogs. Instead, it could have slowly infected every member of the team, one by one (it just would have had to bite the dog handler to mask an injection, wait til dog handler is Thing and then infect everyone else). Hell, if the other dogs were OK with it, why couldn't the Thing just slowly infect them too?
Either it has limitations on its virulency or it's stupid.

Or different Things have different levels of intelligence depending on various factors; a Thing working with an imitated dog brain may well be much stupider (or just much more ignorant of humans) than one using a human one for example. Smart enough to wait until they were alone, but not smart enough to realize that the humans would come back if it agitated all the dogs.
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ThomasP
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 08:09pm 

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The only reason it got caught imitating the dogs was because a MacReady happened to be up after hours. It was smart enough to wait several hours until it could assume everyone was asleep. That's not "stupid", that's a mistake, and not even that big a deal since it still won in the end.
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Molyneux
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 08:45pm 

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ThomasP wrote:
The only reason it got caught imitating the dogs was because a MacReady happened to be up after hours. It was smart enough to wait several hours until it could assume everyone was asleep. That's not "stupid", that's a mistake, and not even that big a deal since it still won in the end.


Well...not really a "win" for the Thing.
As far as the movie ending goes, it looks like the Thing either winds up dead or re-frozen in the ice.
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ThomasP
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 10:44pm 

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It got exactly what it wanted, though: the threats removed and itself frozen back in the ice to be found again. Maybe not its ideal of "build UFO, leave planet" or "eat biosphere", but from its point of view it damn sure came out ahead compared to the human protagonists.

In either case, though, it's hardly "hurr hurr stupid cause it doesn't have my internet hindsight".
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Crateria
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-26 11:26pm 

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I wonder what the Things' reaction to the Necrons will be. Or the Space Marines- is their armor sealed to protect them from a creature like the Thing? It seems the head area is unprotected. A face full of Wing-Wong Thing-Thong! :)
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Lord of the Abyss
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 12:13am 

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Crateria wrote:
Or the Space Marines- is their armor sealed to protect them from a creature like the Thing? It seems the head area is unprotected.

They have helmets; they are often portrayed as not wearing them presumably to humanize them.
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DudeGuyMan
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 12:43am 

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I can't help but think that if you're contemplating "Thing versus Space Marine in full armor" as if it matters then you're not really considering it properly. I don't know why certain people want to imagine that, when presented with it's freedom of the universe, the Thing will decide that there's absolutely nothing it should do besides immediately attempt to assimilate the King of Space and his elite Lazer Knights.

A more salient question might be, how tame is the Terran biosphere in 40k? Can a Space Marine expect to get bitten by mosquitos while drilling? Are there rats in the barracks? Is there a lot of wilderness or is it Coruscant? If so, is there an "Coruscant underworld" sort of urban wilderness?
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Crateria
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 01:25am 

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DudeGuyMan wrote:
I can't help but think that if you're contemplating "Thing versus Space Marine in full armor" as if it matters then you're not really considering it properly. I don't know why certain people want to imagine that, when presented with it's freedom of the universe, the Thing will decide that there's absolutely nothing it should do besides immediately attempt to assimilate the King of Space and his elite Lazer Knights.


Jeeze man, relax. It's only fiction. I just wanted to have some fun with the idea. Of course it's not a likely scenario, it's funny though.

DudeGuyMan wrote:
A more salient question might be, how tame is the Terran biosphere in 40k? Can a Space Marine expect to get bitten by mosquitos while drilling? Are there rats in the barracks? Is there a lot of wilderness or is it Coruscant? If so, is there an "Coruscant underworld" sort of urban wilderness?


Terra from what I read is a Hive World (densely populated like Coruscant),strip mined to the point where vast cities and factories and military bases, along with the Europe-sized (or so I heard) palace for the God Emperor are the only things there besides the massive amounts of pollution. The oceans have apparently been boiled away because of the heat given off by the 100 trillion people living there (thus forcing water supply to come from other worlds). I dunno about mosquitoes, though I doubt it given there's no water supply other than the ones the Imperium forces get from elsewhere. As for rats, maybe. There's likely to be a lot given the shit conditions on your average Imperium planet. I doubt Holy Terra is all that different.
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Oni Koneko Damien
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 11:19am 

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Purple wrote:
That's not really important thou. Anyone who is anyone that actually matters (like say the high lords or the inquisition) are psyhers or have psychic protection of some sort. So the ones that actually effect things and matter are safe. And if Hive #3429 on Factory-World 48-Aleph or hell the entire Factory-World 48-Aleph and its star system just happen to vanish or get infected no one would really care. After all, worlds are lost and gained each day and no one gives a dam. It's the whole grimdark thing.

To put it this way. For the Thing it was the day it came into a brave new galaxy, infected trillions and took over hundreds of star systems. For the Imperium it was Tuesday.


Except that unlike other threats, the main problem with a Thing infestation is no one even knows it's happening. Sure, Hive #3429 of Factory World 48 Aleph may not be important, but several hundred thousand of those, making up a fair share of the manufacturing base of the Imperium would be. The Thing doesn't have to take over the High Lords or Psykers or whatever other things that, no matter how powerful they may be, only make up .001% of the Imperium's population. All it has to do is take over the 99.999% who aren't psychic juggernauts, then simply cut off all supply and power to the tiny percentage that actually present a threat. The elite of the Imperium may be powerful, but in the end a vast majority of that power still relies on the industrial support and manpower of the hundreds of billions of easily-infected average joe-grimdarks who follow them.

This is the same mistake that people kept making in the other thread: The Thing doesn't *want* to be seen, it most definitely doesn't want an open war. Until it knows it's in an advantageous position, it is perfectly content with infecting large amounts of nobodies that nobody will miss because it can still impersonate them perfectly afterward. As in the SW thread, even the few mistakes that the Thing might make during takeovers are likely to (at least initially) be mistaken for, say, Chaos takeovers or Genestealer attacks and not recognized as its own separate threat.
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Purple
 Post subject: Re: IoM vs The Thing
PostPosted: 2011-10-27 02:21pm 

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DudeGuyMan wrote:
Don't know a lot about 40k personally, just popping in to suggest that Zixinus go look at the other thread. No, the Thing does not agitate dogs. The dogs in the movie accepted the dog-Thing into their kennel quite peacably until it began to reveal itself.

Also, if the Thing manages to assimilate anyone who knows at least as much about that universe as a random forum denizen, it's going to have an idea of what the threats are, and isn't going to go near anyone who can wipe it out. It isn't going to start trying to eat anyone important until it's so deep into the ecosystems of so many planets that you'd have to Exterminatify the entire Empire to get rid of it.

Because it knows at least as much as you do about the universe you just dropped it in and it's not a fucking moron.

Since it you don't know 40K I'll inform you.
Good luck finding such a person outside of the Hight Lords of Terra or the head of the inquisition. Seriously, the average person in 40K is only told the bare minimum he or she needs to stay alive. This is especially true for things like chaos where knowing about it is quite enough to corrupt people. The average citizen of the Imperium only knows about the government levels directly above him, imperial propaganda and religion and what ever threat is currently trying to main, kill or burn him (not necessarily in that order).

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Except that unlike other threats, the main problem with a Thing infestation is no one even knows it's happening. Sure, Hive #3429 of Factory World 48 Aleph may not be important, but several hundred thousand of those, making up a fair share of the manufacturing base of the Imperium would be. The Thing doesn't have to take over the High Lords or Psykers or whatever other things that, no matter how powerful they may be, only make up .001% of the Imperium's population. All it has to do is take over the 99.999% who aren't psychic juggernauts, then simply cut off all supply and power to the tiny percentage that actually present a threat. The elite of the Imperium may be powerful, but in the end a vast majority of that power still relies on the industrial support and manpower of the hundreds of billions of easily-infected average joe-grimdarks who follow them.

This is the same mistake that people kept making in the other thread: The Thing doesn't *want* to be seen, it most definitely doesn't want an open war. Until it knows it's in an advantageous position, it is perfectly content with infecting large amounts of nobodies that nobody will miss because it can still impersonate them perfectly afterward. As in the SW thread, even the few mistakes that the Thing might make during takeovers are likely to (at least initially) be mistaken for, say, Chaos takeovers or Genestealer attacks and not recognized as its own separate threat.

The thing is, if it just takes over and simulates the normal work of the planet the IOM really won't care. The High Lords or indeed the Imperium will see no difference if millions of ThingGuardsmen with their ThingLasguns are dying for it instead of ordinary people. On the other hand, the rules of the Imperium are quite clear. A planet can do what ever to hell it wants as long as it pays its tithes and worships the emperor. If a planet is conquered by the thing and than proceeds not to send out millions of ThingGuardsmen with their ThingLasguns to serve the imperium than the Imperium will come knocking. After all that is what the Arbitres exist for.

Or are you seriously expecting a no limits situation where the Thing is newer detected until it infects something like 90% of the galaxy? Given the levels of investigation that go on in the Imperium for things like chaos I find that doubtful.
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