WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Coop D'etat »

Even if Wanda isn't a total monster, she still was doing crimes you'd do serious time for in a contempory criminal justice system.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Broomstick »

Gandalf wrote: 2021-03-13 08:33am
Broomstick wrote: 2021-03-10 04:22pm
If the actions of a particular person spur you to do something bad then you are responsible for how you respond to that crisis. There's a difference between, say, harming or killing someone in self defense but stopping when the threat is over vs. continue to hurt/kill someone long past the point they're a threat. The first is considered self-defense and is generally not considered a crime. The second is murder and tried as such.
So where do you put those people who snap and go on a spree killing? Or on this case, a spree mind rape?
"Spree", to me, implies pre-meditation. Wanda did not set out to create this horrific little nightmare. I agree she should have ended is a hell of a lot sooner instead of going into denial, but in my mind there is a significant difference between someone who is not aware of what their actions will lead to vs. someone deliberately setting out to cause harm.
Gandalf wrote: 2021-03-13 08:33am
Broomstick wrote: 2021-03-10 04:22pmAs already pointed out, Wanda Maximoff did some horrific things, but none of it was pre-meditated and she stopped of her own accord once it was made inescapably clear to her that continuing Westfield was going to be torture for the people living there. That is very different than someone planning to commit torture/murder, stalking a victim, kidnapping said victim, torturing the victim, killing the victim, then continuing to do bad things to the corpse while planning to do it all over again.
Uh, no she didn't. She started to turn it off, saw the family dissolve and turned it back on.
And eventually turned it back off again. From the point she knew she was hurting others until she let the town go yes she was being a bad person. No one here is arguing otherwise.
Gandalf wrote: 2021-03-13 08:33am Fun fact: "Not as bad as some other people" can still be a total monster. Even if Hayward was eighty Hitlers, and Harkness was four hundred Dahmers, Wanda still ran a mind rape colony, and the most charitable interpretation is that she didn't know of the torturous aspect of her mind rape.
No one is saying otherwise - we all agree that Wanda did a terrible, horrible thing.

What, exactly, is your problem with stating that someone like Harkness was worse or Hayward was a contributing factor? None of that makes Wanda an innocent. "Less bad" is not the same as "innocent" or "bears no responsibility" or "shouldn't be punished".
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Ralin »

Why are you guys acting like Gandalf is arguing in good faith and not doing his usual smug "SO I GUESS THAT MEANS" troll routine?
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Broomstick »

I dunno - trying to get in my weekly quota of banging my head against a wall?
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by LadyTevar »

Ralin wrote: 2021-03-13 11:06pm Why are you guys acting like Gandalf is arguing in good faith and not doing his usual smug "SO I GUESS THAT MEANS" troll routine?
If he IS doing this just to troll, I would suggest he sits down and shuts up.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by LadyTevar »

I watched the "Assembled" special detailing how they shot the show. Really liked the life audience, the way they tried to do it in one smooth take (aside from stop/start to get the effects in).

I still want a good look at Agnes' outfit, to see if I can make me one for Halloween. The pleating would be a BITCH, but so damn worth it.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Gandalf »

LadyTevar wrote: 2021-03-14 02:34pm If he IS doing this just to troll, I would suggest he sits down and shuts up.
I can assure you I'm not. Owing to what I'm finding is a side effect of being neurodivergent (Happy Neurodiversity Awareness Week!) this is unfortunately the most comfortable way to communicate concepts at times. Unfortunately this has the side effect of shitting some people up the wall, no matter how hard I try to do otherwise.

I've apologised before, and I'm happy to do again if necessary.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Darth Yan »

Gandalf wrote: 2021-03-13 08:33am
Broomstick wrote: 2021-03-10 04:22pm
If the actions of a particular person spur you to do something bad then you are responsible for how you respond to that crisis. There's a difference between, say, harming or killing someone in self defense but stopping when the threat is over vs. continue to hurt/kill someone long past the point they're a threat. The first is considered self-defense and is generally not considered a crime. The second is murder and tried as such.
So where do you put those people who snap and go on a spree killing? Or on this case, a spree mind rape?
As already pointed out, Wanda Maximoff did some horrific things, but none of it was pre-meditated and she stopped of her own accord once it was made inescapably clear to her that continuing Westfield was going to be torture for the people living there. That is very different than someone planning to commit torture/murder, stalking a victim, kidnapping said victim, torturing the victim, killing the victim, then continuing to do bad things to the corpse while planning to do it all over again.
Uh, no she didn't. She started to turn it off, saw the family dissolve and turned it back on.
That's why Wanda Maximoff is a better person than Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Doesn't mean Wanda is a good person, just not as bad as some other people.

Now, it would have been better if Wanda dismantled the hex as soon as she realized it wasn't all fantasy and she was controlling other people. I think we can all agree on that. But Wanda is far from perfect.

Agatha not only contributed to Wanda doing terrible things to other people by manipulating her, lying to her, and withholding information, we know she has killed AND she mind-raped and controlled at the very least Ralph Bohner, but in her case she did it knowingly and deliberately, with no regard to the pain she would be causing that person. Wanda has the mitigating factor of ignorance. Agatha does not. Therefore, Agatha is a worse human being.

Hayward did break the law, break the Sokovia Accords, cause a lot of pain to a grieving woman, then continued to poke and prod and provoke. How culpable is he for Westfield? Well, I don't think he had any clue Wanda was going to respond as she did. But when the hex happened he did nothing to help those inside, instead, he tried to profit and further his own plans while completely disregarding the welfare of those inside. Seems to be at the very least reckless endangerment on that one.
Fun fact: "Not as bad as some other people" can still be a total monster. Even if Hayward was eighty Hitlers, and Harkness was four hundred Dahmers, Wanda still ran a mind rape colony, and the most charitable interpretation is that she didn't know of the torturous aspect of her mind rape.
Darth Yan wrote: 2021-03-10 03:45pm No.

As Revan pointed out there are degrees. Wanda acting on instinct and pain is not the same as consciously torturing people. Notably Wanda DOES ultimately do the right thing in the end.
So if they accidentally did it, the blame is gone? Cool.
It's lesser than if it's done on purpose. In Hulk Ross lying to Bruce about what the formula was directly caused him to experiment on himself, which led to the Hulk's existence. Hayward's similar in that if he had just let Wanda take the body and have a funeral none of this would have happened
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Batman »

Um-in 'Hulk' Bruce didn't experiment on anybody, his Dad experimented on him and the eventual and inevitable gamma exposure that led to him becoming the Hulk was a complete accident. Besides, that movie isn't even part of the MCU
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Gandalf »

Darth Yan wrote: 2021-03-14 10:17pm It's lesser than if it's done on purpose. In Hulk Ross lying to Bruce about what the formula was directly caused him to experiment on himself, which led to the Hulk's existence. Hayward's similar in that if he had just let Wanda take the body and have a funeral none of this would have happened
I can't speak to the Hulk part of that statement because I haven"t seen the Bana or Norton ones in over a decade, but I think you've highlighted a massive missed opportunity on a part of the show; why her reflexive action was to make Maximoff Dystopia.

We know why Hulk does what he does. It lets us see the difference between man and monster. Where Banner is awesome, Hulk is a scary force of nature. We know the relationship. For this, they could have linked it to a scary upbringing in a failed state, where survival instincts need to be sharp. Those instincts combined with superpowers created a monster, but the few dots just aren't there in the show.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Darth Yan »

Batman wrote: 2021-03-14 10:46pm Um-in 'Hulk' Bruce didn't experiment on anybody, his Dad experimented on him and the eventual and inevitable gamma exposure that led to him becoming the Hulk was a complete accident. Besides, that movie isn't even part of the MCU

In the 2008 movie Ross told Bruce that their attempt to recreate the Captain America Serum was for something else. This led Bruce to believe he could test it on himself, which combined with the Gamma Radiation led to him becoming the Hulk. In short the only reason Bruce became the Hulk was because Ross lied to him about what they were working on.

You're thinking the 03 movie.
Gandalf wrote: 2021-03-14 11:19pm
I can't speak to the Hulk part of that statement because I haven"t seen the Bana or Norton ones in over a decade, but I think you've highlighted a massive missed opportunity on a part of the show; why her reflexive action was to make Maximoff Dystopia.

We know why Hulk does what he does. It lets us see the difference between man and monster. Where Banner is awesome, Hulk is a scary force of nature. We know the relationship. For this, they could have linked it to a scary upbringing in a failed state, where survival instincts need to be sharp. Those instincts combined with superpowers created a monster, but the few dots just aren't there in the show.
Don't we? Wanda's past is shown in detail, and it's made clear she's trying to escape her grief by retreating to fantasy. The problem is that because of her powers this goes far worse than normal.

Same thing with the other members of the Avengers. Tony has deep seated daddy issues and in Age of Ultron he sees the vision of everyone dying because he wasn't strong enough; his guilt over Ultron also led to him supporting registration and his need to help save the world also motivated him (if anything he cares TOO MUCH). Thor we see as the arrogant prince before Earth teaches him humility. Black Panther got a complete Arc in Civil War (seeing that Bucky was innocent and that the true killer was motivated by the same rage and pain taught him the folly of revenge).
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

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Enjoy
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Batman »

This has got what, exactly, to do with WandaVision?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Agent Fisher »

On second glance, nothing and should not have been posted in the thread.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Ralin »

Oh my fucking god you guys, I finally figured it out last night. Wandavision. Wanda+Vision. Vision is the name of the android lover she's mourning. THAT'S BRILLIANT! IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE TITLE!

Now I HAVE to get around to watching this show!
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by LadyTevar »

Ralin wrote: 2021-03-19 01:42am Oh my fucking god you guys, I finally figured it out last night. Wandavision. Wanda+Vision. Vision is the name of the android lover she's mourning. THAT'S BRILLIANT! IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE TITLE!

Now I HAVE to get around to watching this show!
*patpatpat* Yes, Ralin, you do. It's damn good.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Crazedwraith »

Not regretting getting Disney+ : finally saw TROS yesterday, watched Falcon and four episodes of this today.

Oddly the 4th episode with Rambeau is where it really gets engrossing. And I'm glad I'm binge watching rather than week on week.

Still I anticipate my cheif complaint being where the heck was Clint, Sam or Rhodey when Wanda dropped off the grid and took over a town. Post-avengimg support and friendships seem non-existent which us sad.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Batman »

Well we don't know how much time happened between the UnBlip and WandaVision (far as I know anyway) so maybe they're still busy sorting out a world where half of humanity was gone for 5 years and suddenly is back?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Crazedwraith »

The SWORD Director mentions the time frame when Rambeau reports in. 3 weeks I think?
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Batman »

Not really a lot of time to unfuck a mess this big
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Solauren »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-03-21 07:17pm Not regretting getting Disney+ : finally saw TROS yesterday, watched Falcon and four episodes of this today.

Oddly the 4th episode with Rambeau is where it really gets engrossing. And I'm glad I'm binge watching rather than week on week.

Still I anticipate my cheif complaint being where the heck was Clint, Sam or Rhodey when Wanda dropped off the grid and took over a town. Post-avengimg support and friendships seem non-existent which us sad.
The entire world is more or less in chaos then, even a few weeks later. People not having reported back to work, and the effects of being-deblipped.

You think the chaos in the first 10 minutes we saw in the hospital was bad? Or that we saw in the newsreport at Peters school in Spiderman Homecoming?

Imagine the effects on traffic when people that were blipped out of cars were suddenly blipped back in place on the roads and highways. People that were in surgery suddenly blipping back in, not on machines.

Sam and Rhodey were probably called back to the military to help control the situation.

Also, we saw Clint went right back to his family. Can't say I blame him for not trying to monitor Wanda.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Crazedwraith »

Finished the series, I'm less than impressed with the other Avengers for a) not looking out for Wanda. and B) not protecting Vision's body from abuse in the first place.

Also, did I miss something or do we get absolutely no clue where White Vision went after disengaging?

The stinger of Wanda isn't hopeful. Also I wonder if the Dark Hold stuff lines up continuity wise with it's use in the Ghost Rider season of Agents Of SHIELD. IIRC the last we saw of it was being taken to hell by Ghost Rider, so Agatha could have made a deal for it?
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by LadyTevar »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-03-22 05:37pm Finished the series, I'm less than impressed with the other Avengers for a) not looking out for Wanda. and B) not protecting Vision's body from abuse in the first place.

Also, did I miss something or do we get absolutely no clue where White Vision went after disengaging?

The stinger of Wanda isn't hopeful. Also I wonder if the Dark Hold stuff lines up continuity wise with it's use in the Ghost Rider season of Agents Of SHIELD. IIRC the last we saw of it was being taken to hell by Ghost Rider, so Agatha could have made a deal for it?
No. We have NO IDEA where White Vision went.

Also, the last time the Darkhold was seen was in "Runaways" series, where Morgan le Fay had gotten hold of it to attempt merging The Dark Dimension with Earth (pre-Snap). The Runaways and their parents in PRIDE worked together to bind Morgan le Fay into The Dark Dimension, using a spell *from* the Darkhold. The series synapsis doesn't say what happened to it after that, but presumably Agatha acquired it afterwards.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by FaxModem1 »

One thing I think hurts the ending is that the average townsperson is forgotten about in the final episode. They made the room for it, with Wanda wandering back to the town square where the gazebo is. Wanda has just gone through a traumatic experience, and is ending the Hex upon realization that she's hurting the town of Westview. Now she could, A, take off immediately via red car next to her empty lot, B, fly off immediately and not care about the people she hurt, C, stay there in the lot and just contemplate what just happened over the past couple weeks, processing everything, or D, go and apologize to the town of Westview over what happened, maybe see if she could atone in some way.

For whatever reason, Wanda wanders to the town center, by foot, and after a two minute discussion with Monica(someone who ISN'T from the town and purposely CHOSE to be there), tries to get her off the hook by saying they'll never understand her pain. Wanda then, upon seeing cop cars coming, flies off. This means that Wanda was either going to try to apologize, and like Moe from the Simpsons, chose to say "Cheese it, it's the Feds." and flew off, or she wanted to get some steps in on her Fitbit before running away to master magic as she was originally planning to do, and didn't really care about the people of Westview anyway.

I think this is a mistake on the show's part.

Why not have Kitty(Mrs. Hart) from That 70s Show or Anya(Dottie) from Buffy give a speech or even just some minor dialogue about either accepting her reasons and forgiving her, or saying that there's nothing she can ever do to make up for what she did? Why in a series that chose to point out that all the extras in a TV show are more than just extras, that they're real people who have their own lives, going through their own things and are suffering, are treated like disposable extras in the last five minutes and we should ignore their pain as Monica says we shouldn't worry about them?

The town perspective was given to us, and swiftly taken away.

Also, if Agatha is trapped forever as Agnes, fake home address and everything, does that mean that Ralph Bohner is forced to live with the person who used him as a puppet for weeks? Because that's pretty screwed up.
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Re: WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

Post by Gandalf »

Also, are the people of Westview going to happy with Agnes being about?

I think the more likely outcome is that SHIELD or whoever just takes her away to the Raft.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
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