THOR: Reel and Myth

[LadyTevar]

Yeah, I made a pun.

Anyway, in response to Broomstick's comment in the Thor Movie thread:

But hey, there are already so many deviations from “actual Norse mythology” that it's pointless to get hung up on that one. Though if anyone is interested I could probably hit a few highlights.

I have a few questions on the deviations

Let's start with Odin. From reading stories of the Norse Gods in my youth, I know only the basic info: Odin Allfather, gave up his eye for Wisdom to rule. His ravens Thought and Memory tell him what they've seen in flight, giving him knowledge of the Worlds. He was maker of the Runes of prophesy, but also would walk the world himself at times as an elder in hat and cape, gifting those who showed him courtesy. He is also seen as a schemer, magician, tactician, and womanizer. Loki is called his companion, his blood brother, his fellow prankster.

MARVEL Odin is a god-like Alien, who is immortal but must occasionally rest and revive himself via the "OdinSleep". He wields the "OdinForce", a source of great magic and personal power that rivals not only the other Major Gods, but also Mephisto, Dormammu, Agamotto, and able to casually slap around Thanos and Silver Surfer with ease. His scheming is such that he managed to circumvent Raganok by seting Thor up to destroy those behind the Cycle. Loki is his foster son.


Now, what did I leave out? LOL!

[Batman]

Why does your paragraph on DC Odin (whom I didn't even knew we had) exclusively reference Marvel characters?

[Ahriman238]

Hmm. Well in some versions of the myth, Odin sent out his two ravens to view everythingi n the world and relay it back to him, in others though he sacrificed one eye in his quest for wisdom (whereas, in this movie he clearly lost it in the war with the Frost Giants) he could see anything happening anywhere with his remaining eye. Loki is sometimes Odin's brother, sometimes his son, and is the mother of Hel and Thor's twelve-legged horse Slepnir. Most myths idetify Loki as Odin's son via the Frost Giant Laufey, a few have his father being the Frost Giant, and in at least one he is a wolf's son.

A lot of modern fantasy conventions come from the Germanic/Norse myth tradition, elves, dwarves, dragons etc.

Was there anything specific you'd like to know more about? I can faintly recall a lot of tidbits and a few stories, but it'd probably take a while to write them out into anything resembling a coherent whole.

[The Yosemite Bear]

you forgot Loki's other kids by his wife: Sons Jornmungarm (Midgard Serpent/big bad dragon), and Fenrir (Big Bad Wolf)

[Ahriman238]

Oh, how did I forget to include to Jormundagr? And I honestly didn't know Loki was supposed to be Fenrir's father. Actually, I thought Fenrir would have to be the father in the 'Loki Wolf-son' variant. Mythology is fun! Escpecially when it's not internally consistent, because you can invent whatever you want to fill in the gaps and be considered a Great Author.

[Kingmaker]

Mythology!Thor has red hair and a temper to match.

Odin had a pair of ravens, as well as a pair of wolves. He was also nailed to the world tree for a while as part of his efforts to learn magic. He traded his eye for the ability to see the future. and he has a magic spear that never misses.

Also, Sleipnir is Odin's horse, not Thor's. Thor has a chariot pulled by goats that regenerate each morning, so he can eat them at night so long as he keeps the bones intact (or he might be able to just raise them from the dead--I'm not entirely sure).

[Ahriman238]

Odin and his two brothers, one of which may or may not be Loki, slew the mightiest of giants, Ymir, who's corpse became the earth. The soil and stone beneath our feet made up his flesh in life, the lutting mountains are where his broken bones break through and the freezing seas are where the Ymir's chilling blood has pooled. In at least one version I've heard, Ymir slays Odin's two brothers, but he eats the corpses and thus adds their strength to his own, allowing him victory.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Loki, as near as I can tell, was Odin's blood-brother:

Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days
we mixed our blood together?
You said you would never drink ale
unless it were brought to both of us.

-There is a whole myth about Sif's golden hair, whereas in the comics she has only been drawn with black hair.

-Loki turning evil was a relatively recent thing depending on continuity.

- Ymir is still alive.

-Odin is often drawn with two eyes.

-Balder is more of a warrior than the saintly god loved by all; there is evidence that this aspect of his character came only after Christianity influenced the mythology, but a change is a change.

-Thor's relationship with Sif is portrayed as beginning after he met Jane Foster.

-Heimdall once let a giantess enter Asgard because she was so beautiful. I can't imagine the unearthly being in the movie and the comics to a certain extent doing such a thing.

-Heimdall is often drawn with only a field of stars visible under his helmet. And he has gold teeth in the comic as opposed to gold eyes in the movie.

[Zixinus]

-Heimdall once let a giantess enter Asgard because she was so beautiful. I can't imagine the unearthly being in the movie and the comics to a certain extent doing such a thing.

He could if the giantess was something else than just beautiful.

[Broomstick]

Let's start with Odin. From reading stories of the Norse Gods in my youth, I know only the basic info: Odin Allfather, gave up his eye for Wisdom to rule.

He traded his eye for wisdom, for a drink from Mimir's well at the foot of Yggdrasil. Odin got a drink of wisdom and Mimir put Odin's eye in the well for, if I recall, scrying purposes. Mimir later wound up losing his head and Odin preserved the head using [magic technobabble] so he could speak with the head and benefit from Mimir's wisdom.

There's some really creepy shit in Norse mythology. Also in old Norse practices as well, but maybe more on that later.

He was maker of the Runes of prophesy, but also would walk the world himself at times as an elder in hat and cape, gifting those who showed him courtesy. He is also seen as a schemer, magician, tactician, and womanizer.

It's usually expressed as he discovered the runes of prophecy rather than create them. He hung himself on Yggdrasil for nine days and nine nights until, basically, he had a hallucination vision of the runes and their meaning. For this reason Odin is occasionally called "the Hanged God", and it was hung by the neck, not artfully tied up or in some weird conflation with Christ on the cross as you sometimes see illustrated. It's also why he's associated with the Tarot trump the hanged man. It is also why, in the old days, sacrifices to Odin were hung from trees. I can understand how they hung people up by the neck, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they did the same to horses, but they did.

Uh... yeah, creepy shit in practice, too. Bet you won't see that in a Marvel comic or movie.

Loki is called his companion, his blood brother, his fellow prankster.

Ah - you know Odin is a prankster, too! A lot of people miss that. In addition to be a god of death, war, victory, wisdom, poetry, magic, and prophecy he's also a trickster. Probably the most concise rendition of this is in the Lokasenna where Loki crashes a party and starts accusing everyone, but particularly Odin, of various improprieties including not only cross-dressing as a woman but bearing children (not exactly OK for a manly god in a warrior culture) and going about as a fortune-teller, that sort of gender bending and doings more in line with a trickster god than some godly leader of warriors.

Loki, in the old stories, isn't so much a bad guy as a catalyst - he's what makes things happen and is responsible for a lot of invention (fishing nets, among other things) and both helps and harms. He is actually a Jotun, some of which were described as fair as the Aesir, whom Odin met and befriend and the two became blood brothers. In the old myths Loki was never Odin's son, I've only ever seen that in Marvel comics and things that came after. Loki is the son of Laufey and the giant Farbauti, which if you delve into the symbolism of names and myth basically means Loki is the wildfire that's arises when lightning (Farbauti) hits a pine tree (Laufey) - and we've heard that fire is a good servant and a poor master, right? Both useful/creative and destructive, which is what Loki is. By the way - in the myths Loki is a redhead, and Laufey is his mother, not his father as in Marvel.

[Broomstick]

you forgot Loki's other kids by his wife: Sons Jornmungarm (Midgard Serpent/big bad dragon), and Fenrir (Big Bad Wolf)

Oh, how did I forget to include to Jormundagr? And I honestly didn't know Loki was supposed to be Fenrir's father. Actually, I thought Fenrir would have to be the father in the 'Loki Wolf-son' variant. Mythology is fun! Escpecially when it's not internally consistent, because you can invent whatever you want to fill in the gaps and be considered a Great Author.

Loki had two wives, one Jotun and one Aesir. By his Jotun wife Angrboda (whose name means "bringer of anger" - oh, yeah, good combination with the personification of fire, right?) Loki was father of Hel (ruler of the underworld), Fenrir (who bit off the hand of Tyr and who is destined to kill Odin at Ragnarok), and Jormungandr the World Serpent. By his Aesir wife Sigyn he had Narfi (whose son is the personification of night), whose guts are used to bind Loki until Ragnarok when the Aesir finally get fed up with his antics and decide he's more trouble than he's worth. They weren't allowed to kill Loki because he's Odin's blood brother, you see, so they just tie him up with bits of one of his kids and have a serpent drip corrosive poison on his head forever. That creepy stuff again. Sigyn, who apparently still holds some affection or loyalty for Loki, stands over him and catches the venom in a bowl before it falls on Loki, but the bowl eventually fills up and she has to go empty it, at which point the venom falls on Loki. Loki then thrashes and squirms in his bonds, and that's why we have earthquakes. Given recent events in the world, I propose we take up a collection for Sigyn to get a bigger bowl. And finally, Loki is the mother of Sleipnir, and how that came about is one of my favorite Norse myths though I don't expect to see that in a Marvel movie, either. In the Lokasenna Odin's reply to Loki's list of his scandalous deeds is basically "Oh, yeah? You're the mother of my horse."

[Broomstick]

Odin had a pair of ravens, as well as a pair of wolves. He was also nailed to the world tree for a while as part of his efforts to learn magic.

Nope - he was hung, not nailed. The nailing bit was a later conflation with Christianity and Jesus.

He traded his eye for the ability to see the future. and he has a magic spear that never misses.

The spear also chooses the victor in battle.

In the Dresden Files novel Changes Odin and his spear make a cameo during the final epic battle where Dresden and Company win against impossibly long odds - well, of course, Odin chooses the victor. It's kinda quick, though, so people frequently miss it.

Thor has a chariot pulled by goats that regenerate each morning, so he can eat them at night so long as he keeps the bones intact (or he might be able to just raise them from the dead--I'm not entirely sure).

You can eat the goats entirely but the bones must be undamaged. Once Thor and bunch of other folks had them as a snack and someone cracked a leg bone. When said goat was revived it was lame - Thor was Not Happy. Don't make Thor angry, you wouldn't like him when he's angry.... THOR SMASH! Anyhow, basically Thor would pile up the skins and bones and any leftovers and wave mjolnir over them to bring them back to life.

Edit: damn spelling errors! Need more caffeine.

[Broomstick]

Odin and his two brothers, one of which may or may not be Loki, slew the mightiest of giants, Ymir, who's corpse became the earth.

Nope, not Loki. The two brothers of Odin in that story were Hoenir and Lodunn

The three were the sons of Borr, who the myths don't really mention beyond being the father of those three, and Bestla, either a daughter or granddaughter of Jotuns. So Odin is also part Jotun, which, really, wasn't that peculiar in the old myths, a lot gods seemed to be part Jotun. Although Jotun and Aesir were in constant conflict they were also relatives, which goes a long way to explaining why they sometimes cooperated as well. Bestla might also be the sister of Mimir, meaning Mimir is the maternal uncle of Odin, in which case Mimir got his nephew's eye and Odin keeps the pickled talking head of his uncle around for advice. Those whacky Norse gods!

[Elheru Aran]

Just a quick note about the typo of "DC Odin"-- there *is* an Odin in DC, see Sandman. Thor and Loki also; Thor is notably red-haired and stupid in DC, and Mjolnir isn't all that big either. Odin is appropriately wise and could pass for an old man with a big hat and one eye, though, rather unlike Marvel Odin, who could pass for... an old man with fancy armour, a big ol' fancy hat, and a gold eyepatch

[Skgoa]

Didn't Loki marry a giant once? Or was that Thor?

[Broomstick]

Loki's wife Angrboda was a Jotun, and the "frost giants" were part of that crowd so she may or may not have been one.

There was an incident where Thor's hammer was stolen and the Jotun Thrymr who had it would give it back only under condition he could have Freya in marriage. Loki and Heimdall contrive a deception where Thor is dressed in drag as for a wedding and off to Thymr's they go, Thor in a wedding dress and Loki disguised as a maid. When the "bride" is handed Mjolnir to seal the deal Thor winds up killing all the Jotun wedding guests. So no, Thor never married a Jotun, but there is a myth about him being a bride of a Jotun.

[Johonebesus]

Wotan was originally a god of death and wisdom. The Romans associated him with Mercury and Hermes. In all likelihood he was not originally the king of the gods. Even Snorri stated that some traditions had Thor as the All Father, and Snorri believed them, but the most recent and well remembered tales had Odin as the king of heaven.

Woden was a powerful but dangerous god to worship. He was very fickle. If he was invoked before a battle one of the armies would be slaughtered to the last man, but he would be just as likely to take those who called him as their enemies. He was not known for a sense of justice or honor. As a god of death, he eventually took over some of the function of Tiwaz, whom the Romans equated with Mars. Tiwaz gradually lost significance. He may have once been the chief god, if his name was in fact related to deus/theos/zeus. He was still remembered as a great warrior, and the t-rune was named for him and interpreted as a spear, but Tiw's role in both the myths and actual worship was greatly reduced.

In later myths Woden seems to be influenced by Siberian Shamanism. As Broomstick mentioned he hung himself from the World Tree, as a sacrifice of himself to himself. He inflicted upon himself a triple death: stabbing with his spear, strangulation with the noose, and falling. His dead corpse hung for several days until he came back to life with transcendent wisdom.

Of course, always remember that the myths were just a part of what pagan gods were. For most Greeks, Zeus wasn't the king of the gods or the great shape-shifting rapist; he was the sky and the storm. A huge bank of thunderclouds rolling across the sky wasn't sent by Zeus or controlled by Zeus, it was Zeus. Similarly, Woden was an object of worship, not a character in stories. He was evidently worshipped primarily as a psychopomp and a source of knowledge, both arcane wisdom and sudden inspiration. Thor was Father Sky, like Zeus, worshipped for good weather and proper amounts of rain, and for wisdom, justice and strength.

Furthermore, most of the Germanic myths come from the two Eddas, medieval Icelandic works written shortly after Christianization. Thus what we have is only the last glimpse of an ancient body of myth. Sadly there was no Germanic Homer or Hesiod or even Sophocles. The Odin described by Snorri likely bears only a small resemblance to the Wotan worshipped by the contemporaries of Cicero and Caesar.

Loki is harder to understand, as there is little evidence of his actual worship. Woden, Thor, Freyr and Freya known from ancient sources, but Loki is almost unknown outside of the Eddas. He might actually be a creation of the stories, or an amalgamation of older gods or aspects of gods. Some theories link him with Woden: as Woden was elevated to the Allfather, some of his more nasty elements might have been spun off into Loki. If he did evolve from an ancient god, his original version evidently wasn't very important.

[LadyTevar]

One day I would like to hear of the birth of Sleipnir.

As for the DC/Marvel screwup, I blame my headcold.

As for Loki and Odin as blood brothers, was it Ale or Wine that was always to be shared with Loki (by tossing a cupful into the fire)?

[Broomstick]

Pretty much anything fermented.

[Ahriman238]

One day I would like to hear of the birth of Sleipnir.

As for the DC/Marvel screwup, I blame my headcold.

As for Loki and Odin as blood brothers, was it Ale or Wine that was always to be shared with Loki (by tossing a cupful into the fire)?

shapeshifting trickster god. What more do you want to know?

Well, I've studied the myths in a sort of indifferent way, mostly inspired by the book of stories my parents would read from that had like, four Norse Myths, including the murder of Baldur, Siegfried and the Ring of Fire, a kind of pointless tale about Loki being a weasel who gets the gods into and out of a whole lot of trouble, and this one:

A long, long time ago, the restless young gods Thor, Loki and Thafi decided to leave Asgard and adventure for a time. They came down the Bifrost bridge, but in Midgard (earth) they met a Jotun who sneered at their godly might and dared them to follow him to Jotunheim to prove themselves.

The Jotuns all laughed at the young gods, until their king asked each god what they were good at. Loki boasted that he could eat faster than any man, beast, or god and so wound up in an eating contest against the Jotun's champion, Logi. A great trough was set between them and filled with meat, each would eat his way to the center. They reached the center at the same time, but Logi won because Loki had eaten only the meat, while Logi had consumed the meat, bones and the trough. Thafi, who was the swiftest of the gods, then lost a footrace.

Thor then said that he could drink more than any being. So the Jotun king offered Thor his drinking horn. Thor gulped down prodigous amounts, but after three draughts had only drained it halfway. The Jotun King then offered Thor a wrestling contest... with a feeble old woman. Though Thor at first refused to fight, she leapt at him and he defended himself. Try as he might, the woman slipped from his grasp time and again, and eventually threw him to the ground. As a final contest, the Jotun king challenged Thor to pick up his cat. A game, the Jotun king assured him, that all the youngest Jotun children played. Thor struggled and strained, but could not do more than lift a single paw from the ground.

Abased, but still noble, Thor and his companions concede defeat and prepare to take their leave. Moved by this show of humility, the Jotun king confesses that they had been using magic to cheat the whole time. Logi the Giant was actually Fire, which no man can beat in an eating contest. Thafi's opponent was Thought, nothing is faster than Thought, and the old crone who wrestled Thor was Age, which overcomes all men eventually, no matter how hard they struggle. The drinking horn was magically linked to the ocean, and Thor had drank countless rivers and lakes dry, and made the ocean itself sink low. Finally, the king admitted, he didn't have a cat. It was the disguised serpent Jormundr, who encircles the world, and Thor had lifted the snake so high it nearly touched the heavens. "How terrified my Jotuns were when we saw you lift that mighty paw! So hang not your heads in shame, it was magic that overcame you, and if we contested again we would have to use magic."

And Thor, Loki, and Thafi returned to Asgard. As sure of their strength as before, but far more humble about it.

The End.

[Broomstick]

One day I would like to hear of the birth of Sleipnir.

In the early days of Asgard the Aesir desired that a strong wall and fortification be built around Asgard, to defend against war and invasion. A builder is contracted, but in return for his labors he wants the sun, the moon, and Freya for his own. The gods are dubious (to say the least) but insist that he complete the work in three seasons and be helped by no man, reasoning that he couldn't possibly complete the work under such conditions. The builder agrees provided he could use the assistance of his stallion, Svadilfari. Some of the Aesir are still dubious, but Loki convinces them that there was no way, even with the help of a stallion, the builder can complete the walls within the allotted time. The gods agreed and the bargain was struck.

Well, as it happens both the builder and the horse are amazingly good at hauling rocks and building and the walls go up rapidly. With three days before the deadline for completion and only the gate remaining to be done it occurs to the Aesir they may have to pay up. They grab Loki and threaten him with horrific pain and/or death if he doesn't figure out a way to get out of the deal because it's all his fault (somehow). That night, when the builder takes his horse out to get more stone for the building a mare in heat runs out of the woods, flirts with the stallion, then runs off. The stallion, being a stallion, breaks free of his harness and runs after the mare. Due to this interruption and delay in the work the builder is unable to complete the work and forfeits his payment. Except he doesn't want to. He goes to the place the gate is to be, turns into a Frost Giant, and looks to start the "SMASH! SMASH! RAR!" routine. At that point Thor shows up, smites him mightily with his hammer, and staves in his skull.

Better yet, from the Aesir viewpoint, that troublemaker Loki also is missing.

For awhile.

Some months later, Loki walks out of the forest leading this funky 8-legged colt. By that time the walls of Asgard are finished, the Aesir are no longer pissed off at Loki, and no one inquires (at that point) about the parentage of the horse, which is named Sleipnir and given to Odin.

But everyone knows who the horse's mom and dad are, which is why, as I mentioned, during the Lokasenna after Loki listing Odin's peccadilloes and scandals Odin's reply is basically "Oh, yeah? You're the mother of my horse."

By the way - remember Odin is a death god and psychopomp (along with some help from the Valkyries). In some traditions "the eight legged horse" is a reference to the pallbearers at a funeral. Remember, too, that Loki is the father of Hel, Queen of the Underworld/Afterlife. This is all creepily related.

[LadyTevar]

Odin Glory-Singer, War-Bringer, Gallows-Reaper

[Skgoa]

What I find most fascinating about this thread is how distinctly different some of the details are between the different oral traditions. E.g. I had never heard the term "Jotun" before watching the recent Thor movie. They are simply refered to as giants in all stories I had heard/read. Jotunheim is - consequently - not called that but Utgard ("Outland") and the frost giants* live in Niflheim. Also, several goods are children of giants and thats no big deal.

* that seems what the Jotuns are depicted as being in the movie

There was an incident where Thor's hammer was stolen and the Jotun Thrymr who had it would give it back only under condition he could have Freya in marriage. Loki and Heimdall contrive a deception where Thor is dressed in drag as for a wedding and off to Thymr's they go, Thor in a wedding dress and Loki disguised as a maid. When the "bride" is handed Mjolnir to seal the deal Thor winds up killing all the Jotun wedding guests. So no, Thor never married a Jotun, but there is a myth about him being a bride of a Jotun.

Yes, thats the one I meant.

[mr friendly guy]

It's usually expressed as he discovered the runes of prophecy rather than create them. He hung himself on Yggdrasil for nine days and nine nights until, basically, he had a hallucination vision of the runes and their meaning. For this reason Odin is occasionally called "the Hanged God", and it was hung by the neck, not artfully tied up or in some weird conflation with Christ on the cross as you sometimes see illustrated. It's also why he's associated with the Tarot trump the hanged man. It is also why, in the old days, sacrifices to Odin were hung from trees. I can understand how they hung people up by the neck, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they did the same to horses, but they did.

Uh... yeah, creepy shit in practice, too. Bet you won't see that in a Marvel comic or movie

Flashback art showing Odin hanging himself was shown in Thor #300. Gaea (yes the Earth goddess) talked him out of his folly and he got off (hey this is Marvel comics).

Thor of course in the awesome Avengers Disassembled storyline did the same thing and hung himself to the point when he became emaciated and Hel Hela was about to take him, but Odin's spirit saved him. Thor also one up Odin and sacrificed both his eyes to the Well of Wisdom. Then he became wank Thor with the power to destroy Magog with a single mystical rune. Then JMS happened and got rid of it.

[Molyneux]

The drinking horn was magically linked to the ocean, and Thor had drank countless rivers and lakes dry, and made the ocean itself sink low.

Note that this is also a pretty nifty mythological justification for the tides.