A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Simon_Jester
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:What? Is that a consequence from deploying a jury-rigged and improvised weapon? Wow, keep giving actions consequences, Ringo, and you may just convince us you’re a writer. Recoil energy is enough to lift a 747 off the ground, if only for a moment, and even with jacks, the crew lives in dread of getting flipped over when they fire.
Humorous story involving these lunatic things, from the same viewpoint character:

They fire their pack off, immediately before a nuclear weapon is used... 5-10 km away, as I recall. The crew's reaction:

"Wait, what was that funny bang at the end?"
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Forgothrax wrote:What's preventing Earth from hanging on to captured Posleen landers and C-Decks and using them for anti-lander purposes? Other than Ringo handing his characters the idiot ball to allow the ACS to take center stage. :banghead:
I'd settle for Earth hanging on to any construction facilities the Landers and C-Decs have to make weapons.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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For those who don't remember the late 90s/early noughts, Metal Storm was a hot new kid on the weapons design block at the time these books were written. The device that got the most media attention was the million rpm machine gun. That was something of a stunt and never took off in serious use. On the one hand the stacked ammunition concept really could achieve high cyclic rates of fire thanks to not having to worry about mechanical action and feeding. This let them put an already exceptional tens of thousands of rpm (for the fraction of a second that the ammo lasted, this was the cyclic and most certainly not sustainable rate of fire) through a single barrel. They got the million+ rpm by firing 36 barrels at the same time as a single weapon. The more practical devices are electronically controlled grenade launchers with 3 or 4 shots per barrel. Future Weapons describes it more enthusiastically. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXECU3YKMfI

As stated, metal storm stacked munition concept is based on stacking the rounds of ammunition end to end inside the gun barrel. Each tube here is supposed to have a hundred rounds of 105mm ammunition stacked end to end. Ask how long a 105mm round including propellent would reasonably be (hint), multiply by 100, then add enough length to the end that the first round has a useful amount of barrel to get shot through. Yes, you can stack over a hundred bullet equivalents end to end without looking like a total idiot. Try the same thing with 40mm grenades, to say nothing of 105mm shells, and suddenly you run out of space after only a few rounds. This here is basically tacking machine gun stats onto a tank cannon and pretending it still makes sense.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Vejut wrote:You probably can't really use that 20 feet of steel comment, I'd think. It doesn't say much about what shape or which way the feet were taken off, so it'd be pretty much a WAG. I mean, we could probably estimate it based on a 20 foot by 20 foot square of 3/4" STS (if I remember right, battleship decking/wall circa WWII, at least for the US), but it could just as easily be a foot wide scorch mark 20 feet long in thin engine grill plates, or given how logic defying the SheVas are every other way, a arbitrarily sized hole in 20 feet of RHA. First one is probably the most reasonable though. Plus there's the whole "maybe it was just blasted off, not actually vaporized" issue.

doing first one, but subbing mild steel, as I can't find STS specifically:
240 inchesx240 inchesx .75 inches= 43,200 in3
This site says density of .284 lbs/in3
12,268 lbs. call it 12,000.
same site, 2570F to melt, .122 BTU/lb/degree F specific heat, assume we start from room temperature, 3.6 million BTU
another 1.4 million BTU for the heat of fusion (From engineer's toolbox for iron)
Engineer's toolbox says the boiling point is 5198 degrees F, so another 2628 degrees, for another 3.8 million BTU
and then 2923.32 BTU/lb for heat of vaporization, adding a full 35 million BTU
So our total is 43.8 million BTU, or about 46.2 GJ. Odd we dump this much energy in, yet only see the adjacent room heat up a bit.
That's true, even with a given number, its too vague to really be useful. I appreciate the calcs all the same.
Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:What? Is that a consequence from deploying a jury-rigged and improvised weapon? Wow, keep giving actions consequences, Ringo, and you may just convince us you’re a writer. Recoil energy is enough to lift a 747 off the ground, if only for a moment, and even with jacks, the crew lives in dread of getting flipped over when they fire.
Humorous story involving these lunatic things, from the same viewpoint character:

They fire their pack off, immediately before a nuclear weapon is used... 5-10 km away, as I recall. The crew's reaction:

"Wait, what was that funny bang at the end?"
To be specific, it was a SheVa anti-lander round (so 10 kt) and 3 kilometers distant. Most of the crews actually didn't hear it, just one guy did and he was afraid they'd broken something important.

Another funny story Captain Chan tells is how she puked her second time firing one of the meemies. When asked about the first time, she admits she was knocked out. Several crew members get broken bones and everyone has some bruising.

Yeah, if your mobile weapons platform almost flips over/shakes apart when fired, and pulverizes the crew you have officially failed to make a mobile weapon platform.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Coalition wrote:
Forgothrax wrote:What's preventing Earth from hanging on to captured Posleen landers and C-Decks and using them for anti-lander purposes? Other than Ringo handing his characters the idiot ball to allow the ACS to take center stage. :banghead:
I'd settle for Earth hanging on to any construction facilities the Landers and C-Decs have to make weapons.
Especially once it turns out that C-Decs can produce antimatter. If I were in command, I'd want a couple, just as mobile antimatter factories.

Then again, this could conceivably be how they got domestic antimatter production at all.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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You find out in a later book that the Darhel confiscate or buy any posleen production equipment that gets found, to prevent mass production from breaking their hold on the galactic economy.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

And now on to SheVa. There is one part I didn't include, I wasn't quite sure how to qoute it besides transcribing half the chapter. A SheVa gets stuck, partially driven into the ground on a downward slope it can't back up out of. The solution? Pull the turrets off the Metal Storm tanks so they can wedge 6 Abrams chassis under the treads, lock them into place with brakes and let the SheVa back out over them. It works but pretty much destroys the chassis which at least tells us that you can fit a turretless Abrams under the treads.

The cheers of the Metal Storm crews as their vehicles are destroyed is faintly disturbing, but now Bun Bun has Metal Storm turrets and nowhere to place them. Hmmm...

SheVa:
"No, it's not good," Horner agreed. "The area that they are in actually has three SheVas; unfortunately all of them are under construction and none of them are armed; we're looking at losing them half built, which is four months production down the tubes.”
SheVa production facility at Shenandoah Valley. There are 3 SheVa being worked on at once, and SheVa construction probably takes ~8 months.
"ON THE WAAAAAAAAAY!" the gunner called and squeezed the trigger. The result felt like being inside a massive bell that had just been hit by a giant. The command center was heavily sound-proofed, but the result of firing wasn't so much "sound" as a vast presence that rang through their bodies, shook the massive structure of the tank like a house made of straw and vibrated every surface. It was the most overwhelming, frightening and invigorating feeling he had ever experienced; like he truly was controlling Shiva, the God of Destruction.
More SheVa firing, this time from the perspective of the crew.
This was the point where most rounds would have detonated their antimatter charge. However, as Kitteket had pointed out, the rounds had a minimum arming distance of six hundred meters. What happened instead is that about halfway through the ship, the containment vessel shattered. The result, from the outside, was very like an antimatter explosion, but in reality it was a very fast flash-fire.

Minimum arming distance for SheVa rounds, 600 meters.

"Reactors two and three just went offline," Indy called. She unstrapped and headed for the hatch. "I doubt this is going to be a one-woman job."

"We're way down on speed, sir!" Reeves called. He had the throttle all the way open, but the SheVa was barely moving. "Under ten miles an hour!"
So, I guess they can normally go faster than 10 mph, since this is what they’re reduced to with half their reactors dead.
"Roger, sir," the gunner replied with a gulp. "Come on, Schmoo, find us another firing position."

"There's one by Fulchertown," the driver said, checking his map. "But it will mean running over a bunch of houses."

"You afraid of getting 'em stuck in our treads?" the gunner asked sarcastically.

"No . . . it's just that . . ." Schmoo looked up and over his shoulder to where the gunner was grinning. "Never mind. I've been trying to stay in the woods so we wouldn't run people over."

"Anybody that's still here deserves to be run over."
These are the same people who call infantry ‘crunchies.’ Just thought you ought to know that.

"SON OF A BITCH!" Pruitt shouted as all the viewscreens went black then flickered back on. "What in the hell?!"

The western valley of the Gap had a towering mushroom cloud over it and fires had started in every direction. The devastation area was wider than that from the SheVa explosion and there were no landers visible at all.

"Catastrophic kill!" Major Mitchell said. "Yeeeha! Get us the hell out of here, Schmoo!"
"What in the hell caused it, sir?" Pruitt asked as the shockwave hit. "Whoa big fella!"
"Posleen ships use antimatter as an energy source," Indy said. "You probably managed to penetrate their fuel magazine. I've seen the schematics for them; they're hard to hit and even harder to penetrate. Congratulations. But we've lost some systems from the EMP. Nothing major; most of our stuff is hardened and the EMP really wasn't all that high."

"A couple more of those and we won't have to worry about any landers," Pruitt said, patting his control panel. "Good Bun-Bun, good rabbit. EAT ANTIMATTER, Posleen-Boy!"
SheVa can, with some luck and/or skill, penetrate antimatter containment on a C-Dec. The SheVa is also somewhat vulnerable to EMP, or at least its sensors are. Most of it is hardened, which makes sense in a nuke-firing tank.
Reeves engaged the drive and threw the multiton tank up the 30-degree slope, leveling it out at the top.
SheVa can climb 30-degree slope. It’ll pull off more extreme maneuvers yet, but I’m half-surprised it can do this much.
The SheVa gun had not been designed to climb mountains and a couple of times he was pretty sure they were just going to go tumbling back down a slope; once just west of Chestnut Gap when they had to ascend a ten-foot bluff while already on a very steep slope and another time when the mountainside was just a bit steeper than it looked on the map. The SheVa often felt like it was going straight up and knowing that there was a multiton gun and two stories of steel above you, pulling the gun over and backwards, was pretty nerve-wracking. It was almost worse the few times that they had had to straddle a ravine with one giant tread half supported on either side; the undercarriage would creak and groan, sounding like it was going to shatter at any moment.
Some more extreme maneuvers.
"What happens when I fire this thing?!" Pruitt yelled, locking in a round.
"I don't know," Indy said tightly. "We're on a forty degree slope, sliding downward in max reverse, firing sideways at about forty miles per hour. We're not designed to do any of those at all!"

"Shit," Mitchell muttered.

"I'm losing it here, sir!" Reeves called. "We're headed for a bluff!"

"TARGET! Lamprey, two thousand meters!" Pruitt sang out.

"Danger close!" Mitchell called, indicating that the explosion of the gun's own penetrator could potentially damage it; the minimum recommended distance for a SheVa to engage was over three thousand meters. "Fire!"
A few things the SheVa wasn’t designed to do. 3 Km recommended safe distance for SheVa fire.
"Target C-Dec! TWELVE HUNDRED METERS! TOO CLOSE!"
"FIRE!"

"TOO CLOSE!"

"IT'S KNIFE-FIGHTING RANGE! WE'RE BUN-BUN! FIRE THE DAMNED GUN!"

The round tracked straight and true into the top of the ship, actually punching out the back side before exploding.

The detonation was the equivalent of ten thousand tons of TNT, but both it and the flash of gaseous uranium and spalling would have been survivable by the C-Dec; the explosion wasn't actually in contact and wasn't at a particularly vital or vulnerable point. However, the compression wave was above the lander. And that drove it downward into the hard and unyielding ground. C-Decs were designed to survive much, but slamming into North Carolina mountains at over a hundred miles per hour was not one of them. Internal compartmentalization gave way throughout the ship. Not from the acceleration, but from the deceleration.

A ten pounds per square inch compression wave, strong enough to damage or destroy heavily constructed buildings, also washed across the MetalStorm tracks. But compared to the damage they took from firing their own weapons . . .
10 kt again, C-Dec destroyed mostly by slamming into the ground at better than 100 mph (160 kph.) The incident with the Metal Storm tanks not noticing a nuke.
Reeves carefully ran the motors up to ten percent and then engaged the transmission. The SheVa had originally been designed without the latter system, but it was added late in the game in recognition that sometimes "throwing it into gear" was the best way to handle a situation.
SheVa not originally designed with a transmission, but one is later added.
Major Ryan stepped off the SheVa as it began the complicated process of crossing the Tuckasegee River without killing anyone.

They had run into the rear ranks of stragglers near Dills Gap and many of them had latched on to the SheVa. The gun had four "loading points" and each of them was now covered with soldiers.
SheVa has four loading points for taking on fresh ammo or other supplies. In extremis, these can hold a lot of people.
"Just be glad it didn't hit the reactors."

"Yeah," the commander said with a laugh. "Or the track. I'd hate to have to break track on this thing."

"Oh, it's no trouble at all; you just call up a CONTAC team," the warrant said, breaking the nut free. "There's a reason that there's a battalion in a SheVa repair team. A battalion of engineers and three really big cranes."
The CONTAC team mentioned before, SheVa repair crew. A battalion (300-1200) of engineers and three cranes.
"Sir," Major Ryan said again. "Bun-Bun has four area denial rounds available in his reload team, two from his reloads and two from SheVa Fourteen."
Standard reload group carries two area-denial rounds.
The area effect weapons had similarities to the anti-lander penetrators and differences. Since the gun remained a smooth-bore and the round therefore had to be fin-stabilized, they were discarding sabot. But they were thicker in cross section than the penetrators and flew at a lower velocity. Last, but not least, since they were not penetrators, they were made out of simple carbon steel. Since the metal they were made out of was going to be distributed as a fine dust, better to have it composed of materials the human body could metabolize.

The round flew out of the tube in a river of fire, dropped its sabots and headed for Balsam Gap.
Comparison between AD and anti-lander rounds.

"The University of Tennessee has both a SheVa gun enhancement testbed program and a nuclear, antimatter rather, rounds program."

"So . . . they can fire?" the President asked. "Antimatter is better than nukes, right? I mean, their fire can reach the Gap? And it's a better, a cleaner, system?"

"Possibly," Horner answered. "I'd . . . Both of the systems are experimental, ma'am. And their . . . area denial round has never been field-tested. It's also . . . rather large, a very heavy warhead; you really would prefer not to know the megatonnage. The first time I fire something, I don't want the price of failure being the loss of the entire Cumberland Valley."

"Oh."

Horner shrugged at her expression. "I suppose this is what I get for letting rednecks play with antimatter; they just don't know when to say 'Okay, that's 'nough!' Instead, it's always 'Hey, y'all! Watch this!' I only became . . . apprised of the size of the round when we went looking for something to open up the Gap. I've since ordered a 'reevaluation' of the program.
Oh, so that’s what the area-denial antimatter rounds for the SheVa are. Fixed SheVa test gun at Tennessee U. Am I the only one who thinks the involvement of Tennessee U and ‘a bunch of rednecks’ explains so much about the SheVa program?
"And close," Pruitt said over the intercom. "Although some of it had better not be too close; my AD rounds are 100kts. The explosions in the mountains were lovetaps compared to that."
Yield of SheVa area-denial rounds. Equivalent to W76, not the biggest nuclear weapon, but I think it’s in the top fifteen.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Connor MacLeod »

So C-Decs went from being destroyed by a quarter kilo in Hymn to being demolished by a 4 kt nuke in gust front to tanking a 10 kt nuke in Hell's Faire. Unless distances involved are quite a bit different in every case (or efficiency, in the case of Hymn since its not a proper bomb) this is another case of Ringo Math.

stuff on fourth generation nuclear weapons although its much more recent (earliest I've found is 2005 or so) the concept of 4th gen nukes has been around longer, and I know antimatter has been considered as a means of triggering nuclear reactions for at least as long.

Of particular interest was the 5th Chapter, dealing with nuclear shaped charges and nuclear-propelled projectiles.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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I just remember the line when the commander finds out about the University of Tennessee program;

"You have eighty kilograms of antimatter on MY planet?!"
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by RecklessPrudence »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I just remember the line when the commander finds out about the University of Tennessee program;

"You have eighty kilograms of antimatter on MY planet?!"
When I first read that line, all I could think of were these two Schlock strips.

Although later, I couldn't help but think of these two. It's been awhile, but from the numbers stated in the Schlock strip about Fuller's soap I'm assuming the 'eighty kilograms' figure is in Ringo's work is that of the actual antimatter, not the carbon nanobottles?

How did they even make that much antimatter, especially unnoticed by the - laughably incompetent - authorities? I thought antimatter took massive amounts of power to produce? And doesn't Ringo's earth have about the same power infrastructure as ours? Where'd they get the damn power? Let alone with noone wondering about all the electricity that the university is using all of a sudden?

That may be explained in the book. Like I said, haven't read them in a while.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:You find out in a later book that the Darhel confiscate or buy any posleen production equipment that gets found, to prevent mass production from breaking their hold on the galactic economy.
That sounds like something they'd do.
Connor wrote:So C-Decs went from being destroyed by a quarter kilo in Hymn to being demolished by a 4 kt nuke in gust front to tanking a 10 kt nuke in Hell's Faire. Unless distances involved are quite a bit different in every case (or efficiency, in the case of Hymn since its not a proper bomb) this is another case of Ringo Math.
The quarter-kilo of antimatter was flush against the hull, the 4 kt was from a discussion about the C-Dec in Hymn. That broke the ship in half. As for 'tanking' a SheVa round, the closest thing I can think of is the time when they went tobogganing. In that case, the shot went in one side, came out the other, then detonated a few hundred meters later when it reached arming distance. At which point, the ship got slammed into the ground hard enough to crush it like an empty beer can.
Connor wrote:stuff on fourth generation nuclear weapons although its much more recent (earliest I've found is 2005 or so) the concept of 4th gen nukes has been around longer, and I know antimatter has been considered as a means of triggering nuclear reactions for at least as long.

Of particular interest was the 5th Chapter, dealing with nuclear shaped charges and nuclear-propelled projectiles.
Like I said, it makes a lot more sense if you consider the politicos who maintain launch authority being too scared of emulating China's fall and irradiating their own lands. Sort of like in WWII there were several german officers who refused to destroy bridges and railways leading into the country even as they were invaded, because they'd need them when they went back on the offensive.

Sadly, high leadership having an extra scoop of self-delusion with their breakfast cereal isn't really unrealistic or unprecendented.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I just remember the line when the commander finds out about the University of Tennessee program;

"You have eighty kilograms of antimatter on MY planet?!"
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I found the section on the U-Tenn antimatter program. Apparently the Indowwy method of microencapsulation for storage is sohon field dependent (like using the force to defy physics) so one physicist hit on the idea of storing antimatter one atom at a time inside a fullerene. It took them the loss of three experimental encapsulation facilities before they figured it out in facility four.

The problem lay in breaking the fullerenes, which took just about as much energy as it released, so they developed a quantity of 'hyperfullerene' that would chain-react when ignited. That meant that what they were producing during the war functioned ONLY as an explosive, not as a fuel, one that emitted the full spectrum of radiation. The thing is, once they figured out how to do it maintaining production was relatively cheap and it would be better than shutting down production.

That means that it only functioned as an area denial weapon, which led the doctor who created the process to design an 'Antimatter Cluster Bomb', a phrase which should tighten every orifice in your body. As described:
"The system consists of fifty-five sub-projectiles with an Indowy initiator in each. After firing, the system reaches its target point and begins to spread projectiles. It doesn't just drop them, which would cause massive overlap, but lays them down during its flight. Each projectile has slowing fins. These have been shown to not "trip" Posleen defensive systems. This system lets all the projectiles attain complimentary altitudes. At a preprogrammed height above ground, the Indowy containment field releases a burst of antiprotons into the fullerene matrix which then sustains a rapid chain reaction."
The effects:
"The footprint is thirty-five miles deep, fifteen miles across. Its the equivalent of a one hundred ten megaton bomb, but with significantly different gross effects. For example, the thermal pulse is equivalent to a two megaton bomb."

This bomb was built entirely on his own initiative, without direction or oversight, because "I thought it might come in handy."

And as to how much...
"As of yesterday, excepting the material in the bomb, we have approximately one hundred and forty kilos."
"Of Hyperfullerene?"
"No, we generally refer to it in terms of anti-hydrogen atomic mass rather than the..."
"You have one hundred and forty kilos of antimatter sitting around on my planet???"
"I thought it would come in handy."
"Sure, for refueling Ninth Fleet!"
[/quote]

Ah, crazy doctors. Is there anything you can't do? Oh, and that cluster bomb is sitting in a closet in one of the underground research bunkers being watched by a few grad students. Not even a locking door. Its also armed, without a safety initiation or positive action lockout.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Raxmei »

I crunched a few quick numbers on a M179 medium antilander system. As far as a I can tell the gun would have to be at least 200 feet long and weigh well over 100 tons. Basically, since the ammunition load of 100 rounds per barrel is stored inside the barrel the barrel cannot be less than 100 times the length of one round of ammunition. The gun is (very loosely) based on the Royal Ordance L7 105x607mm gun and is stated to have about the same muzzle energy. 607mm actually refers to the dimensions of the cartridge case, its actual rounds are longer. Anyway, 600mm is in the right ballpark for the length of the penetrator itself and the metal storm stacks probably packed them so the sabots are stuffed with propellant or something. If you did try to make the rounds much shorter you'd lose propellant and get increasingly stubby darts. 607mm is about 2 feet, multiply by 100 and you have a gun 200 feet long. The L7 gun is 19.3 feet long and weighs 1.4 tons. Make it ten times longer and multiply by twelve barrels. Now mount this object to a vehicle that is 30 feet long and weighs 70 tons.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yep. That got screwed up...

Although if you just pare down the number of rounds per barrel of the MetalStorm system, you get something less dumb- and it's all the more plausible that it wouldn't do squat to a lander.
Ahriman238 wrote:And now on to SheVa. There is one part I didn't include, I wasn't quite sure how to qoute it besides transcribing half the chapter. A SheVa gets stuck, partially driven into the ground on a downward slope it can't back up out of. The solution? Pull the turrets off the Metal Storm tanks so they can wedge 6 Abrams chassis under the treads, lock them into place with brakes and let the SheVa back out over them. It works but pretty much destroys the chassis which at least tells us that you can fit a turretless Abrams under the treads.
Or, at any rate, can fit them under the angle where the track meets the ground, possibly after digging out a bit of rock to make room. Abrams chassis are pretty low to the ground; the entire tank is designed to be as low-slung as possible for a 70-ton beast.
These are the same people who call infantry ‘crunchies.’ Just thought you ought to know that.
It would be physically impossible to operate SheVa without a pretty liberal attitude towards collateral damage- their main mission is to kill incredibly powerful enemy units, using tactical nuclear weapons as needed. Physically moving them around in a combat zone to respond to any unforeseen contingency would crush a huge amount of territory, too. Property damage is unavoidable. Civilian casualties are likely, if any civilians haven't evacuated the area already.
Reeves engaged the drive and threw the multiton tank up the 30-degree slope, leveling it out at the top.
SheVa can climb 30-degree slope. It’ll pull off more extreme maneuvers yet, but I’m half-surprised it can do this much.
...:o

Ditto.
Oh, so that’s what the area-denial antimatter rounds for the SheVa are. Fixed SheVa test gun at Tennessee U. Am I the only one who thinks the involvement of Tennessee U and ‘a bunch of rednecks’ explains so much about the SheVa program?
Theoretically. More probably, by know Tennessee U. and other institutions in the Posleen-free parts of the US will contain experts from all over the country, evacuated when it was clear that their current positions could no longer be held reliably and that their technical expertise would have to be moved somewhere they could work without getting eaten.

But you still get redneck jokes. :D
Ahriman238 wrote:The quarter-kilo of antimatter was flush against the hull, the 4 kt was from a discussion about the C-Dec in Hymn. That broke the ship in half. As for 'tanking' a SheVa round, the closest thing I can think of is the time when they went tobogganing. In that case, the shot went in one side, came out the other, then detonated a few hundred meters later when it reached arming distance. At which point, the ship got slammed into the ground hard enough to crush it like an empty beer can.
Reminds me of cases where cruisers and battleships would fire armor-piercing rounds at destroyers and just have the shell go straight through without hitting anything solid enough to set off the impact fuze, since said fuze was designed to survive ramming through several inches of armor plate at Mach Two or so. Destroyers could survive a surprising amount of battleship fire that way... until a round hit the engines or something.

Also, a quarter-kilogram of antimatter is about ten megatons in its own right. A little of that stuff goes a long way... If you factor in whatever the Indowy use to encapsulate their antimatter, it goes down, but it's still vastly more energetic than anything short of strategic nuclear weapons.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Raxmei »

Simon_Jester wrote:Yep. That got screwed up...

Although if you just pare down the number of rounds per barrel of the MetalStorm system, you get something less dumb- and it's all the more plausible that it wouldn't do squat to a lander.
Yeah, you could do that. Like I said the more practical implementations of MetalStorm had only four or so rounds per barrel. Of course you are still left with a requirement to mount a whole lot of pretty heavy cannon barrels and you'd need to accomodate something like ten feet of recoil space but it could at least be physically possible. The hefty recoil and barrel pressure of full size cannon might pose an unusual problem here since the lower rounds in the stack have to absorb the kick of their predecessors. You might notice that MetalStorm's existing products are 40mm grenade launchers and 12 gauge shotguns, comparatively low pressure systems.

If you really needed a giant volley gun but didn't want to flip your tank over with its own recoil the way of doing it that springs to mind is an array of fuckall huge recoilless guns inspired by that used by the Ontos (historically 6x105mm rifles on a vehicle weighing less than 10 tons). It'd produce a terrifying backblast and still fail to harm Posleen landers but it should at least be possible to build and fire.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

They're hoping for the muzzle velocity of 105mm guns (non-recoilless). They might have experimented with HEAT rounds or something, of course, and hoped for better results out of that than I'd expect.

One way to revamp the design to get the desired result would be to mount non-recoilless 105mm gun barrels in such quantity that it damn near does flip the tank over, possibly incorporating some kind of bleeding-edge technology to absorb recoil which... doesn't work reliably.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Raxmei wrote:I crunched a few quick numbers on a M179 medium antilander system. As far as a I can tell the gun would have to be at least 200 feet long and weigh well over 100 tons. Basically, since the ammunition load of 100 rounds per barrel is stored inside the barrel the barrel cannot be less than 100 times the length of one round of ammunition. The gun is (very loosely) based on the Royal Ordance L7 105x607mm gun and is stated to have about the same muzzle energy. 607mm actually refers to the dimensions of the cartridge case, its actual rounds are longer. Anyway, 600mm is in the right ballpark for the length of the penetrator itself and the metal storm stacks probably packed them so the sabots are stuffed with propellant or something. If you did try to make the rounds much shorter you'd lose propellant and get increasingly stubby darts. 607mm is about 2 feet, multiply by 100 and you have a gun 200 feet long. The L7 gun is 19.3 feet long and weighs 1.4 tons. Make it ten times longer and multiply by twelve barrels. Now mount this object to a vehicle that is 30 feet long and weighs 70 tons.
Ringo math strikes again! So we need a barrel the same length, if only a fraction the width of a SheVa barrel. Could that even hold together? 200 ft long and 4 inches wide, without laying it on the ground or supporting it anywhere but at the base?

Well, it makes mincemeat out of the tenaral, which puts an upper limit on their armoring. More to the point, if the tenaral don't have the autotargeting capability, and operate as seen here, in a group far ahead of the main thrust, suddenly SAM becomes an option again. :twisted:
simon wrote:It would be physically impossible to operate SheVa without a pretty liberal attitude towards collateral damage- their main mission is to kill incredibly powerful enemy units, using tactical nuclear weapons as needed. Physically moving them around in a combat zone to respond to any unforeseen contingency would crush a huge amount of territory, too. Property damage is unavoidable. Civilian casualties are likely, if any civilians haven't evacuated the area already.
Isn't the liberal attitude towards collateral damage generally FUCK NO!!? But yeah, the 400 meter wide trail of devastation whereever these things go is pretty noticeable. And difficult to navigate, even for an Abrams that sticks to the path of their treads (rather than the center that leaves everything less than 8 meters high standing.) There's a part in Hell's Faire I just read where a general says a SheVa can't use a particular pass, because he has to move infantry and armor through it in the near future.
simon wrote:
Reeves engaged the drive and threw the multiton tank up the 30-degree slope, leveling it out at the top.
SheVa can climb 30-degree slope. It’ll pull off more extreme maneuvers yet, but I’m half-surprised it can do this much.
...

Ditto.
I know, right? Those must be some engines on the thing.
simon wrote:Theoretically. More probably, by know Tennessee U. and other institutions in the Posleen-free parts of the US will contain experts from all over the country, evacuated when it was clear that their current positions could no longer be held reliably and that their technical expertise would have to be moved somewhere they could work without getting eaten.

But you still get redneck jokes.
I have three words for you: Antimatter. Cluster. Bombs.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by phongn »

Ahriman238 wrote:These are the same people who call infantry ‘crunchies.’ Just thought you ought to know that.
"Crunchies" is an actual nickname that tankers use for infantry. For something the size of a SheVa, pretty much anything'd be a crunchy to them.
Isn't the liberal attitude towards collateral damage generally FUCK NO!!?
In this sort of total war? Probably not.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Ringo math strikes again! So we need a barrel the same length, if only a fraction the width of a SheVa barrel. Could that even hold together? 200 ft long and 4 inches wide, without laying it on the ground or supporting it anywhere but at the base?
No. Well, not without elaborate cantilevering (look at pictures of the Paris Gun for an example).

Realistically, I doubt Ringo visualized the barrels as 200 feet long; he just didn't think through how long each 105mm round was. It makes more sense to picture the weapon as having only 10 or 12 rounds stacked up (which gives individual barrels that aren't totally ridiculous by artillery standards).
Isn't the liberal attitude towards collateral damage generally FUCK NO!!?
Heh. Original sense of the word "liberal," i.e. "generous, and with few restrictions." Not "liberal" in the bizarre mutant sense of the word that, say, John Ringo might understand it in.
simon wrote:Theoretically. More probably, by know Tennessee U. and other institutions in the Posleen-free parts of the US will contain experts from all over the country, evacuated when it was clear that their current positions could no longer be held reliably and that their technical expertise would have to be moved somewhere they could work without getting eaten.

But you still get redneck jokes.
I have three words for you: Antimatter. Cluster. Bombs.
The idea is not totally unreasonable- if you really want something nuked, with extreme prejudice.

Would an antimatter unitary warhead of the same yield be any better? Talk about your earth-shattering kabooms.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

No, a single warhead would be WORSE, because you'd be concentrating the damage and radiatioin in a smaller area.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I'll get back on my high horse about nukes and SheVa again, but it did occur to me: was there ever any mention of them using that fancy anti-friction coating they use on the DU teardrops to stop them vaporizing in the atmosphere on anything else? I'd think that it would work great on the inside of gunbarrels for alot of weapons - it might actually improve their performance quite a bit.

Also, can I start arguing about the penetration issue again now that we have a SHeVA round overpenetrationg a C-Dec even if it is at close range? :P
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Considering they used SheVa rounds to burst mountain peaks to get over a ridge, I'd say you're fine.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:No, a single warhead would be WORSE, because you'd be concentrating the damage and radiatioin in a smaller area.
Exactly.
Connor MacLeod wrote:I'll get back on my high horse about nukes and SheVa again, but it did occur to me: was there ever any mention of them using that fancy anti-friction coating they use on the DU teardrops to stop them vaporizing in the atmosphere on anything else? I'd think that it would work great on the inside of gunbarrels for alot of weapons - it might actually improve their performance quite a bit.
Might well be used and yet not mentioned. But it's a great idea for limiting barrel wear, assuming it isn't corroded by exposure to propellant fumes.
Also, can I start arguing about the penetration issue again now that we have a SHeVA round overpenetrationg a C-Dec even if it is at close range? :P
Naturally.

Of course, it's strongly implied that SheVa rounds don't have trouble penetrating Posleen ship armor; the problem is that knocking a hole straight through a C-Dec with an 8" sabot round isn't necessarily going to kill it, because you didn't necessarily hit anything important enough to knock the ship out of action. Hence the nuclear charge in the shell, because by nature the SheVa gun is supposed to be a weapon you only have to fire once to put any single enemy ship permanently out of action. If you didn't obliterate it with that one shot, you probably won't get a second.

The Lampreys are more vulnerable than that, or at least have less internal compartmentalization- which may be inevitable, since they are landers and presumably have lots of onboard storage of munitions and big open troop assembly bays which hurts their survivability when shot by weapons capable of piercing the hull.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

What would be really nice is if they knew enough about posleen tech to target the onboard antimatter with their initial shot.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

That's tricky if the target is moving, if there's any uncertainty about point of aim, if you're firing at ranges of ten or twenty kilometers... all of which are possible, even likely.
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